Freddie Burns is better than Owen Farrell....discuss

First topic message reminder :

I am certain the Gloucester fly half is the better player of the two, an absolute rugby natrural who has the all round game and tempremant to deliver at the top table.

England really do have a treasure trove of young nine's and ten's, remember that Ford was selected at 10 with Farrell at 12 in last years U20 World Cup. The previous year it was Burns and and to a lesser degree Clegg who took the U20 10 shirt.

A lot will depend on who will be coaching England and their selection policy, but hopefully whoever it will be will follow the mantra that form alone drives selection.

Kingelderfield's England backline selecection;

Simpson, Burns, Ojo, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Sharples, May

I wouldn't worry, Ben Botica will be available to save England's bacon prior to the WC anyhows. The others are just keeping his seat warm.

Nev had a very good first half of the season but a pretty average second half

Still a long way ahead of Botica though who, while he's all there in terms of talent and temperament, needs to improve the timing and range of his passing a lot.

Apparently you don't need that to become an England/Lion Flyhalf

People should not overlook the fact that Farrell is a young inexperienced player. He is talented but his form has dropped off a cliff in the last month or so. That can happen to young players.

Hes not a spectacular player but either is Johnny Wilkinson.

He was in bad form before he got selected for the tour so Gatland has to take responsibility. Then picking only two 10s was another blunder. His father being a coach had a big part in it as well as being a Gatland type 10.

Farrell could yet come good on the tour. Playing with different players and learning new patterns of play while being under pressure all the time is a lot to deal with. On top of that the service he got from Phillips was poor also.

profitius wrote:
He was in bad form before he got selected for the tour so Gatland has to take responsibility. Then picking only two 10s was another blunder. His father being a coach had a big part in it as well as being a Gatland type 10.

Only the game against Toulon to be fair. He'd had a few really big performances between the Six Nations and that game, and his attacking game was looking good on the new Saracens pitch. Since that loss his form has badly dipped though.

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't worry, Ben Botica will be available to save England's bacon prior to the WC anyhows. The others are just keeping his seat warm.

Hmmm, wonder if we could poach him back

I reckon Ian Madigan is better than all of them.

It looks like Rob Kearney may have to drop out of the squad because of injury. I suspect Gatland may call up a player that can cover both fullback and outhalf like Hook or Madigan.

Isnt it interesting how there is always a youngster with comparatively little game time who is going to be the next best thing? Farrell is only 21 but is already being written off!

Madigan and Farrell seem to have the same haircut, so thats minus points for both of them from me...

Theres Ford too, unless Bath ruin him.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't worry, Ben Botica will be available to save England's bacon prior to the WC anyhows. The others are just keeping his seat warm.

Hmmm, wonder if we could poach him back

No, though we will swap him for Cruden or Barrett. We're nice like that

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

yappysnap wrote:I wouldn't worry, Ben Botica will be available to save England's bacon prior to the WC anyhows. The others are just keeping his seat warm.

Hmmm, wonder if we could poach him back

No, though we will swap him for Cruden or Barrett. We're nice like that

How about Tyler Beyendahl? We'll throw in Chris Noakes too



I'm also quite excited by Tom Taylor - plays 10, 12 & 15, and kicks goals at 90%. A proper 2nd 5/8th, like his Dad Warwick (who was starting 12 for the 87 RWC ABs, while Frano was on the bench)

Bathman_in_London wrote:Isnt it interesting how there is always a youngster with comparatively little game time who is going to be the next best thing? Farrell is only 21 but is already being written off!

Madigan and Farrell seem to have the same haircut, so thats minus points for both of them from me...

No Madigan's is more extreme. I havent written Farrell off at all. I think he is the focus of way too much attention. Part of that is his own fault most of it is not.

Interesting thread as I was thinking that if England have a good tour of Argentina that come the AIs their backline could look quite different to the end of the 6N and the players that have been rested/gone with Lions/injured could find themselves out of favour.

Long term I see a midfield of Burns, 12trees and Tuilagi. I think Burns offers more than Farrell for all the reasons given but both are young so the race to round out their game is on. 12trees is what we need at 12 and every time I've seen him play in the flesh he's shown great class and all the attributes needed. Tuilagi has already shown a lot.

This also then means that Goode's international career is done as he is really there as he can play 2nd receiver but both Foden and Brown are better 15s. A decent showing by May, Wade or Sharples could ease Ashton and Brown out as wings as once you have got rid of Goode you are back to an attacking 15 so Brown plays there or on the bench.

I also think that after the Welsh game SL may have realised that his loyalty to players who are good triers may be misplaced as they aren't going to take England onto the next stage.

Obviously lots of ifs and being young players they will have ups and downs but this could be a big summer of change.

GunsGerms wrote:I reckon Ian Madigan is better than all of them.

It looks like Rob Kearney may have to drop out of the squad because of injury. I suspect Gatland may call up a player that can cover both fullback and outhalf like Hook or Madigan.

Madigan is an excellent player, and I would say he is ahead of Burns. He's unlucky that he joined the Irish setup a little late in comparison to Farrell for England. I think we could have seen Madigan in Farrell's place for the Lions otherwise. Interesting to see if he will get a call up as a utility player if Kearny is so unfortunate and has to return home.

Madigan's kicking from the tee is wonderful. Someone mentioned above his % is in the 90s? Exceptional stuff. Deceptively quick too