Mallett & Lancaster are NOT good enough - HAS TO BE AN ENGLISHMAN

Time is short.....No one is taking this seriously....rfu about to ruin the latest last chance to revive the English rugby team....CAN EVERYONE PLEASE JUST STOP AND RECONSIDER THIS PLEASE !!!!!

Nelson says every man must do his duty so come on all you English coaches, for the love of your god man up and sort this out!

Jim Malinder you are top of the list.....

Dean Richards? Isn't Mallett pretty English anyway, from what Bilton said?

born 30 October 1956, Haileybury, England

So yes he is

Brought up in Rhodesia by English parents, born in England, educated in SA, Uni in England (he has Blues...), so he's hardly the antithesis of everything English

Mallett is considered to be English, however in my estimation he is not the person to take England forward.

He has never managed in the jeff, therefore will have limited knowledge of the players and less actual appreciation of the unique cultural experience of English club rugby which is absolutely and COMPLETELY DIFFERERENT to managing a southern hemisphere province or tier2 national team.

(Edit, obviously Mallett also coached South Africa to 17 wins etc.....that to my mind is however ancient history and not relevant experience. It is infact reason not to hire him - otherwise we might as well hire Jack Rowell)

Mallett is the wrong man - is the message being received? I think not because sadly the rfu are probably hiring him.

Lancaster may understand the coaching methodology required and is undoubtly resetting the culture and structures, but the fact is that he is inexperienced at this level and may not actually be head coach material, but most of all England cannot waste time waiting to see if another coach can pass their elementary international coaching badge.

The England coaching job is the pinnicle of coaching so why have so many english coaches either turned the job down or are not being consdered?

If the panel set up to appoint the coach don't get this right then heads really must roll.........

Mallet is English. So was Martin Johnson. So was Brian Ashton. So was Andy Robinson. That brings us back to Clive Woodward nearly ten years ago - the last Englishman coach to put a real smile on English faces.

So the question: Just why does it have to be an Englishman?

SecretFly - why do we need to go abraod there is plenty of the necessary coaching ability plying their trade in the jeff.

Just becuase their from abroad does not make them in anyway better coaches.

ChequeredJersey

I'd happily take Dean Richards, my preferred is however Malinder.

kingelderfield wrote:SecretFly - why do we need to go abraod there is plenty of the necessary coaching ability plying their trade in the jeff.

Just because they're from abroad does not make them in anyway better coaches.

I'm simply saying that someone might suggest English nationality coaches are a better choice because they've proven themselves. That's cause and effect. That's a reason why someone might say 'the English coach needs to be an Englishman'. I'd have no problem with that reasoning.

But I pointed out that it has been quite a few English coaches and some years since the last English coach proved effective. England have been trying to get back to 2003 standards for most of a decade. Instead of saying let's try doing it again with yet another English coach, why not risk it and say 'we'll go foreign this time, for a pair of outside eyes that will look dispassionately on English players and perhaps choose the better for it.'

Is that not also a reasonable argument? 'One way isn't working - let's try a different way'?

SecretFly,
I believe all major Rugby nations should have native coaches. Not exclusive to England. The reason is simple. The coaches are part of the team, same as the players. Therefore, they should all be from the same country.

doctor_grey wrote:SecretFly,
I believe all major Rugby nations should have native coaches. Not exclusive to England. The reason is simple. The coaches are part of the team, same as the players. Therefore, they should all be from the same country.

Well, I understand your attitude...but that's a philosophy (not saying it's wrong)...not a reason. Maybe kingelderfield just needs to articulate that as his belief too.... that regardless of performance, the English National coach should always be a national. As a philosophy and principle I can hardly argue with it.... although I can't share it. I'd much prefer less tolerance to non-native players than non-native coaches.

Lancaster will be officially appointed England Head Coach on the morning of March 17th 2012.

I think.

Fair enough, mate. I think you are right, more of a philosophy.

I think coaching is one place where the national Unions (most of them at least) appear to get it wrong. There seems to be very little training or grooming of coaches to get to the top level. Although, there is plenty of support at the lower levels. If there was a similar effort to that of developing players, there might be better choices of coaches for each of the national unions. I would still pefer to see an Englishman leading England, a Welshman leading Wales and so on. Its not about better or worse.

PJHolybloke wrote:Lancaster will be officially appointed England Head Coach on the morning of March 17th 2012.

