Scots and Irish sports culture

Interesting piece in the Herald today from His Kevness and one that is worth repeating in full here (if the mods have no objections):

The Rangers story tells us we need to rethink our sporting culture

All major media outlets have indulged in the corporate equivalent of suicide watch in the past few weeks as one half of the Old Firm has torn itself apart and that, in itself, is an indication of the importance of Rangers and Celtic to Scottish culture.

However, in real terms that is where interest in Scottish sport begins and ends for a disturbing number of our citizens and, as understandable as it has been for the two clubs to exploit that to the maximum, it has had a suffocating effect on all other sporting activity.

Long before Rangers' troubles were of sufficient significance to register with the London-based networks and newspapers, we had only to look at the balance of coverage of sport within the Scottish media.

Sports bulletins on Scotland Today or Reporting Scotland have invariably started with a Celtic or Rangers story for decades and the same applies to the back pages of, in particular, Scottish tabloid newspapers.

That is not an indictment of those outlets since their output merely reflects the supposed Scottish obsession with sport which goes no further than people aligning themselves passionately, to the point of fanaticism, with one or other of these clubs.

What all of this also means, though, is that any individual or, more particularly, business looking to gain benefit from sponsoring sport in Scotland looks first and foremost at ways of investing in the Old Firm.

Those clubs themselves are businesses, a long way removed from their origins when set up purely as sports clubs, so have been perfectly entitled to take the view that this was all right for them and that the broader considerations of what was good for Scottish sport was not their problem.

However, Rangers' collapse and the impact that looks like having on the rest of the Scottish Premier League is forcing people to think again.

This week there was a documentary on BBC Scotland asking what needed to be done to improve Scotland's footballing fortunes, followed by a debate on the subject.

My own view is that it missed the point, though, because they talked about football in isolation.

What has to be done if Scottish football is to improve is for Scottish sport to improve. That requires a cultural change.

Does Scottish football need Rangers? That is debatable. Does Scottish sport need to revolve around Celtic and Rangers? I would suggest quite the opposite.

Examples abound all over the world. Mention New Zealand and sport and, inevitably, we all think of the All Blacks, but anyone who has visited that country, significantly smaller than Scotland in population, will know that sports such as sailing, cricket and netball are granted considerable media coverage and support.

If that's a bit too far away for us to grasp, then how about an example from closer to home. Many of its residents may head over to Scotland on ferries every weekend to support the Old Firm, not to mention Liverpool, Manchester United and other clubs in the Barclays Premier League, but Ireland's sporting culture is vastly superior to that of Scotland.

Looking at what I consider to be the three major team sports: the Irish football team have qualified for the European Championships and was a Thierry Henry palm away from reaching the World Cup in South Africa; their national rugby team have won a grand slam and three triple crowns in the past decade, while Ulster, Munster and Leinster have all been European champions; and their cricketers are now well ahead of Scotland in the rankings, with many players on the books of English counties.

Scotland may lay claim to being the Home of Golf, but Ireland is the home of Rory McIlroy, the current world No.1 while three others – Padraig Harrington, Graham McDowell and Darren Clarke – have all won majors since Paul Lawrie won his Open Championship.

Perhaps because no big corporate entities have predominated, Irish sporting culture is sufficiently broad that it has been able to adapt to opportunities as they arise. Twenty years ago, anyone suggesting that their provincial rugby teams would garner attention and support that was anywhere close to that of Gaelic Athletic Association sports would have been laughed at. Yet when rugby turned professional, there was no shortage of youngsters possessed of the necessary skills.

Some in the Gaelic games community doubtless detest rugby's rise and those of us whose main interest is in the wider world of sport have long observed a similar isolationist attitude within a significant section of the Scottish football community. They should note that Irish rugby's rise has not been to the detriment of other sports, but has been part of a golden age of sport in their country.

Instead of seeking to preserve Rangers' status or that of Scottish football, the real challenge is encouraging our youngsters to participate, rather than merely support. In the long term that will be good for Scottish sport as a whole, good for Scottish football and maybe even good for the Old Firm.

On the basis that most Scots would cite the weather as the reason why we are not a nation of toned, bronze gods who jogged to school flicking a rugby ball around on each hand, the comparison with Ireland is very interesting.

I'd be interested to know (especially from the usual Irish talent on the boards):

1. What informs the Irish sporting culture? Is it as simple as well defined regional rivalry?

2. What were posters' experience of sports at school? Did sports like Gaelic football and hurling predominate? I realise that it depends on the school.

3. Why the gap in both aptitude and ambition between Ireland and Scotland? Are infrastructure and opportunities the determining factor? Or something else?

Please for the love of feck no WUMMing on this thread.

You know that the e-wedgie and deletion will be coming. So don't do it.

