Scots and Irish sports culture

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Interesting piece in the Herald today from His Kevness and one that is worth repeating in full here (if the mods have no objections):

The Rangers story tells us we need to rethink our sporting culture

All major media outlets have indulged in the corporate equivalent of suicide watch in the past few weeks as one half of the Old Firm has torn itself apart and that, in itself, is an indication of the importance of Rangers and Celtic to Scottish culture.

However, in real terms that is where interest in Scottish sport begins and ends for a disturbing number of our citizens and, as understandable as it has been for the two clubs to exploit that to the maximum, it has had a suffocating effect on all other sporting activity.

Long before Rangers' troubles were of sufficient significance to register with the London-based networks and newspapers, we had only to look at the balance of coverage of sport within the Scottish media.

Sports bulletins on Scotland Today or Reporting Scotland have invariably started with a Celtic or Rangers story for decades and the same applies to the back pages of, in particular, Scottish tabloid newspapers.

That is not an indictment of those outlets since their output merely reflects the supposed Scottish obsession with sport which goes no further than people aligning themselves passionately, to the point of fanaticism, with one or other of these clubs.

What all of this also means, though, is that any individual or, more particularly, business looking to gain benefit from sponsoring sport in Scotland looks first and foremost at ways of investing in the Old Firm.

Those clubs themselves are businesses, a long way removed from their origins when set up purely as sports clubs, so have been perfectly entitled to take the view that this was all right for them and that the broader considerations of what was good for Scottish sport was not their problem.

However, Rangers' collapse and the impact that looks like having on the rest of the Scottish Premier League is forcing people to think again.

This week there was a documentary on BBC Scotland asking what needed to be done to improve Scotland's footballing fortunes, followed by a debate on the subject.

My own view is that it missed the point, though, because they talked about football in isolation.

What has to be done if Scottish football is to improve is for Scottish sport to improve. That requires a cultural change.

Does Scottish football need Rangers? That is debatable. Does Scottish sport need to revolve around Celtic and Rangers? I would suggest quite the opposite.

Examples abound all over the world. Mention New Zealand and sport and, inevitably, we all think of the All Blacks, but anyone who has visited that country, significantly smaller than Scotland in population, will know that sports such as sailing, cricket and netball are granted considerable media coverage and support.

If that's a bit too far away for us to grasp, then how about an example from closer to home. Many of its residents may head over to Scotland on ferries every weekend to support the Old Firm, not to mention Liverpool, Manchester United and other clubs in the Barclays Premier League, but Ireland's sporting culture is vastly superior to that of Scotland.

Looking at what I consider to be the three major team sports: the Irish football team have qualified for the European Championships and was a Thierry Henry palm away from reaching the World Cup in South Africa; their national rugby team have won a grand slam and three triple crowns in the past decade, while Ulster, Munster and Leinster have all been European champions; and their cricketers are now well ahead of Scotland in the rankings, with many players on the books of English counties.

Scotland may lay claim to being the Home of Golf, but Ireland is the home of Rory McIlroy, the current world No.1 while three others – Padraig Harrington, Graham McDowell and Darren Clarke – have all won majors since Paul Lawrie won his Open Championship.

Perhaps because no big corporate entities have predominated, Irish sporting culture is sufficiently broad that it has been able to adapt to opportunities as they arise. Twenty years ago, anyone suggesting that their provincial rugby teams would garner attention and support that was anywhere close to that of Gaelic Athletic Association sports would have been laughed at. Yet when rugby turned professional, there was no shortage of youngsters possessed of the necessary skills.

Some in the Gaelic games community doubtless detest rugby's rise and those of us whose main interest is in the wider world of sport have long observed a similar isolationist attitude within a significant section of the Scottish football community. They should note that Irish rugby's rise has not been to the detriment of other sports, but has been part of a golden age of sport in their country.

