Pro 12 yardstick: How do you measure your team?

Hey all,

Ok had a wee idea about the pro12 league and about how we think our teams measure up to the others in the league. Now this could get a little heated as we are not always going to agree on how well you think your/someone elses team are doing so show some respect for others and keep the debates clean, rational and friendly.

If when doing this you could copy the table below, fill in the blanks about your team and then write a bit at the end supporting what you have put down.

All ratings should be based on this season.

Team:
Best Player:
Most Improved Player:
Unsung Hero:
Problem Position:
List of Strengths: (short list, be rational)
List of Weakness's: (short list, be rational)
Attack out of 10:
Defence out of 10:
Scrum out of 10:
Lineout out of 10:
Breakdown out of 10:
Kicking game out of 10:
Coaching out of 10:
Improvements you'd like to see: (keep short, realistic)

Then scribble a bit about why you think you deserve certain marks and what could be done to make it better. Have a look at the marks other people give their teams and debate away but keep it clean.

Team: Ulster
Best Player: Ruan Pienaar / Stephen Ferris
Most Improved Player: Paul Marshall
Unsung Hero: Chris Henry / Ian Whitten
Problem Position: Fly Half
List of Strengths: Scrum, Backrow, physicality, depth in 3/4's
List of Weakness's: Game management, fly half, composure in big games
Attack out of 10: 6
Defence out of 10: 6
Scrum out of 10: 8
Lineout out of 10: 7
Breakdown out of 10: 7
Kicking game out of 10: 7
Coaching out of 10: 7
Improvements you'd like to see: (keep short, realistic) Better squad rotation, more composure in big games, consistancy.

Team: Leinster
Best Player: Isa Nacewa
Most Improved Player: Ian Madigan
Unsung Hero: Devin Toner
Problem Position: Lock
List of Strengths: (short list, be rational) Attack, Breakdown, Game Management, Depth
List of Weakness's: (short list, be rational) Scrum against certain teams.
Attack out of 10: 9
Defence out of 10: 8.5
Scrum out of 10: 7.5
Lineout out of 10: 8
Breakdown out of 10: 9
Kicking game out of 10: 8
Coaching out of 10: 9.5
Improvements you'd like to see: (keep short, realistic) Further improvement in scrum and possibly higher level of fitness from front 5

Leinster are one of the best teams in Europe, I think that is a fair statement. We have a very proud team and loyal supporters and the club is very strong. Our depth is probably our greatest assest in that we are able to challenge strongly on two fronts. Our goal is to win the double this year and we have the squad that can attempt that.

Our coaching staff are fantastic some of the best in the NH I'd reckon and they need to continue working with our players developing them, one can see the influence Schmidt has made with Kearney and Fitzgerald and Feek has had on Healy.

I feel bits still need to be improved. Cullen and Ross still look awful, clueless and lost with ball in hand in open field, their minds aren't working as quickly as everone elses. I think Ross in particular could do with getting fitter.

Team: Scarlets
Best Player: Liam Williams
Most Improved Player: Aaron Shingler
Unsung Hero: Emyr Phillips
Problem Position: 2nd Row
List of Strengths: Back row, wing, hooker, commitment
List of Weakness's: 2nd row, SH, composure/suseptable to brain farts
Attack out of 10: 7
Defence out of 10: 8
Scrum out of 10: 7
Lineout out of 10: 7
Breakdown out of 10: 7
Kicking game out of 10: 7
Coaching out of 10: 8
Improvements you'd like to see: consistency in back line, improved attack, more grunt in the forwards, composure in key games.

Rodders-

Good stuff buddy, think you sold your attack a little short tbh! Considering you think Marshall is most improved, Pieenar is one of your best and fly half is a problem position would you bench IHumph and play Marshall and Pieenar.

What would be your ambitions for the rest of the season realistically?

Team: Leinster
Best Player: Nacewa
Most Improved Player: Toner / Madigan
Unsung Hero: Toner
Problem Position: LOCK!!!
List of Strengths: large squad, lethal at the breakdown, attack, controlling the game (kicking and tempo)
List of Weakness's: This season? Complacency maybe, set piece could be stronger
Attack out of 10: 9 at times, 7.5 on average
Defence out of 10: 8
Scrum out of 10: 6
Lineout out of 10: 7
Breakdown out of 10: 9
Kicking game out of 10: 8
Coaching out of 10: 9.5
Improvements you'd like to see: We need to sign cover in the second row, we need to phase out our non-marquee foreign players and replace with Irish players of a similar quality.

