Pro 12, becoming a serously good league?

First topic message reminder :

Comparing the Pro 12 at its begingings to as it is now, I think that we have possality of having the best League in the world.

Back when it was formed we had the problem of regionalisation, and 2 sides folding. The sides have now bedded in, and two Italian sides have joined.

Munster, Leinster and Ulster are all strong teams, Connacht are improving and I think some teams still underestimate them.

Ospreys are rebuilding but still strong, Blues will need to but should stay competative, Scarlets already have and are looking to be really good in a few years if they carry on the upward curve, Dragons are losing their best players and look to be going backwards.

Glasgow and Edinburgh are now under a new SRU control and are getting better, in playoff spot and Hcup Qfinal, things look better for next year.

Teviso and Aironi are improving, Teviso more so, and are becoming a mid table side and could improve, Aironi have a way to go yet.

With so many teams improving teams have to run to standstill. Of the top 10 teams in Europe more than a third (3 leagues so a 1/3 each would be an even distrubtion) are in the Pro 12.

However some of the same problems still arise that we had at the beginging.

Regions, we could write a book of this.
Distance apart, you get fewer away fans at games outside your domestic country, but this is being largly offsest by the teams growning and attracting more home supporters, I don't believe it's the same problem as it was.
Lack of rivalries outside domestic derbies, I think these are beginging to start, Munster v Ospreys, Ulster v Scarlets are some, but could do with more to add more spice.
No relegration, I actually think no relegration is good, it works for Super rugby, and allows long term planning.
H-cup entry, this is an issue, you need to have representives from each country, but Italy and Scotland getting two Automatic entries and Ireland and Wales 3. I feel that this could be improved. I still see it as every county would get at least one entry, (won't go into this on this thread).
Money, the TV deals and sponsorship are still a long way of the equilivent leagues in England and France, we need to improve on this to get up to an Equal footing in terms of spending power.


What are your thoughts?
If the WRU change the regions could it upset the league?
Could rivalries be built up more?
Could sponsorship and TV money be better?

On thing I belive that could improve it would be if newpapers cover the entire League, alot of Irish papers will only write up about games an Irish team is playing in, your hard pushed to see a write up of a Welsh or Scottish game, and no chance if its an Italian derby. I'm sure its the same in Wales and Scotland, only games that involve a domestic team get a mention. For me the Newpapers need to cover the entire league, not just local teams, to generate more intrest in the table and how other teams are going.

Thoughts?

The regions are.

It was the O's/Scarlets derby before the first round of HEC.

boxing day was Scarlets/O's and new years as Dragons/Scarlet (and the Blus and O's played as well I think).

And with regards to your first question. Tis a 10 min train journey between Cardiff and Newport, then about a 5 min work to get from the newport train station to Rodney Parade. That one's no hardship at all for evening kick offs.

If you are a Scarlet fan though and living in Cardiff (like myself and I know of many, many others), trying to get to and from Llanelli for an evening KO, especially on a Thurs or Fri, is nigh on impossible.

A combined highlights show, a la match of the day would be great, showing all teh games in the league. The prob would be that SC4 would want some of it in Welsh, alba in Scottish Gaelic and if TG4 do it Gaelic. I'd propose the main show be in English and the highlights of the games Irish, English, Welsh and Scottish commentry are all available on red button, users decides which he wants.

I'd really want to watch that programme as seeing other teams in the league is dificult and I'd be intrested in seeing some of their players.

Sounds like the O's and Scarlets are being a little smart alright.
Does Cardiff get screwed over by ground sharing with the soccer? Does that work?

Well Scrum V and Y Clwb Rygbi do show highlights of the other league games not involving Welsh sides (just the actual points scored etc) but it's not indepth at all. But then it's catered for a Welsh audience so wouldn't be. Something to look at though. I know next to nothing about the non international Scottish and Italian players, but know a bit more about the Irish ones. Certainly would make more sense to have more comprehensive coverage.

I wish Sky or Espn would buy the rights. Scrum V and SC4 are run so badly

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Sounds like the O's and Scarlets are being a little smart alright.
Does Cardiff get screwed over by ground sharing with the soccer? Does that work?

