Regional rugby discontent: Shocking extent revealed with new research.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/swansea-ospreys/2012/03/08/regional-rugby-discontent-shocking-extent-revealed-with-new-research-91466-30484675/

THE apparent extent of discontent with regional rugby among fans in parts of Wales is revealed today in new research.

The data – in the form of a rare survey of more than 1,000 rugby fans – shows a large majority of supporters in the South Wales Valleys (82.7%) ‘do not identify with’ any of Wales’ four regional rugby sides and “feel alienated” from the professional tier.

But even among those who identify themselves as supporters of existing regions, just half (51%) said they are satisfied with regional rugby.

Of those who said they were dissatisfied, the quality of the rugby played, the ‘dilution’ of traditional club loyalties, the disconnection from communities and the ‘soul-less’ nature of modern stadia are cited as prime causes of their discontent.

The research, carried out on behalf of Pontypridd MP Owen Smith, also found:

83% of Valleys-based fans said they would go and watch a professional rugby side based there;
Only 17% of regional rugby fans quizzed believe the Welsh game is more ‘enjoyable’ since the advent of the regional system; and,
Almost half of existing regional rugby followers surveyed believe a development region should represent the South Wales Valleys, though 36% opposed the idea.

However, the WRU said the research “does not address the fundamental issue of how any new regional entity would be funded and operated” and that it was still “awaiting delivery of a business plan for [Mr Smith’s] proposals which he informed the union he would be presenting almost one year ago”.

Mr Smith said the current set-up was “both unloved and unsustainable” and called on the WRU to look at overhauling the face of the game in Wales.

Welcoming WRU chief executive Roger Lewis’ statement on the weekend that “we are at a fundamental crossroads in the history of Welsh rugby” and that the game’s leaders had to “come up with something that’s far more radical and is far more sustainable that will take our game forward”, Mr Smith said: “In considering change, they must ask themselves why the current structures are failing – why the business model on which regional rugby was based has been shown to be bust.

“Anecdotally, the answers seem obvious, if varied. Firstly, the system was never truly ‘regional’ and the new clubs failed, therefore, to properly embrace the fans and the loyalty of their ‘feeder’ clubs.

“Secondly, and consequently, the revenue streams anticipated from success, increased attendances and attendant merchandising have not been realised.

“Thirdly, the ‘market’ in players that has been created by the professionalization of the game in France, England, Ireland and the Tri-Nation countries has led to spiralling wage bills – the biggest element of clubs’ costs.

“Fourth, the business planning for both the Union and the regions has appeared to be weak – assuming success, undermined by property development in a time of economic uncertainty and underpinned by personal, unsustainable subvention by benefactors whose patience is now running thin.

“However, it’s not enough to guess at why things have gone wrong, and then to propose ‘radical’ change from on high. That’s precisely the mistake the Union made when it came up with this structure a decade ago, and the reason that the hopelessly optimistic ‘if we build it, they will come’ attitude took a hold in the first place.

“The Union must ask the fans what they want – not just impose solutions from above. That way they might construct a framework for the game that can be sustainable, properly rooted in the rugby communities of Wales, and bought into by the fans whose emotional and financial support is the key to its future.”

Mr Smith said the Valleys had been “largely forgotten” when the regional system was introduced in 2003, and said the research – carried out by Arad(corr) – showed what followers of the game felt.

“The fans’ views dispel any notion that the answer to our problems is merely to boil down the number of professional players to still fewer numbers and to exert greater control over their wage demands through contracting them directly to the Union,” he said.

another non story.

and seriously, it's only a 1,000 people questioned, that's not exactly a large pool of people to draw serious conclusion from.

And the fact that people don't like the new stadiums? That was already well known.

I'm with the WRU on this, if the people in the valleys are so dissatisfied, where is their business plan for the development of a region there?

Am honestly getting bored by all the rubbish articles the Welsh press are churning out now

I agree to an extent Dreamer, but they are still interesting to read.

Although I wish this MP would stop causing so much trouble, the WRU have already said that until the Valleys come up with a way to fund a professional team then it's a non started yet they still think Wales best players will play in the Rhondda for 50 bucks and a free hot dog at the end of the game.

"The research, carried out on behalf of Pontypridd MP Owen Smith"

I think that this says a lot about the research...

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:"The research, carried out on behalf of Pontypridd MP Owen Smith"

I think that this says a lot about the research...

