The Povetkin Situation

Having watched the recent Povetkin v Huck clash I cant say my opinion has changed drastically. I have never thought Povetkin has the beating of a Klitschko, but I was hoping he would lay down some kind of marker that might convince me otherwise. As it was, his rather underwhelming and workmanlike narrow win over Huck seemed to just serve as a reminder of the chasm that exists between the best and the rest. Credit must go to Huck who put in a strong showing in his first heavyweight outing and looks like he can compete there. But it begs the question - is it better to be a champion in the cruiserweight division or just another guy in the heavyweight division with very little chance of becoming a champion?

I have been quite critical of Povetkin in the past for what I think is his consistent refusal to step up and challenge the Klitschkos. But the fight over the wekend made me reconsider my position somewhat and brings me to my main point. How acceptable is it for a challenger to duck a champion?

Ignoring the phoney title Povetkin has, which has to be the most hollow of all boxing titles around at the moment. He is basically a "challenger" to the Klitschkos "champion" status. As fans its quite easy to say he should step up and fight the Klitschkos but how much consideration should be given to the defence that is he just isnt ready/good enough? Is it obligatory to some extent to throw someone to the wolves simply because they are next in line or have the best credentials? Our own Henry Cooper or example was kept away from Sonny Liston in an act of mercy as much as lacking in ambition. When one is a champion I think it goes without saying that he should be obliged to defend his title against the most worthy challengers if he wants to be seen as a genuine champion. But its less obvious when its in reverse.

Ultimately I still think Povetkin should step up and take his shot. I would like to think that he has the self belief to challenge and he is at the age an stage in his career where its hard to use the "not ready" excuse because if he isnt ready now he most likely never will be. Which is probably the reality. I also dont think a loss should have too much of an impact on his career, if any. But having considered the other side of the argument I do think its not as straightforward as I once thought. If you were Povetkins trainer/manager and you genuinely felt he couldnt beat a Klitschko what would you do? How obliged should a challenger be to challenge the champion?

You can probably guess my views on this Manos but for me anyone calling themselves a world champion has a certain responsbility that comes with that title, and first and foremost amongst these is you are willing to try and prove yourself the best in the world should the opportunity arise. Was Povetkin wearing a domestic or intercontinental belt I would have no issue with him basically saying he is not of the level to fight the brothers, but for a world champion it simply doesn't sit right with me otherwise it reduces world title belts to little more than marketing tools.

I think the fight showed at the weekend that he has no chance. He is no spring chicken though at 32/33, i honestly thought he was a lot younger. With this in mind there is every chance that Wladimir could still be fighting when Povetkin is ready to retire, i don't think Vitali will be around long but surely their plan isn't to wait around, like i say i didn't realise he was so old. He needs to step up to the plate and fight one of them. I would watch a Huck rematch though i thought he was going to get him out there at the end, another 30 secs i reckon he would have finished him.

Huck pushed him hard and shook him up a few times, this clearly shows that Povetkin is nowhere near the Klitschko's level, he would get destroyed.

Or more likely lose a 3 x 120-108 if he keeps ducking down every time a punch looked like being thrown.

He is definitely not Der Weltmeister.

Here's a hypothetical situation that shows the sorry state of things, if for example Vitali beat Povetkin, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the WBA would then promote Vitali to Super Champion (yes, then there would be two of those), and free up the 'regular' title again, which could then go to the winner of the Huck/Povetkin rematch.

Union Cane wrote:Huck pushed him hard and shook him up a few times, this clearly shows that Povetkin is nowhere near the Klitschko's level, he would get destroyed.

Or more likely lose a 3 x 120-108 if he keeps ducking down every time a punch looked like being thrown.

He is definitely not Der Weltmeister.

Here's a hypothetical situation that shows the sorry state of things, if for example Vitali beat Povetkin, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the WBA would then promote Vitali to Super Champion (yes, then there would be two of those), and free up the 'regular' title again, which could then go to the winner of the Huck/Povetkin rematch.

