I do not like the IW and Miami TMSs!

It's no news for some but here are the reasons:

1 - What do they bring on the table? We have had 9 months almost of consecutive HC....there is nothing else we want to know about HC...especially slow HC!
2 -Right I can understand one of the two...but 2 in a row? Let's say Djoko wins one...he is the best on HC! Then Murray wins the other...he is the new best player on HC?
3 - It woudl be great to give Miami's slot to SOuth America. They really deserve a TMS with all the great players they have produced and it shoudl be on clay as a great introduction to the clay season!
4 - They are usually very windy, very hot and noisy. Remember that copter which hovered about the final in 2005 for a couple of sets!!!
5 - They sell us teh events as being a 2 weeks tournament when we know that everything happens in the last week. The last part of teh last week. Rip off!
6 - Last but not least, IW is owned by my former boss Larry Ellison, a megalo-maniac suggesting we should cycle to work when he owns the biggest private yacht in the world. He is also going to the gym and has face lift at 65+.

The only issue with what you have said for the players would be issue number 3. South America has a high crime rate and I am sure the players would not fancy spending a week in Brazil or Argentina. Something that is untried and untested usually gets a big thumbs down. also not taking into the account the poverty and gap in wealth between the rich and the poor is quite big. I just think such an event could prove to be unsustainable and I am not sure I would which companies would like to attach their name to the event. Shanghai is an event which is not yielding the attendances of such an event.

Also do we need to lengthen the Clay season? I would much rather see another Grass event take it's place at the 1000 table.

Some top seeds already go to SA. I don;t think there is any security issue there. Less likely to have a fool going into a shooting rampage there than further north.

I don't mind the clay season. It's great actually..especially since all the top players play it. And teh clay season is still way shorter than teh HC season and is less damaging to the body.

The HC shoudl be eaten up by the clay and grass one.

LK... the golden swing in LatAm is well managed. Flavia Pennetta had recently made a comment about being happy with Acapulco security (cannot find the link).

If the Clay season can be started earlier, perhaps room can be made for a Grass masters.

Tenez wrote:
6 - Last but not least, IW is owned by my former boss Larry Ellison, a megalo-maniac suggesting we should cycle to work when he owns the biggest private yacht in the world. He is also going to the gym and has face lift at 65+.

He still cannot cycle on water. . BTW, he had bought a MiG 25 for his son, IIRC.

There are many others who are megalomaniacs, including some Tennis players.

It's a shame they could run them around AO, and have them as AO prep, like they have Cincy and Toronto before USO

noleisthebest wrote:It's a shame they could run them around AO, and have them as AO prep, like they have Cincy and Toronto before USO

The Aussies would never have that for various reasons, which I agree is sad. The Golf season has a much better organisation of the 'big 4" with a decent build-up to the Masters as the 1st and then sensible separation between the rest. I've said many times that IW/Miami would have far greater relevance (to me at least) if they came earlier and before AO which marked the end of the slowish HC season and the beginning of the full-on clay season.

I suspect that the ATP Tour is beyond such radical surgery on the schedule.

These tournaments only came in in the 1990s I think and I think it was a missed opportunity to expand the game more globally since North America already had 2 historic hard court tournaments. It would have been nice at the time if they gone to a clay masters in South America instead.

At the end of the day, they have just gone for money and a safe choice and there were more US players at the top too when they brought those in.

An ITF employee told me recently that some tournaments are now struggling to make money. He was not specific about which ones....but it seems clearly linked to the economical crisis.

How much would I love to see a Masters on the oldest tennis surface, grass.