Also it says that the survey was of over 1,000 rugby fans, but it doesn't actually say whether or not they even follow a prem club. You could interview well over 1,000 'rugby fans' in most places in Wales right now get the same results, as right now there are a number of 'rugby fans' that most likely couldn't tell you more than 75% (if that) of the current Welsh squad. After all its cool to be a rugby fan at the moment, because we aren't total cack.

I think Valley fans need to let it go. There will never be another region in the valleys. If there was a 5th region at any point you can bet it would end up in north wales.

The talk at the minute is that they are thinking about turning one of the 4 into a development team. I suspect if push comes to shove I reckon the Dragons will probably be nominated which is annoying. We have the best atmosphere at home of all the regions.

Dreamer: 1000 is not a lot for a survey if you are talking about a population of 3M but when you consider the total crowds attending regional games each weekend it is a significant number providing the survey is spread across all the rugby supporter spectrum.

The outcome from the survey is hardly a surprise, we all know regional rugby does not exist where this MP is supporting and the rest of Wales outside of 4 WRU funded super clubs on the S Wales coast. The current system is not working something has to be done to broaden the game and make it sustainable. The WRU should get their fingers out to address the problem at regional level across Wales, if we can double the crowds and gain another region the revenue will take the pressure off the WRU i.e., giving more money to prop up failing regions (clubs) that the majority of potential supporters refuse to support. To quantify the last statement the 4 current regions get a combined crowd (even with free tickets) of 25K on a good day including away supporters, the crowd for a Wales match is 75K sell out hence doubling crowds across Wales for regional rugby must be realistic.

Come on WRU sort out a plan and not pass the buck to an MP to come up with a plan which is not his job.

Glamorganalun - the problem is that there is a bit of 'networking' going on every time there is a match at the MS, and there is also the social aspect of it. I was 'lucky' enough once to get free tickets to Wales V Ireland at work, and I had to sit amongst a heap of suits (actually in suits) who didn't know who more than 70% of the side on teh feild were. So I honestly doubt that they will ever turn up to regional matches as they are to common an occurance to turn them into a 'day-out' or a once/twice a year 'net-working'

I think it is a good survey, or at least a good start.

The article clearly points out the 'major' issues for 1000 fans, just not a few on these boards or personal opinion. You ever try to get 1000 people to do something?
What I like the most about it is that it has identified issues that can be resolved and picked up on the 'major' issues of the game.
1) ‘do not identify with’ any of Wales’ four regional rugby sides
2)“feel alienated” from the professional tier.
3)‘dilution’ of traditional club loyalties
4) disconnection from communities
5)‘soul-less’ nature of modern stadia

There's five good starting points with stats to back up whatever action they take next.

Also the stats do make for interesting reading. To say that the regions are not working is an almost knee jerk reaction. Firstly Wales are on the edge of another grandslam and the for most of the regions, looking at the second graph, enjoyed good support two season ago. Actually between 2006-10 the regions could be described as heading in the right direction or even being healthy... I know shock horror.

I don't really feel qualified to comment on Welsh regional rugby, but I can give my professional opinion on the survey

1000 people (depending on how they were selected) is actually a decent sample. Most pre-general election opinion polls in the New Zealand for example would sample 500-1000 people - to cover a voting population of over 2 million.

So assuming they've gotten a proper polling company to select people at random from all over Wales the results are probably representative. Of course, if they've just had a few pollsters stand outside Tesco in Ponty and Bridgend then you could still have a selection bias.

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:"The research, carried out on behalf of Pontypridd MP Owen Smith"

I think that this says a lot about the research...

Exactly, as soon as I saw that I stopped reading. You cannot have someone in his position, who's trying to win votes in a community that feels disenfranchise from rugby, do research into rugby. That adds huge investigator bias. The research therefore cannot be taken seriously as it wouldn't stand up to rigorous research standards. It would be like BP leading the research on the effects of oil spillages in the sea.

Kiwireddevil wrote:I don't really feel qualified to comment on Welsh regional rugby, but I can give my professional opinion on the survey

1000 people (depending on how they were selected) is actually a decent sample. Most pre-general election opinion polls in the New Zealand for example would sample 500-1000 people - to cover a voting population of over 2 million.

So assuming they've gotten a proper polling company to select people at random from all over Wales the results are probably representative. Of course, if they've just had a few pollsters stand outside Tesco in Ponty and Bridgend then you could still have a selection bias.

Only the South Wales valleys by the look of it.........

"The data – in the form of a rare survey of more than 1,000 rugby fans – shows a large majority of supporters in the South Wales Valleys (82.7%) ‘do not identify with’ any of Wales’ four regional rugby sides and “feel alienated” from the professional tier."

Well done to the WRU for pointing out the bleeding obvious to a valley that just doesn't seem to get it.

