Will the Irish provinces suffer a players exodus?

First topic message reminder :

Whether it is a "development" league or not, the Celtic League has been able to provide the Irish provinces with a continuing supply of players. The induction of guys like Sean O'Brien, Keith Earls, Cian Healy, Peter O'Mahony and Craig Gilroy has been almost seamless and we are beginning to see strenght in depth and whats more Irish strenght in depth.

In one of Munster's pool stage matches in the Heineken Cup this season the bench included Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Denis Leamy and Tomas O'Leary. Not so long ago that was a third of Irelands national team.

We are now at a stage where (despite reports of an "aging" team) most of Irelands internationals are in their mid 20s with even younger guys champing at the bit for selection in both provinces and internationally.

Do Irish fans expect to see a bit of an exodus in recent years? I just don't see that many players being happy to sit around as backup for their provinces. Despite the efforts of the IRFU to get Irish players for Irish provinces I would expect to see an increase in the amount of players leaving. Why sit on a bench at Leinster when you can go to England and play week in week out. Not even England as it usually was but I expect to see a few of our internationals end up in France or SANZAR.

This is the COnnacht XV for Edinburgh, some injuries/rotation at the moment so depth comes into the equation. Imagine if the players in bold were with playing.

15 Gavin Duffy (capt),
14 Fetu'u Vainikolo, Conway/Carr
13 Kyle Tonetti,
12 Henry Fa'afili, Whitten
11 Tiernan O'Halloran,
10 Niall O'Connor,
9 Frank Murphy, Stringer
8 George Naoupu,
7 Eoghan Grace, Ryan
6 John Muldoon,
5 Mike McCarthy,
4 Michael Swift,
3 Ronan Loughney, Buckley
2 Adrian Flavin,
1 Denis Buckley.

Replacements: 16 Ethienne Reynecke, 17 Dylan Rogers/Brett Wilkinson, 18 Stewart Maguire Nagle, 19 Mick Kearney, 20 Ray Ofisa, 21 Paul O'Donohoe, 22 Matthew Jarvis, 23 Eoin Griffin Murphy.

Good contrast of experience and young guys not getting reg game time.

Right, Don't mean to open a massive can of worms, and I really am not wumming so please don't accuse me of same or ignore the post, but....

Would it not be of mutual benefit to Ulster and its players, old & young, to move their company registration to a 'southern' county ala the Ulster branch of the GAA. Basicllay, you post a loss in NI for a gain in the Republic due to a) more favourable corporation tax and b) the tax relief benefit to players.

Now income from tickets sales at Ravenhill would still be subject to NI taxes etc, but sponsorship deals could be moved to banking etc in the south and all contracts could easily be brokered and signed in Cavan/Monaghan/Donegal. Still a clearly identifiable Ulster branding and, to my mind anyway, would not politicise Ulster Rugby for the move, I mean, if it were the opposite way around and Ravenhill was in Donegal town, I'd consider it madness of the UB not to do what I have suggested by moving things north (or to be geographically correct, east) of the Border to exploit such taxation differences.

There would be changes for the player regarding Sterling & Euro etc, but I cannot imagine that say Paddy Wallce with his Ireland contract is not being paid into an A/C in the South in Yoyos (or at least the 'Irsh Central Contract' chunck of his salary.

As to the original post, i'm sure it will happen to an extent but mainly if not exclusively, to guys that wont make it or those that have been permanently over taken.

On a related note, I do not think that TOL fits either bracket, hope he stays to be honest!

I think TOL could do with going to France or SANZAR just because I think he needs to evolve his game and he won't be able to do that in ireland I don't think

debaters1 wrote:Right, Don't mean to open a massive can of worms, and I really am not wumming so please don't accuse me of same or ignore the post, but....

Would it not be of mutual benefit to Ulster and its players, old & young, to move their company registration to a 'southern' county ala the Ulster branch of the GAA. Basicllay, you post a loss in NI for a gain in the Republic due to a) more favourable corporation tax and b) the tax relief benefit to players.

Now income from tickets sales at Ravenhill would still be subject to NI taxes etc, but sponsorship deals could be moved to banking etc in the south and all contracts could easily be brokered and signed in Cavan/Monaghan/Donegal. Still a clearly identifiable Ulster branding and, to my mind anyway, would not politicise Ulster Rugby for the move, I mean, if it were the opposite way around and Ravenhill was in Donegal town, I'd consider it madness of the UB not to do what I have suggested by moving things north (or to be geographically correct, east) of the Border to exploit such taxation differences.

There would be changes for the player regarding Sterling & Euro etc, but I cannot imagine that say Paddy Wallce with his Ireland contract is not being paid into an A/C in the South in Yoyos (or at least the 'Irsh Central Contract' chunck of his salary.

As to the original post, i'm sure it will happen to an extent but mainly if not exclusively, to guys that wont make it or those that have been permanently over taken.