Of course, I have attended IW for a number of years and it really is a good tournament with a pretty nice facility. Miami as well is often seen as a really big event and the players love going there in the spring. If anything I would take cincy away and extend the grass court season and add a grass masters. By the time Cincy rolls around the players are too tired to care and too focused on the USO after another gruelling hardcourt swing. IW and Miami in my mind are better events than Cincy and in much bigger markets, which for the financial interests of the game is very important. IW's is the biggest tournament in southern california and on the entire west coast, the west coast slam. And Ca is hotbead of tennis activity. Miami also a big market and an attractive tour locale. Cincy seems superflous to me. You already have Canda before the US open at the masters level.

socal1976 wrote: Cincy seems superflous to me.

Does it have anything to do with the court speed of Cincy?

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:How much would I love to see a Masters on the oldest tennis surface, grass.

Hear hear!

Actually, I would like the AO to revert to grass. Even if slow grass as they had then.

laverfan wrote:

socal1976 wrote: Cincy seems superflous to me.

Does it have anything to do with the court speed of Cincy?

No not really Laverfan, I am thinking of the marketing aspects for the game. Cincy is just a miniscule market compared to southern california. It would be like having a choice of cutting a tourney in London or a tournament in some small town in the middle of the country that nobody gets to. Besides I want it to be replaced with a grass tournament so I don't want to replace cincy with a slow court hardcourt or clay. LA and Southern CA is just a bigger more valuable market.

socal1976 wrote:
Cincy is just a miniscule market compared to southern california.

That is not correct, based on the following....

For IW...

In 2011, 350,086 people attended the event, marking a more than ten fold increase since the start of the event.

http://www.bnpparibasopen.com/About/Tournament-History.aspx

For Cincinatti....

The Western & Southern Masters and Women's Open set an event attendance record in 2010, with a total of 233,775 fans attending the two-week event. The previous high mark was set in 2009 when approximate 225,000 people visited the Lindner Family Tennis Center in Mason, OH.

http://www.cincytennis.com/2010_attendance/

For 2010, from the same article,

A look at 2010 attendance for some comparative non-Grand Slam events that host both the ATP and WTA tours:

BNP Paribas Open (Indian Wells, CA) -- 339,657
Sony Ericsson Open (Miami, FL) -- 312,386
Western & Southern Masters and Women's Open (Cincinnati, OH) -- 233,775
Matua Madrilena Open (Madrid, Spain) -- 205,488
Internationali BNL d'Italia (Rome, Italy) -- 122.880 (men)


SoCal, should Rome and Madrid be cancelled due to lower attendance?

Not down to attendance alone Laverfan. Cincy is not a big television market. Within 150 miles of Indian Wells you have both San Diego and LA, population about 10 times of the greater cincy area. More live viewers, more media coverage, and more tv viewers for IW compared to cincy. I am glad to see that indian wells kicks ass and takes names from the numbers you have provided.

I think we need a grass court masters. And the obvious place to find a grass court masters is among the 4 outdoor hardcourt events. Of the 4 hardcourt outdoors IW, Miami, Cincy, and Canada easily the one that doesn't make the cut is cincy. Too close in time to the US open. And a smaller market than the other 2 US masters. Plus the Canadian Open as it used to be called has a bit of the history and the fact that it is the only real tour event in Canada.

By the way Henman Bill, IW is the successor of the palm springs tournament they are in neighboring cities and has been a stop on the tour since the 70s.

socal1976 wrote:Not down to attendance alone Laverfan. Cincy is not a big television market. Within 150 miles of Indian Wells you have both San Diego and LA, population about 10 times of the greater cincy area. More live viewers, more media coverage, and more tv viewers for IW compared to cincy. I am glad to see that indian wells kicks ass and takes names from the numbers you have provided.

I think we need a grass court masters. And the obvious place to find a grass court masters is among the 4 outdoor hardcourt events. Of the 4 hardcourt outdoors IW, Miami, Cincy, and Canada easily the one that doesn't make the cut is cincy. Too close in time to the US open. And a smaller market than the other 2 US masters. Plus the Canadian Open as it used to be called has a bit of the history and the fact that it is the only real tour event in Canada.

It is not a small market as you indicate....