Or, if Wlad beat Povetkin he would then hold both the "regular" and "super" versions of the WBA world title. Thus leading the WBA to create the "ordinary" WBA world title.

rowley wrote:You can probably guess my views on this Manos but for me anyone calling themselves a world champion has a certain responsbility that comes with that title, and first and foremost amongst these is you are willing to try and prove yourself the best in the world should the opportunity arise. Was Povetkin wearing a domestic or intercontinental belt I would have no issue with him basically saying he is not of the level to fight the brothers, but for a world champion it simply doesn't sit right with me otherwise it reduces world title belts to little more than marketing tools.

Yeah I see the point, although Im inclined to place far more blame on the WBA for even spawning such a ridiculous concept of "regular" and "super" world champions.

Got to agree Manos, you can hardly blame the fighters or promoters, if a situation exists where a guy can pick up a European title and defend it for £100k a pop or a "world" belt and pick up £1m a defence with little risk of having to face guys who pose a genuine threat to him losing whether we like it or not is does appear to be something of a no brainer, no matter how unpleasant it is to us fans.

I was impressed with Povetkin a few years ago and honestly thought he would push on and at least give the Klits a fight. Especially after his showings against Byrd and Chambers. But that was 4 years ago and he looks like he's missed his opportunity now. His level of opponent has decreased and he looks to have also regressed.

If Huck could do that to him, I wonder what Haye would do.

Put quite simply Povetkin is not very good. He's never been anywhere near the K bros and never will be, he's on a par with Haye, Arreola, Chambers, Adamek but he's got a fake belt and they haven't is the only difference.

I have a feeling Povetkin will try to round off his career protecting his "0" and fighting oldsters and cruisers for the "regular" title up to retirement, afterall he's 32, so you could see him doing six more fights and wrapping it up.

He's even said that "a world champion is a world champion", so the fact he's viewed as a fake by everyone apart from stupidly easy to please Russian and German fans probably doesn't bother him a jot, especially if he's paid well.

I think Povetkin is better than what we seen, I wouldn't write him off just yet. Even Wlad and Vitali have had bad nights in the past.

I think he may have underestimated (think we all did) Huck.

He seemed to gas pretty easy, but in the past he has shown good stamina so I don't think he will be wanting to make the same mistake again.

Call it a learning curve, but I will wait to see how he gets on this year before I start shooting him down.

I think with Povetkin though, the point is he should have finished the learning curve by now. It may well have been an off night for him, hes certainly looked better in previous outings, but I have never seen anything that makes me think he would beat either Klitschko. Vitali, at 40 and carrying an injury was considered to have a off night against Chisora but won almost every round. Povetkin on an off night almost lost to Huck. That highlights the kind of gap thats out there.

With Povetkin, hes 32 now. Hes had extensive amateur experience, hes been a pro now for many years. People are asking why isnt he stepping up to challenge the Klitschkos? On the other end the answer seems to be hes still not ready or qualified enough to win. Im just wondering how valid a reason people find this?

My own view is he probably thought, perhaps not unreasonably, when he picked up the belt is one or both of the brothers would have retired or regressed to the point they would be ripe for taking out and he would be in the box seat to take over when this happened. That neither of these things have happened or certainly not enough to make Povetkin anything other than an outsider he finds himself in a bit of a fix, does he take the chance and lose or continue to milk his belt and be a bit of a laughing stock, would appear he has chosen the latter route. But as you have said Manos the real farce in all this is the system that allows this to happen.

Using the "he's not ready" excuse suggests that his team think that, at some stage, he will be ready.

He is 32, so he is not going to suddenly become quicker, stonger, or a better fighter.

The "not ready" can only refer then to the fact that they think that the Klitschko's (Klitschkoes?) are going to deteriorate down to Povetkin's level, at which point he will then be "ready".

It is a ridiculous situation, but not of his own making, and as long as he is filling arenas fighting against cruiserweights and being introduced as Der Weltmeister why should he do anything different?

Vitali retires, Wlad fights the WBC's number one contender Chris Arreola for the title, and becomes the 'undisputed' champion, whilst Povetkin defends his world title against the likes of Ola Afolabi and Denis Lebedev.