I think.

And be sacked at 8pm after Ireland crunch England to win the 6n on points?


Seriously though, SL has done an excellent job so far and i feel he is the right choice to take England forward.

eirebilly wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:Lancaster will be officially appointed England Head Coach on the morning of March 17th 2012.

I think.

And be sacked at 8pm after Ireland crunch England to win the 6n on points?


Seriously though, SL has done an excellent job so far and i feel he is the right choice to take England forward.

Don't ask me why Billy, but I have a feeling England will lose the shackles Ireland have had them in for what seems like ages, I think England will win their last two games and finish a respectable second.

PJ,
Can't say why, but I really have that exact same strange feeling about the Ireland match as you do. For me, not based on anything logical, just that weird feeling. Can't say about the France match, however, just the Ireland match. Hoping for the best.

You'll be glad to know that as an Irishman...I have no feeling whatsoever about how Ireland might do against any of their following opponents.

Not a bloody clue. Which is either a great place to be or a nightmare. Right now it's a nightmare...tomorrow night I might think differently

Imagine EOS and SL working together PJ...

Mark my words here. Ireland will win the 6N after Wales lose to France on March 17

O'Sullivan is a great backs coach Billy, he had Ireland purring back in the day, but I'm not sure. I get the impression SL will have his own say in who his coaches are, he may well like the idea of EOS, he would be daft not to consider the option to be fair, but I'm getting a chemistry vibe off the current setup and if EOS has chucked his cap in for the head coaches role do you think he would take a job as attack coach?



I don't know - but me an the Doc. are saying Ireland are going down on Paddy's Day, it could be payback time.

I just think that he would slot in there beautifully PJ. He is one of the best backs coaches i have seen. He is not head coach material, never has been.


Your going down on Paddy's day PJ, accept that

ChequeredJersey wrote:Brought up in Rhodesia by English parents, born in England, educated in SA, Uni in England (he has Blues...), so he's hardly the antithesis of everything English

He may be too English judging from recent player selections!

I'd be quite happy with EOS in there Billy, he may well be the missing link as England haven't exactly impressed so far with their backs, the talent is there but the spark is absent, it will ultimately come down to the head coach (whoever that is ).

As for the 17th? Pinch yourself - you're dreaming.

eirebilly wrote:I just think that he would slot in there beautifully PJ. He is one of the best backs coaches i have seen. He is not head coach material, never has been.


Your going down on Paddy's day PJ, accept that

He was so good as backs coach that a head coach felt him breathe down his neck and so tried to sully his reputation by taking the backs out of the overall plans.................... ! Now who was that head coach?.............. Hmmmmm.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Brought up in Rhodesia by English parents, born in England, educated in SA, Uni in England (he has Blues...), so he's hardly the antithesis of everything English

He may be too English judging from recent player selections!

Recent player selections are no different to previously "ancient" player selections, they're all EQ and always have been, unlike some of Wales' previous player selections where they've been proven to be inelligible to play for Wales - after playing for Wales. I don't think any of the current England team were at any stage qualified for Wales, unlike nearly half of Wales' backs who could of course have chosen to play for England, were they that way inclined.

Drop the stones bud, think of your windows.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I just think that he would slot in there beautifully PJ. He is one of the best backs coaches i have seen. He is not head coach material, never has been.


Your going down on Paddy's day PJ, accept that

He was so good as backs coach that a head coach felt him breathe down his neck and so tried to sully his reputation by taking the backs out of the overall plans.................... ! Now who was that head coach?.............. Hmmmmm.

Ooooh I know this one!

Declan Kidney - da Munster Monster!

How'd I do, huh?

Very good answer, PJ..and very wrong. As a quizmaster in these parts says: "The questions didn't suit you"...meaning of course "Your brain doesn't like being asked questions - period" - Not you! - the generalised guy.

Isn't that head coach the very same lad that now commands the Globetrotting All-Backs of Wales no less. He must get on with his backs coach this time. He's learning.

Sheesh, I thought it was an Ireland question.

What a bollix!

PJHolybloke wrote:I have a feeling England will lose the shackles Ireland have had them in for what seems like ages, I think England will win their last two games and finish a respectable second.

England did beat Ireland away during the world cup warm-ups. Everyone did, mind.

I'm really unsure of how Ireland are going to progress now. On the one hand, it wont be long before they lose legends like BOD and POC, on the other they have a few outstanding young players (the back row, Sexton, Healey etc).

