Will the Irish provinces suffer a players exodus?

First topic message reminder :

Whether it is a "development" league or not, the Celtic League has been able to provide the Irish provinces with a continuing supply of players. The induction of guys like Sean O'Brien, Keith Earls, Cian Healy, Peter O'Mahony and Craig Gilroy has been almost seamless and we are beginning to see strenght in depth and whats more Irish strenght in depth.

In one of Munster's pool stage matches in the Heineken Cup this season the bench included Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Denis Leamy and Tomas O'Leary. Not so long ago that was a third of Irelands national team.

We are now at a stage where (despite reports of an "aging" team) most of Irelands internationals are in their mid 20s with even younger guys champing at the bit for selection in both provinces and internationally.

Do Irish fans expect to see a bit of an exodus in recent years? I just don't see that many players being happy to sit around as backup for their provinces. Despite the efforts of the IRFU to get Irish players for Irish provinces I would expect to see an increase in the amount of players leaving. Why sit on a bench at Leinster when you can go to England and play week in week out. Not even England as it usually was but I expect to see a few of our internationals end up in France or SANZAR.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:True, apologies Rava. I wonder how long it will be before he is discarded as a serious option at 13.

Probably won't happen until Kidney has gone

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who is "more valuable". Clearly central contracts do not equate to usefulness or else O'Brien would have one and Paddy Wallace/Denis Leamy wouldn't.

So you would agree that Tommy Bowe is not more deserving of a central contract than Earls is then (which is what a lot of the Ulster contingent here seem to think).
Don't think Leamy or Earls have central contract anymore. The announced was not the usual one in that it said that they had signed with the IRFU to play for Munster. No mention of international which is how the IRFU usually do it.

Getting central contracts is a sort of subsidy to the Ulster players (and keeps Ulster's wage bill lower than it would be).

Rava wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:True, apologies Rava. I wonder how long it will be before he is discarded as a serious option at 13.

Probably won't happen until Kidney has gone

Earls was doing fine in the centre for Munster before Kidney asked for him to be played on the wing, thanks very much.

Rava, clearly you have not watched much of Earls ever really, his kicking game is better than BOD's, which is less important at wing, but having the option at 13 is useful and it is a required skill at 15, hence why he was played there, esp after Fitzy proved he wasnt a 15.

This doesn't diminish Bowe's contribution or anything remotely btw. Having in in form is a boost to any team. I just think the value of Ealrs is more because of his versatility, but will agree that Bowe is the better winger.

debaters1 wrote:Rava, clearly you have not watched much of Earls ever really, his kicking game is better than BOD's, which is less important at wing, but having the option at 13 is useful and it is a required skill at 15, hence why he was played there, esp after Fitzy proved he wasnt a 15.

This doesn't diminish Bowe's contribution or anything remotely btw. Having in in form is a boost to any team. I just think the value of Ealrs is more because of his versatility, but will agree that Bowe is the better winger.

Very very wrong. I watch every game of rugby I can and certainly every game involving our provinces. In fact I might just have watched more of Keith Earls than most Munster supporters - FACT.

If you don't believe me ask my missus

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who is "more valuable". Clearly central contracts do not equate to usefulness or else O'Brien would have one and Paddy Wallace/Denis Leamy wouldn't.

So you would agree that Tommy Bowe is not more deserving of a central contract than Earls is then (which is what a lot of the Ulster contingent here seem to think).
Don't think Leamy or Earls have central contract anymore. The announced was not the usual one in that it said that they had signed with the IRFU to play for Munster. No mention of international which is how the IRFU usually do it.

Getting central contracts is a sort of subsidy to the Ulster players (and keeps Ulster's wage bill lower than it would be).

Yes. And even more so to Munster and Leinster. That is exactly the point of central contracts.

Sin é wrote:
Getting central contracts is a sort of subsidy to the Ulster players (and keeps Ulster's wage bill lower than it would be).

....The IRFU subsidises all the provinces Sin thats the point!

Dennis Leamy and Keith Earls actually do have central contracts I think.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Does it really matter who is "more valuable". Clearly central contracts do not equate to usefulness or else O'Brien would have one and Paddy Wallace/Denis Leamy wouldn't.

So you would agree that Tommy Bowe is not more deserving of a central contract than Earls is then (which is what a lot of the Ulster contingent here seem to think).
Don't think Leamy or Earls have central contract anymore. The announced was not the usual one in that it said that they had signed with the IRFU to play for Munster. No mention of international which is how the IRFU usually do it.

Getting central contracts is a sort of subsidy to the Ulster players (and keeps Ulster's wage bill lower than it would be).

If you can deduce that from Mick's post you are either Sherlock Holmes or on drugs, or perhaps both.

Leamy signed a central contract in the last year or so along with Rog and Doc.