Dreamer-
Do you think someone like S.Jones could be the guy to give you that composure with all his experience? He isn't a leader but he has a lot of test time.

He probably wouldn't help your attack improve though.

What are your lock options like?

Team: ulster
Best Player: ferris
Most Improved Player:chris Henry
Unsung Hero: Pedrie Wannenburg
Problem Position: 10
List of Strengths: first class pack when fit. Some great backs. Some good youngsters
List of Weakness's: backrow depth. Coaching to a certain extent. Fly half
Attack out of 10: 6/10 rising to 9/10 when they get their act together
Defence out of 10: 7/10
Scrum out of 10: 9/10 unless your name is George Clancy
Lineout out of 10: 9/10
Breakdown out of 10: 7/10
Kicking game out of 10: 6/10
Coaching out of 10: 6/10
Improvements you'd like to see: new dynamic coaching team bringing in fresh ideas in attack. Development of youngsters continuing apace next year with Jackson and Marshall specifically. We need to improve our consistency without the key players. Empower the you guys to try things and not be scared of mistakes.

Pete - sure Stevo could be the guy (if we re-sign him for next season!), but he hasn't been available to us for large chunks of the season due to the rwc and his late call up to the 6N's squad. If he's still with us next season, he could be a big help.

And our attack this season has been poor largely been down to the lads having a lack of game time. So many call ups to Wales and we've had no consistency there, (it took us until mid january for our whole squad to have a full month training together!) I fully expect it to improve a lot for next season.

And Lock?? well we've got Damien Welch and Sioni Timani. Day has just signed for Bath and Reed might be going to the Blues. We can and have played Shingler, McCusker and Turnbull there but they aren't out and out locks. We need to recruit there massively. Also TH might become a problem. With the loss of Rhys Thomas, and Manu possibly leaving, we're going to be very light in taht position.

We aren't far off being a very good side, just need to recruit well in a couple of positions and do a bit of tinkering, and we should come good I reckon.

Pete its hard to judge our attack and defence mate because we still lack consistancy week in week out.

Our back play was pretty poor and predictable pre xmas but has improved out of sight since then as has our all-round play in general.

Defensively we are strong and committed but still leak soft points now and again.

For me we have possibly exceded expectations this season but given our form I would be quietly (but not overly) confident of beating Munster. We are big underdogs but if we play as we did against Clermont then we have a real chance.

Then we have a home SF so who knows?

In the rabo I'd be very happy to squeeze into the top 4 again and given our awful start to the season that would be a brilliant achievement.

If we can just keep performing to the end of the season I'll be happy but its all to play for.

Mick would you also include the need to phase out guys like Darcy and Cullen in the next year or so?

Dreamer-
Any guys that you'd want to sign from oversea's???
Yeah of course you guys had to deal with that odd Aussie Wales game too! Pain in the a$$.
I'd have thought with some of your guys out wide you should have a strong attack and you had a great offense last season.

Stand-
You aren't wild on your coaching? I would have thought it has been good so far over the last 2 years.

Rodders-
I think that is a big ask for you guys. I think you guys will get in to the top 4 of one or other competition but I don't think your squad is anywhere near big enough (pack mainly) to manage 2 competitions that would be a very high standard. Leinster can rest guys because we have a lead and because our 2nd string are very, very good, can Ulster do that?