Many thanks.

Good questions George. I suppose the answers depend on what part of the Island you are from and what sport you are talking about.

Some sports are played and administered on an all - Ireland basis like Rugby, Cricket, Golf, boxing and to some extent GAA and others aren't like soccer.

My own experience was that I went to a rugby playing grammar school and had zero exposure to GAA. At any level of rugby you aspire to represent your province and then your country. Soccer is the most popular sport where I am but it is still a fairly divided sport on sectarian lines.

In terms of Rugby Ireland have very good provincial model but its not perfect. Its still too focused on the grammar schools in Ulster and I'd imagine a lot of talent is lost to GAA and soccer or just lost full stop in areas where rugby has little exposure.

Golf is obviously popular here and perhaps the accessibility of top quality Golf courses at reasonable prices has helped in producing some great golfers. Golf is a fairly classless sport here which isn't always the case elsewhere. I believe McIlroy is not from a wealthy background nor is McDowell.

I wouldn't say Ireland are better at sport per se than Scotland. In terms of Soccer we don't have a fully professional league and most of the top players are based overseas. Scotland have a number of World champion boxers in recent times and there are people like Chris Hoy. A lot of the best soccer managers are Scottish : Sir Alex, Moyes etc.

A lot of sports we are still underperforming and certainly in Rugby we've been out performed by Wales who have probably less resources.

The article doesn't mention the huge sporting world of the GAA much, or the popularity of Athletics or Boxing. In my experience, the author is right. Ireland has a great sporting culture; compared to Scotland, a lot more people are involved in sport as participants and there is interest in a much broader range of sports.

The key for Scotland is to get more people involved in sport- not just football.

roddersm wrote:Good questions George. I suppose the answers depend on what part of the Island you are from and what sport you are talking about.

Some sports are played and administered on an all - Ireland basis like Rugby, Cricket, Golf, boxing and to some extent GAA and others aren't like soccer.

My own experience was that I went to a rugby playing grammar school and had zero exposure to GAA. At any level of rugby you aspire to represent your province and then your country. Soccer is the most popular sport where I am but it is still a fairly divided sport on sectarian lines.

In terms of Rugby Ireland have very good provincial model but its not perfect. Its still too focused on the grammar schools in Ulster and I'd imagine a lot of talent is lost to GAA and soccer or just lost full stop in areas where rugby has little exposure.

Golf is obviously popular here and perhaps the accessibility of top quality Golf courses at reasonable prices has helped in producing some great golfers. Golf is a fairly classless sport here which isn't always the case elsewhere. I believe McIlroy is not from a wealthy background nor is McDowell.

I wouldn't say Ireland are better at sport per se than Scotland. In terms of Soccer we don't have a fully professional league and most of the top players are based overseas. Scotland have a number of World champion boxers in recent times and there are people like Chris Hoy. A lot of the best soccer managers are Scottish : Sir Alex, Moyes etc.

A lot of sports we are still underperforming and certainly in Rugby we've been out performed by Wales who have probably less resources.

To be fair Rodders, we probably have less rseources than you but when it comes to rugby in this country eveything else might as well be put on the back burner. As soon as you have a son in Wales the farthers asperations for him are to put on the sacred red jersey, so other sports such as golf or cricket do not get as much coverage, also other than the English premeirship and Cardiff and Swansea all other football is on the back burner here in Wales also. Rugby on the other hand is life in Wales and that is why we probebly puch above our wieght so to speak.

I accept the Lord Dowlis, I think thats why Wales produce such skillfull backs because they don't lose their talented footballers to other sports.

My point is that Ireland is not a great example of a great sporting culture.

There are always exceptions who break the mould: Barry McGuigan, Mary Peters, The rugby teams, Roy Keane, Rory McIroy, Sonia O'Sullivan, George Best, Alex Higgins etc. and it drags others along to a higher level but generally we're mediocre at most sports.

Rugby and Golf are exceptions not the rule.

Notch we're rubbish at athletics mate!

roddersm wrote:I accept the Lord Dowlis, I think thats why Wales produce such skillfull backs because they don't lose their talented footballers to other sports.

My point is that Ireland is not a great example of a great sporting culture.

There are always exceptions who break the mould: Barry McGuigan, Mary Peters, The rugby teams, Roy Keane, Rory McIroy, Sonia O'Sullivan, George Best, Alex Higgins etc. and it drags others along to a higher level but generally we're mediocre at most sports.

Rugby and Golf are exceptions not the rule.

Notch we're rubbish at athletics mate!

Rodders, being a great sporting culture might have nothing to do with how successful you are at elite level. Its about how involved people are at grassroots level.