On a related note, I do not think that TOL fits either bracket, hope he stays to be honest!

While sponsorship contracts and other contracts might be put together (shall we say creatively), as I understand it, the players play at their home ground and that salary is taxed then at that location. Rugby is a small issue here, you could if the players contract was not linked to their homeground location, have the entire premiership claiming their salary income in Monaco or Jersey. Maybe northy players in the IRFU get their 6Ns and IRFU related squad sessions and tours split out separately, but that isn't a debate for here.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:This is the COnnacht XV for Edinburgh, some injuries/rotation at the moment so depth comes into the equation. Imagine if the players in bold were with playing.

15 Gavin Duffy (capt),
14 Fetu'u Vainikolo, Conway/Carr
13 Kyle Tonetti,
12 Henry Fa'afili, Whitten
11 Tiernan O'Halloran,
10 Niall O'Connor,
9 Frank Murphy, Stringer
8 George Naoupu,
7 Eoghan Grace, Ryan
6 John Muldoon,
5 Mike McCarthy,
4 Michael Swift,
3 Ronan Loughney, Buckley
2 Adrian Flavin,
1 Denis Buckley.

Replacements: 16 Ethienne Reynecke, 17 Dylan Rogers/Brett Wilkinson, 18 Stewart Maguire Nagle, 19 Mick Kearney, 20 Ray Ofisa, 21 Paul O'Donohoe, 22 Matthew Jarvis, 23 Eoin Griffin Murphy.

Good contrast of experience and young guys not getting reg game time.

I'd switch Nagle over beside Ofisa. A lot of those switches would also mean, for Connacht, a chunky increase in salary costs I'd imagine. They can hardly cover their current costs, would something like this get subsidised?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:This is the COnnacht XV for Edinburgh, some injuries/rotation at the moment so depth comes into the equation. Imagine if the players in bold were with playing.

15 Gavin Duffy (capt),
14 Fetu'u Vainikolo, Conway/Carr
13 Kyle Tonetti,
12 Henry Fa'afili, Whitten
11 Tiernan O'Halloran,
10 Niall O'Connor,
9 Frank Murphy, Stringer
8 George Naoupu,
7 Eoghan Grace, Ryan
6 John Muldoon,
5 Mike McCarthy,
4 Michael Swift,
3 Ronan Loughney, Buckley
2 Adrian Flavin,
1 Denis Buckley.

Replacements: 16 Ethienne Reynecke, 17 Dylan Rogers/Brett Wilkinson, 18 Stewart Maguire Nagle, 19 Mick Kearney, 20 Ray Ofisa, 21 Paul O'Donohoe, 22 Matthew Jarvis, 23 Eoin Griffin Murphy.

Good contrast of experience and young guys not getting reg game time.

I don't see Anderson or McCrea in the squad, so leaving Ulster and heading West doesn't necessarily get you a game. (I suppose they might be injured but there's no mention of it)

Debaters, as far as I understand it the law in the UK is that a Sporting Club is viewed as being located at the home ground they habitually use. Unless Ulster started playing the majority of their games in Donegal, Monaghan or Cavan they are liable to pay tax in the UK!

As they should. Whilst we straddle the border the majority of our custom probably comes from the Greater Belfast Area. I'm hoping we expand a lot into previously un-Rugby strongholds but that the way it is now. If most of the fans are in the UK, and we play there, we have an obligation to pay tax there even if there was a loophole (there's not, unless I'm very wrong).

Notch is spot on.

Ulster have looked at this but because Ravenhill is in the UK it is a non starter. No loop hole found

I just think that it would strengthen Connacht, the young guys would get more game time.

It would mean a need for an influx of cash, a I said before doing all this without putting in a very good coach would be unwise. The IRFU would need to pay out a lot for this to happen in conjuctiion with the players salaries and also sale.

It would however be very benfitial for both Connacht and the players in question I feel.

Ireland, because of the development of professionalism and the good work of academies, seems stuffed with young players coming through a very slim door...and the build up of players that need more quality gametime increases almost on a monthly basis. If that clog continues, nature itself will find the solution and yes, young players will look abroad to further their experience and careers.

Maybe some of that percieved build up of talent is just illusion given the successes of the Provinces in Europe. Maybe we think we have a conveyor belt of talent but maybe the emphasis on 'talent' needs more proof in actual performances at league or HC level. But let's go with the argument and suggest we have a build up of talent that needs to play or to fly away to where it can.

If they go South then bon-voyage and good luck with the rest of your lives because I think that will be the last we would see of the majority of those who choose that route in their playing careers..and they certainly would be out of the loop for International representation.

If they go to England or France...then that becomes problematic. In that scenario you have Irish players doing their job but possibly also playing their part in bringing about a dilution of Provincial strength in Europe.

