Regional rugby discontent: Shocking extent revealed with new research.

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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/swansea-ospreys/2012/03/08/regional-rugby-discontent-shocking-extent-revealed-with-new-research-91466-30484675/

THE apparent extent of discontent with regional rugby among fans in parts of Wales is revealed today in new research.

The data – in the form of a rare survey of more than 1,000 rugby fans – shows a large majority of supporters in the South Wales Valleys (82.7%) ‘do not identify with’ any of Wales’ four regional rugby sides and “feel alienated” from the professional tier.

But even among those who identify themselves as supporters of existing regions, just half (51%) said they are satisfied with regional rugby.

Of those who said they were dissatisfied, the quality of the rugby played, the ‘dilution’ of traditional club loyalties, the disconnection from communities and the ‘soul-less’ nature of modern stadia are cited as prime causes of their discontent.

The research, carried out on behalf of Pontypridd MP Owen Smith, also found:

83% of Valleys-based fans said they would go and watch a professional rugby side based there;
Only 17% of regional rugby fans quizzed believe the Welsh game is more ‘enjoyable’ since the advent of the regional system; and,
Almost half of existing regional rugby followers surveyed believe a development region should represent the South Wales Valleys, though 36% opposed the idea.

However, the WRU said the research “does not address the fundamental issue of how any new regional entity would be funded and operated” and that it was still “awaiting delivery of a business plan for [Mr Smith’s] proposals which he informed the union he would be presenting almost one year ago”.

Mr Smith said the current set-up was “both unloved and unsustainable” and called on the WRU to look at overhauling the face of the game in Wales.

Welcoming WRU chief executive Roger Lewis’ statement on the weekend that “we are at a fundamental crossroads in the history of Welsh rugby” and that the game’s leaders had to “come up with something that’s far more radical and is far more sustainable that will take our game forward”, Mr Smith said: “In considering change, they must ask themselves why the current structures are failing – why the business model on which regional rugby was based has been shown to be bust.

“Anecdotally, the answers seem obvious, if varied. Firstly, the system was never truly ‘regional’ and the new clubs failed, therefore, to properly embrace the fans and the loyalty of their ‘feeder’ clubs.

“Secondly, and consequently, the revenue streams anticipated from success, increased attendances and attendant merchandising have not been realised.

“Thirdly, the ‘market’ in players that has been created by the professionalization of the game in France, England, Ireland and the Tri-Nation countries has led to spiralling wage bills – the biggest element of clubs’ costs.

“Fourth, the business planning for both the Union and the regions has appeared to be weak – assuming success, undermined by property development in a time of economic uncertainty and underpinned by personal, unsustainable subvention by benefactors whose patience is now running thin.

“However, it’s not enough to guess at why things have gone wrong, and then to propose ‘radical’ change from on high. That’s precisely the mistake the Union made when it came up with this structure a decade ago, and the reason that the hopelessly optimistic ‘if we build it, they will come’ attitude took a hold in the first place.

“The Union must ask the fans what they want – not just impose solutions from above. That way they might construct a framework for the game that can be sustainable, properly rooted in the rugby communities of Wales, and bought into by the fans whose emotional and financial support is the key to its future.”

Mr Smith said the Valleys had been “largely forgotten” when the regional system was introduced in 2003, and said the research – carried out by Arad(corr) – showed what followers of the game felt.

“The fans’ views dispel any notion that the answer to our problems is merely to boil down the number of professional players to still fewer numbers and to exert greater control over their wage demands through contracting them directly to the Union,” he said.

Hang on you're Scottish. Ask the Rangers fans to go and watch Celtic if they go bust.

Tribalism man!

Yes we can do it without fighting, standing in the same stands unsegregated etc. but that doesn't mean its any less of an issue.

It's not really the same is it, it's not like supporters of one of the older clubs are asked to go and support a different old club, they created new regions with affiliations, right?

It's not really the same is it, it's not like supporters of one of the older clubs are asked to go and support a different old club, they created new regions with affiliations, right?

Er, no. They merged some old affiliations and allowed two of the old clubs to carry on. Then as soon as those clubs hit a financial brick wall they sacrificed one new entity to keep the others afloat (yet the same fans who are now moaning were not exactly turning out in their droves to support the Warriors financially). Then the Ospreys found with a shiny new football stadium and a half decent team they could try and forge a new identity. For a while it worked, but they didn't win anything. Then the Swans got into the Premiership as the stars all buggered off to France. They are now on a downward spiral as they hardly ever get enough fans in to create any sort of atmosphere. The Blues tried to copy them. Again the football team uses the relationship to prosper whilst the rugby team hits a downward spiral. The Dragons have stuck to their roots because they have to but are stuck in a rut in Rugby terms and financially as they tend to be the ones in the Amlin all the time. The Scarlets sold the family silver in a property development deal just as the recession hit. They have been saved by the WRU (twice) and now by their local authority and the Swans reserves games. They however are making strides in terms of attendances and on the field. However will they go bust before it all clicks?