You're focusing on success- we have a great sporting culture because much more people are involved in sport. Simple. The elite level represents a relatively small percentage of the people who are involved in sport.

Fair point notch. You are right we have a good level of grass roots participation across a wide variety of sports.

But yes at elite level we're probably not quite as successful as we should be for various reasons. For one a lot of the facilities are rubbish.

Notch, has that always been the case in terms of grassroots participation, or is it something that was linked to the Celtic tiger effect?

I think it's always been the case. If anything, any affluence meant people where more likely to spend their weekends watching sport than playing it! Weekend trips to Old Trafford, Sky Sports etc.

2. What were posters' experience of sports at school? Did sports like Gaelic football and hurling predominate? I realise that it depends on the school

It entirely depends on the school but for example, in my primary school we only played Gaelic football and hurling competitively. We played a couple of other sports during PE but NEVER soccer or rugby. They were kinda forbidden. But then my mates went to a different primary school (not fee paying) where they played Gaelic football, hurling and soccer. In general if you want to play rugby in secondary school you have to go a fee paying school, not always the case but in general it is.

Flip forgot to mention the Belfast Giants at ice Hockey!

Been away from Home for quite a few years now, but when I was a lad growing up in the 80's in Ulster the Protestant Grammar schools all played rugby, the Protestant High Schools all played soccer (with a little bit of rugby mixed in, not literally!) and the Catholic secondary schools also played soccer but not often rugby.
Is it still that way?

Also the local clubs at underage level tended to have teams filled with big lumps with little skill in comparison to the grammar schools.
I recall playing against Ballymena RC U16's and was surprised when most of them had beards!!

Maybe the real difference between Ireland and Scotland in the diversity, participation and reasonable success rates in sport is simply down to us being a different country.

Sometimes when we're on these boards, we tend to let our differences evaporate (well, the Welsh/English debaters can speak for themselves of course! ) but we mostly let our differences evaporate and speak in terms of commonality (Home Nations, The Lions, NH v SH)

The truth though is that beyond the keyboard we live in often quite different cultures, we have different values, different priorities and truly, despite the common links certainly between the northern part of Ireland and Scotland, different attitudes, personalities, character traits that define us as being English, Irish, Welsh or Scottish. It often really does go much deeper than the colour of your shirt, it really is often in your genes.

I think Irish are a gregarious people - they tend to like company, they tend to like talking, and they tend to like activities that connect those two things - company and talking.

In work, that's a requirement and therefore it doesn't fullfil the needs. (Although the amount of chat and banter that takes places in Irish workplaces would still be more than the average in other countries I'd assume! From my experience, it's pervasive) But if work doesn't satisfy the lust for company and things to talk about, sport very often does. Go to a game, shout abuse at the other parish players, go back to a pub, chat about the details, go to work and rib your workmates about their poor performances.

I think a large part of our love of sport (if not such a large part involves our greatness at any of them!!! Second best will always tend to be enough for us)... a large part of our love of diverse sports and involvement in them is down to just who we are as a people.

roddersm wrote:Fair point notch. You are right we have a good level of grass roots participation across a wide variety of sports.

But yes at elite level we're probably not quite as successful as we should be for various reasons. For one a lot of the facilities are rubbish.

The main reason I think Ireland aren't as successful at athletics,soccer,rugby etc.. as we should be is because a massive percentage of our best athletes spend their lives playing G.A.A.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

roddersm wrote:Fair point notch. You are right we have a good level of grass roots participation across a wide variety of sports.

But yes at elite level we're probably not quite as successful as we should be for various reasons. For one a lot of the facilities are rubbish.

The main reason I think Ireland aren't as successful at athletics,soccer,rugby etc.. as we should be is because a massive percentage of our best athletes spend their lives playing G.A.A.

I tend to agree, but If losing the GAA meant that Ireland were more successful at other sports then victory would come a too high a price.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:... because a massive percentage of our best athletes spend their lives playing G.A.A.

...And drinking! Drinking away the muscle and conditioning they take all week trying to grow and sustain in training.

First of all I can’t really comment on the Irish sporting culture much.

I think there are a few reasons for poor Scottish sporting success

We are a nation of watchers rather than players, it is amazing to me the number of good players that I have known that go to uni or get a job and never play sport of any sort again. I know that every nation loses players when they discover drink/women but in Scotland this seems to be really high to me. There seems no drive to do something.

In rugby this may be that if you are not in the Scotland U18 team or there about you will always be an armature player. Even then it is ok to be travelling to the other side of the country every 2nd week when you are young with no commitments but when you gain some responsibilities this may not be the case.