Talented players will always be a finite resource in any given population. If a percentage of that talent eventually competes against Provinces, then provinces will be forced to review the foreign player numbers in order to compete with the increasingly multi-national English and French. That in turn leads to a weakening of Ireland's International capabilities as they must look to more and more outside players returning home for International windows, and the nightmares for organisation and unified coaching that this can cause.

The only possible solution (or partial solution) is for Provinces to become more genuinely committted to Rotation as a policy within their team structures. Schmidt at Leinster is certainly giving it a go, as much through necessity as it being a real policy. But the truth is if we don't harness the tail-end of the successful academy structures then we'll have spent valuable money and resources to furnish outside European competitors [for that is what they are - competitors] with ready made players. That's not exactly the best business plan a company could come up with!

The tail-end is the glut of players ready to play in League certainly and HC later down the line. They need quality time so that they can feel they are participating in success, getting vital experience and being valued as players who can make a real contribution to their chosen Provinces. It's the lack of trust shown in them that will drive them away. But let's not kid ourselves, we hold onto to as many of them as possible for selfish reasons. We hold onto them for as long as possible to be able to weed out the truly gifted ones. We fail in that exercise and we begin to crumble back into the shadows of European and International rugby.

Fair enough. I should have prefaced what I said with accepting that the accountants had probably done their homework on this one!

And morally I totally agree with the position that you forwarded regarding income and tax liability regaridng where your fans are drawn from etc. So I suppose it is 'right' that the staus quo is what it is. But I could totally understand if Ulster contracted players playing in the same league as the other three provinces and competeing for the IRFU allocation of HEC places and playing for the same International team might feel a little hard done by in respect of the rebate (Tax rates and such are idiosyncratic and where you might lose up front you gain in services and vice versa) but the rebate is definately a post pro career advantage.

But it is what it is!

SecretFly wrote:Ireland, because of the development of professionalism and the good work of academies, seems stuffed with young players coming through a very slim door...and the build up of players that need more quality gametime increases almost on a monthly basis. If that clog continues, nature itself will find the solution and yes, young players will look abroad to further their experience and careers.

The point being made here though is why should the surplus have to go to abroad when theres Connacht with an excess of NIQs.

As well as the young talent though, I'd love to see a few quality IQs take a gamble and move to them. It would do the country the world of good to spread our potential internationals out to increase game time for everyone who is worthy of it.

Waste not want not

I agree Fly, I just think the balance of players in certain positions could be better. Leinster have loads of IQ backrowers and Ulster a few less, can this be solved with a switch?

Ulster have loads of IQ centres, Munster don't, can this be solved with a switch?

Connacht need some real quality and experience and Stringer isn't getting a game with munster, can this be solved with a switch?

Help each other. If I had to choose between losing a QF to Ulster or losing a QF to Biarritz I'd chose Ulster every day

AS your one on the Tele says; "make the big switch"

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I agree Fly, I just think the balance of players in certain positions could be better. Leinster have loads of IQ backrowers and Ulster a few less, can this be solved with a switch?

Ulster have loads of IQ centres, Munster don't, can this be solved with a switch?

Connacht need some real quality and experience and Stringer isn't getting a game with munster, can this be solved with a switch?

Help each other. If I had to choose between losing a QF to Ulster or losing a QF to Biarritz I'd chose Ulster every day

AS your one on the Tele says; "make the big switch"

Pete I'm not sure everyone would feel the same.

The thing is, and I suppose I share Gibbos thoughts here. The Provinces need to be separate entities. We can't go along thinking "oh Joe Bloggs isn't getting a game here so you should have him"
If a player genuinely is attracted to playing somewhere and the deal is right then fine but leave it at that.

Also as recent years have shown 'Joe Bloggs' often digs his heels in and refuses to go.

3 Leinster players have said No to Ulster in the last 2 summers.

Well, I'd prefer two or three Leinster guys beating Leinster whilst playing for Ulster than see them doing it with Leicester or Toulouse?

Call me selfish, but that's what I am Irish provincial success is essential for continued Irish (semi!!!!!) success at International. - but also, Irish Provincial success is just a pretty darn good feeling in its own right.

Wouldn’t it be beneficial to have a 5 region in England, maybe somewhere just outside of London, but for handiness sake, we’ll call them “Irish London”. Since the RFU don’t “own” teams in the premiership then they could hardly object if the IRFU had a deal with “Irish London” such that talent which is surplus to requirements in Ireland is packed off to play in the bish bash bosh it up the middle glamour of the English league.

I know Conor O’Shea did float this idea some years ago and it was dismissed by the IRFU but maybe it’s an option that could be looked at again.

You can't nurture an ethos of loyalty (sweating blood for your province), and then force players to rotate to Connacht/Ulster/Munster/Leinster. The ones you'd want wouldn't hang around. We held onto BOD, ROG & Paul O'Connell through that kind of loyalty.