I'm pretty sure that whenever the O's and Scarlets play each other, the Blus and Dragons are then playing each other also (although I know one of their derby's got called off because of crazy weather). The derby matches are usually always well organised and brilliantly attended, tis just trying to get the same interest when the Welsh sides play non Welsh teams!

Both the Blues and O's have difficulty sometimes in securing their fixture lists quickly enough due to both of them ground sharing. Actually think the O's have a bigger problem with this as Swansea are playing in the premiership. It certainly doesn't add to the ease of arranging max fixtures with decent KO times anyways!

really? I quite like the rugby shows on S4C gowales, they're usually much better than Scrum V. And Cwpan Heineken and their International coverage is excellent. Well, for those who understand Welsh anyways

Kingshu wrote:A combined highlights show, a la match of the day would be great, showing all teh games in the league. The prob would be that SC4 would want some of it in Welsh, alba in Scottish Gaelic and if TG4 do it Gaelic. I'd propose the main show be in English and the highlights of the games Irish, English, Welsh and Scottish commentry are all available on red button, users decides which he wants.

I'd really want to watch that programme as seeing other teams in the league is dificult and I'd be intrested in seeing some of their players.

If they want to up the language content, the highlights program could leave a 5-10 minute slot for each station to put the local teams update/interview. The commentary could be red button, each station could also be given a prep'd highlight reel that they could dub their own highlight punditry over.

None of the stations have enough games to warrant them spending the money on a full highlights program, but surely a little cuteness on putting one together between the couple of stations could do the trick. Even if each station did a 3-4 minute highlight summary of any game that they record/broadcast and share them between the stations would be a start (and a cheap enough move).

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Does Cardiff get screwed over by ground sharing with the soccer? Does that work?

Don't get me started.

rugbydreamer wrote:

If you are a Scarlet fan though and living in Cardiff (like myself and I know of many, many others), trying to get to and from Llanelli for an evening KO, especially on a Thurs or Fri, is nigh on impossible.

I went to a Sunday game not that many years ago and while waiting at a train station just outside Cardiff, we wondered why there was nobody else on the platform.
No trains on a Sunday.
Had to get a taxi in the end.

Ah yes the delightful Sunday train service. Have had the same happen to me before Dave.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
Why aren't Ospreys/Blues or Blues/Scarlets aligning their clashes to similar weekends and it could be billed out as a tv double header the week before HC starts on BBC/RTE/TG4 or whichever (you could easily advertise a Blues/Scarlets followed by Munster/Leinster back to back the week before HC quarter finals).

I believe an all Welsh double header was planned for the MS this season, but one side wasn't happy. Don't know the reason why or who it was, but I reckon it will happen next season.

Can't see many people going to it though. They'd be lucky to get 30,000

I think it would be a terrible idea to have it in the MS. Talk about the missed revenue opportunities and giving up home advantage.

gowales wrote:Can't see many people going to it though. They'd be lucky to get 30,000

Go,

I reckon they would but at worst I record we should give it a go.

I have been lucky enough to go to the London double header at the start of the English season and its a fantastic day out.

I think we should try arrange one around St Davids day but only prob with that is it falls in the 6 Natuons windon so lot of the top players would be away from Regions

I agree with the Thursday night issue. Rugby isn't big enough to deal with Thursday night matches.

Friday matches are surprisingly popular and Saturday at 18.00 isn't a bad time. It could allow a local club to play at 14.00 and make it to the game.

Yet most people in Wales dislike night time kick offs. If they switched them to 2-2:30 kick offs im pretty sure Welsh attendances would rise.

rugbydreamer wrote:
All the regions are going to have to look at different ways to market their product to get more people through the gates.

I absolutely agree and I don't believe there is a one size fits all solution.

Ospreys and Blues need proper, smaller rugby stadiums. So do Edinburgh actually. Are Glasgow fans happy with Firhill?

I also wish Leinster had their own stadium. There's no problem with attendances or atmosphere at the RDS. But renting a ground drains more money in the long run.

rugbydreamer wrote:I think it would be a terrible idea to have it in the MS. Talk about the missed revenue opportunities and giving up home advantage.

rugby,

I am sure a deal could be done so that the 'home' side got maybe extra of the tv or gate reciept to compensate and it would only be one home fisture they would lose out on.