Central Contracts as far as I can make out are:

Leinster
Healy
Ross
Heaslip
Sexton
Fitz
BOD
Kearney

Possibly question Fitzer, but hopefully he will force his way back in.

Ulster
Court
Best
Ferris
P Wallace
Trimble
And soon Bowe

Definitely question Paddy Wallace. The rest fair enough.

Munster
Flannery
O'Callaghan
O'Connell
Leamy
ROG
Earls
D Wallace
O'Leary

The last 2 will be gone at the end of the season.

Flanery? Will he ever play again? Hope so.

I would question Leamy.

No one would question POC and I'll let you off with the rest.

Paddy Wallace's is expiring at the end of the season. I was surprised by the decision to extend it but safe bet to say it won't be getting extended again.

Don't think Fitzgerald has one does he? For some reason I thought Sean Cronin had one.

geoff999rugby wrote:I cant see Earls getting anywhere near the 15 shirt with Kearney backed up by Jones

Totally agree. Jones is magnificent and will be hot on Kearney's heels again soon. All good at FB for Ireland.

And another thing, did you notice Bowe being moved inside (very effectively) on Sat? Deccie is definitely thinking about it - if Earls doesnt work out there.

He is starting to open his mind to different options, on-the-fly. It's all I ever wanted and what he has lacked up till now. We have the players, we just need to find the formula that works.

Seeing ROG and Sexton on the field - at the same time (4 times now) just made us much more threatening and controlled with it. Great option to spring late in the game. 2 Controllers.
We will need to outflank France tactically, with moves like this - to have any chance in Paris. Be brave. Be less predictable and spring changes on them. And knock 7 bells of shoite out of them from the kickoff. Controlled madness. Scotland showed the way in the 1st 40 mins. Unsettled them with Shawwk & Aaaawe. Just didnt have the nous to finish em off. We do.

Well happy with our Declan on Sat. Have to say. Bench was used really well. Timely and effectively. At last. More!

Off-topic, but I dont care really.

Court does not have a Central contract

Speaking of which. Do we have a definitive list, of who is and who is not - on contract? Its hardly a State Secret.

Strauss comes on board later this year. But with Cronin and Best, so solid for province and country, I cant see it happening. Good.
Cronin has come on in leaps and bounds. Amazing what a bit of peer-pressure can do.

I heard the IRFU insisted that Munster make the players carry the bricks and do the wiring in the renovated Thomond Park themselves, to save money on labour so it could instead be spent on crates of champagne, to be handed out to the crowd at Ulster games.

I also heard that Ulster players on central contracts all live in a solid gold tower, and that they only ever drive a car once, then it is dragged to West Belfast and burnt out, and replaced, because Rory Best once remarked that he liked the smell of a new car.

Or maybe it was that the Munster business team is complacent, lazy and light years behind Shane Logan. I can never remember.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Leamy signed a central contract in the last year or so along with Rog and Doc.

No, Earls & Leamy signed new contracts about 2 weeks ago which would "keep them with Munster for the next 2 years."

Ireland pair Keith Earls and Denis Leamy sign Munster deals

Ireland duo Keith Earls and Denis Leamy have signed IRFU contracts tieing them to Munster until 2014.

Versatile back Earls, who made his international debut in 2008, played for the British & Irish Lions on their tour to South Africa a year later.

"I'm really happy to get my contract completed and am delighted to remain a Munster player," said Earls.

Back-row forward Leamy, who is recovering from surgery on a hip injury, has won 57 Ireland caps.

"I've achieved a lot in my career, winning the Six Nations as well as Heineken and Magners League titles," said Leamy. "But there is always the desire to try to continue that and achieve even more.

"It also makes it more pleasing to do that with Munster and to remain here in Ireland with my home province."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16934661

Paddy Wallace and Tom Court agree new Ireland deals

Centre Paddy Wallace and prop Tom Court have agreed new deals to continue playing for Ireland and Ulster.

Wallace has signed a one-year deal which will see him contracted to the IRFU and Ulster Rugby until June 2013.

Court has agreed a two-year term which will see him wear Ulster and Ireland colours until June 2014. .........

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/northern-ireland/16221352

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Getting central contracts is a sort of subsidy to the Ulster players (and keeps Ulster's wage bill lower than it would be).

....The IRFU subsidises all the provinces Sin thats the point!

Dennis Leamy and Keith Earls actually do have central contracts I think.

It would appear rods that the IRFU subsidise some more than others.

Dennis Leamy and Keith earls have lost their central contracts.

Don Alfonso wrote:I heard the IRFU insisted that Munster make the players carry the bricks and do the wiring in the renovated Thomond Park themselves, to save money on labour so it could instead be spent on crates of champagne, to be handed out to the crowd at Ulster games.