I would think that players in Belfast on international contracts are financially compensated for the way their tax situation is in the UK in that they probably earn more than a centrally contracted player in the other provinces. (I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Ferris is the highest paid rugby player in Ireland (he might have posted it on twitter when he signed his last contract!).

Some good news anyway - Howlett is staying with Munster for another year.

Rava, couldn't agree more.

Munster and Leinster's & Ulster's stalwart players have bought into and nurtured that love and identity of their respective Provinces. And while we are all freinds, and there are player exchanges etc, you cannot hope to have the blood boiling aspect of these teams kicking seven types of shoite out eachother and then next week be pulling on the same club jersey and not lose something, be it unity with the new arrival or the intensity of the pride in taking to the field for a particular province.

Whitten, Cave, Spence et al are not bench warmers or fringe players in Ulster, they are farking integral to the team and every Ulster fan is probably thinking 'KEEP YOUR TURNIP MUNCHING HANDS OF THEM!!!' and they'd be right.

Same thing goes at 2nd Row in Munster, In all likelihood MOD will be all but retired y the new HC, and then you'll have POC, DOC, Ryan, Nagle, DOC jr and TOD all fighting for those 2.5 spots in a HC squad. And with POC and DOC not getting any younger, we'll need the back up by 2013 for certain. And this is without the spectre of injuries.

Now don't get me wrong, guys moving on is a fact of life and very often benefits their game (case in point MOD at Perpignan and Bowe at Ospreys) but establisehed players moving between the provinces directly is unlikely and in my opinion, unless extreme circumstances such as a massive fallout between the prov coach and the player (and even then I'd phooken hope the IRFU could/would broker a peace accord) such moves are undesirable.

I mean, last season we had chat of Ross coming back to Munster. Great for Munster, same net result for Irish rugby in terms of the national team, but it would have undermined Leinster (and made them in due course reliant on an NIQ (obv Munster now have Botha, but that another story)

This case isn't perfect given he is a Munster man originally, but I think the point I am trying to make is that strategic development for the International game is all very well, but taking it too far would undermine the healthy (i emphasise the HEALTHY) rivavlry between the provinces and their fans. I take emmense pride (and detest losing) the fact that one of the biggest games in Eurpean (even world Club rugby) is the Munster v Leinster match twice a season.

But obviously this is nuanced enough as is. I mean off the top of my head I can think of two former Munster players at Leinster as starters, Reddan & Ross. Both player benefitted hugely from initially playing in the Jeff and have prospered further at the RDS. Boss too, down from Ulster directly has developed as a player.

Then you have Niall Ronan and Felix Jones doing similar things with Munster. Ive sort of undermined my own point with this ramble but it think there is just enough clarity in there for people to get what I mean, even if I have been rather ineffective in how I worded things.

Just to be clear...my call was to have real committment to real rotation within Provincial sides...not around Provincial sides.

Good news about Howlett BTW.

Sin é wrote:You can't nurture an ethos of loyalty (sweating blood for your province), and then force players to rotate to Connacht/Ulster/Munster/Leinster. The ones you'd want wouldn't hang around. We held onto BOD, ROG & Paul O'Connell through that kind of loyalty.

I would think that players in Belfast on international contracts are financially compensated for the way their tax situation is in the UK in that they probably earn more than a centrally contracted player in the other provinces. (I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Ferris is the highest paid rugby player in Ireland (he might have posted it on twitter when he signed his last contract!).

Some good news anyway - Howlett is staying with Munster for another year.

I don't think ferris is on anything near O'connell or O'Driscoll and maybe even ROG depending on when he signed his last contract. He would be very highly paid though. Maybe in the next band down I would guess. Good news regarding howlett Sin. Puts the end to any lingering doubts about tommy but a back line of

Murray, ROG, Earls, Downey, Laulala, Howlett, Jones with Zebo, hanrahan, O'Dea, keatley, hurley in the wings looks quite healthy.

Fly, wheat do you mean 'real rotation'? Because as I see it, and as is actually visable in team sheets as far as ai can read them, the Irish provinces roatate their match day 223's more than anyone else in Europe. Fact.

The times they don't tend to do this, are those peskily important European games, on a willynilly basis I mean. So I do not see a need to 'do more'

Munster had a bad season and they went and won the League, beating the European Champions in the process, twice. Ulster made the play offs in both comps, Leinster won the HC and were runners up in both the League proper and 'grand' Final.

I think we heard that Munster debuted 8 players in the HC as starters this season. And won 6 out of 6and are top seeds. Leinster are unbeaten in 6 games too and Ulster have a second successive 1/4 (at least) while Leinster are runnawy leaders of the Rabo and Munster in in 3rd with a game in hand to go second, Ulster in 7th 4 points off a play off spot.