Right you are, I won't pretend to understand it all, too much emotion involved

Even if the Valleys got the development region they are asking for, I don't believe that that will keep fans happy, it might quieten it for a few years but then the demands will be for equal funding for a poorly supported side.

I saw poorly supported as what fan whats their local team to be a development team and never had any hope of winning anything, th ebest you could hope for is an old Derby win, but this may even be diluted as the other team is unlikey to send it's best XV. Dragons get good support now, but if they were a development team would they be getting the same number of supporters in 2/3 years time? I very much doubt it.

Putting a development team in the Valleys will not solve any issues, it'll only waste funds on something that is doomed to fail.

While Cardiff RFC are the owner of Cardiff Blues they will never be any but Cardiff RFC rebranded. The example above would be fair if Rangers folded and Celtic changed to Celtic hoops and entered the English Prem would the ex-rangers fans be expected to support the Celtic hoops? as the Glasgow team in the Prem?

My solution is force Cardiff RFC to sell a % stake (49%) of the franchase to the other clubs in the so called region. This would create a representive region, the identity would have to be changed, and the stake holders would create a board for the running of the region and the running of rugby in the region. The board prioty would be the regional team and developing rugby in the region, not as it currently is concentrated on Cardiff blues and Cardiff RFC.

Sounds like a sensible solution, Kingshu - would both sides go for it?

I don't know I'm an outsider to, think its a case of you can please some of the people some of the time etc etc.

I doubt it, redoing the franshise would prob lose a lot of the Cardiff RFC supportrs, and wouldn't attracht enough new supporters to cover for this, so prob a none starter.

My solution would be put the board in place and rebrand the team with a new name (not linked to any club (like The Red Kite's [The Red Kite is a national symbol of Welsh wildlife]) and play in red (or under a different name and play in White to symbolise a new start). Games split the way Munster do, big games in cardiff Arms park or CSS or MS and smaller games in Saris road.

Would this work, prob not, just end up with a team nobody feels attached to. But in the long run it may work as fans warm toward the team, the way Ospreys have)

The Cardiff fans that say the Vally fans should get over it and support the Blues for the good of Welsh rugby, would have to support the Red Kites, Valley fans that feel disenfranchised would have a franchise and region that isn't based on Cardiff RFC.

I feel that while it would struggle for support for the first few years, it would have a better chance, in 10 years, of appealing to a wider audance and getting higher attendances than the Cardiff blues would in 10 years from now.

Kingshu - I like your idea, however I think the same issues with the side would still exist even if they shared the games around. I think it would end up with people moaning and complaining that they don't get to see proper sides playing at Sardis, and that the WHATEVERS never seem to feild their stars for their home games at Sardis as the opposition are weak etc etc.

That said I really do like your idea of trying to spread the ownership of the region around the region. It is a good idea, and folk do seem to care more if they are included like that. They feel like they do have a voice, and a real right to air their greivances etc.

ScarletSpiderman while I like the idea of sharing ownership of a franchase to create a board that then focuses on Rugby in the region rather than concentrating on one club in the region (and helping the others on a secondary basis).

However the WRU have had the oppertunity to try this approach since the start of the regions, with the Dragons.

The Dragons are 50% owned by the WRU therefore it would be easy for them to sell this stake to a consortium of clubs in the region. And create a board for the running of rugby in the region, not leaving it to Newport RFC to run rubgy in the region (which I can understand fans of other clubs in the area being annoyed about)

What strikes me is that a consortium of the other clubs in Gwent have never come forward to try and buy the WRU 50% share. This must mean the clubs (if not the supporters) are very happy to have Newport running the rugby in the region and to be feeder clubs this way.

You may point that they can't afford the 50% share, but I'd say if they weren't happy 10 years is more than a long enough time for them to save and put a buiness plan in place between them all, to at least attempt to purchase this stake. The fact that they haven't even tried speaks volumes for Newports running of the Dragons and the region.

If Cardiff and LLanalli put 50% of each franchase up for sale would we see the same thing?

Kingshu wrote:If Cardiff and LLanalli put 50% of each franchase up for sale would we see the same thing?