Team: Scarlets
Best Player: Jon Davies / George North (between the two, depends on the day)
Most Improved Player: Dom Day, has shown promise before but played his best rugby to date this season (and now id off to pastures now dammit)
Unsung Hero: Jon Edwards (always gives 100%, but not praised as a star of the back row compared to Turnbull, McCusker and Morgan)
Problem Position: Lock
List of Strengths: Generally our backs and loose forwards, our counter attacking.
List of Weakness's: Lack of recognised grunt, a few yellow card machines (Rhys Thomas, Jon Edwards)
Attack out of 10: 7, when we are on form we would probably be a 9.5, but we haven't really fired to well this season
Defence out of 10: 7, vastly improved but disipline (as mentioned earlier) can let us down.
Scrum out of 10: 6.5, IMO we have a good scrum, however it is our weakest area, and sometimes I think we are pinged in the scrum on reputation rather than what occured.
Lineout out of 10: 6.5, a bit hit and miss. When our line is functioning it is good, but when it goes wonky it is worse than dire.
Breakdown out of 10: 7.5, we seem to be getting a few more turnovers recently, and we seem to be better at slowing folk down when they are camped on our line than before
Kicking game out of 10: 1 or 8, depends on who is playing fly half (1 for Aled Thomas and poor Priestland, 8 for good Priestland and Jones)
Coaching out of 10: 8, Nigel Davies seems to have put together a decent team, and Garin Jenkins has done some impressive work with our forwards (like McBryde before him)
Improvements you'd like to see: We need to ensure we have some second rows for next season, and hopefully we can start to get our scrum a better reputation so we are more likely to win the 50-50 calls.

Good on Darcy and Cullen Pete. Our hand is being forced right now with Cullen but we’re holding onto Darcy for dear life.

Darcy has a readymade replacement in McFadden and the sooner he gets an extended run at 12 the better. We will have to sign someone to fill Cullens boots though, Thorn in the short term (where the bloody hell is he!?!) and AN Other next season. To be fair to Joe, I think the only reason Darcy is playing so much this year is because GOD is out injured.

Pete - aye we did last season, but injuries and call ups, we've very rarely, if at all, played our first choice team this season, but them's the breaks I guess. We've still been in a position to win key games but haven't, so game management actually might be even more important for us to improve on.

And signings? hmmm, rumour mill is that we're after Jason Eaton (i think that's the one) but really can't see that being true or us signing anyone big, we don't have the funds for it. We've recruited a really young lock from cross keys but I'd expect him to feature more for Llanelli RFC next season. Reckon next season it will be us playing back row players in the 2nd row and just making do. I'd rather we do that, then put ourselves in more financial worries over signing a player we can't afford!

SS - that's a bit harsh on Aled Thomas, no?? I know his kicking at the posts can get a bit wobbly, but his tactical kicking has been spot on for a lot of this season (away against Dragons especially).

I agree with you there Mick, Darcy wouldn't have surivived this season if BOD were here. Yeah Thorn should have arrived by now no?

Scarlets guys-
Was there no way you have held on to Day? I think Priestland isn't given enough stick tbh he is seriously hot and cold at times when he doesn't have an army of monsters to hand the ball off to. I think the problem does root in your pack though. You guys that bad financially that you can't sign anyone? How are the academy prospects looking?

It would be better if a card-carrying season ticket holder completed this, but I'll take a stab for now!

Team: Glasgow Warriors
Best Player: Richie Gray
Most Improved Player: Rob Harley
Unsung Hero: John Welsh
Problem Position: Inside centre
List of Strengths: Relatively strong pack, backline there or thereabouts, always hit hard in international windows
List of Weakness's: Lack of squad depth in key positions, distribution
Attack out of 10:6.5
Defence out of 10: 7
Scrum out of 10: 7.5
Lineout out of 10: 8.5
Breakdown out of 10: 7.5
Kicking game out of 10: 7 (looking at box-kicking of Cuister and Pyrgos, generally weak, plus kicking out of hand from wee Duncy and Rhubarb, the latter's can be mixed)
Coaching out of 10: 7.5 (Lineen does seem to get some decent performances out of a fairly unsung bunch)
Improvements you'd like to see: I'd like to see the Warriors vary their game - their forward oriented style is all well and good, but getting a backline scoring tries is essential if the elusive Heino qfs are to be achieved

All improving comments welcome

rugbydreamer wrote:SS - that's a bit harsh on Aled Thomas, no?? I know his kicking at the posts can get a bit wobbly, but his tactical kicking has been spot on for a lot of this season (away against Dragons especially).

It may be a bit harsh, but to be honest his displays at the start of the season, when he as fly half/centre, were not up to club level, and he was again off form against Treviso the other weekend. Maybe I am judging him on what the other options are.

I don't think we could offer Day as much as Bath could (in fact I think we could only offer him less money), Pete, which is a shame as apparently he really wanted to stay with us. And yes we are bad off financially, have been for years. We're in the process of clearing off about £5million in debt (due to break even next year apparently) so I doubt we'll be pushing the boundaries for a big money signing and putting that at risk.

