Was it a try? If you think yes then say why

First topic message reminder :

I am not biased when it comes to TMO, if it isn't a try then I won't try and defend it. Shane Williams in 08 v Scotland, amazing move, no try. Mike Phillips 2011 v Ireland, sneaky move clever thinking, but no try. Also Scotland scored a good try against Wales 2 weeks ago which should have been given.

Strettle yesterday was not a try.

Why? Because the only clear angle CLEARLY shows that by the time he gets "NEAR" the tryline, the ball is ABOVE his arm and balancing on it. If his arm was above the ball then there would be much more scope for debate. He did get very near the try line, but as he did get near the line he also got pushed back at the same time. There was no momentum downward force or grounding ESPECIALLY on the line. By the time the momentum had stopped he was a fraction behind the line, but irrespective of how far he was from the line. The ball was NOT touching it!

The replay clearly shows this.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

overlordofthewest wrote:
There is no way Strettle scored a try. Even the angle claimed, you can't see the ball hit the ground you may (if youre English) assume it until you see the other angle at the same point in time and it was nowhere near to being grounded.
This isn't a case of ' it was a try but wasn't seen so couldn't be given' more a case of it clearly wasn't a try as CAN be seen by the video evidence. Walsh was being generous going to the Tmo as he clearly stated he didn't think it was a try but the assistant ref wasn't 100% at the time.

Yeah way to go in trying to turn this into a " England vs Wales bickering thread.

If you bothered to read teh previous responses youd see the last peopel to say they thought it was or could have been grounded were two welshmen, a south african, and an Irish chap.

Im not objecting to your view that theres no direct evidnce it was grounded, Im onjecting to your assertion that people are claiming it may have been simply because they are English ( like Shane Williams for example)

The debate on here about it has been very open and fair minded with most people fitting into a concencous, much more so than on most issues. We could do without posters like yourself trying to project your own predjudice onto other people.

Ok for one, I wasn't trying to turn this into any sort of wales vs england thread. The only reason I rather tongue in cheek - and bracketed! - the unless youre english bit thats got you so worked up was because we were playing england. Nothing more and nothing less. If I were trying to get a rise I'd be a lot less subtle than that. As for my prejudices, come on. I gave my opinion nothing more. Apologies if I appeared prejudiced (on this thread ) it wasn't intended.
My point stands though. The ball was not grounded over the line and the video evidence supports this. No try, not really much to debate. The other tries I mentioned however have video evidence supporting how they could/should have been given. Those who are now sanctimoniously stating it was a try - but I can see why the ref couldn't give it etc are full of ..it. The ref couldn't give it as there was no try.Even if the ref had until today to review all the evidence and supposed new footage there remains not a single piece of evidence thats shows the ball being grounded over the line. It shows it being held up though in every available angle with every available shot.

Soooooooooo!

The debate continues.

biltongbek wrote:Soooooooooo!

The debate continues.

Si, amigo. Methinks tis time to let it go.
Clearly, England were the victim of a Welsh conspiracy in that match which took 79 minutes to unfold. Will be spoken of throught the ages. That is my final word on the subject.

ditto. did that hooker ever arrive?

I cant believe this is still going to be honest

eirebilly wrote:I cant believe this is still going to be honest

It's going mate, just not going anywhere.

I am impressed that it has survived this long, nearly a week

I thought that only us Irish could talk in circles for weeks on end. These boys are catching up to our waffling abilities

True, but usually the Irish waffling will be about blaming themselves.

biltongbek wrote:ditto. did that hooker ever arrive?

NO! Maybe she got lost looking for Steve Walsh?

Yeah but its not the content biltong, its the waffling ability and these boys are catching up on us very quickly.

May have to start a new Sexton v ROG or an Earles at 13 thread to reassert our waffling dominance

Oh, yeah, perhaps I spoke too soon.

Sexytoes vs Revolving 'O Gate.

Cant have these whipper snappers competing with our waffling abilities, the shame of it all

Well if an Irishman and South African didn't keep bumping it to the top of the list, it might get forgotten... Ooops.

My bad.

Morning fellas.

That was a good shot, mate. Especially when you direct it at them.

Morning PJ.

I hate Irony, it always comes back to haunt me

There is this joke about the Irishman, South African and englishman.......................


Err, maybe there should be one.

as ive said before, even if it was a try england still lost.

dogtooth wrote:as ive said before, even if it was a try england still lost.

How dare you try to bring this thread back on subject? The match is over, the result in the books for all time. But the complaining lives for ever.
Wouldn't you rather hear about the time the Irishman, South African and the Englishman went onto a bar........

Sounds a bit messy to me Doc.

Thnink your right. If anyone could make a good joke about that, they deserve an award.

I'll have a go at it.


An Englishman, Irishman, and South African walks into a bar in Sydney, all looking rather unhappy. It seems they are carrying the weight of a country on their shoulders.

The Irishman turns to the Englishman and says " Do you think we will get in trouble for sitting in the pub this late?"

