If one of the sides were the Blues then as most fans hate the long trek they have to make to the CCS it would be better for them.

rugbydreamer wrote:I think it would be a terrible idea to have it in the MS. Talk about the missed revenue opportunities and giving up home advantage.

That is a very, VERY valid point that some on here don't seem to understand when they advocate moving games around a region.

gowales wrote:Yet most people in Wales dislike night time kick offs. If they switched them to 2-2:30 kick offs im pretty sure Welsh attendances would rise.

Problem with saturday afternoon kick offs is it would clash with the Semi Pro league and fans would then definately have split loyalties as to who to support, Region or locla club.

With evening or Sunday afternoon kick offs you can the support your local club and your Region, also those involved actually playing for local clubs can do both.

Yet the attendances are stil poor now and no one is interested anyway. People like watching rugby on a Sat afternoon and its always been that way. Id like to see them at least try some Welsh derbys.

Thats what I'd have thought Bedford.

Gowales - its funny how people have different views on matches.

Personally I don't like Heieneken Cup matches in Thomond Park when it is bright. It must be dark.

I know for Ulster fans also they seem to have Friday night as their favourite time to play.

I'd say ideal KO time in Wales would be between 5 and 7pm on a Saturday.

Time for the local clubs to play their games and still make their way to one of the regions to watch a match.

My preferred time however is 3pm on a Sat. Perfect time for me to get to and from Y Parc. Drinks before the match, drinks after the match and still no fear of me missing a train home. Perfect.

Where are these local club supporters now? They don't seem to be turning up even with these late kick offs

bedfordwelsh wrote:

If one of the sides were the Blues then as most fans hate the long trek they have to make to the CCS it would be better for them.

There's a free bus service from the city centre to CCS.

My preferred kick off time is 17.00

As rugbydreamer say price isn't the main reason - I know the Blues do loads of different offers and sometimes even give away tickets for free - the other regions do similar things but these don't effect the attendances overly - conversly the Scarlets attendances have increased quite a bit since they've introduced the training barn/'supporters village' and things like TV's in the concourse (so you can watch other rugby/football games before the Scarlets game), bars open earlier, a feel good factor generated by attractive rugby (even when we loose), exciting youngsters and things like the Heart and Soul marketing.

This has generated that hallowed feel good factor and casual fans want to experience it as well.

But great ideas have been listed in this thread and the many others on the subject such as the much needed improvements in public transport so you can get to/from games, better kick off times/days (as dreamer says, perfect time for home games against Scottish teams when the international team is in Cardiff), better organised and markerted region-run coaches to other towns in the region, and other promotions.

But IMO the 2 main reasons that effect the attendances and feeling about the league is the structure of the league - there needs to be blocks where the league games are played - then you have a set block for HEC games together then Int games and LV games together, then the league again then another block of HEC, then int's and so on. Then there should be planned times within the league blocks for derbies (such as at Christmas and before the play-offs) and maybe if the 6N's starts with say Wales vs Scotland (or Ireland Vs Italy/Scotland) then the last games of the league block should include Scottish teams coming to Wales

gowales - the local club supporters aren't even turning out to support their local clubs, let alone making it to a regional match. Apathy my friend, of the Welsh fan, reigns supreme at the moment.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ospreys and Blues need proper, smaller rugby stadiums. So do Edinburgh actually. Are Glasgow fans happy with Firhill?

I also wish Leinster had their own stadium. There's no problem with attendances or atmosphere at the RDS. But renting a ground drains more money in the long run.

The Ospreys have realised this to a small extent, playing the LV games at my local ground the Brewery field. The atmosphere is hundred times beter than the liberty. I've been a season holder twice for the Ospreys, never enjoyed watching rugby there

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ospreys and Blues need proper, smaller rugby stadiums. So do Edinburgh actually. Are Glasgow fans happy with Firhill?

I also wish Leinster had their own stadium. There's no problem with attendances or atmosphere at the RDS. But renting a ground drains more money in the long run.