Stand, yep, Munster are putting together some tidy home grown backs and with this being certainly Dougies last year (as in 2012-2013) and his family settled in Ireland, i can see him havig a coaching role very soon. And he is one of the great wingers of an era of the game and that's built on his intelligence & understanding of the game allied to great 'heads up' game reading ability. If he can impart a tenth of what he knows to the outside backs we'll hopefully push on again.

Ferris isn't even the highest paid rugby player in Ulster, let alone Ireland.
If you mean Irish players in Ireland it is my understanding POC, BOD and Heaslip all get more.

I do not believe any concession is made to Ulster players for their disadvantage with regard to Tax.

Sin é wrote:You can't nurture an ethos of loyalty (sweating blood for your province), and then force players to rotate to Connacht/Ulster/Munster/Leinster. The ones you'd want wouldn't hang around. We held onto BOD, ROG & Paul O'Connell through that kind of loyalty.

I would think that players in Belfast on international contracts are financially compensated for the way their tax situation is in the UK in that they probably earn more than a centrally contracted player in the other provinces. (I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Ferris is the highest paid rugby player in Ireland (he might have posted it on twitter when he signed his last contract!).

Some good news anyway - Howlett is staying with Munster for another year.

Do you just make this stuff up?

Should Ulster players be compensated for lack of tax rebate?

debaters1 wrote:Fly, wheat do you mean 'real rotation'? Because as I see it, and as is actually visable in team sheets as far as ai can read them, Munster and Leinster the Irish provinces rotate their match day 223's more than anyone else in Europe. Fact. Probably/Possibly

Corrected for you
Ulster rotate less than the leading English clubs..contrary to popular belief

geoff998rugby wrote:Ferris isn't even the highest paid rugby player in Ulster, let alone Ireland.
If you mean Irish players in Ireland it is my understanding POC, BOD and Heaslip all get more.

I do not believe any concession is made to Ulster players for their disadvantage with regard to Tax.

The concession is from the ROI based players who accept less than they would get from French/English clubs because of the tax incentive to remain here.
Ulster/IRFU would have to try and match the foreign clubs offerings. For instance, do you think that Tommy Bowe will take a financial hit for going back to Ulster when he could have gone to Munster or will someone come up with the cash to compensate him for that?

I think they will (probably Ulster)!

debaters1 wrote:Fly, wheat do you mean 'real rotation'? Because as I see it, and as is actually visable in team sheets as far as ai can read them, the Irish provinces roatate their match day 223's more than anyone else in Europe. Fact.

The times they don't tend to do this, are those peskily important European games, on a willynilly basis I mean. So I do not see a need to 'do more'

Munster had a bad season and they went and won the League, beating the European Champions in the process, twice. Ulster made the play offs in both comps, Leinster won the HC and were runners up in both the League proper and 'grand' Final.

I think we heard that Munster debuted 8 players in the HC as starters this season. And won 6 out of 6and are top seeds. Leinster are unbeaten in 6 games too and Ulster have a second successive 1/4 (at least) while Leinster are runnawy leaders of the Rabo and Munster in in 3rd with a game in hand to go second, Ulster in 7th 4 points off a play off spot.

We all know how the Provinces are doing, debators. They're going great, thanks to some good coaching and some great playing by both the senior players and often by the younger guys 'rotated' in. I said Provinces were successful... indeed, I don't have to say it, it's there in B&W when you look at Pro12 or HC tables.

The Impression still is, though - and the point of the article still is - that there might be an exodus of players to England, France or further afield. That's the discussion.

So will there be a risk of an exodus. I say yes, there will be. Others will disagree. But let's go on my reply to the question put out there by Stag - I say there will be a risk of an exodus. Why? Because the acadamies seem (and I did specify 'seem') to be producing more young players of potential then can be catered for in the four Provinces.

Who then might leave? The players who would be considered first teamers? I say No. The incentive and the central contracts would suggest they stay to reap the benefits of playing in and for successful European Provinces. Who else might hop on a plane?

I say the most likely to hop on a plane will be the players who even on a present 'rotation' policy within Provinces still Won't get substantial enough gametime for them. And no, I don't believe it is a real committment to rotation that exist in most Provinces. It is something that happens because of circumstances more than it is a continuous pattern that permeates right the way through a season. Players get in through injury or because of the player protection program for Internationals or as experience exercises against lesser sides in Pro 12.

That might be a successful plan...and Pro12 and HC positions seem to suggest so - but that's not my argument. I'm not arguing about the successful routines at Provincial levels (they are and I hope they continue) but that won't solve the glut of academy players streaming in the narrow door looking for action. What might ease that burden somewhat is bigger squads for Provinces and a more structured rotation policy that goes further along the seasonal route than just low level games in the Pro 12. I'm not saying that would or wouldn't have perhaps quality control issues for Provinces looking to succeed, I'm saying That is about the only solution to a glut other than waving bye to the players at the airport. And I laid down my reasons why that wouldn't be the ideal outcome as far as I'm concerned.

red_stag wrote:Should Ulster players be compensated for lack of tax rebate?