PE was very basic and the team games where either football/hockey in the summer or basketball in the winter. The only team we had was a football team and if it were not for a few friends playing in it I would not have known we had one. When I look at the facilities outside school they are also poor in comparison to the ones I have seen as I went round the world and even those where I stay in England. Is it any wonder the 2 wold class athletes we have had recently have had to leave Scotland to train/develop (Hoy and Murray)

The government as well does not help. They seem all too happy to fund football from the public purse but that is not extended to sport as a whole. Instead of the stupid trams in Edinburgh why did we not concentrate on building CHEAP sports facilities ACROSS Scotland so that all people have easy access to them??

G.A.A is one reason for that yes but I think the main reason is that apart from in Rugby union we don't have the domestic infastructure, facilities or coaches to produce world class teams and athletes.

I think we are creating a bit of a myth here that we are a nation sports participants.

We are a nation of drinkers, moaners and gamblers who for the most part are terrified of competition, eliteism and failure.

There are plenty of exceptions but that's what they are. Exceptions.

Do more people participate in recreational sport than Scotland? What is that assumption based on?

In terms of elite sport I'm not convinced we are that successful and many of our best athletes have gone abroad to reach their potential.

Mickado wrote:

I tend to agree, but If losing the GAA meant that Ireland were more successful at other sports then victory would come a too high a price.

Oh yeah I'd never want to see us lose the G.A.A. senior club hurling in Meath is the main live sporting event I attend so you can see I love the G.A.A.

However as a rugby fan I'd like to see it less dominant,for example in Meath we currently have about 60 G.A.A. clubs compared to 5 rugby clubs and 2 of those rugby clubs are less than 3 years old.I just want to see kids have the chance to play everything and choose for themselves what they play.I never got to play rugby until I was 23 and that is true for tens of thousands of kids over the country,it means that some kids who are mediocre at G.A.A. but could excel at other sports never get the chance.

Just saw fly's post on the drinking and have to agree with that but to paraphrase Mickado if losing the local pubs meant meant that Ireland were more successful at other sports then victory would come a too high a price.

I've always laughed amongst family and friends that the differences between Irish athletes in the International arena is that whilst others celebrate medals - bronze, silver or gold - Irish athletes celebrate PBs (Personal Bests)...even though the PBs mean they haven't reached the final heat...and the heat they did reach they came last in!

And yet, you have that athletics guy with the frizzy head on RTE rejoicing at the PBs and giving out to those who bemoan the PB times as failure. Hate to break it to him but that's what they are - failure, on tax payers money.

SecretFly wrote:I've always laughed amongst family and friends that the differences between Irish athletes in the International arena is that whilst others celebrate medals - bronze, silver or gold - Irish athletes celebrate PBs (Personal Bests)...even though the PBs mean they haven't reached the final heat...and the heat they did reach they came last in!

And yet, you have that athletics guy with the frizzy head on RTE rejoicing at the PBs and giving out to those who bemoan the PB times as failure. Hate to break it to him but that's what they are - failure, on tax payers money.

That's a bit harsh as athletics is an individual sport it's extremely hard to reach the top it's not like for example being the 20th best in the world at something is a failure.As long as the athlete has improved then it means they've achieved something.

roddersm wrote:Flip forgot to mention the Belfast Giants at ice Hockey!

blow ins

Really cant get excited about 2nd rate Americans who are parachuted in and have no local base - clearly it excites some others though

Hmmm, saying we are rubbish at athletics is a little harsh. Track & field are not currently producing very talented Irish or Northern Irish athletes, but our middle distance & cross country runners (Women in particular) are indeed, world standard. That forms part of our athletic tradition and are events that many many countries take very seriously.

On a population basis, while not all current pbviously, I'd profer that Ireland on a pound for pound basis are WAY more successful than we should be. While the ranking of the Republic has been pretty low in the noughties, since the mid 80's, while our domestic league died, our national team prospered, and we react with disappointment if we do not qualify for the international tournie every 2 years. Of the 13 tournaments that have (or will) tae place between 1988-2012 inclusive, Ireland has qualified for 5, 2 Euro's and 3 World cups.

Scotland have qualified for 4, two World Cups and 2 Euros, which represents an underperformance in repect of their own history as, it should be noted, that in 1990, Scotland had qualified for their 5 consecutive world cup and that was the Republic of Ireland first.

Northern Ireland, since 88 have not qualified for any major tournament, but did qualify for both the 82 and 86 finals.

Where the achievemnt of the rep. of Ireland is significant, is that this success has all occured without a fully professional league of its own.

Moving to other sports, outside of the well documented exploits on the golf course, Boxing is almost always Ireland's (north & sout whether competing for GB & NI or the Republic of Ireland) is usually our best hope of Olympic medals, indeed, Katie Taylor is a multi World & European Champion and will hopefully take Gold in the London Games, as she is currently one of the favourites to do so.