The 2011 television schedule for the Western & Southern Open boasted over 60 hours of original domestic programming from our three broadcast partners.

Total 2011 TV audiences were the largest ever:

Domestic: 8.65 million viewers
International: 50.3 million viewers
TOTAL: 58.9 million viewers

Yes, IW is potentially bigger....

The television audience of the tournament has grown from 25 million homes to nearly a billion homes worldwide

This is potential viewership, not actuals as reported by Cincy.

You also side-stepped my Madrid/Rome question?

No I didn't, I think you look to balance on the tour. Madrid and Rome being the only two mandatory clay court Masters I think makes it harder to take it away from one of those towns. We have a plethora of hardcourt masters and if we want a grass court masters cincy is the obvious candidate for cutting. Paris or Cincy, Cincy gets cut. Shanghai or Cincy again Cincy gets cut. Plus if you want to have a masters on grass you will invariably have to shorten the summer hardcourt swing. Can't play outdoors in new york in October as well as you can in September.

If you look at the masters level cities: IW (greater LA), Miami, Cincy, Toronto, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Shanghai, and London. If you want to find the odd duck in the mix it is cincy.

And by the way your own research shows more live and potential TV viewers for IW than for Cincy. But again I am only saying cut Cincy if we can find away to extend the grass court season and add a grass masters. I don't think we should cut cincy without said qualifications. It does fine for itself although it usually is not very exciting. I would have trouble walking to the corner market in Cincy in August with humidity levels approaching hades let alone playing tennis on it. Murderous humidity that time of the year in that part of the country. Thank god I live in perfect weather in socal.

I have to say last years Cincy was one of the worst tournaments I can remember. Murray was almost the last man standing, with every second match seemingly ending with a retirement.

Ah, socal as in SOuthern CALifornia. I have heard the phrase before (it's not much used in Europe for sure) but only just made the connection.

I went to Indian Wells last year. It was a glorious opportunity as I had a business trip scheduled to Northern California anyway and had to stay over that weekend and even was able to use the car I had rented for work and just pay the petrol. So I ended up buying tickets for the men's semis and finals about a week in advance and took a big drive down from San Fran. Ended up staying in a cheap motel with all good hotels gone already, driving though desert and mountain passes covered with thick snow. It was all quite cool. Just hours after the final and the heat of the desert I found out that the main road from LA to San Francisco was closed down due to heavy snow on a pass (in March! who'd have thought it!), leading to a massive detour. In intense driving rain I came within a second of smashing into a wreck of a car left in the middle of the road abandoned with no lights on, but managed a last second swerve. Of course, there was no such weather in IW itself. It is just one of those desert places artificially greenified.

Anyway, the tickets for the lower tier were about £200 and upper tier nearer £50 so that was an easy choice. The Federer-Djokovic semi final was extremely high quality, certainly the best quality match I'd seen with the intensity of the bsaeline rallies. Missed out on the Fedal final as Djokovic won but still saw Wozniacki in the women's final too as well as Nadal-Del Potro and Nadal-Djokovic. Was interesting to see Nadal's spin and the way it moves in the air. I also managed an extremely quick getaway after the final in an attempt to get back for Monday's business meeting in San Fransico, left the stadium at a run on the handshake and made the highway in about 5 minutes.

It was a pleasant enough place. There was a lot of chit chat in the crowd and other noise like rubbish blowing around in the wind. I've this is quite common at tennis in the US. I also see FEderer play doubleswith Warwinka, which he also lost.

Socal, the problem you've got with getting rid of Cincinatti is the history. According to wikipedia, "The event started on September 18, 1899 and is the oldest tennis tournament in the United States played in its original city".