And our academy? Our academy is brilliant at producing players in every single positiong.....other than lock!!! It's been the same way for about 4 seasons now, hugely frustrating. We just can't seem to find any. Rumours are of some twins coming up through the age grades, but they're still just 18 so not ready to make the step up yet.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rodders-
I think that is a big ask for you guys. I think you guys will get in to the top 4 of one or other competition but I don't think your squad is anywhere near big enough (pack mainly) to manage 2 competitions that would be a very high standard. Leinster can rest guys because we have a lead and because our 2nd string are very, very good, can Ulster do that?

Pete I am talking about this season only. The fact is we are in contention in both competitions.

I am not looking beyond the next game, everyone is a cup final now. However we are playing extremely well, maybe the best I've ever seen us play.

If we lose next week our Rabo season is likely over and Munster being Munster could put 40 points on us in the QF.

The pressure is on them though and I believe we have a great chance of winning. If so then I would fancy us in a SF at the aviva. Then you are in a HEC final ! A big ask but not impossible at all.

One game at a time though, every win is a bonus from here in.

Pete - it depends on who you are talking to, but the local rumour mill was Dom wanted a three year deal, but was offered a one year deal (and I believe on reduced terms). But apparently at a resent supporters meeting Nige said he wasn't offered a contract.

Asbo - surely fly half is a strong point for you boys, your turning them out at the moment pretty well (Parks then Jackson now Weir). Also do you think Lamont will possibly help strengthen up your centre options? I know he is not a brilliant distributer, but he may help the others as they can just off load it to him if they are unsure.

I agree I think you could go very far in one or other competition rodders.

Aslongas-
I agree with you there on the attack think. When you have Morrison at 12 you always have a crash ball option although not an outstanding one. It's what happens behind him though if he is holding defenders with his run there needs to be stuff going on behind him being done at pace and with cretativity to exploit space.

Max Evans is a good shout here but has been poor for a while.
Love the look of Welsh and Gray is a great player.
What do you think your chances of a pro12 semi are?

Dreamer-
Yeah our academy is the same re: lock, it's as if they develop later than other positions or something. you may need to dip into the piggy bank just to stay competitive for next year if you are losing lads here and there and need some quality forwards

Someone on twitter just said “my mate is guard working at the airport and he said he just saw Brad Thorn arrive”

probably a crock. But funny none the less.

Hey if that is true it will make me mighty happy!

Mick do you know if anything came of route 66?

Mickado wrote:Someone on twitter just said “my mate is guard working at the airport and he said he just saw Brad Thorn arrive”

probably a crock. But funny none the less.

To be fair Brad Thorn's not the kind of guy you could confuse with someone else.... unless the WWE wrestlers are coming to town!

Team: Edinburgh
Best Player: Mike Blair / Tim Visser / Ross Ford
Most Improved Player: Mike Blair (almost back to his best)
Unsung Hero: Netani Talei
Problem Position: Fly half /front five (minus hooker)
List of Strengths: Finishing, fitness, entertaining game style
List of Weakness's: quality of squad when internationals are away. Wrong stadium.
Attack out of 10: 9 with internationals / 5 without
Defence out of 10: 6 with internationals / 3 without
Scrum out of 10: 6 with internationals / 4 without
Lineout out of 10: 6
Breakdown out of 10: 6
Kicking game out of 10: 6
Coaching out of 10: 8
Improvements you'd like to see: More depth brought into the front five. Better defense but still keep our attack. New stadium.

Bradley knows where the weekness is in his squad and has started to bolster with SQ and project players coming in. The SRU are starting to back the team so should mean more signings by the start of next season.

We're currently at 25k tickets for the HEC so should get a few ££ out of that.

Pete, I think it will be a few years before anything comes of that. It was for people between 17 and 23 so I’d imagine we’ll be waiting a while before it bears fruit. Good idea though.

CP,

Thanks for throwing up an Edinburgh one! got a good few teams up here now.

Agree with you about Visser, Blair, Ford who is Netani Talei though never heard of him? What's he like?

Totally agree you are in the wrong stadium said it for years but glad you guys are in a 1/4 final it may get some fire back in to scottish rugby.

Your attack is immense that 9 try training game against Metro was sick would have been better if you hadn't conceeded so many tho!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:who is Netani Talei though never heard of him? What's he like?