Beyond boxing, Irish athletes do compete in niche sports, we have had in recent times, athletes competing on the world stage at Skeleton, Aerobatics, Equestrian (and we're pretty succesful there, one stripped gold aside) and according to JK Rowling, quidditch

Seriously though, my most surreal sporting moment and a good barometer of who things have really changed in this country over the past 20 years occured in 2007.

St Patrick's Day to be precise, aka my 24th Birthday. Due to my dad's interest in all sports (literally all bar synchronised swimming & baseball) and having gone to a school that played the sport, i am a cricket fan. It should be noted that St Patrick's Day is a HUGE day in the GAA calender and Schools' rugby too in Ireland.

But also happening that day was a little Cricket World Cup Game between Ireland and Pakistan. And fark loads of drinking being undertaken by a great proportion of the adult population.

Anyway, I leave my house in the belief that the unlikely is possible as Ireland had bowled out Pakistan fairly cheaply and the taget was around 238 or something, in 50 Over cricket this is not insurmountable, but a job still needed to be done. However, as I was meeting friends and it being Paddy's Day i figured the only way i'd keep up to speed on the match would be via txts from home, so it was rather surprising when I arrived into Henry Grattan's Pub on Baggott Street (since closed as a venue now, alas) to a pub full of cheering people. With the cricket on. and when O'Brien hit the winning runs the place erupted.

I cannot over state the culteral significance here in that there were a few of us who'd gone to a school that played cricket, but that was a half dozen out of 200-300 people and the venue itself was not a particular spot for the minority community more likely to have affinity with cricket etc.

Things had changed. But some things remian the same, such as the joy of beating England at anything that I had while at work during the 2011 edition of the CWC. Awesome.

Rmable over in that regard but that day really did hammer home how things have changed, thankfully.

As for the Old Firm, what all so called die hard Celtic fans should be doing right now, is fundraising for Rangers. in a commited fashion, because with 24 months of Rangers being relagated/just becoming demonstrably uncompetetive, Celtic's funcing will also start to run short. The rivaly is based on competition, nothing less will suffice. Case in point, Rangers have been docked 10 points. They are STILL 2nd in the league. Celtic need Rangers & vice versa.

Theres nothing wrong with an athlete celebrating a PB but when your very best athlete's PB isn't good enough to qualify from the heat stages of a major tournament then as a country that is not something to celebrate.

roddersm wrote:Theres nothing wrong with an athlete celebrating a PB but when your very best athlete's PB isn't good enough to qualify from the heat stages of a major tournament then as a country that is not something to celebrate.

Yes but I don't think we do celebrate it,however it shouldn't be dismissed either.Those athletes work hard with little help and no real glamour events bar the World Championships and Olympics so to say that a personal best is failure is wrong too.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I've always laughed amongst family and friends that the differences between Irish athletes in the International arena is that whilst others celebrate medals - bronze, silver or gold - Irish athletes celebrate PBs (Personal Bests)...even though the PBs mean they haven't reached the final heat...and the heat they did reach they came last in!

And yet, you have that athletics guy with the frizzy head on RTE rejoicing at the PBs and giving out to those who bemoan the PB times as failure. Hate to break it to him but that's what they are - failure, on tax payers money.

That's a bit harsh as athletics is an individual sport it's extremely hard to reach the top it's not like for example being the 20th best in the world at something is a failure.As long as the athlete has improved then it means they've achieved something.

It's not about the athlete, it's about putting a vest on your back that says Ireland and representing your country and getting constant yearly funding that can stretch to 30,000 a year to constantly enter competition and constantly be far out of the running. PBs shouldn't be celebrated. Better systems and fewer athletes coached better is how you bridge the gap. Failure is failure, and that's what Rodders alludes to.

But it's another argument anyway and for a different thread. But the idea that our love of sport makes us actually any good at some sports is certainly a topic that can be argued both ways.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

roddersm wrote:Fair point notch. You are right we have a good level of grass roots participation across a wide variety of sports.

But yes at elite level we're probably not quite as successful as we should be for various reasons. For one a lot of the facilities are rubbish.

The main reason I think Ireland aren't as successful at athletics,soccer,rugby etc.. as we should be is because a massive percentage of our best athletes spend their lives playing G.A.A.

Out of interest, how similar are Gaelic Football and Aussie Rules and do teams from each ever player each other?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

roddersm wrote:Theres nothing wrong with an athlete celebrating a PB but when your very best athlete's PB isn't good enough to qualify from the heat stages of a major tournament then as a country that is not something to celebrate.

Yes but I don't think we do celebrate it,however it shouldn't be dismissed either.Those athletes work hard with little help and no real glamour events bar the World Championships and Olympics so to say that a personal best is failure is wrong too.