For me there is an intractable problem that they've created by having 4 North America (3 US) Masters. You can't get rid of Cincinatti because of the history. You have a similar problem with Canada: According to my friend wikipedia again, "The men's tournament began in 1881, and was held at the Toronto Lawn Tennis Club, while the women's competition was first held in 1892. Of the major tennis tournaments in the world today, only Wimbledon and the US Open have been around as long." So, given this, how can we delete one in Canada and leave all three in the US? Then what does that leave, get rid of Miami, the 5th slam?! No. OK, get rid of Indian Wells, so what just knock down the 2nd biggest tennis stadium in the world leaving 3 masters east coast and not one west coast? No.

I had a look at this when I decided for a laugh to redesign the calendar. 4 masters out of 9 in North America which doesn't even have a top 5-10 player - yes it is too much, but which one do you get rid of? Very hard.

For me the solution is to get rid of the compulsory obligation to play all masters, shorten the calendar by having them 1 week events next to each other (so some players play only 1 of each 2) and letting the players decide.

Paris looks the best candidate for deletion to me or downgrade to a 500. They already have a slam and it's in an increasingly cr*ppy slot of the calendar. It doesn't have a lengthy history and there is too much hard.

OP is upset because his idol Federer cannot win titles on slow outdoor HC anymore.

Really enjoyed reading your posts Henman bill. It really is a great facility isn't it. Big stadium that doesn't feel that cavernous and has good sight lines. So you have been through my state, hope you had a chance to eat a double double cheeseburger from in-n-out. People in Europe who have never driven North to south CA maybe don't get a true feel for how big cali is. When I went to IW in 08 went with a cute girl who knew nothing about tennis but had just the best time. We had 9th row seats Djoko his an autographed ball right at her and she got a souvenier ball out of it as well.

I agree with much of what you have to say I know cincy and Rogers/Canadian open are historic and I respect that but cincy is a real problematic and ill fitting spot for a first tier signature event. First the closeness in time between it and the US open. Secondly, it is a smaller market and media center than every other Masters. Thirdly, the weather is attrocious in that part of the country in August that is why we see all the players breakdown. Wasn't the weather glorious in the CA desert? And like you said the west coast has IW as its slam. The timing of it in the schedule for me just makes it really bad, two masters and US open right after wimby gets brutal especially with DC and all the other little tournaments in the US hardcourts from La, atlanta, indianapolis.

ryan86 wrote:I have to say last years Cincy was one of the worst tournaments I can remember. Murray was almost the last man standing, with every second match seemingly ending with a retirement.

It usually is not that great of tournament Ryan. Humidity in that part of the country in August is nightmarish. And it is like a week before the US open. Another wonderful fast court tournament that also lends itself to a lot of short choppy points and matches, the heat plays a role for sure. I wouldn't go for a walk in the park in that part of the country that time of year. I kid u not it can have u sweating after you get out of the shower get dressed and walk down the stairs.

There has been talk of converting Cincy to indoors rather than outdoors.

USO inevitably gets rained on and has had 4 Monday finals, IIRC.

IW/Miami are slow hard-courts, unlike Cincy. There is always the 'blue-clay' analogy that goes with IW/Miami.

BTW, Miami is also very humid, it is not just Cincy.

Temperature/Relative Humidity (AM/PM)

Cincy - August 72.2 87% 57%
Miami - March 71.7 82% 56%


http://www.cityrating.com/cityweather.asp?City=Miami

http://www.cityrating.com/cityweather.asp?city=Cincinnati

Yeah, not a big fan of miami its just southern california with back breaking humidity. Its hard living in a dry temperate climate that feels like late spring 10 months oout of the year. But someone has to do it I suppose. The east coast has crappy weather. HUmid summers brutally cold winters.