If you ever come up against him he'll make quite a big impression... literally. He's what you'd expect from a South Seas Island Number 8 but since being in Scotland he's learnt of our lads about work ethic.

Pete

When you look at ulster with the full team out it is a bloody impressive sight. we are the top try scorers in the pro12 so our attack can be devastating. the amount of BP's we have picked up is fantastic so far this year.

That being said our BP's when shorn of our internationals are as great. We got one against possibly the worst edinburgh side i have ever seen at ravers and the dragons. Other than that we have relied on pretty strong teams.

From a coaching perspective i think Schmidt is the benchmark. No matter who he puts in place at Leinster, the system is bought into and each player knows their role within that system.
Ulster dont have that yet and we failed to get an away win in wales this year and were comfortably beaten by glasgow away (this was at teh start of their impressive run and they werent nearly as tough a prospect then as they are now.) lets not forget the treviso debacle either.

I dont wish to undermine McLaughlin who has definitely played an important role in reviving ulsters fortunes but imo the resurgence has been built on top class signings made by Humph Snr.

cp10 wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:who is Netani Talei though never heard of him? What's he like?

If you ever come up against him he'll make quite a big impression... literally. He's what you'd expect from a South Seas Island Number 8 but since being in Scotland he's learnt of our lads about work ethic.

Netani Talei Not the biggest, but immense leg power

I agree with all that Stand. I think your depth in the backs is pretty good just not the pack.

Cp-
I'll keep an eye out for him. we still have to play you I think don't we?

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/newsroom/9604.php

Pete, yeah we play Edinburgh the week after the HC QF. At home.

Team: Munster
Best Player: Peter O'Mahony
Most Improved Player: Niall Ronan
Unsung Hero: James Coughlan
Problem Position: Tighthead after Botha
List of Strengths: (short list, be rational) Great defence, solid scrum,decent lineout,
List of Weakness's: (short list, be rational): Try-scoring, goal-kicking, penalties at breakdown
Attack out of 10: 7/10 some nice tries but butchering some opportunities
Defence out of 10:9/10- least amount of tries conceded and tied on points
Scrum out of 10: 8/10 a lot more solid now, Botha has been great
Lineout out of 10: 7/10 some wobbly throwing from Fogarty/Varley but has been pretty solid
Breakdown out of 10: 6/10 some great turnovers and steals but giving away a fair amount of penalties
Kicking game out of 10: 5/10 Keatley has been a mixed bag, sometimes great from tee and poor other times. Tactical kicking could be better
Coaching out of 10: 8/10 some promising backline play at times, coupled with some very nice forward grunt, bringing through some yonugsters too
Improvements you'd like to see: (keep short, realistic) Keatley needs to perform better, Archer needs to improve in the scrum, more discipline at the breakdown.

Thomond wrote:Team: Munster
Best Player: Peter O'Mahony
Most Improved Player: Niall Ronan
Unsung Hero: James Coughlan
Problem Position: Tighthead after Botha
List of Strengths: (short list, be rational) Great defence, solid scrum,decent lineout,
List of Weakness's: (short list, be rational): Try-scoring, goal-kicking, penalties at breakdown
Attack out of 10: 7/10 some nice tries but butchering some opportunities
Defence out of 10:9/10- least amount of tries conceded and tied on points
Scrum out of 10: 8/10 a lot more solid now, Botha has been great
Lineout out of 10: 7/10 some wobbly throwing from Fogarty/Varley but has been pretty solid
Breakdown out of 10: 6/10 some great turnovers and steals but giving away a fair amount of penalties
Kicking game out of 10: 5/10 Keatley has been a mixed bag, sometimes great from tee and poor other times. Tactical kicking could be better
Coaching out of 10: 8/10 some promising backline play at times, coupled with some very nice forward grunt, bringing through some yonugsters too
Improvements you'd like to see: (keep short, realistic) Keatley needs to perform better, Archer needs to improve in the scrum, more discipline at the breakdown.

Thomond-
I was thinking that the whole season should be judged upon and therefore it would include your HCup team.
I'd also say midfield would be a problem position for you.

It is yeah, I forgot to mention it. I only looked at the title so I thought it was on Pro 12 performance only.