It's 1000 people from one area though. not exactly representative of the whole country. As far as I understand it, this area isn't even very far away from Cardiff. It's seems the best way forward would be to consolidate this area within the Cardiff region.

They are already a part of the Blues region Notch!

They just don't like the Blues. They want it to be Ponty, and nothing else. Or at least that's how it always seems to come across.

They also used to have the Warriors there, but a lot of them didn't support them, which is partly why they went under.

Just smacks of cutting ones nose off to spite ones face. Or whatever that blasted saying is

Well, tough sh!t for them eh?

Whatever configuration Welsh Rugby may take in the future, there aren't going to be more than five or six top professional teams and those teams are going to be based in large population centres. Because it's the only way it's going to be economically sustainable.

It's very much a case of welcome to the real world for these people. The real issue for Welsh Rugby is how do you market a team in Cardiff to draw in as many supporters as possible from outside the city? That's what they should be focusing on. Not listening to calls for something that isn't possible.

Notch, most people have been saying exactly that for the last 5 years!

If we're ever going to have another pro side in Wales, it'll be in the North, and no where else.

rugbydreamer wrote:Notch, most people have been saying exactly that for the last 5 years!

If we're ever going to have another pro side in Wales, it'll be in the North, and no where else.

You are now officially on my Christmas card list:

what, you mean to say I wasn't officially on it before?!

Another trash article from the Western Mail - and another cheap vote getting ploy from Owens.

A 1,000 person survey could be a very good base depending on what your researching, but I bet you'd get a very different outlook if you held the surveys outside one of the regions grounds after a game. If the survey is meant to represent rugby fans in the whole of Wales, or at least in the whole of South Wales then you'd need to increase the survey group to avoid such drastic biases as those 2 above.

I'd also question a survey based on a person already running a campaign in the RCT area looking for votes from fans wanting a new region in the area - I imagine either some of the questions were quite leading or the survey's were conducted in towns such as Pontypridd and the surrounding area or maybe Bridgend. Though I do believe that there are fans out there who feel disenfranchised (a very large group maybe) and I can understand why (indeed I lived in Ponty), but this survey is in no way representative.

Also what is needed is a business plan and backers that shows a sustainable region is possible in the valleys (and a location where all/most fans would support it). Not some more propaganda telling us what we already know - Ponty fans are p!ssed off and want a region

rugbydreamer wrote:They are already a part of the Blues region Notch!

They just don't like the Blues. They want it to be Ponty, and nothing else. Or at least that's how it always seems to come across.

They also used to have the Warriors there, but a lot of them didn't support them, which is partly why they went under.

Just smacks of cutting ones nose off to spite ones face. Or whatever that blasted saying is

Put a bit more meat on the bones for Notch's sake at least.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Ponty fans are p!ssed off and want a region

They've been p!ssed off since 2003 and I can't say I blame them either.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Ponty fans are p!ssed off and want a region

They've been p!ssed off since 2003 and I can't say I blame them either.

I can't either but repeating the same fact since 2003 is not the basis for setting up a new sustainable region

Out of 1000 people surveyed in the South Wales Valleys 827 said that the Valleys should have their own region.

Unfortunately when they had their own region, 827 was pretty much the number of people who were prepared to pay to watch the Warriors on a regular basis.

Yes, there are a lot of things wrong with Regional Rugby in Wales but this survey is typical of the trash that the Eastern Fail produces on a daily basis.

Would rebranding Cardiff Blues with as a real region with a new name and colours help? Give it a Welsh Language name based on some Welsh legend or something. Give them a colour that's neither Cardiff RFC or Ponty.

Would that satisfy Ponty fans? Would it lose existing Cardiff fans? It's the only feasible solution I can think of. And I have no idea if it would do any good at all.

for god sake, look I was born in Merthyr and I live in Cardiff now, but I have always supported the Blues as my main region but always support the other regions when they are in action. I know allot of valley's people who go to the Ospreys and Blues, I go to the Blues frequently and used to when living in Merthyr, the main problem is travel to the Blues games, you would have to get a train to Radyr, then to the City stadium from there, then more than likely a train from Ninian to the centre and get a train from there back up to the valleys. Thats why allot don't go to games, because all that hassle for one games people don't see the point.