Instead of seeking to preserve Rangers' status or that of Scottish football, the real challenge is encouraging our youngsters to participate, rather than merely support. In the long term that will be good for Scottish sport as a whole, good for Scottish football and maybe even good for the Old Firm.

On the basis that most Scots would cite the weather as the reason why we are not a nation of toned, bronze gods who jogged to school flicking a rugby ball around on each hand, the comparison with Ireland is very interesting.

I'd be interested to know (especially from the usual Irish talent on the boards):

1. What informs the Irish sporting culture? Is it as simple as well defined regional rivalry?

2. What were posters' experience of sports at school? Did sports like Gaelic football and hurling predominate? I realise that it depends on the school.

3. Why the gap in both aptitude and ambition between Ireland and Scotland? Are infrastructure and opportunities the determining factor? Or something else?

Please for the love of feck no WUMMing on this thread.

You know that the e-wedgie and deletion will be coming. So don't do it.

Many thanks.

Sin I do a bit of climbing myself and the majority of the climbers in Ireland are based in dublin.

There is a very suitable terrain for these sports in Ireland but we don't publicise it enough. Dublin recently opened Irelands 1st commercial indoor climbing wall and a second is due in a few months.

In indoor competitions some of the kids in Belfast are making podiums in Britain and a lad from Belfast came top 5 in Europe I think in his age group.

Surfing is also big here. I think there was an Irish girl at UU coleraine recently who was a world class surfer or windsurfer, can't remember her name.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You know most Scots don't live in the Highlands Sin? The majority of the population live in terrain and climate almost identical to Ireland, bar a few degrees colder in Winter.

Fort William (the main centre of climbing in Scotland) is only about 1-2 hours away from Glasgow & Edinburgh.

And there are climbing crags all over the place (like Ireland).

Even though Ireland has similar type terrain to Scotland, the grass roots pass time in ROI would be GAA. I think the counties in NI have a much bigger outdoor sports thing going on in comparison. I do a bit of mountaineering myself, and I'm always amazed at the no of kids up north involved in the Duke of Edinburgh awards/scouting stuff. They swarm the hills at the weekends. Down south, you'd rarely come across anything like the same no of kids out and about. Probably because they are more involved in gaa.

Sin, they need to get themselves a 90 year old Duke.

Rava wrote: Sin, they need to get themselves a 90 year old Duke.

Aye, cos he'd go down well in the Republic!

roddersm wrote:Great post again debators .

Agreed - many thanks for your detailed contributions, Debators.

I don't suppose that I'd get away with describing you as a 'master debator'?

George, you wouldn't be the first. But the more direct out there just tend to go for 'not this James Blunt again...'

Cheers guys btw, we have a good group on here and I include the more controvertial ones too, for chat and banter about rugby and sport as a whole. It aint perfect anywhere but at least it gets us thinking!

And I cannot wait, i think I have at least 4 games of rugby to watch this weekend, which is nice. And probably a Super XV game or two as well. Happy days!

rodders, is this the young woman you were thinking of?

http://www.easkeybritton.com/

I've been following the thread though being English hadn't posted. As an outsider I've had the impression that participation in sport in general in Scotland and Ireland has only recently started to expand. Having climbed a lot in England and Scotland in my younger days I have only long ago experience but winter weekends in the Coe and around Laggan always left me a bit bemused. There were always a more non Scots than Scots though I'm sure this wouldn't be the same now. I have always thought that the Scots had a more parochial attitude to sport and am glad when GB teams have representation from the whole of the UK. One thing I would be interested in knowing is in England at least there's a fair amount of encouragement for people to get involved in sports and generally quite a lot of facilities and clubs for everything from wendyball to squash, canoeing to athletics, martial arts to table tennis. Is there anything like the same availability in Ireland and Scotland?

Yes that might well be her. Can't open the link here.