It is, frankly, a joke.

rowley wrote:My own view is he probably thought, perhaps not unreasonably, when he picked up the belt is one or both of the brothers would have retired or regressed to the point they would be ripe for taking out and he would be in the box seat to take over when this happened. That neither of these things have happened or certainly not enough to make Povetkin anything other than an outsider he finds himself in a bit of a fix, does he take the chance and lose or continue to milk his belt and be a bit of a laughing stock, would appear he has chosen the latter route. But as you have said Manos the real farce in all this is the system that allows this to happen.

Im not even a sure a loss, at least to Wlad anyway, would actually set Povetkin back much. Wlad might get upgraded to the super duper WBA champion but Im not sure if Povetkin would even lose his "regular" belt. Worst case scenario is it becomes vacant again and Povetkin is installed to fight for the vacant regular title again. His regular title might not even be on the line as I cant see either Klitschko really caring enough about it to want it.

Does anyone know what does happen when a "super champion" wins a "regular" belt? I can't think of any instances of this happening before off the top of my head

PatientFist wrote:Does anyone know what does happen when a "super champion" wins a "regular" belt? I can't think of any instances of this happening before off the top of my head

I cant either. My guess would be the regular title just becomes vacant.

It's a bit like when a "champion in recess" beats a "silver champion".

Or summat...

How about Haye v Huck?


Bottom line is Haye needs to take a step back to get Vitali right or wrong?


Will insult but won't fight Chisora(surprise surprise) because he's a 'loser,' though Chisora's just given Vitali his toughest fight since Lennox. Mmmm


But Huck is a cruiserweight like Haye and the public like evenly matched contests. Could be an explosive fight this, give Haye a chance to get back some credibility but the Huck right hand could mess up Haye's plans. Good fight

Would be a great fight, unfortunately David has no plans to fight anyone other than a Klitschko, he could have some good scraps and i would make him favourite against the chasing pack including Povetkin.

The annoying thing is Haye has plenty of people he could fight at Heavyweight to earn public respect, but he wont...

-> Povetkin
-> Huck
-> Chisora
-> Areola
-> Adamek

Just to name a few!

Problem is also - haye contributes eff all to boxing he wants his win then to retire. I'd rather have an arthritic vitali than none at all.

Agreed boxingfan. Is anyone saying that based on last night's performance - Haye wouldn't beat Povetkin?

Its a possibility based on workrate - but I'd still back Haye to have enough to come through any test Povetkin offered.

Problem comes when we start talking of a Kbro matchup - and then naturally, we have to think of how Huck's jab - something so ponderous that it failed to control a centimetre of space against Lebedev (hardly a world beater) who was shamefully robbed on the judges scorecards - and yet that selfsame jab - just about a year later - was able to completely control Povetkin. And he had no answer to Huck's heavy right hand - Wlad's is a heavier punch.

It is my opinion that it is acceptable to just be a challenger all your career - a gatekeeper figure if you will - who doesn't chase Kbro level fights. It is not acceptable to do this whilst holding any sort of "world" title.

I still wouldnt be convinced Haye beats Povetkin.

manos de piedra wrote:I still wouldnt be convinced Haye beats Povetkin.

Normally, I'd agree with you - and in the past I have accused Haye of (avoiding - in the literal sense - rather than in any sense of "ducking") his major challengers to be the #3 HW - like Povetkin, like Adamek.

However - last night - Povetkin's defence against the hard right hand seemed to be non-existent. His conditioning was woeful - and he was blowing far too early.

Against Haye, I'll go with the idea that maybe his conditioning would be good enough to last the fight because he'd train harder. And also in his favour is the fact that a high punch volume style is kryptonite for Haye.

However - downsides include the fact that he is far too easy to hit - Haye's right hand is a quicker, better weapon than Huck's (in my opinion) - and therefore - where Huck was able to land with damage - the Haye of Ruiz should be.

Of course - there is the point that Ruiz was woeful and Haye hasn't really proven as a HW he can deliver against someone of Povetkin's calibre - but I wouldn't want to make that point on your article manos - as Waingro would shout at me for a day or two because of it.