I think the question is is it in the best interest of Irish rugby that they should be.

Whilst, as now, Ulster players are prepared to stay in the Province there is no need.
However if they start hemorraging players then Dublin will look at ways of stopping it and compensation would be considered. There is no prospect of that in the short term (next 2 years)

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Sin é wrote:You can't nurture an ethos of loyalty (sweating blood for your province), and then force players to rotate to Connacht/Ulster/Munster/Leinster. The ones you'd want wouldn't hang around. We held onto BOD, ROG & Paul O'Connell through that kind of loyalty.

I would think that players in Belfast on international contracts are financially compensated for the way their tax situation is in the UK in that they probably earn more than a centrally contracted player in the other provinces. (I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Ferris is the highest paid rugby player in Ireland (he might have posted it on twitter when he signed his last contract!).

Some good news anyway - Howlett is staying with Munster for another year.

Do you just make this stuff up?

Well he made that bit up.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Sin é wrote:You can't nurture an ethos of loyalty (sweating blood for your province), and then force players to rotate to Connacht/Ulster/Munster/Leinster. The ones you'd want wouldn't hang around. We held onto BOD, ROG & Paul O'Connell through that kind of loyalty.

I would think that players in Belfast on international contracts are financially compensated for the way their tax situation is in the UK in that they probably earn more than a centrally contracted player in the other provinces. (I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Ferris is the highest paid rugby player in Ireland (he might have posted it on twitter when he signed his last contract!).

Some good news anyway - Howlett is staying with Munster for another year.

Do you just make this stuff up?

I presume you are referring to the Ferris's comment. Whenever he signed his last contract, he tweeted that. Maybe he was having a bit of banter with Heislip & Co.

Ferris has an advantage over Sean O'Brien in that SOB does not have an international contract (and he signed a new one with Leinster this time last year).

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Ferris isn't even the highest paid rugby player in Ulster, let alone Ireland.
If you mean Irish players in Ireland it is my understanding POC, BOD and Heaslip all get more.

I do not believe any concession is made to Ulster players for their disadvantage with regard to Tax.

The concession is from the ROI based players who accept less than they would get from French/English clubs because of the tax incentive to remain here.
Ulster/IRFU would have to try and match the foreign clubs offerings. For instance, do you think that Tommy Bowe will take a financial hit for going back to Ulster when he could have gone to Munster or will someone come up with the cash to compensate him for that?

I think they will (probably Ulster)!

That is not a concession to the Ulster players though - players North and South of the border are paid according to their perceived worth regardless of the differing tax rates.

Ulster do not have to match other offers to persuade Tommy Bowe to return. Tommy Bowe will be taking a significant pay cut and will be getting less than he could elsewhere. He is doing so because Ulster is the palce he wants to play his rugby. His exit was not motivate by money, his return is not motivate by money.

Sin e you need to realize Stephen Ferris is one of the biggest wind up merchants of all time. He uses Twitter to post absolute garbage just to get a reaction.

I was referring just as much to the idea that the IRFU subsidizes Ulster the money lost through higher taxes.

Just a point on the player protection program thingy. Did anyone notice that it didn't actually work? We had loads of injuries last season. And the program didn't help us much in the RWC either in terms of fitness. We were soundly beaten by Welsh players who were obviously fitter despite having no player protection program.

All it did was cause trouble for the provinces. Remember Schmidt having to take off Heaslip in exactly the 60th minute despite Leinster being behind? Did that 20 minutes on the bench make Heaslip play any better in the RWC? No, he wasn't very good at all at the RWC actually. I remember D'arcy complaining that the protection program was making it very hard for him to play himself back into form and that some players need more gametime than others.

I think the player protection thingy in the RWC year was ridiculous and was a failure.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Just a point on the player protection program thingy. Did anyone notice that it didn't actually work? We had loads of injuries last season. And the program didn't help us much in the RWC either in terms of fitness. We were soundly beaten by Welsh players who were obviously fitter despite having no player protection program.

All it did was cause trouble for the provinces. Remember Schmidt having to take off Heaslip in exactly the 60th minute despite Leinster being behind? Did that 20 minutes on the bench make Heaslip play any better in the RWC? No, he wasn't very good at all at the RWC actually. I remember D'arcy complaining that the protection program was making it very hard for him to play himself back into form and that some players need more gametime than others.

I think the player protection thingy in the RWC year was ridiculous and was a failure.

Yes, Feckless... it is a bit of a hit and miss program. I think it probably does..or did work a bit for someone like O'Driscoll, if only to force him to take it easy for a time as he's a player of a certain size with a certain work ethic that often lands him on the bad side of big hits and fully committed tackles. Maybe we should fine-tune the protection program so that it's only implemented for players of a certain vintage? Even if it went down that route, not many of that kind left...!