No I'm not dismissing it, we should support all our athletes. I agree a lot with debators very good post above.

I am just disagreeing with the suggestion that we have a great sporting culture. We have an ok one but at too many sports, not just mainstream ones we are way off the pace and too many athletes have to go abroad to get the coaching and facilities they need to be competitive.

Apart from Golf, Rugby and perhaps horse racing we are not world class at any sport,even these are debatable. Things are improving but we are not in a position to naval gaze or back slap.

Up north the facilities are Tom Kite in most sports and funding and support for athletes is very low.

roddersm wrote:
No I'm not dismissing it, we should support all our athletes. I agree a lot with debators very good post above.

I am just disagreeing with the suggestion that we have a great sporting culture. We have an ok one but at too many sports, not just mainstream ones we are way off the pace and too many athletes have to go abroad to get the coaching and facilities they need to be competitive.

Apart from Golf, Rugby and perhaps horse racing we are not world class at any sport,even these are debatable. Things are improving but we are not in a position to naval gaze or back slap.

Up north the facilities are Tom Kite in most sports and funding and support for athletes is very low.

Yeah I don't disagree with anything here,I don't think we have a great sporting culture either but as you say it's okay and the fact that our most popular and participated in organisation is not involved in international sport means we lose a lot of promising athletes.

Facilities and funding are pretty rubbish down here too and it's not gonna change anytime soon.

I think a lot of sense has been talked on here about the Irish sporting culture but from my point of view I find that a lot of my passion came from accessebility. I love my sports and follow football, rugby and GAA and a this mostly came from what I saw at a young age. Its hard to get behind a local football team as there is very little coverage in NI and few numbers falling so fathers arent taking their kids to games.
I grew up watching the Ireland rugby team on TV thanks to my dad and uncles who were fans then in 1999 BBC NI started showing Ulsters European games and got into that, it probably helps that they went on too win it but when they lost coverage my passion waned but from Setanta and now BBC started showing the Celtic/Magners/Pro 12 its been rediscovered.
The same with GAA, the coverage of the championship sees a passion there but go to a league game and there are sparse crowds and players missing. It doesnt help that games are played on cold wet Friday and Saturday nights but if people dont know a games on how do they know?

Associations and the media have a huge part to play as do governments. For a long time Ulster rugby was poorly run now its got a setup that could equal most top clubs including a strong academy, new redeveloped stadium coming and top players.
The FAI are slowly becoming more organised and the IFA may be turning a corner with a possible new academy being built.
The GAA has it problems but is evolving constantly but what all of them have come to see is the importance of sport to the economy. Successful entertaing sports teams draws money from TV, sponsorships and people coming to watch who spend money around towns and cities. In the most part the Scottish government has stood back from sport and wanted the bodies to look after their own rather than engaging with them to build themselves up.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

roddersm wrote:Fair point notch. You are right we have a good level of grass roots participation across a wide variety of sports.

But yes at elite level we're probably not quite as successful as we should be for various reasons. For one a lot of the facilities are rubbish.

The main reason I think Ireland aren't as successful at athletics,soccer,rugby etc.. as we should be is because a massive percentage of our best athletes spend their lives playing G.A.A.

Out of interest, how similar are Gaelic Football and Aussie Rules and do teams from each ever player each other?

Jersey there are similarities and quite a few players from GAA have went to play in Austalia since it is a professional game you should check out Martin Clarke whos been a top player in both codes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9H-YZYRPas

Theres an annual compromise rules series between an Irish and Aussie team

Aussie Rules was codified first but it’s believed it was based on a version of Gaelic football, which like most field sports has changed a good bit over the last century.

The game is roughly the same with the main exceptions being

- In Aussie rules they use an over ball, it’s round in the GAA
- In Aussie rules they have 4 goal posts with no “goal”, GAA goals are like a rugby post with a soccer net on them
- Tackling is more physical in Aussie rules, more like rugby but not quite as hard
- In Aussie rules you get a free kick (mark) for catching any ball that’s travelled more than 10m in the air, Gaelic football is more free flowing
- The pitch in Aussie rules is oval

We play a compromise rules game each year, if the Aussies don’t try to murder us we usually beat the socks off them.

Man, I remembered Equestrian and forgot Horse racing........for shame. But, ye, our jockey's are there or there abouts, our owners have success and our trainers are certainly acknowledged as knowing their excriment.

I agree that we can get better and that celebrating mediocre performances is not what we should be doing, but I also think that the success of the Provinces in Rugby & the golfers ince 2007 have totally clouded our judgement. In golf in particular, there are upwards of 10000 gold pros out there and this island (see im being careful but also claiming the victories ) have won 6 of the last 20 Majors. FFS that is off the charts in terms of regional success, and the talent pool is underlined by the fact this isnt one Tiger Woods or Roger Federer taking all the cake, 4 men, 6 Majors.