Cardiff Blues have been renting both CCS and CAP for 3 seasons now.
Hopefully it will only be one next season.

If the Blues do end up moving back the CAP they better do some refurbishing. Its practically falling apart at the moment. Maybe they could then fill in Clanmor's gap in the M Stad.

BridgendBoyo wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Ospreys and Blues need proper, smaller rugby stadiums. So do Edinburgh actually. Are Glasgow fans happy with Firhill?

I also wish Leinster had their own stadium. There's no problem with attendances or atmosphere at the RDS. But renting a ground drains more money in the long run.

The Ospreys have realised this to a small extent, playing the LV games at my local ground the Brewery field. The atmosphere is hundred times beter than the liberty. I've been a season holder twice for the Ospreys, never enjoyed watching rugby there

Glasgow are moving to Scotstoun stadium next season, capacity 5000, should generate a good atmosphere.
Blues maybe back to Arms park, but the money needed to bring it up to standard, can they afford it?
Edinburgh haven't anywhere to go, but the temp stands on a murryfield training pitch did sound like a promising short term solution.
Scarlets have to stat filling theirs more.

Kingshu - we're 10% up on last seasons attendances, and might well soon be averaging 9,000 for this season (this may be scuppered as we have some Thursday night matches coming up soon). We're not doing too badly. Even if we don't make the 9K mark this season, we should start doing so next season hopefully.

Winning something this season, even if it's the LV, would be a huge help in this.

I wasn't being bad about Scarlets, it's just with a 15000 seater stadium, you need to be averaging about 12000 prob to create a good atmosphere, Edinburgh will never create a good atmosphere in murryfield
Glasgow will be good to see next season,, the half empty stadiums look bad on tv, I recon if they showed filled stadiums people would think it looked like more fun to attend.
We need the PDC Darts guy getting the stadiums filled.

Attendances so far this year (for whatr could be described as the 2nd Tier of Pro 12 team - attendance wise)

Scarlets - 9542
Ulster - 8282
Blues - 7567
Ospreys - 7146

This includes HC games. The biggest difference between Scarlets and Ulster was not so much the average but the fact Scarlets have had 2 big crowds at the 13,000 + 14,000 + whereas Ulster had 2 crowds (Munster and Leicester) that could have been far bigger than the 11,900 capacity. Good illustration why we need to grow to the 18,000 capacity

But Kingshu, it takes time to increase support as long as it's increasing year on year then it's good as you know in around 5 years you should (as long as your marketing and customer relations is good) be around the 13/14k mark.

Hopefully the Blues will take most of their smaller games to the CAP and then generate enough interest so when a big game (ie Derbies and HEC) come along then they can get a very good crowd (around 14k+) in the CCS, and keep a lot of these fans coming back for more.

Nice figures Geoff - and demonstrates why we need a bigger stadium as those Munster and Ospreys games were great - just maybe we should have waiting another season or 2 before moving to PyS - but if we can build on these attendances next year and get to the 10,000 attendance mark then there should be a really good atmosphere.

Also hoping this season is just a blip for Ospreys and now that Johnson and Holley have gone that the team will play a decent brand of rugby and the crowds will get back up to the 9/10k mark

gowales wrote:If the Blues do end up moving back the CAP they better do some refurbishing. Its practically falling apart at the moment. Maybe they could then fill in Clanmor's gap in the M Stad.

Not quite "falling apart", but it definitely needs improvements which has been the case for 10-12 years or even longer than that. Toilet facilities in a couple of areas are poor to say the least and if it wasn't for a handful of supporters who offered their time and labour free of charge a while back, these facilities would be worse than they are now. Why those in charge didn't get these things sorted beforehand is beyond me.

Glanmor's Gap would cost a fortune to finish off (£30m i've heard as a ball park figure) and would gain very little other than a few extra seats and a bit more hospitality. The recent Wales v Scotland game had 1400 empty spots, therefore no point adding more if they can't fill the ones they already have. So I don't think the WRU are interested actually and remember they still have a huge debt to service. Saying that anything could happen and this is Welsh rugby. Never a dull moment.