I also heard that Ulster players on central contracts all live in a solid gold tower, and that they only ever drive a car once, then it is dragged to West Belfast and burnt out, and replaced, because Rory Best once remarked that he liked the smell of a new car.

Or maybe it was that the Munster business team is complacent, lazy and light years behind Shane Logan. I can never remember.

Logan strikes me as a complete chancer. Youre welcome to him.

Given that Ulster have the fewest central contracts of the three provinces, Sin E continues to mystify and amuse in equal measure

Sin you are such a wum man!

roddersm wrote:Don't think Fitzgerald has one does he? For some reason I thought Sean Cronin had one.

Luke is getting one (heard something about negotiations there a week or so ago being ongoing with the IRFU). sean cronin doesn't have one.

Don Alfonso wrote:I heard the IRFU insisted that Munster make the players carry the bricks and do the wiring in the renovated Thomond Park themselves, to save money on labour so it could instead be spent on crates of champagne, to be handed out to the crowd at Ulster games.

I also heard that Ulster players on central contracts all live in a solid gold tower, and that they only ever drive a car once, then it is dragged to West Belfast and burnt out, and replaced, because Rory Best once remarked that he liked the smell of a new car.

Or maybe it was that the Munster business team is complacent, lazy and light years behind Shane Logan. I can never remember.

This thread is brilliant. I'm practically crying here lads!

Don

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I heard the IRFU insisted that Munster make the players carry the bricks and do the wiring in the renovated Thomond Park themselves, to save money on labour so it could instead be spent on crates of champagne, to be handed out to the crowd at Ulster games.

I also heard that Ulster players on central contracts all live in a solid gold tower, and that they only ever drive a car once, then it is dragged to West Belfast and burnt out, and replaced, because Rory Best once remarked that he liked the smell of a new car.

Or maybe it was that the Munster business team is complacent, lazy and light years behind Shane Logan. I can never remember.

Logan strikes me as a complete chancer. Youre welcome to him.

If you ever do get the chance to meet him, I know you will take that back.

Notch wrote:Given that Ulster have the fewest central contracts of the three provinces, Sin E continues to mystify and amuse in equal measure

Ulster have two starters (best & ferris), the rest are on the fringes.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Getting central contracts is a sort of subsidy to the Ulster players (and keeps Ulster's wage bill lower than it would be).

....The IRFU subsidises all the provinces Sin thats the point!

Dennis Leamy and Keith Earls actually do have central contracts I think.

It would appear rods that the IRFU subsidise some more than others.

Dennis Leamy and Keith earls have lost their central contracts.

http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/sport/earls-and-leamy-sign-new-deals/

No dey haven't.

Rava wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I heard the IRFU insisted that Munster make the players carry the bricks and do the wiring in the renovated Thomond Park themselves, to save money on labour so it could instead be spent on crates of champagne, to be handed out to the crowd at Ulster games.

I also heard that Ulster players on central contracts all live in a solid gold tower, and that they only ever drive a car once, then it is dragged to West Belfast and burnt out, and replaced, because Rory Best once remarked that he liked the smell of a new car.

Or maybe it was that the Munster business team is complacent, lazy and light years behind Shane Logan. I can never remember.

Logan strikes me as a complete chancer. Youre welcome to him.

If you ever do get the chance to meet him, I know you will take that back.

Only saw one interview of him on the bbc - looked real dodgy to me.

... keep digging Sin you'll stike black gold soon man!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Getting central contracts is a sort of subsidy to the Ulster players (and keeps Ulster's wage bill lower than it would be).

....The IRFU subsidises all the provinces Sin thats the point!

Dennis Leamy and Keith Earls actually do have central contracts I think.

It would appear rods that the IRFU subsidise some more than others.

Dennis Leamy and Keith earls have lost their central contracts.

http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/sport/earls-and-leamy-sign-new-deals/

No dey haven't.

Read the piece. No mention of Ireland as with the other contracts. It just says that earls & leamy have signed to play for Munster until 2014.

"The IRFU have confirmed that Keith Earls and Denis Leamy have both agreed new contracts that will see them continue playing with Munster for a further two years. The pair have both agreed extensions to their central contracts, which will see them continue playing for their native province until 2014"

That's the kind of in-depth analysis that puts the rest of us in the shade, Sin.

roddersm wrote: ... keep digging Sin you'll stike black gold soon man!

He was asked the McGlocks situation was a PR disaster which he denied. then he says that Ulster handled it badly a few second later. Is he a bit thick or does he think everyone else is thick?

He speaks highly of you Sin

Sin you wouldn't be trying to divert the discussion away from the Central contracts now would you?.....

In fairness to Sin, I heard that the IRFU are subsidising Ulster much more heavily than any of the other provinces.

