You can tell how good a team is by its 'bench'

Time and time again england bring fringe bowlers in to the team(all formats) and they perform at the highest level, finn, dernbach, monty, bresnan, patel are some of our bowlers that proove fighting for places is what its all about. no team in teh world has our strenght in depth! they perform and perform.

massive respect to our bowlers- if only we had the same scenario going on with our batting!!

I know people dont like my thinking of dropping mogs to CC for a while to not only find his feet- but also to give us a chance to check out some other talent!!, and i know we are in a very good position bowling wise- but it certainly goes to show that cricket (all formats) is about the squad not the first team- we need to find batsman that can just come in and perform!!

Bowling wise are strength in depth is unparalled at the moment. Only SA and Pakistan, who always seem to have decent quickies coming through, get anywhere close. Although Aus could be up there very soon.

Their is the other side to the coin though; batting wise are bench is comparitively weak. Look at the Test side, Morgan has performed badly in this Test series against Pakistan but who would you have come in for him? Bopara, been there before with all the false dawns, still not convinced. Taylor (who I am sure will make a fine Test cricketer one day) has had an average tour with the Lions. Buttler? Bairstow? No confidence in them coming into the Test team.

So bowling wise, yes, are strength is depth is nigh on ridiculous. Seamers of the calibre of Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Finn, Tremlett and Onions are all proven Test performers, been there done that and can be relied on to come in and do a good job. Batting wise, I'm yet to be convinced.

To be fair Australia's seam cupboard is looking pretty good at the moment: Harris, Siddle, Cummins, Hilfenhaus (who has got his nip back), Starc and of course Pattinson all look good ATM.

And SA aren't bad with Steyn, Philander, Morkel, De Lange, Tsotsobe.

But yes England with Anderson, Broad, Tremlett, Bresnan, Finn and Onions. Not too shabby.

I don't like your "drop Morgan" idea because I don't think England should drop their best middle-order bat (in ODIs) just to see what else is out there. It is, frankly, a stupid idea.

I think mogs is out of form, i think he is potentially good at all formats- i dont think he is gonna just perform at the odi level and not at others. Thats the difference of opinion!

The biggest concern with teh mogs has been our best odi batsman argument- is that through the last couple of years he has been good( yet england havent won a bean!! we went down to the lowly depths of 6th in the world, he may have been a performer amongst non performers- but what has it acheived on a team level!!

big shake up was needed- great to see cook in the side , opening with kp, england have the players to be best in every format going- we just need to start finding the fringe batters(well at least see if we have them)

Aus's problem is their quicks keep getting broken.

Add dernbach, woakes and shazzad to englands stable for limited overs, you begin to see why they are so good. They have many speacilists for different conditions and games.

Pakistan though kill them for spin options, most notably as all round players. Im really not that impressed by Patel who seems to be a bit of a role filler for England. Theres the young lad Briggs who did well enough in his opportunity but is totaly unproven, then Pannesar for tests.

If England want to try out more options in ODIs and T20 then its guys like Buttler and Patel who need to be shot not morgan at the moment. In tests is another matter. The golden boy Taylor has had a bit of a wobble over the winter, whilst Mogs is under threat there Bopara is probably next in lione...and Im sure that fills many England supporters with dread.

I'm warming to Patel personally, he really seems to have worked on his fitness (though he's still the weakest of the England side in the field by some way, he'd be comfortably in the average of the Pakistani side and probably one of the best of the Indians), he's a decent batsman in limited overs cricket too (useful cameo today, did well in the ODIs too). In T20s he fulfills a useful role, as he can get through four overs quickly and (usually) cheaply.

My doubt is more over whether he is good enough to deliver ten overs in ODIs in most matches. I think in subcontinent conditions he can do that pretty well, but the next world cup is in Australia and NZ, and I'm not convinced he'll be effective there. I can honestly see England opt for the "Bresnan Broad Swann at 7-8-9" route. Backed up by Finn and one other, and that looks a very mean bowling attack.