I think there is growing availability for these sorts of sports aitchw. Generally I'd say facilites and availability in a lot of Ireland are quite lagging behind the UK.. but remember in Ireland you have maybe 2 major cities (Dublin, Belfast) and 2 or 3 smaller ones (Cork, Limerick, Galway, Derry) which are mostly spread out and in between is is mainly Rural.

In a lot of England major towns and cities are close together and the transport infrastructure is miles better so chances are you can find these sorts of sports facilites within travelling distance.

There are great landscapes for watersports (obviously), you can take up Canoeing/kayaking here fairly cheaply and some of the best surfing around is fairly near here with plenty of opportinites for surfing lessons etc.

That said most hills, lakes trails or whatever will be very quiet on a sunny day whereas in the Lakes, Peak, Snowdonia etc. will be jammed!

Martial arts is popular, particularly mma and there is a history of Judo and boxing champions here.

In general these sports are less commercial than in England and the facilities are inferior but certainly there are opportunites to participate in most sports here if people seek them out and facilities are improving. I think Belfast and Dublin have fairly good facilities for most sports but can't speak for my friends in the south West.

I would add that Ireland badly undersells itself as a tourist destination for outdoor adventure sport and activities etc. since the subject has come up!

Tourism Ireland, or whatever they're called need to get their act together!

roddersm wrote:but remember in Ireland you have maybe 2 major cities (Dublin, Belfast) and 2 or 3 smaller ones (Cork, Limerick, Galway, Derry) which are mostly spread out and in between is is mainly Rural.

*puts feet up and tucks in to popcorn in preparation for the fireworks

Rava wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:You know most Scots don't live in the Highlands Sin? The majority of the population live in terrain and climate almost identical to Ireland, bar a few degrees colder in Winter.

Fort William (the main centre of climbing in Scotland) is only about 1-2 hours away from Glasgow & Edinburgh.

And there are climbing crags all over the place (like Ireland).

Even though Ireland has similar type terrain to Scotland, the grass roots pass time in ROI would be GAA. I think the counties in NI have a much bigger outdoor sports thing going on in comparison. I do a bit of mountaineering myself, and I'm always amazed at the no of kids up north involved in the Duke of Edinburgh awards/scouting stuff. They swarm the hills at the weekends. Down south, you'd rarely come across anything like the same no of kids out and about. Probably because they are more involved in gaa.

Sin, they need to get themselves a 90 year old Duke.

We like the Duke down here (as well as his mrs) - we were all hoping he would say something mad when he was over here last, but the mrs was keeping a tight reign on him. Wouldn't let him have any guinness.

Anyway, he does come over here to meet up with our equivalent of the Duke of Edin. awards - ours are called "Gaisce, the President's Awards".

Gaisce = achievement (in Irish).

roddersm wrote:Sin I do a bit of climbing myself and the majority of the climbers in Ireland are based in dublin.

There is a very suitable terrain for these sports in Ireland but we don't publicise it enough. Dublin recently opened Irelands 1st commercial indoor climbing wall and a second is due in a few months.

In indoor competitions some of the kids in Belfast are making podiums in Britain and a lad from Belfast came top 5 in Europe I think in his age group.

Surfing is also big here. I think there was an Irish girl at UU coleraine recently who was a world class surfer or windsurfer, can't remember her name.

Considering the proximity of Wicklow National Park to Dublin I'd expect a lot more outdoor activity, not to mention Dalkey Quarry & Glendalough for climbing. You have to travel a bit if you live in Belfast.

The problem with hillwalking in Ireland is that there are very few tracks and with the way the weather can change, you better be able to navigate in poor weather conditions. (the Mournes are easy peasy though as you can just stick to the wall and you'll be ok).

Yes Sin but remember the national mountain centre is in Newcastle.

Its a shame that Tiglin closed down. I was in Glendalough recently and it was jammed... mostly by american tourists, but it was jammed....

I don't think there is much more going on up North than down there. Dublin and Belfast (and the east generally) are were most things happen in Ireland and the Mournes is reasonably accessible for both.