Andrew Strauss turns to Morgan and Trott and says "Drink up boys, we need to get back to our hotel room."

brilliant!!!!!!

an englishman, an irishman and a southafrican walk into a bar.

the barman says, 'what is this, some kind of joke?'

dogtooth wrote:an englishman, an irishman and a southafrican walk into a bar.

the barman says, 'what is this, some kind of joke?'

overlordofthewest wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

overlordofthewest wrote:
There is no way Strettle scored a try. Even the angle claimed, you can't see the ball hit the ground you may (if youre English) assume it until you see the other angle at the same point in time and it was nowhere near to being grounded.
This isn't a case of ' it was a try but wasn't seen so couldn't be given' more a case of it clearly wasn't a try as CAN be seen by the video evidence. Walsh was being generous going to the Tmo as he clearly stated he didn't think it was a try but the assistant ref wasn't 100% at the time.

Yeah way to go in trying to turn this into a " England vs Wales bickering thread.

If you bothered to read teh previous responses youd see the last peopel to say they thought it was or could have been grounded were two welshmen, a south african, and an Irish chap.

Im not objecting to your view that theres no direct evidnce it was grounded, Im onjecting to your assertion that people are claiming it may have been simply because they are English ( like Shane Williams for example)

The debate on here about it has been very open and fair minded with most people fitting into a concencous, much more so than on most issues. We could do without posters like yourself trying to project your own predjudice onto other people.

Ok for one, I wasn't trying to turn this into any sort of wales vs england thread. The only reason I rather tongue in cheek - and bracketed! - the unless youre english bit thats got you so worked up was because we were playing england. Nothing more and nothing less. If I were trying to get a rise I'd be a lot less subtle than that. As for my prejudices, come on. I gave my opinion nothing more. Apologies if I appeared prejudiced (on this thread ) it wasn't intended.
My point stands though. The ball was not grounded over the line and the video evidence supports this. No try, not really much to debate. The other tries I mentioned however have video evidence supporting how they could/should have been given. Those who are now sanctimoniously stating it was a try - but I can see why the ref couldn't give it etc are full of ..it. The ref couldn't give it as there was no try.Even if the ref had until today to review all the evidence and supposed new footage there remains not a single piece of evidence thats shows the ball being grounded over the line. It shows it being held up though in every available angle with every available shot.

OK apology accepted , butyoure still wrong :p . Theres one angle that claealry shows it could have been grounded, and still photos suggesting it may have been. None of the other video angles cover it clealry, although someone has posted a still from that that shows very ambiguously the ball may have been touched down.
As we all say theres no comeplete evidence the try was scored ( I dont take Strettles word for it any more than I take Cuetos, no matter how genuine they are people can be wrong), but the case isnt proven the other way either. I agree with you that theres no way the try could have been given ( unless we were playing rugby league) but its just as incorrect to state its a certain no try.

miteyironpaw wrote:For me the most important thing, given the margin of error in the actual result is to forget the outcome on the scoreboard and look at the performance.

Steve Hansen? Is that you?

miteyironpaw wrote:England were capable of winning the game on the day and considering all the Welsh were concerned with "smashing" and "humiliating us" I think it is at least a moral victory in having proven ourselves within a referees tough call of victory.

Er, I think you mean you were within a 'referee's tough call' of needing to land a conversion to salvage a draw.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:For me the most important thing, given the margin of error in the actual result is to forget the outcome on the scoreboard and look at the performance.

Steve Hansen? Is that you?

miteyironpaw wrote:England were capable of winning the game on the day and considering all the Welsh were concerned with "smashing" and "humiliating us" I think it is at least a moral victory in having proven ourselves within a referees tough call of victory.

Er, I think you mean you were within a 'referee's tough call' of needing to land a conversion to salvage a draw.

Actually Strettle said he was sure Flood would have got it so we can take that as a given as well. Listen to the interview, it was a try ..it was converted. England won that game 19-19, no amount of Welsh desperatism (yeah thats a word) can take that away from Strettle.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Actually Strettle said he was sure Flood would have got it so we can take that as a given as well. Listen to the interview, it was a try ..it was converted. England won that game 19-19, no amount of Welsh desperatism (yeah thats a word) can take that away from Strettle.

Well played sir.

It was clearly a try. The ref and his incompetent assistants were useless. The BBC even showed a 'new' camera angle that was not shown during the TMO fiasco, that shows beyond doubt that it was a try.

Still the TMO said it wasn't. Just like the ref said North didn't bat the ball in to touch and that wales didn't knock on just before he gave Wales a penalty and so on.

England was robbed by a group of ineffectual idiots masquerading as experienced rugby officials. It certainly wasn't the welsh team as they were comprehensively outplayed.

englandglory4ever wrote:It was clearly a try. The ref and his incompetent assistants were useless. The BBC even showed a 'new' camera angle that was not shown during the TMO fiasco, that shows beyond doubt that it was a try.

Still the TMO said it wasn't. Just like the ref said North didn't bat the ball in to touch and that wales didn't knock on just before he gave Wales a penalty and so on.