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e you need to realize Stephen Ferris is one of the biggest wind up merchants of all time. He uses 606v2 to post absolute garbage just to get a reaction.

I knew there was some similarity between Sin é and Ferris, just couldn't put my finger on it........

Standulstermen wrote:

Sin é wrote:You can't nurture an ethos of loyalty (sweating blood for your province), and then force players to rotate to Connacht/Ulster/Munster/Leinster. The ones you'd want wouldn't hang around. We held onto BOD, ROG & Paul O'Connell through that kind of loyalty.

I would think that players in Belfast on international contracts are financially compensated for the way their tax situation is in the UK in that they probably earn more than a centrally contracted player in the other provinces. (I remember reading somewhere that Stephen Ferris is the highest paid rugby player in Ireland (he might have posted it on twitter when he signed his last contract!).

Some good news anyway - Howlett is staying with Munster for another year.

I don't think ferris is on anything near O'connell or O'Driscoll and maybe even ROG depending on when he signed his last contract. He would be very highly paid though. Maybe in the next band down I would guess. Good news regarding howlett Sin. Puts the end to any lingering doubts about tommy but a back line of

Murray, ROG, Earls, Downey, Laulala, Howlett, Jones with Zebo, hanrahan, O'Dea, keatley, hurley on the wings looks quite healthy.

No fecking wonder they are hard to beat with 7 blydi wingers

Yes Rava, that blanket 7 man drift defence on the narrow channels is a biatch to pick! Especially when Mike Ross decides to have a cut at it himself......

Actually that game in Lansdowne in Oct was an excellent example of Munster being very lucky not to conceed a try due to mistakes with the oppositions offence rather than purely the success of Axle's defensive system. In saying that, I am not criticising him, but we all know that was 5 if not 7 points had Ross thrown the ball anywhere toward the touchline so long as it was flat or backwards. Two men outside him..... I despair. As a Munster fan though I was happy.

Re player welfare programme, yes, it might need to be tweaked but to suggest it has no merit whatsoever is nonsense too. Certain players, like ROG, POC & BOD while perhaps lacking match fitness etc can be dropped in after a lay off and still perform to the required level, others like say, TOL, D'Arcy, & I'd argue Heaslip too, need a 'tune up' game or even two. to get going.

However, just becuase players got injured during the warm ups or RWC, does not invalidate the programme, that's just bad luck and the nature of the game, injuries happen.

I also do not think the guys were blowing hard or were less fit than the Welsh, we just allowed two soft tries and married that to our worst defensive effort in about 2 years. And tactically Deccie did get it wrong too, as I thick he could have been brave and rolled the ROG/Sexton 10-12 axis. It couldnot possibly have done any worse than the ROG D'Arcy or Sexton D'Arxy version in defence and would have offered a bucket load more in attack. But that is depressing me.

Rava wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Sin e you need to realize Stephen Ferris is one of the biggest wind up merchants of all time. He uses 606v2 to post absolute garbage just to get a reaction.

I knew there was some similarity between Sin é and Ferris, just couldn't put my finger on it........

I think the Irish have a fitness to match most if not outdo most European sides, but I do think there is something in this Poland regime Gatland keeps going back to.

It's the same program certain Olympic athletes use to intensify training and to keep pushing the edge of those records that keep getting broken despite the limitations of the human physiology.

I'm not so sure Gatland's regime has long term benefits for individual players but I do think it is certainly giving his players the short term extra mileage, speed and strength they need to sustain a game of their tempo past the 80 minute mark.

If you can afford to take Lualua off the Blues your provinces have no money problems.

Didn't Ireland go to Poland and sit in freezers prior to the 2007 RWC? Didn't seem to help us. Maybe we were doing the wrong kind of training though. Pumping iron to much instead of building stamina?

Yes, the Irish did sit in freezers but they weren't dumb, they turned them off before they went in.

Its interesting that while that facility is world reknowned and appears to produce results, no one has built a similar version in Ireland or the UK. Is it because it is in fact not safe and potentially dangerous to the people that use it?

Gatland only wants his lads to peak for the RWC and 6Ns, while the facility seems to achieve that, he didn't seem to impressed with their conditioning after they came back from the Regions prior to the 6Ns. Was that due to poor Regions management or the Regions having to cope with the fallout of peaking and breakdown?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Its interesting that while that facility is world reknowned and appears to produce results, no one has built a similar version in Ireland or the UK. Is it because it is in fact not safe and potentially dangerous to the people that use it?

Gatland only wants his lads to peak for the RWC and 6Ns, while the facility seems to achieve that, he didn't seem to impressed with their conditioning after they came back from the Regions prior to the 6Ns. Was that due to poor Regions management or the Regions having to cope with the fallout of peaking and breakdown?

Nail on head, bandwagon. That's my feeling on it too. That's why I say I'm not so certain about long term conditioning of players in the months after the 'treatment'. I'm watching the Welsh players closely..not only now but in the weeks after the Six Nations. The jury is still out on the benefits v the side-effects.