On the coach situation - I don't mind the coach being from another country as I don't see them as part of the team. Also, when another country (or Hemisphere) is consistently outperforming you at a sport it makes sense to hire top coaches from there to tap into their skill set and knowledge. That's how you catch up.

As I said brfore, I want the coach of a major Rugby nation to be from that nation. And I whould expand that to all management levels.....

OK, I just heard from a mate in the FCO there is a chance that Rob Andrew is actually North Korean, and was planted in England years ago as a sleeper agent.
Kim Il Sung was called "The Great Leader"
Kim Jong Il was called "The Dear Leader"
Rob Andrew was called "The Great Despoiler"

Happy Sunday

Rob Andrew is The Great Penfold. The All Seeing Pair of Specs.

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PJHolybloke wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Brought up in Rhodesia by English parents, born in England, educated in SA, Uni in England (he has Blues...), so he's hardly the antithesis of everything English

He may be too English judging from recent player selections!

Recent player selections are no different to previously "ancient" player selections, they're all EQ and always have been, unlike some of Wales' previous player selections where they've been proven to be inelligible to play for Wales - after playing for Wales. I don't think any of the current England team were at any stage qualified for Wales, unlike nearly half of Wales' backs who could of course have chosen to play for England, were they that way inclined.

Drop the stones bud, think of your windows.

Wales pulled a stunt when half our side went oop North.We were pillaged of our best talent.Why cant England find 15 English blokes?Alien abduction?

Whereas Stuart Lancaster is so English he played for Scotland?

Havent we tried the "true blood English hero" already?

Didnt we try the deeply respected club coach before that?

Isnt it about time to get someone who has been a part of a long established winning rugby culture?

Dean Richards is an utterly ludicrous suggestion and like Mallinder hasnt even applied has he?

As I understand it, the applicants are Lancaster, Mallet, O' Sullivan and Kirwan.

Three possibles and a no-hoper.

Just noticed that Mallett started his career as an English teacher, whereas Lancaster was a schools Games Master.

Pretty clear which of them has the stronger CV

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Just noticed that Mallett started his career as an English teacher, whereas Lancaster was a schools Games Master.

Pretty clear which of them has the stronger CV

I thought you were going to write that Lancaster started his career as a teacher of Afrikaans. That would be pretty funny.

PJHolybloke wrote:As I understand it, the applicants are Lancaster, Mallet, O' Sullivan and Kirwan.

Three possibles and a no-hoper.

Considering it's one of the biggest posts in World rugby that's not a great applicant list really. Are people put off by working for the RFU I wonder?

Cardiff Taffy wrote:Considering it's one of the biggest posts in World rugby that's not a great applicant list really. Are people put off by working for the RFU I wonder?

I would absolutely have to agree. The ultimate poisined chalice: The good news is you have been appointed to one of the most prestigious posts in world Rugby. The bad news is, your boss...............

Well which applicants would you have expected to come forward are there who dont already have a job and wouldve thought they had the vaguest chance of getting it?
Gatland?

Id like to know who the third no hoper is in there, they already rejected Kriwan...surely not EOS???

Mallet has the job, allegedly.

kingelderfield wrote:

He has never managed in the jeff, therefore will have limited knowledge of the players and less actual appreciation of the unique cultural experience of English club rugby

The only English coaches with premiership or top class rugby experience appointed in recent times were dick best brian ashton and jack Rowell.

Is the poster saying that Mallet and Lancaster are not good enough to coach England, simply because he (the poster) that Mallet and Lacaster are not good enough?

Or is he (THE POSTER) saying the Mallet and Lancaster are not good enough because they are not "ENGLISH"?

Please say which one.

Is the poster saying that Mallet and Lancaster are not good enough to coach England, simply because he (the poster) that Mallet and Lacaster are not good enough?

Or is he (THE POSTER) saying the Mallet and Lancaster are not good enough because they are not "ENGLISH"?

Please say which one.

Or both?

The idea that a national team needs a coach of the same nationality is a throw back to some past ideal. I would have thought that what England needs is a coach with proven success, true international credentials and an understanding of how the game is developing on the international stage.

Surely its the best man available now for the job - regardless of nationality?

offload wrote:The idea that a national team needs a coach of the same nationality is a throw back to some past ideal. I would have thought that what England needs is a coach with proven success, true international credentials and an understanding of how the game is developing on the international stage.