For me Haye knocks Povetkin out and a bit early at that. Couldnt deal with slowish wild overhands, how would he deal with Hayes quicker and more powerful attacks, he wouldn't.

I think you have to sperate Haye the cruiserweight from Haye the heavyweight when you look at these fights. Ive never been able to shake the feeling that Hayes boxing ability is largely overrated and too much emphasis put on his speed and power.

Haye was a big, powerful cruiserweight. His ower at the weight was considerable and as a result he could fight a certain way. He was normally the physically bigger and more powerful guy in the ring so he was more of a stalker and it was the other guy who had to be careful and was being ambushed.

At heavyweight its a whole different story. He rarely enjoys those physical advantages. Hes usually the smaller man. And it hasnt been apparently clear that his power has translated across the weights. Hes not a weak heavyweight, but hes nowhere near the devastating hitter he was at cruiserweight and from a position of being a bigger man in his fights he is now often the smaller and lighter man. At cruiserweight his big weapon was his power. Now at heavyweight the focus sees to have switched to speed and elusiveness.

One of the worries I have about Haye is because he was a power merchant at cruiserweight, he didnt have to rely on much else. His actual boxing ability wasnt as important because he could take opponents out. This isnt the case at heavyweight. We know he cant/wont outwork someone like Povetkin, we know he cant outmuscle him. Can he outbox him? Im not sure, jury is out. Can he knock him out? I would say yes but nowhere as easily as he could against cruiserweights. Hes also likely to spend most of the fight on the back foot.

I still think there are alot of unanswered questions about Haye at heavyweight that a fight with someone like Povetkin would answer. Povetkin is a good heavyweight. His record at the weight is probably superior to Hayes. The likes of Chambers, Byrd, Chagaev, Donald, Huck are probably superior to the wins Haye has at the weight. When you have a fighter like Haye whos power and size at a weight is a massive part of their game and you move them into a weight where these advantages are significantly diminished then there is a big risk factor. I wouldnt have a problem with Haye being considered a favourite against Povetkin but Id by no means be convinced its a surefire win for him.

I would bet my house that Haye hits harder at Heavyweight than Huck, who had Povetkin shaken a fair few times, much quicker also and it wasnt as though he had massive trouble finding the chin.

Too much is made of Haye being outworked, you would think by some comments Haye throws 1 punch a round. Against a guy who isn't 6 foot flippin' 8 and someone who isn't as rangy he's fine, Ruiz was a bit worn but he showed good skill against him and although he isn't 100 punches a round his punch output was relatively ok.

Ask Bonin or Barret if Haye doesn't hit hard or Ruiz who is basically a walking chin, no doubt the responses will be bum, bum and past it, which means they can't take HW punches... Bonin had a padded record but was not a bum a decent competant HW, Barret also a very solid HW, both were basically floored by any clean punch taken.

Barret was knocked out by valuev mate, Ruiz outjabbed haye. RUIZ. Povetkin gives him nightmares - haye wins if his power is enough - but I doubt it is. Ruiz audley and bonin was tkoed by audley harrison

If Harrison lands on you that left of his you would quite literally be laughing at the other side of your face.

Bonin, Barret and Ruiz are not in the same class as Povetkin. Hayes workrate is low at heavyweight and his style is to stay on the backfoot. Huck was able to find Povetkin and hurt him on occasion but his style is completely different to Haye. He had to absorb alot of punishment himself, had to stand in front of Povetkin to land his own shots and had to physically contest with him. Its unlikely Haye does any of this. All evidence point to him doing his usually circling around the outside on the backfoot. He has no inside game if Povetkin gets close, he probably cant absorb the same kind of punishement Huck took. There are lots of question marks precisely because Povetkin is the kind of standad fighter Haye has been unwilling to test himself against.

AlexHuckerby wrote:If Harrison lands on you that left of his you would quite literally be laughing at the other side of your face.

Thats true but to be fair I havent recieved my taxi license yet.

Not saying they are but the man has well enough to KO most HWs.