England was robbed by a group of ineffectual idiots masquerading as experienced rugby officials. It certainly wasn't the welsh team as they were comprehensively outplayed.

Bat the ball into touch? Well Wales deserved to lose if North was carrying a bat all along. I'd be worried as an England fan if you "comprehensively outplayed" us butty, as a draw still doesn't flatter you at 'Fortress HQ'. Never mind though Chief, you are developing obviously. You might score a try created off your own attacking ability soon? Don't hold your breath though x

...and there endeth the lesson.

Has anyone noted the nationality of the TMO?

Why would that matter? Do some nationalities have a third eye that sees beyond the video footage?

Tell us more fartbast.

I think the video shows that the ball probably touched the ground, and that it was probably over the line when it did. However, at the moment this happens (if it did happen) I cannot see how Strettle could possibly have had any downward pressure on the ball.

People are concentrating on whether it touched the ground but are forgetting the downward pressure aspect. Anyone with me here?

Either way, it is such a close call that while I don't think the english should complain (to be fair- most aren't), if the call had gone the other way I don't think us Welsh would be in a position to complain either- it really was 50/50.

Nope, you don't need any doenward pressure if you're in control of the ball, downward pressure only matters if the ball is loose and you're chasing it trying to touch it down.

It was a fair result and it's time to move on now.

PJ is correct.

Why don't people just read the laws in the law book before they express an opinion if they are not entirely sure? In fact, why not check the law book even if you think you are sure?

In this case 22.1

http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_22_EN.pdf

In fairness this is one of those bogey phantom laws that commentators and pundits who should know better often get wrong week in and week out.

mighty ghost paw, you have to move on dude. its been a week now. i am seriously starting to worry about you.

how long did we bang on about that red card that was never a red and cost us a crucial game because we would cirtainly have won that and got into the final and probably beaten newzealand, but you dont hear us welsh going on and on and on about that totaly unjustified and unjustifiable red, do you?




oh, well maybe a bit.

go on paws, gripe away. (but it wasnt a try, kid. sorry)

dogtooth wrote:mighty ghost paw, you have to move on dude. its been a week now. i am seriously starting to worry about you.

how long did we bang on about that red card that was never a red and cost us a crucial game because we would cirtainly have won that and got into the final and probably beaten newzealand, but you dont hear us welsh going on and on and on about that totaly unjustified and unjustifiable red, do you?




oh, well maybe a bit.

go on paws, gripe away. (but it wasnt a try, kid. sorry)

I'm not talking about whether it's a try or not, I'm talking about posters making up laws as they go along and using them to justify assertions about the game.

miteyironpaw wrote:PJ is correct.
In this case 22.1
http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_22_EN.pdf
In fairness this is one of those bogey phantom laws that commentators and pundits who should know better often get wrong week in and week out.

Strange thing, this. One of the most basic laws in Rugby - how to score. Yet, many, many people keep going back to the downward pressure thing. Its clear in the laws and everyone who plays should know this. Yet, commonly misunderstood. Glad you posted the link.

miteyironpaw wrote:I'm not talking about whether it's a try or not, I'm talking about posters making up laws as they go along and using them to justify assertions about the game.

Congratulations Mitey, you are the first poster on here to get personal towards me (though it was always likely to be you or Hersh). I held a common misconception that downward pressure was required in scoring. A poster politely informed me that I was mistaken, and I am glad thatthey did as I no longer hold this misconception (though a lot of people I know, players included, still do).

Then you come on and accuse me of making up laws to justify assertations. This is unpleasent and I think says something about your character and why you come on here. Well done again.

Don't mind him irfon, he has previous for it, it's nowt personal, he just never got smacked as a kid.

PJHolybloke wrote:Don't mind him irfon, he has previous for it, it's nowt personal, he just never got smacked as a kid.

PJHolybloke wrote:Don't mind him irfon, he has previous for it, it's nowt personal, he just never got smacked as a kid.

form an orderly queue

I doubt there's enough room dogtooth, perhaps we should ask for a 606v2 annexe?

irfon17 wrote:

miteyironpaw wrote:I'm not talking about whether it's a try or not, I'm talking about posters making up laws as they go along and using them to justify assertions about the game.

Congratulations Mitey, you are the first poster on here to get personal towards me (though it was always likely to be you or Hersh). I held a common misconception that downward pressure was required in scoring. A poster politely informed me that I was mistaken, and I am glad thatthey did as I no longer hold this misconception (though a lot of people I know, players included, still do).

Then you come on and accuse me of making up laws to justify assertations. This is unpleasent and I think says something about your character and why you come on here. Well done again.

There's a rash of rash people making deductions based on false information. Nothing personal, I just find it annoying.

E45?

If I have to be the steroidal anti-inflamatory ointment of 606v2 and some people have a bad reaction, then sobeit. I can't stand lazy posting.

Fair point miteycanestenpaw, smite them with your anti-yeast infection based rationale, lazy rash-inducing feckpigs deserve everything they catch.

Perhaps those with thin skins should avoid contact, as per doctors advice.