Surely its the best man available now for the job - regardless of nationality?

I agree. It would be preferable to have an English coach but the most important thing for me is one who actually does a good job and takes the team forward. If you look at the English contenders

Stuart Lancaster - Done a decent enough job in the short term considering but is he really the man to takes us forward? Seems to favour a conservative game plan and selections (based on the games so far and the release of Flood this weekend). May win us the odd 6N championship but can't see the SH teams shaking in their boots come the AI's and the World Cup. How is that different from MJ?

Jim Mallinder - Didn't apply, not the correct time for him. Feels he has unfinished business at Northampton and if he feels he is not ready then what are the chances of him being a success even if the job was thrown at him? You don't usually get a second chance at the top level of coaching.

Dean Richards - What kind of message does it send out to ban someone for cheating for 3 years and then immediately hire him for the very top job possible? I'm not saying never but for me he has to pay his dues in the club game for a few years first and regain some trust and respect.

Who does that leave? Looking at the Jeff the next Englishmen are then Richard Cockerill and Rob Baxter after Saracens (Irish) and Quins (Irish). Although Baxter has done great in Devon I'm not sure he ready for the top job and even Tigers fan's are not shouting for their man so where does that leave us - Steve Diamond, Toby Booth or Richard Hill?

Look at South Africa. Decided they had to hire a non-white South African for the top job just after they had won the WC in 2007 and they had arguably the best playing squad available along with NZ and what happened?

For me we need to hire the best man available, and at the moment that comes down to Lancaster or Mallet. I feel Lancaster's style of game will only take us so far and so I would choose Mallet, who is a proven top level international coach. I don't care if he classes himself as English, South African or Outer Mongolian as long as his communication is A1 and he does his best for England. I did read (on 606v2) that he was supposed to be a bit off hand with his players but biltonbek assured me that was rubbish.

Mallett will be another disaster for England. If anyone is remotely convinced by Italy's displays, limited player base or not, then they must be in the pay of the richest union in world rugby.

Lancaster is just not experienced enough, simple to the point, FACT.

It has to be an Englishman because this is the ENGLAND rugby team. And even though the rfu have proved themselves incompetent and not fit to run the game I am determined that there is the neccessary talent, both players and coaches, to realise the potential we undoubtly possess.

The rfu, r andrew et al just don't get it.

The message is this. No decision should be made until and a genuine candidate can be persuaded to realise the magitude of coaching the England rugby team.

What about SA under Mallett kingelderfield?

Any good?

kingelderfield wrote:Mallett will be another disaster for England. If anyone is remotely convinced by Italy's displays, limited player base or not, then they must be in the pay of the richest union in world rugby.

Lancaster is just not experienced enough, simple to the point, FACT.

It has to be an Englishman because this is the ENGLAND rugby team. And even though the rfu have proved themselves incompetent and not fit to run the game I am determined that there is the neccessary talent, both players and coaches, to realise the potential we undoubtly possess.

The rfu, r andrew et al just don't get it.

The message is this. No decision should be made until and a genuine candidate can be persuaded to realise the magitude of coaching the England rugby team.

OK so I made a mistake in offering an earlier response in this thread. Now I realise that you are a WUM or none too smart, or both.

offload wrote:The idea that a national team needs a coach of the same nationality is a throw back to some past ideal. I would have thought that what England needs is a coach with proven success, true international credentials and an understanding of how the game is developing on the international stage.

Surely its the best man available now for the job - regardless of nationality?

true however very subjective thing to say "best man for the job".

because no two coaches can coach the same team at the same time to quantify if we picked the right coach!


The point is- having an english coach for england may be better than having a better 'foreign' coach, the former may relate to the team better, he may care about his job more, he may motivate the team better even if he cant set quite as good tactics as the supposed 'better man for the job'


I make this point more for the vacant england football position at present, however same could be applied to the england rugby team.!

however the england football team is very much made up from english working class backgrounds, our rugby players are different to that and are very much more diverse in how they grew up and who they are therefore it may not be such an issue to have a 'foreign' coach!

PJHolybloke wrote:What about SA under Mallett kingelderfield?

Any good?

No as I mentioned earlier NM's experience with RSA is ancient history, nearly 15 years ago, therefore not relevent.

NM is yesterday's man, he will not bring success to England - nad that means a team that wins the 2015 world cup.