Rugby, Elite Euro competition, 4 out of 6 winners and the top two seeds both Irish for this season and Ulster in the QFs too. Disproprtionate (and very welcome success) and as the cliched but very very accurate saying goes; success breeds success.

I'd add to that though that time & funding are mum & dad.

Lets take Australia and their attitude to Sport and use Tennis as an example.

Lleyton Hewitt was the last of the Aussies from the 90s-00s period of sustained success. You had Cash, followed by Rafter follwed by Phillopousus (apologies for that spelling) followed by Hewitt and during that period you also had the famous 'Woodies', Mark Woodforde and Todd Woodbridge, cleanign up in the Doubles.

Since then the first mens player with what looks like the talent to go on to the top 10 and be competetive is Tomic.

Does that mean that Australian tennis has failed for the last 7-8 years? Or been unsuccessful ?

You see for me there is a huge difference between lack of success and failure. Failure, and this is diffficult to type and the reasons are many as to why, was Munster not making the HC 1/4 Finals last year and then being beaten at home in the Amlin. Not being successful is not winning it in 2009 and 2010. because we were not good enough.

So back to Aussie tennis. The game has changed. Federer started the revolution by having what most commentators & analysts would agree are a Top 5 'shot' in respect of every shot a player can have. This level of consistancy and natural talent is freakish. Married to the disipline & love and respect for the game and you have a 16 time Major winner. Then followed Nadal, the hardest working player and arguably the greatest Clay Courter ever, and now you have Novak, the ludicrisly talented and 'finally focused on delivering all the time on my talent' Serb. And then Andy Murray, who, in any other era, would probably be a multi slam winner. Not a great of the game, but when he is aggressive has the game to hurt people and his defence is only bettered by Nadal.

So, why has it taken a generation for Australia to produce a guy that could merely potentially compete? Because, nothing is guarenteed in sport except that year on year, it gets harder. What worked last year, needs to be better this year. The funding in Aussie tennis has been consistant. The facilities are world class, the talent pool hasnt/cant have gotten smaller during this time, but the requirments for success, the one area that you cannot control, have gotten higher.

So when we lambast our 7th place finish in an Olympic semi final over 200m, remember that the €30,000 as mentioned above, is about 30% of what that Athlete has spent on him or herself to get to that race. And the time, injury frustration and setbacks and of course, the whole shoite they have to give up that we all take for granted such as drinking of a weekend and all that jazz. Some above paid lip service the idea 'imnot deminishing their acheivements just dont want mediocrity to be celebrated'. Right, fair enough.

Only to be in the top 16 guys or girls in global sprinting isn't mediocre. Put it this way, if, unlikely as it seems given we are farcking about online moaning about sport, that one amongst us were in the top 200 Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers, Brick Layers, Plumbers or Physiothearapists in the world (and please note the scaling up of the numbers here) we wouldn't describe them as mediocre, or begrudge them the grant/tax break/educational stipend that the State ponied up to help them become what they are; Elite.

Great post again debators .

This thread has got me thinking about sports I participated in as a kid. Don't know how comparable it is with Scottish experience.

Northside Dub.
1. Soccer. Everyday after school in the street. All day Saturday and Sunday, everyday in the summer. Not unusual to have a final score of 158-155.
2. GAA. Every Friday at school. Like watching now but just wasn't for me.
3. Judo. 5 years. Loved this. Two clubs within easy reach.
4. Athlethics. Concentrated in the summer around community games but also involved in cross country at school.
5. Karate. short lived. Too many rules.
6. Tae Kwondo. See Karate
7. Rugby. At 14 I found rugy and fell in love. Recently retired after 20 odd years but played every week.

Even in the depression of the 80's when there was NO money, (As in "Da, I need 20p for a copy for school"... " Sorry son. There's NO money") there was always sport. Lots of volunteers in the community, lifts, loan of a pair of boots, hand me down gear. I would say that 90% of the kids in my school had a similar story.

marty2086 wrote:
Theres an annual compromise rules series between an Irish and Aussie team

And Ireland's record is fairly impressive considering the aussies are pros and the Irish amateur. Think the series (usually 3 games) is 5-5.

Aussies are big and physical, the Irish small and much more skilful. Don't like the game that they play much - its exciting though because there is usually a massive brawl or two.

Outdoor sports is massive in Scotland (mountaineering, climbing, skiing etc) so its not correct to say they don't have a sporting culture. Their sporting culture suits the terrain that they live in - unfortunately it isn't a competitive sport.