Hucks leaping right landed a bit easy, someone who can get that type of shot to the target better, quicker, sharper with more power is Haye. He also took a few flush rights from Wlad who sure as hell hits harder than Povetkin. We don't know how he would deal with accumulative punches but I don't think Haye has to deal with that against Povetkin anyway.

It is very competetive in a sense but don't see Haye ever losing it.

ShahenshahG wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:If Harrison lands on you that left of his you would quite literally be laughing at the other side of your face.

Thats true but to be fair I havent recieved my taxi license yet.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Brilliant. Also, Haye i think would absolutely smash EVERY heavyweight except K bros and Chisora ..........what?!

ShahenshahG wrote:Problem is also - haye contributes eff all to boxing he wants his win then to retire. I'd rather have an arthritic vitali than none at all.

Here, Here. Haye riding off into the sunset aftern knocking out Wlad was something I was desperate not to see and thankfully Wlad shut him down and shut him up. Haye gives nothing to the sport except insults and controversy.

Super D Boon wrote:Put quite simply Povetkin is not very good. He's never been anywhere near the K bros and never will be, he's on a par with Haye, Arreola, Chambers, Adamek but he's got a fake belt and they haven't is the only difference.

This is about the size of it. He's just not that good. I think Haye would wipe him out. I think Adamek would outbox him. I think the new, leaner, more focused Arreola would give him a torrid time. Chambers and Povetkin are probably about even. And none of these guys come close to either Klitschko. The brothers are both great champions, but the sooner they retire, the better.

Just watched the Povetkin vs Huck fight online. I scored the fight 115-113 in favour of the challenger.

Also, had the fight been 1 minute longer, Povetkin would DEFINATELY been knocked out either by Huck or by the breeze in the arena.

A complete paper champ, not worthy of the crown, but saying that, how many paper champs are there?

Please discuss

d260005p wrote:
A complete paper champ, not worthy of the crown, but saying that, how many paper champs are there?

There is only one paper champ. Won Park.

Spoiler:

The Millennium Falcon one rocks

Thats incredibly witty I must admit, Tina.

I scored it the same D2, I wouldnt mind seeing a rematch.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Thats incredibly witty I must admit, Tina.

Welcome to my world, Alex.

to be fair to povetkin he did take on a world champion, and he's not a huge heavyweight himself so it was a credible opponent.

i think povetkin is within his rights to wait a while before he takes on a klitschko brother. he is stuck in a division where nobody yet has the talent to beat the two brothers who share all the credible titles, and are more like super heavy weights. beating one would be an acheivement, beating them both would be nay on impossible so the chance to make huge amounts of money is a lot more difficult, so he needs to sensible and plan properly. he can either chuck himself into a beating and end up at the bottom of the pack again, or fight through the remaining contenders (helenius, adamek, arreroa, chisora, fury, price would all be good fights) earn a bit of money and gain a bit of experience, and then challenge for a major title when better positioned to do so.

i think the major reason the heavyweight division is how it is, is because all the challengers are either way past their prime, or even worse, thrown in way to early.

"Ignoring the phoney title Povetkin has, which has to be the most hollow of all boxing titles around at the moment."

Isn't the Chavez Jnr situation identical though?

Hasim Rahman, whose only claim to fame was a ko of a very complacent Lennox Lewis 11yrs ago, has been named as Povetkin's mandatory so no chance of him fighting anyone worthwhile for some time.
Joke of a situation

Sergio Martinez is the linear WBC middleweight champion (he beat Pavlik who beat Taylor who beat Hopkins...) but was given the "Diamond" belt so that JCCJr could be awarded the 'regular' belt / title / bauble / strap / crown.

Klitschko / Povetkin will never happen as Povetkin brings a title to the table so will want a bigger cut, despite the fact that Wlad took that same title off David Haye.

As you say KC, it's a joke.

The boxing belts in general are a complete joke - just like Bob Arum.

povetkin is a makeshift man, he's happy beating fighters who are ranked 14th in their native country, surely even borat is ranked higher in kazakhstan.