If they were playing at the arms park, people would go there due to the easier travel. If travel was improved Blues would get a few more supporters in at CCS, but even more at the arms park. The valley's don't need a region, they got one, the Blues (You don't have to call them Cardiff) North Wales should have one as they are the disenfranchised if there have ever been one. Give them a region and murge the Blues and Dragons, and switch games between Rodney and CAP and CCS for bigger games. More fans, Dragons don't have to lose all their best players, easier travel and the Blues can have the clear out they wanted with the kiwi oldies leaving, with young Blues and Dragons players coming through. You could also have the Wales back row playing for one side for god sake.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:They are already a part of the Blues region Notch!

They just don't like the Blues. They want it to be Ponty, and nothing else. Or at least that's how it always seems to come across.

They also used to have the Warriors there, but a lot of them didn't support them, which is partly why they went under.

Just smacks of cutting ones nose off to spite ones face. Or whatever that blasted saying is

Put a bit more meat on the bones for Notch's sake at least.

I truly can't be bothered to go over the whole thing Dave, the whole thing bores me to tears now. The above simplifies it (perhaps to much) but it does give a general gist of the situation.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Would rebranding Cardiff Blues with as a real region with a new name and colours help? Give it a Welsh Language name based on some Welsh legend or something. Give them a colour that's neither Cardiff RFC or Ponty.

Would that satisfy Ponty fans? Would it lose existing Cardiff fans? It's the only feasible solution I can think of. And I have no idea if it would do any good at all.

You could rebrand Cardiff Blues any way you like, but it would still be owned and run by Cardiff RFC. Cardiff Blues are and always have been the first team of Cardiff Rugby Football Club.
Remember Leinster Lions?
All Cardiff did in 2003 was to add the meaningless word "Blues" to the name of the first team just to appease the WRU.
Then in 2004, after the WRU decided that the Celtic Warriors were surplus to requirements, Ponty all of a sudden became part of a Cardiff Blues imaginary "region". And that is what we have now. Did supporters have a say in any of this? Not a chance. It's the Welsh way.

Would a club based somewhere in the valleys actaully get enough people through the gate to be sustainable ? Is there a stadium suitable in place ? If the valley fans won't go Cardiff will they go to Ponty in sufficient numbers ?

No. Read Notch, Smirnoff and RD's comments because they are spot on. And don't pay attention to a Jimmy Moz, as he is a campaigner I believe. Seriously, it is the bleeding obvious for everyone apart from these voters.

rugbydreamer wrote:

I truly can't be bothered to go over the whole thing Dave, the whole thing bores me to tears now. The above simplifies it (perhaps to much) but it does give a general gist of the situation.

Okey dokes and no worries, but the Cardiff/Ponty regional rubbish is very real unfortunately.

Morgannwg wrote:No. Read Notch, Smirnoff and RD's comments because they are spot on. And don't pay attention to a Jimmy Moz, as he is a campaigner I believe. Seriously, it is the bleeding obvious for everyone apart from these voters.

Why not pay attention to Jimmy Moz?

For reasons mentioned, Dave. This debate has been going on for weeks so I would think it was obvious. It was simply put earlier, Ponty fans are just p!ssed off and want a Region. Jimmy is one of those fans and a fan that ignores the fact a valley Region would be impossible to sustain. As it previously was in 2003.

I actually asked him a question on his latest thread, about how he would feel about his Region playing games at Sardis Road and having a fair representation of Pontypridd club players. I'm still waiting for him to get back to me mind...

Morgannwg wrote:For reasons mentioned, Dave. This debate has been going on for weeks so I would think it was obvious. It was simply put earlier, Ponty fans are just p!ssed off and want a Region. Jimmy is one of those fans and a fan that ignores the fact a valley Region would be impossible to sustain. As it previously was in 2003.

I actually asked him a question on his latest thread, about how he would feel about his Region playing games at Sardis Road and having a fair representation of Pontypridd club players. I'm still waiting for him to get back to me mind...

We don't have regions. Cardiff Blues are the first team of Cardiff RFC.

Well yes, they are the Region and they aren't. Don't be pedantic.

I don't see this as a Ponty issue, the whole of regional rugby is a sham and this is the time to review how Welsh regional rugby can be improved for the majority not the minority we have now. There must be a region in North Wales that is a given for me but the WRU must decide how many and where the other regions should cover. Do the WRU want the regions to be run by individuals like P Thomas and Cuddy etc running their personal clubs ignoring feeder clubs like Ponty and Neath respectively for their own reasons, ideally there should be a means of holding back funds from these regions (clubs) for lack of interest in so called feeder clubs.

Morgannwg wrote:Well yes, they are the Region and they aren't. Don't be pedantic.