Perhaps as you say there the trails and easy navigation make it popular.

Theres loads of countryside and hills in Donegal and Fermanagh for example but its always very quiet.

I don't think its as much of a North/South thing as an East/West one.

When the Duke was visiting Trinity College Dublin he was talking to students. When he heard a posh D4 girl talking he remarked, "You don't sound like the natives".

debaters1 wrote: And I cannot wait, i think I have at least 4 games of rugby to watch this weekend, which is nice. And probably a Super XV game or two as well. Happy days!

Debator you need to look more closely - I have 9 lined up live or recorded.

3 6N games on BBC/RTE
3 Super 15 games on Sky
1 French Top 14 on ESPN
the U20 game between England and Ireland on Sky
A Low Value Cup game on Sky tonight (Calling this a meaningful rugby match is a bit of a stretch but even so 8.5 games isn't bad !)

I'm away this weekend and will miss them all! Plus my freeview box is broke and won't record! Will have to catch up on IPlayer on Sunday!! Disaster!

Geoff, thanks for the heads up!

The four i was talking aboout were the Internationals and I had hoped that the Rabo match between Munster & Aironi would be on but it seems it isn't....boo-urns.

As for the Intel regarding the SXV matches, thank you very much! Am drinking tonight so even if i wanted to, i shant be watching the LV game!

Rodders, feel bad for you man, technology is wonderful until it decides to be an ar$e and then....well, I reckon its all just biding its time until SkyNet becomes self aware.

aitchw wrote:rodders, is this the young woman you were thinking of?

http://www.easkeybritton.com/

Yup thats the one.

George,
I can't help thinking this whole very boring Rnagers thing will bring the whole useless, dull house of cards that is Scottish Football down - here's hoping ! What the bloody hell will the Scottish Press and the BBC do then ?? Perhaps our great game can fill the gap - imagine 20000 -30000 turning out every other weekend to see the Warriors - I can but dream !

roddersm wrote:I would add that Ireland badly undersells itself as a tourist destination for outdoor adventure sport and activities etc. since the subject has come up!

Tourism Ireland, or whatever they're called need to get their act together!

I love hill walking, rodders, but it is terribly hard work in Ireland. By that I mean, in England it is easy to get the map, and follow the path (or not if you go to somewhere like Dartmoor). An awful lot of walking in Ireland seems to rely on prescribed paths (Wicklow Way etc) or boreens (Béara Way). Yet there are a lot of places where it would be nice to meander through wilderness, but they are difficult to access. Where I live here, just south of Bristol, I can get myself and the dog out into open countryside very easily with few if any restrictions, other than the normal courtesies (leave gates as you find them, keep dog under close control near livestock, etc). Loads of wild country on Béara but difficult to access it - farmers put signs on gates saying No Access. I have spoken to the tourist office in Glengarriff about it and the y have assured me they are trying to negotiate access, but so far with limited success.

I will admit, I haven't cracked the hill walking scene in Ireland, so yes maybe Bord Fáilte or whatever they are called today need to do something about it.

PS, apparently when the Duke was over in Ireland last year, someone asked if he had enjoyed the gardens in Farleigh - "I might have if the fe****** had let us out into them"

In all fairness lads there is some sh.te being written here. Rodders have you ever been south of armagh? There is a very large hillwalking/mountaineering community in Munster that tend to go to the more interesting and more challenging cork/kerry mountains. Rather than the tourist trails of wicklow (far too many Dubs).

In terms of sport in general and participation the GAA is in the forefront in terms of organisation, volunteers and participation. Soccer is mostly played as a social element with a bunch of lads, rugby is still a minority sport. The other sports like athletics, basketball, golf , hockey boxing etc have their small but steady participants. Overall its the GAA leading the way in terms of participation (both male and female) and organisation. We do ok and punch above our weight in certain areas but that's about it.