Kingshu wrote:I wasn't being bad about Scarlets, it's just with a 15000 seater stadium, you need to be averaging about 12000 prob to create a good atmosphere, Edinburgh will never create a good atmosphere in murryfield
Glasgow will be good to see next season,, the half empty stadiums look bad on tv, I recon if they showed filled stadiums people would think it looked like more fun to attend.
We need the PDC Darts guy getting the stadiums filled.

I do sometimes think that the stand opposite the main camera should be the priority to fill as the TV shows it straight away. Too many times a stadium (and I'm talking in general here) has one very good stand which has the commentators and tv cameras located in it. The opposite stand is usually a little older. But the club pushes to fill the new stand and leave the slightly older one practically empty. Even if they just move the camera to the other side and shoot the match from that side, the stands look better, the crowd looks bigger, someone watching from home or the pub who is entertained by the game will be more inclined to show up at the next game.

Cardiff Dave Do you know how much work it would need to get the CAP back up to capacity - as I heard it was because of H&S issues that they only allowed 8,000 in for the Connacht game and 9,000 for the up and coming Ulster game.

If it'll cost a lot then I doubt there'll be any chance of the Blues moving back there permanently.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Cardiff Dave Do you know how much work it would need to get the CAP back up to capacity - as I heard it was because of H&S issues that they only allowed 8,000 in for the Connacht game and 9,000 for the up and coming Ulster game.

If it'll cost a lot then I doubt there'll be any chance of the Blues moving back there permanently.

On the CAP, who owns it? Would the Blues have to pay rent?

The point about Scarlets is average 9000 in a 15000 seater is only 60% capacity, where as Ulster is 70% capacity, I'd say Ulsters average is better for league games.

even Glasgow with an average of 4000 next year will look good as its 80% of capacity.

the higher % of capacity the better the product looks and atmosphere, thereby hopefully bringing new fans in who enjoy it and come back,

I wonder for Scarlets how many fans went when they first moved and didn't like the atmostphere and have't been back, it left a bad impression with them and it'll take time to change their minds thats the matchday experience has improved.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Cardiff Dave Do you know how much work it would need to get the CAP back up to capacity - as I heard it was because of H&S issues that they only allowed 8,000 in for the Connacht game and 9,000 for the up and coming Ulster game.

If it'll cost a lot then I doubt there'll be any chance of the Blues moving back there permanently.

Currently, the official capacity of CAP is 12,500.
Not that long ago it was nearer 14,000, so the reduction must be down to the changes in H&S over the years.
The recently reduced capacity is due to ground access from the main road I believe and nothing to do with the ground itself.

They can't afford CCS smirnhoff. They need to get out of the deal asap.

But Kingshu - at least now we can say "look for the big games (such as Munster/Ospreys) we're going to get 80/90% attendance so that should encourage the casual fan (or any fans who didn't enjoy the atmosphere) to come back for these games and maybe come back for more games (such as the HEC or other derby games) and then slowly the attendance will increase for the other games. (at least I hope)

Also I will say that the atmosphere is quite good in the stadium, even with the end stands (East and West) empty - especially with the barn and the Pemberton Pub before/after the game

On the plus side Cardiff Dave - I'd imagine that if the Blues wanted out of their 20 year deal in the next few seasons then I can't imagine Cardiff FC complaining as they want the stadium for themselves, especially if they're in the Premiership - and you'd think the council wouldn't really be bothered as long as someone's giving them money.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Cardiff Dave Do you know how much work it would need to get the CAP back up to capacity - as I heard it was because of H&S issues that they only allowed 8,000 in for the Connacht game and 9,000 for the up and coming Ulster game.

If it'll cost a lot then I doubt there'll be any chance of the Blues moving back there permanently.

On the CAP, who owns it? Would the Blues have to pay rent?

Cardiff Athletic Club (CAC) own CAP and Cardiff Blues (or rather the club that owns them) pay the rent which is £98k pa which they have continued to pay all the while they have been at CCS.

Also forgot to say - if the reduction is due to ground access then they're not going to be able to get more than 10,000 in the stadium as there's only 2 access points - both on Westgate St. Might be a problem in the future, as no matter if they do up the stadium, they can't do much about the access points.

Unless there's something I haven't considered