Kingshu wrote:I wouldn't get carried away Gibson, maybe Leinster are producing more players than they can use, but this may not always be the case, Munster and Ulster have a steady flow but they don'y always produce players of th equality needed in all areas needed, so having the top players leave would be bad news, Leinster have an acamady at present that can plug the gaps the others don't and Leinsters acamady may just be having a boom and the minute a few lean years and it could be a different story.

"Once one top marque player moves abroad and sends word back, the flood-gates will open." T Bowe I'd say is a top marque player, G Murphy in his day was as well.

Irealnd has to keep the top players, but can let the sulpus move on, Pride in your Province in paramont in keeping players at home, however I see the new IRFU rules mean more players will move to different provinces, diluting this somewhat, and weaking the Provinicial Pride.

King,
And most of the rest of the posters on here - good points, well made. Decent discussion. Lets frame it. But, a point of Order (I really have to be careful here), I would not consider Ospreys or Tigers in the same light as Toulouse, ASM, Toulon or Stade - et al. They are hugely richer than the English and PRO12 Leagues. It's another World and rugby culture. Wales and England - to the Irish anyway, are like another province - in so many ways.

On the subject, I suppose it all comes down to the individual players ambitions. And how they define that. If Munster, Leinster and Ulster keep making the knock-out stages of the HC, year-on-year, make the Final and win it an odd time, this will alleviate the fear of an exodus. The money will keep rolling in and they can be afforded. If they don't... expect the adverse consequences to bite.

On an individual basis, BOD, as a prime example, was seen hanging around a few top French clubs, just before he re-signed and got a massive pay-rise to stay. He's loyal, but that loyalty has to be recompensed in proportion to his worth. He really wanted to stay and win silverware with the province he loved man and boy. And more money. 500k. Allegedly.

I forgot to add a vital part to my argument. There are very strong vibes coming from France, that some of the top Oligarchs there, are talking about a European Super League. Bath's new owner - Bruce Craig (Tigers were mentioned in the same article) is in cahoots with them and is on record as saying it will come. Not if. Just when it will come. He is investing a personal fortune in it. That, if it comes, will change the whole ball-game. Including the movement of players between the big clubs for vast sums(rugby relative) of money. I know we have a massively successfully HC. I love it. I dont want them to feic it all up. But, money and power normally gets it's way in the end. I am totally against this movement. Completely and utterly.

Back to the core subjiect, I digress. I'll put it this way, you are happily ensconced in a job in Belfast. A job that pays you 100k a year. Well enough to have a decent life, in the town you come from. And with people you grew up with. Family nearby. A French employer recognises this strong pull, but really needs your high skill levels to improve his clubs lot. And his pocket. He head-hunts you and offers you a nice Maison on the French Riviera and 400k - plus expenses.

Wouldn't you have a wee word with the Mrs on it? Just think about it. No more howling wind and rain at Ravenhill on a Friday night, Sun shining on your fisog, better food, richer culture and quality of life.

On 2nd thoughts, if it does happen and you want to stay, don't tell yer missus.

My point is - we are forgetting about the individual players in this debate. We are looking at our needs and wishes, as fans - for our provinces. Not the players needs and personal ambitions. And we are expecting the status to remain the quo, loyalty wise, to suit our needs as fans. The Human Condition will fast contradict that, if you wave the right amount of shekels and enticements in front of them. Let's not kid ourselves here. Some will go. Some will stay - based on their individual desires, sporting ambitions and circumstances. And, for some it will not be just about the money. I pray it's not an exodus.

But, I would bet ye all a drink, that Sexton and Heaslip will be in France in 2 years. And, I would not hold it against them. On the contrary, I'd respect their ambition to make a go of it, in a completely different culture. And I believe the IRFU, after an initial huff and a puff - would still play them too. It has just never been really challenged. Yet. I believe that time is fast coming. The French wolves are all over Leinster's Acadmey. As are the top English sides. We have managed to stave them off. For now.

I hope I'm wrong. My ultimate rugby dream, is a Leinster side, with XV Irish players, winning the HC. Its on. If Isa was on the bench., or if we end up with a full Irish XV on the field. I think we need to do it within 2 years.

One thing is for certain, we all want the same thing in the end. Our respective provinces and country to thrive and continually do us all proud. I just believe that financial reality, the possible restructuring of European club rugby, and our individual top players personal ambitions, will alter the way it all happens in future.

Christ, I do go on. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

Great discussion lads. Really enjoyed it.

With any bit of luck sexton will go to France so we can fast track Madigan....

Anyhow talk of a superleague is rubbish Gibson. The private French and English club owners might want something like that but the other nations are lucky to be governed by their rfu's. Not going to happen.

I can see some players leaving, but they will be the good non Intl class players. Or players who have dropped back like TOL