On topic, England clearly have the best strength in depth of any current side in the seam bowling department (Australia's actually looks next best to me, but they seem to struggle with injuries), and the spin cupboard while not as well stocked as Pakistan's looks pretty decent too with Swann backed up by Panesar/Briggs (who impressed me on his ODI debut) and the young Borthwick waiting in the wings.

Actually Australia probably have the best strength in depth of any current test nation in the world at the moment in terms of seam/fast bowling as a player of the calibre of Mitchell Johnson cannot even get into their test starting XI now.

gboycottnut wrote:Actually Australia probably have the best strength in depth of any current test nation in the world at the moment in terms of seam/fast bowling as a player of the calibre of Mitchell Johnson cannot even get into their test starting XI now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoGpmqrJMk




Mad4 ...England always look to get a left arm slow ( its a big much to call him a spinner) in their side somehow, thats why I call Patel a role filler..as Yardy was before him. Slow options are a huge part of limited overs cricket now, and England have this left arm slow mid overs theory thats worked for them pretty well in recent times, forcing players to take risks to score.
Hes not been dreadful but I dont see him as a genuine front 5 bowler for ODIs or a player who would get picked on merit for his batting alone.
England have always had at least one player like this, and to be fair most teams do. Hes not really good enough at anything to warrant automatic selection, but the side looks unbalanced without him in.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Mad4 ...England always look to get a left arm slow ( its a big much to call him a spinner) in their side somehow, thats why I call Patel a role filler..as Yardy was before him. Slow options are a huge part of limited overs cricket now, and England have this left arm slow mid overs theory thats worked for them pretty well in recent times, forcing players to take risks to score.
Hes not been dreadful but I dont see him as a genuine front 5 bowler for ODIs or a player who would get picked on merit for his batting alone.
England have always had at least one player like this, and to be fair most teams do. Hes not really good enough at anything to warrant automatic selection, but the side looks unbalanced without him in.

Does it though? Does the following side look unbalanced to you really?
Cook
KP
Trott
Bopara
Morgan
Kieswetter
Bresnan
Broad
Swann
Anderson
Finn
In the subcontinent you need two spinners, granted, but in Aus and NZ? Not that sure. If you're unconvinced about Bresnan at 7, how about Woakes (assuming he gains a few extra yards of pace as he should do)?

Having said that, I personally feel Patel is a much better option than Mike Yardy ever was. Yardy never looked good enough to score runs at international level, though he was a very good T20 bowler. Patel at least looks like he can score runs.

Well in theory Yardy was a decent number 7 bat, and had a better record than say Jos Buttler whilst clealry never really cutting it. What we have now is a slightly less effective ( even if technically better) bowler and slightly better bat ( although his T20 international record is pants)

didn't Yardy end up batting below Bresnan anyway?

Not sure...just had a look at his cricinfo profile, certainly his last game he batted 7 ahead of Brenan ( 3 of 17 balls)
His overall T20 record was actually good with both bat and ball, better than Id remebered. ODIs...pretty mediocre.

Yardy IMO was no number seven on the international stage. He had great difficulty in clearing the ropes in T20 from what I remember.
Decent bowler though.

I personally think Sa has a good stock of pace/seam bowlers.

Our main bowlers.

Dale Steyn
Morne Morkel
Vernon Philander

Our back up bowlers.

Tsotsobe: Perhaps more an ODI bowler, but solid back up for tests
Parnell: He has struggled since his injury comeback, but only 22 yrs old.
Rusty Theron: Very good limited overs bowler, especially at the death.

So our bowling stocks look decent, perhaps not the best in the world, but rather promising.

I think Tsotsobe and Theron in paricular should get the opportunity to play tests as we should get confirmation of who is the best option as a back up. currently Tsotsobe is the man in poll position.

Probelm for these two are the fact that Morkel, Philander and Steyn are very good as a combination and Gary Kirsten as much as he likes to experiment whilst sorting out his potential squads for the three formats, doesn't want to risk in the test matches.

biltongbek wrote:I personally think Sa has a good stock of pace/seam bowlers.

Our main bowlers.

Dale Steyn
Morne Morkel
Vernon Philander

Our back up bowlers.