I have a bit of ownership in the Scarlets, as does anyone who bought a season ticket this season. They did a deal where renewing your season ticket got you 100 shares, and buying a season ticket from scratch got you 50 shares. I appreciate that that is not a huge amount, but it is a move in that sort of direction. I was going to mention it on the last post, but htought it sounded like a 'my team are doing it right' sort of brag.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Kingshu wrote:If Cardiff and LLanalli put 50% of each franchase up for sale would we see the same thing?

I have a bit of ownership in the Scarlets, as does anyone who bought a season ticket this season. They did a deal where renewing your season ticket got you 100 shares, and buying a season ticket from scratch got you 50 shares. I appreciate that that is not a huge amount, but it is a move in that sort of direction. I was going to mention it on the last post, but htought it sounded like a 'my team are doing it right' sort of brag.

Spidey, what are the implications of that, just out of interest? How many 'shares' are in existence? Do they all have the same voting right? Can they bebought/sold?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Kingshu wrote:If Cardiff and LLanalli put 50% of each franchase up for sale would we see the same thing?

I have a bit of ownership in the Scarlets, as does anyone who bought a season ticket this season. They did a deal where renewing your season ticket got you 100 shares, and buying a season ticket from scratch got you 50 shares. I appreciate that that is not a huge amount, but it is a move in that sort of direction. I was going to mention it on the last post, but htought it sounded like a 'my team are doing it right' sort of brag.

Spidey, what are the implications of that, just out of interest? How many 'shares' are in existence? Do they all have the same voting right? Can they bebought/sold?

Asbo - gods honest truth, I ain't got a clue. I believe they can be moved around, I think you have to register with the region that you wish to off load them and htey find someone who wants them. But Like I said I aint't got a clue. They gave them to fans, knowing full well that fans would hang on to them and not want to shift them on.

Sound, thanks

Kingshu wrote:I don't know I'm an outsider to, think its a case of you can please some of the people some of the time etc etc.

I doubt it, redoing the franshise would prob lose a lot of the Cardiff RFC supportrs, and wouldn't attracht enough new supporters to cover for this, so prob a none starter.

My solution would be put the board in place and rebrand the team with a new name (not linked to any club (like The Red Kite's [The Red Kite is a national symbol of Welsh wildlife]) and play in red (or under a different name and play in White to symbolise a new start). Games split the way Munster do, big games in cardiff Arms park or CSS or MS and smaller games in Saris road.

Would this work, prob not, just end up with a team nobody feels attached to. But in the long run it may work as fans warm toward the team, the way Ospreys have)

The Cardiff fans that say the Vally fans should get over it and support the Blues for the good of Welsh rugby, would have to support the Red Kites, Valley fans that feel disenfranchised would have a franchise and region that isn't based on Cardiff RFC.

I feel that while it would struggle for support for the first few years, it would have a better chance, in 10 years, of appealing to a wider audance and getting higher attendances than the Cardiff blues would in 10 years from now.

Thats exacty what they must do. Take the Munster example again because Munster has 2 main bases, Limerick and Cork. Most of the games are in Limerick but Cork has a much bigger population. People from Munster all think of it as their team and support Munster. People just go to Limrick to the matches. In my part of Cork it takes about 7 hours to leave home, go to Limerick and watch Munster and return home. So people will put in a big effort of the team represents them.

The Welsh made a balls of things first day by not creating real regions. Wales should have been roughly divided into 4 regions and then create teams to represent those regions. Some regions would be more populated than others but the fans would come. As an outsider it seems the clubs had too much of a say in things. Therefore there was never real regions created but just clubs pretending to be regions.

Cardiff rfc changed to Cardiff Blues. Pontyprid supporters then were expected to row in behind Cardiff when Cardiff is clearly not a regional tea. It would be like Munster being called Limerick Greens and expecting the rest of Munster to think this was their team. The attendances would have automatically halved and success would have been more unlikely. If Cardiff did rebrand themselves and call themselves The Kites and play in red or white as well as a few matches in Ponty etc then the Ponty crowd would see it as their region and get behind it. Its a no brainer! You feel however the clubs are stopping this from happening. In this case the WRU should give Cardiff Blues and ultimatum that they either become a proper region or the WRU will create a proper region in their place.

profitius wrote:The Welsh made a balls of things first day by not creating real regions. Wales should have been roughly divided into 4 regions and then create teams to represent those regions. Some regions would be more populated than others but the fans would come. As an outsider it seems the clubs had too much of a say in things. Therefore there was never real regions created but just clubs pretending to be regions.