To me I just think the ATP tour has to really focus on marketing the 1000 pointers and has to select the limited number of masters events carefully. I disagree in this that I like the mandatory aspects of each tournament and how they all have grandslam level fields for the most part. I think the game has to go more global and look to get into as many bigger markets as possible. I would really like to see a thousand pointer on grass and that means cutting someone, the one I would cut would be cincy. The timing of the tournament kind of stinks to, right before the US open.

socal1976 wrote:Really enjoyed reading your posts Henman bill. It really is a great facility isn't it. Big stadium that doesn't feel that cavernous and has good sight lines. So you have been through my state, hope you had a chance to eat a double double cheeseburger from in-n-out. People in Europe who have never driven North to south CA maybe don't get a true feel for how big cali is. When I went to IW in 08 went with a cute girl who knew nothing about tennis but had just the best time. We had 9th row seats Djoko his an autographed ball right at her and she got a souvenier ball out of it as well.

I agree with much of what you have to say I know cincy and Rogers/Canadian open are historic and I respect that but cincy is a real problematic and ill fitting spot for a first tier signature event. First the closeness in time between it and the US open. Secondly, it is a smaller market and media center than every other Masters. Thirdly, the weather is attrocious in that part of the country in August that is why we see all the players breakdown. Wasn't the weather glorious in the CA desert? And like you said the west coast has IW as its slam. The timing of it in the schedule for me just makes it really bad, two masters and US open right after wimby gets brutal especially with DC and all the other little tournaments in the US hardcourts from La, atlanta, indianapolis.

It's a nice enough stadium and place. Some people wouldn't like it. You can easily imagine that 50 years ago or something there was nothing there, and I mean the whole town, not just the stadium. Early to mid March is very good scheduling for IW because the temperature is perfect, and, of course no rain out there for most of the year. You couldn't have IW in the summer, it would be too hot. I do believe there is a rest week after Cincinatti and the US Open, I think it makes sense as a schedule. The bigger issue is why the US gets the whole of March in addition to its main hard court season. My solution would be to put the US Open back a bit and put Miami in late August/early September, IW in mid to late September, and free up March for South America or something. With all 4 of the current masters in July-September, the players coud pick and choose their favourites and just play 2-3 of these.

Never had the specific burger you mentioned but have had plenty of that type of thing but not exactly that. American food is among the best in the world and I'm fairly well travelled, certainly better than UK food.

Henman Bill wrote:Never had the specific burger you mentioned but have had plenty of that type of thing but not exactly that. American food is among the best in the world and I'm fairly well travelled, certainly better than UK food.

I am not sure I'd agree with that actually.

They have great meat restaurant in the US, but I find their exotic food pretty average compared to London or Europe as a whole.

London or Europe is a different story, but what about "the provinces" a mid size city in the US vs a mid size city in the UK. The UK is full of family pubs serving the same old predictable fare with limited flavour and seasoning while the US is more adventurous and fuller taste. Texas is good. Last time I was there I had a pizza with nuts and peach and onions. It sounds wierd but the whole thing worked beautifully. This was no fancy restaurant, just a pizza place in a mall.

As for the tennis, nothing on Sky yet. Guess they aren't interested until Murray turns up.

Yes I agree that outside London, it's another story.

I have only done big cities in the US and I must say I food is tasty but generally not subtle.

Typically you can great tasty pizza with ton of cheese and peperoni etc..but it doesn;t beat a Pizza from Marseille or Naple imo.

I hate in great restaurant in Chicago, SF, Minn, Las Vegas and Boston but even their lobsters, though big and healthy are again not as good as in the Mediterannee.

I love eating in the USA, especially since all the great restaurants I went were paid off by my company so it tasted even better but I am just more used to a European cuisine. Much richer in taste imo.

Tenez and henman bill, I have eaten food in europe and in the middle east and in mexico. US has great food. As Tenez says if you go to the states, I have one word for what you should select: Steak, Steak, and then some more steak. No country in the world does a steak like the states prime aged meat in special lockers. Also if you happen to make it as far as CA or Vegas you must have a double doube at IN-N-OUt. YOu may not have tasted a burger before. Apple Pan only in west LA is really good to. By the way big cities in the states kills the ethnic foods of Europe. Minus London for the Indian food and also the arabic cuisine stronger in Europe. But LA has great sushi and mexican and New York has great ethnic resturants. Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, Madrid don't compare. US has much better sushi and chinese especially LA and San Fran.