Tsotsobe: Perhaps more an ODI bowler, but solid back up for tests
Parnell: He has struggled since his injury comeback, but only 22 yrs old.
Rusty Theron: Very good limited overs bowler, especially at the death.

So our bowling stocks look decent, perhaps not the best in the world, but rather promising.

I think Tsotsobe and Theron in paricular should get the opportunity to play tests as we should get confirmation of who is the best option as a back up. currently Tsotsobe is the man in poll position.

Probelm for these two are the fact that Morkel, Philander and Steyn are very good as a combination and Gary Kirsten as much as he likes to experiment whilst sorting out his potential squads for the three formats, doesn't want to risk in the test matches.

Not as good as Australia's though, as a player of the calibre of Mitchell Johnson cannot even get a game now for their starting test XI.

you forgot deLange biltong.

I see Theron as more of a limited overs bowler myself, it's his variations that make him hard to get away, but I'm not sure his stock delivery is going to get many good batsmen out. A bit like Dernbach probably.

Yeah, you are correct, I knew I missed someone but the mind went as blank as a fired catridge.

He is also most definitely a test bowler that can develop into a star.

biltongbek wrote:I personally think Sa has a good stock of pace/seam bowlers.

Our main bowlers.

Dale Steyn
Morne Morkel
Vernon Philander

Our back up bowlers.

Tsotsobe: Perhaps more an ODI bowler, but solid back up for tests
Parnell: He has struggled since his injury comeback, but only 22 yrs old.
Rusty Theron: Very good limited overs bowler, especially at the death.

So our bowling stocks look decent, perhaps not the best in the world, but rather promising.

I think Tsotsobe and Theron in paricular should get the opportunity to play tests as we should get confirmation of who is the best option as a back up. currently Tsotsobe is the man in poll position.

Probelm for these two are the fact that Morkel, Philander and Steyn are very good as a combination and Gary Kirsten as much as he likes to experiment whilst sorting out his potential squads for the three formats, doesn't want to risk in the test matches.

I personally feel Tsotsobe is getting better all time.His pace has increased by nearly 10kph. He's also learning to swing the ball into the right handers. He would do a solid job in Test cricket, as he's a workhorse.

Parnell needs to get his bowling sorted out. At his best he's 140-145kph and get late swing, also like a left handed Steyn. Throw in he's a good fielder and his batting is getting better all the time. He could become a new Pollock type player.

Theron has an excellent F/C record there's no reason to think he won't be successful in the Test arena.

I'd be pretty keen on playing Steyn, Morne, The Pro and Marchant in the NZ Tests!

Stella wrote:Yardy IMO was no number seven on the international stage. He had great difficulty in clearing the ropes in T20 from what I remember.
Decent bowler though.

What ever happened to Yardy, every time i saw him i was impressed by him. Not the best hitter as you say but a very decent bowler in the limited overs.

eirebilly wrote:

Stella wrote:Yardy IMO was no number seven on the international stage. He had great difficulty in clearing the ropes in T20 from what I remember.
Decent bowler though.

What ever happened to Yardy, every time i saw him i was impressed by him. Not the best hitter as you say but a very decent bowler in the limited overs.

Didn't he get stress?

Cant remember Stella, have heard next to nothing of him for some time.

He did Eirebilly.

Like you said, decent one day bowler, especially 20/20 but could only really nudge it around with the bat.

Sussex fans may have a different view of course.

Fair enough, stress is a killer to some people. I have seen many a top engineer crumble because of it and i would not wish that on anyone, horrible thing.

He was also fairly old wasnt he, 30+?

I'm no expert on stress but I would imagine we have all suffered it at some point and not even known it.

He's 31, btw.

Only 31. I thought that he was much older to be honest. Anyway, i wish him the best with his stress and hope that he gets back to playing top level cricket again.

Hes unlikely to get back with England now, certainly not if Fatel stays fit enough to avoid embaressment.

A pity for him because he was starting to win over the doubters beofre his issued developed. Perhaps a bit unkind but he was a guy that prvoed bad bowling works in T20 when done well.

I thought that he was very potent to be honest.

On a side note Peter, i see the owners of this site have not created a script to correct your typing errors

I put the typos in to help cover up for my woefull spelling