You know most Scots don't live in the Highlands Sin? The majority of the population live in terrain and climate almost identical to Ireland, bar a few degrees colder in Winter.

And indeed we have shinty to Ireland's hurling, but again it's not a big sport, altho played mostly in the Highlands

Sin é wrote:Outdoor sports is massive in Scotland (mountaineering, climbing, skiing etc) so its not correct to say they don't have a sporting culture. Their sporting culture suits the terrain that they live in - unfortunately it isn't a competitive sport.

Their terrain is similar to ours Sin, although obviously we don't get the skiing conditions. Outdoor sports are much more commercial in Scotland and another area were they have one up on us. I think that is changing though with competition climbing catching on in Ireland and better facilities being developed.

The Scots I know just like soccer. And nearly all support Celtic or Rangers. And some are actually hostile to other sports. One Scot who drank in a pub I worked in years ago was a Rangers supporter. When I mentioned rugby to him, he angrily said that he wouldn't watch an "upper class game".

I think Irish people will play a wide range of sports. At school I did soccer, gaelic football, hurling, basketball and swimming. At PE we also played things like tennis, rounders and hockey. There was a rugby team in my secondary school but I didn't play it. Golf is quite classless. And the equestrian sports are hugely popular. But if there's anything that proves Irish people will play just about anything it's this. Ireland were World Amateur Elephant Polo Champions in 2005!!!

In terms of watching, the Irish will happily jump on any bandwagon, and large numbers of supporters will appear from thin air when any team is doing well. I think the rugby provinces should always be wary that large numbers of supporters could disappear just as quickly if the teams aren't competitive.

The interesting thing about Irish soccer is that the FAI is completely incompetent and broke. There isn't even a fully professional league, despite the fact that it's a very popular sport. Everybody follows English soccer. And any Irish player with ambitions to be a pro has no choice but to go over to England and sink or swim in one of the best leagues in Europe, rather than play at home. Maybe there's a lesson there for Scottish rugby, if they can't afford a good domestic setup?

Forgot aout swimming. Lots of really disgusting public pools around when I was kid. I boxed for a while too. Very, very poorly

Is it more important for a nation to have a few World beating sportsmen or have a huge number a people involved in sport at any level?

I think the latter but it nice to have some of the former too.

We certainly have a lot of sporting avenues open to our kids here. Just in our house we have Rugby, Athletics, Basketball, Gymnastics all being competed in on school/local teams with a few regional and national medallists in there. we then have Hockey, Horse Riding, Netball and Ballet also being enjoyed on a more recreational level.

And that is just this week!

Notch wrote:You know most Scots don't live in the Highlands Sin? The majority of the population live in terrain and climate almost identical to Ireland, bar a few degrees colder in Winter.

Fort William (the main centre of climbing in Scotland) is only about 1-2 hours away from Glasgow & Edinburgh.

And there are climbing crags all over the place (like Ireland).

Even though Ireland has similar type terrain to Scotland, the grass roots pass time in ROI would be GAA. I think the counties in NI have a much bigger outdoor sports thing going on in comparison. I do a bit of mountaineering myself, and I'm always amazed at the no of kids up north involved in the Duke of Edinburgh awards/scouting stuff. They swarm the hills at the weekends. Down south, you'd rarely come across anything like the same no of kids out and about. Probably because they are more involved in gaa.

MrsP wrote:Is it more important for a nation to have a few World beating sportsmen or have a huge number a people involved in sport at any level?
I think the latter but it nice to have some of the former too.

We certainly have a lot of sporting avenues open to our kids here. Just in our house we have Rugby, Athletics, Basketball, Gymnastics all being competed in on school/local teams with a few regional and national medallists in there. we then have Hockey, Horse Riding, Netball and Ballet also being enjoyed on a more recreational level.

And that is just this week!

It's surely more likely you'll get the former if you have the latter?

Absolutely Asbo.

But I think the latter is an end in itself.

I'm not sure about this, but I've always had the impression that motor sport is huge in Northern Ireland. Not so much in the Republic.

I think the two go hand in had Mrs P. If you have more participants then more likely they will be more world beaters come through ... if the right structures are in place.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I'm not sure about this, but I've always had the impression that motor sport is huge in Northern Ireland. Not so much in the Republic.

Feckless Rava lives in the biking capital of the world . The NW is a massive event and there is a rich history of great motorcyclists like the late great legend Joey Dunlop .

Once again I agree Rodders but I think widespread participation should be encouraged regardless of the chances of producing world beaters.

The country will be healthier for a more active population. Producing World Champions is a very happy by-product.

I know Sin- i did spend a decade of my life living there after all. I'm just saying; if you think as many Scottish people are involved in climbing and mountain biking and hiking and the rest of it as soccer or GAA over here, you're dreaming.