They are and they aren't. Can't argue with that.

glamorganalun wrote:I don't see this as a Ponty issue, the whole of regional rugby is a sham and this is the time to review how Welsh regional rugby can be improved for the majority not the minority we have now. There must be a region in North Wales that is a given for me but the WRU must decide how many and where the other regions should cover. Do the WRU want the regions to be run by individuals like P Thomas and Cuddy etc running their personal clubs ignoring feeder clubs like Ponty and Neath respectively for their own reasons, ideally there should be a means of holding back funds from these regions (clubs) for lack of interest in so called feeder clubs.

Ah!

glamorganalun wrote:I don't see this as a Ponty issue, the whole of regional rugby is a sham and this is the time to review how Welsh regional rugby can be improved for the majority not the minority we have now. There must be a region in North Wales that is a given for me but the WRU must decide how many and where the other regions should cover. Do the WRU want the regions to be run by individuals like P Thomas and Cuddy etc running their personal clubs ignoring feeder clubs like Ponty and Neath respectively for their own reasons, ideally there should be a means of holding back funds from these regions (clubs) for lack of interest in so called feeder clubs.

????

The research, carried out on behalf of Pontypridd MP Owen Smith, also found:

Coincidence? I think not. We're they asked if they watched the matches on the telly? Viewing figures suggest that they do. Not that uninterested then are they?

What of the Ospreys win the HC, would their principles count for much then or would they be on the closest bandwagon?

Forgive my ignorance, but geographically what comprises the South Wales Valleys?

From the Gwendraeth Valley in the West (North of Llanelli) to the Usk Valley on the English border. If you're driving West on the M4 it's the area of higher ground on your right.

On this map you will see a lot of little counties in a bunch. The top half of that area basically.

Right, gotcha - would Welsh consider that the heartland of Welsh rugby? It doesn't seem that far to the coastal regional teams tho?

The unrepresented area would seem to be the middle and north of the country, altho I realise that adjusting for population probably puts a different colour on that?

Mid Wales isn't very densely populated at all As, but a third of the population lives in the North, so it is ridiculous that they've been ignored for so long.

The Valleys have been a hot bed for rugby in the past, and probably could be again. But they did have their own region, and didn't support it, and along with the backer Leighton Samuel (? I think it was him) making a right mess of it, it folded. Honestly can't see that they don't have anyone but themselves to blame.

Bit harsh maybe but if you're in the valleys you have a choice of supporting the Dragons or the Blues depending which their local club side falls under. I would say to them get behind those regions and make it work. The better supported the regions are the mroe they can incorporate the clubs in that region and actually make them proper regions.

It was happening at the O's and it is happening at the Scarlets now. Like with everything though it takes time, there is no easy fix here.

rugbydreamer wrote:Mid Wales isn't very densely populated at all As, but a third of the population lives in the North, so it is ridiculous that they've been ignored for so long.

The Valleys have been a hot bed for rugby in the past, and probably could be again. But they did have their own region, and didn't support it, and along with the backer Leighton Samuel (? I think it was him) making a right mess of it, it folded. Honestly can't see that they don't have anyone but themselves to blame.

Bit harsh maybe but if you're in the valleys you have a choice of supporting the Dragons or the Blues depending which their local club side falls under. I would say to them get behind those regions and make it work. The better supported the regions are the mroe they can incorporate the clubs in that region and actually make them proper regions.

It was happening at the O's and it is happening at the Scarlets now. Like with everything though it takes time, there is no easy fix here.

No, I see that, and whatever is decided, there's bound to be some unhappy fans. Didn't realise that there's as many folk as that in north Wales, in which case it would make sense to have a team up that way. But could a 5th region be sustained in this financial climate? Would it not be better for one of the existing regions to move north? From a complete outsider's perspective, and simply based on my (admittedly v limited geography), given that Scarlets and Ospreys are so close, would moving one of those two be an option? Or should it be one of Dragons and Cardiff, and realistically there's only going to be one loser there cos nobody would take a team from the capital?

North Wales used to be part of the Scarlets' region As and it didn't work out too well. We did play a few games up there, and a lot of our academy players and young talent coming through are from the North (such as North, Rhodri Jones, Rob McCusker etc) so we still have very close ties up there and do our best to bring the existing talent through.

The WRU have taken control of it now and have turned it into a developmental region: RGC1404. I think they are due to join the Welsh Premiership either next season or the season after.

There is not going to be a quick fix 5th region developed, it's going to be something that's going to take a lot of time, but at least that way it can be done properly

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Right, gotcha - would Welsh consider that the heartland of Welsh rugby? It doesn't seem that far to the coastal regional teams tho?

Distance!


Distance is not the issue!

So what is then, Glas?