The way it was explained to me is that it was something complicated to do with "investing in the future", and "allocating resources in areas that were most likely to see a return, in terms of HEC and Irish success"...?

suftfum

roddersm wrote:"The IRFU have confirmed that Keith Earls and Denis Leamy have both agreed new contracts that will see them continue playing with Munster for a further two years. The pair have both agreed extensions to their central contracts, which will see them continue playing for their native province until 2014"

I'd be more inclined to go with the IRFU & Munster press releases, neither of which mention Ireland or central contracts. They both just mention Munster.

They definitely are investing a lot in Ulster with the long-term goal of seeing them come up to the level of Munster and Leinster, on and off the pitch. Which is of course good for everybody.

I'm sure you would, Sin.

Don Alfonso wrote:In fairness to Sin, I heard that the IRFU are subsidising Ulster much more heavily than any of the other provinces.

The way it was explained to me is that it was something complicated to do with "investing in the future", and "allocating resources in areas that were most likely to see a return, in terms of HEC and Irish success"...?

suftfum

The pressure will sure be on Humphreys & Logan to produce next season.

Notch wrote:They definitely are investing a lot in Ulster with the long-term goal of seeing them come up to the level of Munster and Leinster, on and off the pitch. Which is of course good for everybody.

Might be good for Ireland, but I don't see how it benefits Munster or Leinster who are getting financially handicapped for over achieving both on and off the pitch.

Don Alfonso wrote:In fairness to Sin, I heard that the IRFU are subsidising Ulster much more heavily than any of the other provinces.

The way it was explained to me is that it was something complicated to do with "investing in the future", and "allocating resources in areas that were most likely to see a return, in terms of HEC and Irish success"...?

suftfum

Thanks Don for acknowledging that.

No problem, Sin. After all, it doesn't help to live in denial.

Over-achieving off the pitch? How so?

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:They definitely are investing a lot in Ulster with the long-term goal of seeing them come up to the level of Munster and Leinster, on and off the pitch. Which is of course good for everybody.

Might be good for Ireland, but I don't see how it benefits Munster or Leinster who are getting financially handicapped for over achieving both on and off the pitch.

How exactly are Munster and Leinster financially handicapped though? They are amongst the richest teams in the UK and Ireland. The IRFU have in the past invested a lot of money into these provinces and now they are self-sustaining. The hope is that Ulster can emulate that example.

Don Alfonso wrote:No problem, Sin. After all, it doesn't help to live in denial.

Over-achieving off the pitch? How so?

Sponsorship deals (bonus payments for success), jersey sales, 26K stadium with not huge debt (10M to IRFU approx). Munster have had soccer internationals and concerts and you can even get married in Thomond Park now if you fancy it Then there is Thomond Park wine .... lol

Leinster has at least two big games in the aviva every year and are now about to open their own training centre. Leinster did make a mess of the stand in donnybrook which cost a fortune.

And Ulster are developing Ravenhill at NO cost to the IRFU.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:They definitely are investing a lot in Ulster with the long-term goal of seeing them come up to the level of Munster and Leinster, on and off the pitch. Which is of course good for everybody.

Might be good for Ireland, but I don't see how it benefits Munster or Leinster who are getting financially handicapped for over achieving both on and off the pitch.

How exactly are Munster and Leinster financially handicapped though? They are amongst the richest teams in the UK and Ireland. The IRFU have in the past invested a lot of money into these provinces and now they are self-sustaining. The hope is that Ulster can emulate that example.

Neither Leinster or Munster are particularly rich. Think the budget for Munster is about 12M a year (for the whole province, amateur game, two stadia etc). Leinster posted a financial loss about 2 years ago, and Munster had reserves of about 400K last year.

Munster raised 30M to rebuild Thomond Park. The IRFU loaned them 10m which they still have to be pay back. Munster have been generating money for the IRFU (they get all the prize money for Heineken Cup wins and tv rights money).

Think of how useful to the IRFU that Leinster has a couple of games in the aviva every year and the one that is the sell-out is the Leinster v Munster one.

Rava wrote:And Ulster are developing Ravenhill at NO cost to the IRFU.

Good. Its all a UK government grant. Munster had to sell name blocks among other things to raise the 30m. They were intending to sell the naming rights until thank god JP McManus stepped in.

A healthy Ulster and a healthier Connacht, benefits Irish rugby as a whole.

We, on the other hand, through being the best run club in the World and showing ye the way, are subsidising ye all.

No thanks necessary roysh.

Not a Grant Sin. No money to pay back thankfully.
Actually there are murmurs about naming rights for Ravenhill. Hope that doesn't happen.

According to the IRFU, the Ireland national team is subsidising everyone via ticket sales, merchandising, sponsorship and TV money. The money flows from the national team into the provinces... not vice versa.

The IRFU own Ravenhill. Do they also own Thomond?