Berlin in particular outside of sweets had crappy food.

socal1976 wrote:
US has much better sushi and chinese especially LA and San Fran.

That maybe but London would beat US in greek, Italian, Spanish food almost anywhere in the US.

I only went once in an asian restaurant in Boston hailed as a great one by a Bostonian...it was .

The food discussion is very interesting.

I prefer European to US food.

Middle Eastern cuisine is my favourite.

laverfan wrote:The food discussion is very interesting.

I prefer European to US food.

Middle Eastern cuisine is my favourite.

Same here.

I think it's too easy to generalise about national quality levels and types of food. I travel the world in my job and have had great and poor meals in just about every country, and of course what we like to eat is a subjective discussion. As they say 'one man's meat is another man's poison'....

One of the lovely things about travel is the local cuisine - and the local wine, of course.

Don't know about Boston Tenez, west coast is kind of the hotbed of sushi. Interesting in that both you and Laverfan love middle eastern cuisine. Lydian I agree, you can always have good or bad meals anywhere and we are talking generalities. But I will take a good american steak house anyday over the steaks in europe. Big fat one pound plus rib eye, medium rare of course. Also a bigtime must barbecued pork spare ribs in bbq sauce. Yum.

socal1976 wrote:Don't know about Boston Tenez, west coast is kind of the hotbed of sushi. Interesting in that both you and Laverfan love middle eastern cuisine. Lydian I agree, you can always have good or bad meals anywhere and we are talking generalities. But I will take a good american steak house anyday over the steaks in europe. Big fat one pound plus rib eye, medium rare of course. Also a bigtime must barbecued pork spare ribs in bbq sauce. Yum.

How anyone can eat sushi is beyond me

time please wrote:One of the lovely things about travel is the local cuisine - and the local wine, of course.

can't disagree with this I''m yet to travel to a place where I don't like the food at all, though sometimes it takes getting used to. French cuisine is still the best though

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

time please wrote:One of the lovely things about travel is the local cuisine - and the local wine, of course.

can't disagree with this I''m yet to travel to a place where I don't like the food at all, though sometimes it takes getting used to. French cuisine is still the best though

I take it you haven't been to China & Korea then

noleisthebest wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

time please wrote:One of the lovely things about travel is the local cuisine - and the local wine, of course.

can't disagree with this I''m yet to travel to a place where I don't like the food at all, though sometimes it takes getting used to. French cuisine is still the best though

I take it you haven't been to China & Korea then

nope, only been to Japan and Singapore in the far east, though food in both places was very good. My brother's going to Korea pretty soon, so expecting a full update on Korean food from him.

noleisthebest wrote:

I take it you haven't been to China & Korea then

I have been to Beijing, Nanjing, Shenzen. Chinese food is very nice, especially, if you have a local person in the know to help you.

laverfan wrote:

noleisthebest wrote:

I take it you haven't been to China & Korea then

I have been to Beijing, Nanjing, Shenzen. Chinese food is very nice, especially, if you have a local person in the know to help you.

I did. Mind you I was there in March 2003. SARS outbreak....

noleisthebest wrote:

I did. Mind you I was there in March 2003. SARS outbreak....

Feel for you.

...you cant beat strawberries and cream at Wimbledon on a warm summer's day, quintessentially the best of British!

lydian wrote:...you cant beat strawberries and cream at Wimbledon on a warm summer's day, quintessentially the best of British!

and buckets of Pimms to wash them down with ...............and a ride home!

time please wrote:

lydian wrote:...you cant beat strawberries and cream at Wimbledon on a warm summer's day, quintessentially the best of British!

and buckets of Pimms to wash them down with ...............and a ride home!

Grilled vegetables & seabass, mountain of fresh salad and a bowl of olives, icy-cold house white anywhere in European Med does it for me