Based on this year... gonna be a long one

Team: Ospreys
Best Player: Adam Jones/Alun-Wyn Jones
Most Improved Player: Ashley Beck
Unsung Hero: Ian Gough/Jonathan Thomas
Problem Position: Fullback
List of Strengths: Scrum, ability to win when playing badly, depth in the forwards
List of Weakness's: Lineout, creativity, intensity/commitment, quality in the backs
Attack out of 10: 6
Defence out of 10: 8
Scrum out of 10: 8
Lineout out of 10: 4
Breakdown out of 10: 5
Kicking game out of 10: 4
Coaching out of 10: 5
Improvements you'd like to see: Better attack, play more instinctively rather than by the playbook and players to show some passion and intensity.

I think our defence has always been a strong point. The structures that are in place seem to work well, but the commitment isn't always there unlike before.

Our scrum is also a strong point in my view. We have faired well against great scrummaging sides in the past. What worries me though is that our gameplan seems to almost revolve around it.

The attack and backline in general this year have been very ordinary the only bright sparks being Beck, Dirksen, Morgan and Webb and 2 of them don't even play regularly!

Overall it is very hard to judge this year. We have done quite well in the Rabo
especially early on, but the performances haven't been great so far. The players don't seem to be comfortable with the game plan. Anyway something doesn't feel right and i hope it changes soon.

Gowales-
I agree with everything you said but You guys are still 3rd. You have a great opportunity to get to the rabo playoffs which is an achievement.

Interesting that most Leinster fans would say the breakdown is one of their greatest strengths, when Ireland's is poor and people blame it on the likes of SOB. Is Jennings really that important to Leinster, even though SOB has been starting at 7 a lot more this season? Is it the game-plan Leinster play? I am interested to hear why Leinster are so effective at the breakdown.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Interesting that most Leinster fans would say the breakdown is one of their greatest strengths, when Ireland's is poor and people blame it on the likes of SOB. Is Jennings really that important to Leinster, even though SOB has been starting at 7 a lot more this season? Is it the game-plan Leinster play? I am interested to hear why Leinster are so effective at the breakdown.

I'm just as bemused. Apparently the breakdown is a different beast on the international stage.

Well the quality of opposition is

Mickado wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Interesting that most Leinster fans would say the breakdown is one of their greatest strengths, when Ireland's is poor and people blame it on the likes of SOB. Is Jennings really that important to Leinster, even though SOB has been starting at 7 a lot more this season? Is it the game-plan Leinster play? I am interested to hear why Leinster are so effective at the breakdown.

I'm just as bemused. Apparently the breakdown is a different beast on the international stage.

Maybe it is because Leinster want to play a fast-paced, free-flowing game, so they need the ball to be recycled quickly. Ireland play a forward-orientated game, so the urgency of quick ball isn't necessary, giving the opposition more time to compete.

Also if Leinster tried playing the same sluggish, forward-orientated game (France can be included here too, and Australia), I feel they would have the exact same problem.

Leinster ruck in droves, Ireland don't.

Why not though? Why can't Kidney, the head coach of Ireland, see these things himself, while us mere mortals on a rugby forum can?

gowales wrote:Well the quality of opposition is

In general. Yes.

But a backrow of Dusautoir, Picamoles and Nyanga are better than some international sides and Leinster can perform well against them.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Interesting that most Leinster fans would say the breakdown is one of their greatest strengths, when Ireland's is poor and people blame it on the likes of SOB. Is Jennings really that important to Leinster, even though SOB has been starting at 7 a lot more this season? Is it the game-plan Leinster play? I am interested to hear why Leinster are so effective at the breakdown.

a) Leinster are better at getting over the advantage line
b) Leinster players ruck together a lot of the time
c) Leinster players generally ruck "past the ball"
d) Gibbes is one of the best coaches in the NH
e) Leinster ball presentation is better

The standard is also lower

It isn't that much lower though. The Leinster back row is better than the irish one you would have to say, going by their record at the breakdown. Does that mean McLaughlin is a better 6 than Ferris?? Does that mean Jennings is the 7 for Ireland if it is him starting? I don't think so. I would say the Ulster back row is better than the irish one too. Neither are better on paper, but on the field they do a better job. All I can look to is the team mechanics. Even after the weekend there, I noticed Foley had done a much better job with Ferris and SOB than we have seen previously.