I don't accept that at all... we had a bankrupt WRU and 9 clubs, most with benefactors who held all the cards and more importantly ALL the player contracts. The WRU ruined themselves financially to keep the Clubs solvent and when the bank would not lend them any more they had to tell the clubs, and the clubs had to resolve the problem themselves, 9 clubs became 5 regions, then 4.

It took a lot of self sacrifice and cunning, for rival clubs like Swansea and Neath, and Ebbw Vale and Newport to merge, they have been rivals for 120+ years! It's like getting Manchester United and Manchester city to merge, or Everton and Liverpool. It should of been impossible. The fact that everyone was prepared to see the bigger picture was brilliant and something that simply doesn't happen in Welsh rugby.

Of course in the longer term the bigger fish, gradually take control and squeeze the little fish out. Newport got rid of Ebbw Vale, Swansea were bankrupt, but Cuddy settled the Ospreys in Swansea in a new stadium. In life change is often small and gradual. Neath and Swansea form the Neath Swansea Ospreys, then eventually both teams decide to drop their club names so their just the Ospreys.

The first and last mandate of the regions was to help bridge the gap between club rugby and the national side and enable the Welsh team to compete again, a world cup semi final and 2 grand slams, have proven the regions are doing their job.

Thats what the WRU wanted originally profitus the problem was that they couldn't afford to set them up themselves and needed the buy in of the benefactors - and of course all of the benefactors had a vested interest so pushed their clubs interests. This then led to compromises and eventually to the mess we were left with in 2003.

But the people calling for truly representative regions to be put in place now (which I'd love in an ideal world) are also forgetting that the WRU would still need the buy in from the benefactors (and I can't ever see there being enough commercial demand to make sponsors a viable replacement for benefactors) - and as the ones that are left, Cuddy, Peter Thomas at al, have ploughed huge amounts of money into the current regions - I can't see them willing to give all that up for a new region which maybe based somewhere else.

I think Alyn said it better than I did

Great piece from Glas. Nailed it!
The regional game is without doubt, not creating the buzz it should do. Even when the Ospreys were at their peak, I used to scratch my head when they would field a team as strong as the Welsh team and may only get 6,000 for a league game. Yet the following week, the Millenium would be sold out and the same players were on the field. It says to me that the league isn't working. It doesn't get the casual fan enthused. The product on offer isn't good enough. Kick off times are appalling. Teams are often missing their stars. I mean I can barely watch an away welsh derby as they're often on a Friday night. You'd have to be a pretty die-hard to travel from Abertillery to watch the Dragons play Glasgow at 5pm on a Sunday and that's for a frickin home game!!!
I miss the rivalries massively. I very rarely get the same buzz as I used to. It's just a case of going through the motions.
I'm prepared to get shot down, but what about summer rugby. It's worked in Super league. Get the families in. Light nights, good weather and maybe a proper structure to our schedule. let's have competitions played in blocks. You begin to lose interest when you are playing in 3 different competitions in as many weeks!!!

Smirnoffpriest wrote:But the people calling for truly representative regions to be put in place now (which I'd love in an ideal world) are also forgetting that the WRU would still need the buy in from the benefactors (and I can't ever see there being enough commercial demand to make sponsors a viable replacement for benefactors) - and as the ones that are left, Cuddy, Peter Thomas at al, have ploughed huge amounts of money into the current regions - I can't see them willing to give all that up for a new region which maybe based somewhere else.

I'd like to see that as well, I'd like East, West and North Wales, and have us down to 3 regions. with all centrally contacted players.

Parc Y Scarlets for West Wales, which would eliminate the Liberty stadium football problem that is coming, East Wales at the Millenium stadium, and North Wales at Park Erias.

To a certain extent I'm both relieved and disappointed that I hadn't penned this article.

A 1000 sample would be considered pretty much exhaustive in a Gallup, Opinion Research etc. for national voting intentions amongst an electorate of 30m or more.

Mind you it depends what question was put...

Portnoy wrote:To a certain extent I'm both relieved and disappointed that I hadn't this article.

A 1000 sample would be considered pretty much exhaustive in a Gallup, Opinion Research etc. for national voting intentions amongst an electorate of 30m or more.

Mind you it depends what question was put...

Well I'm assuming they went to Pontypridd rugby club and asked the first 1000 people they could find.

Kingshu wrote:

The Cardiff fans that say the Vally fans should get over it and support the Blues

Never heard a Cardiff fan say that and who or what is a valleys fan?
Also, if you have a look on the first page of this thread there is a Merthyr (Valleys) boy saying he has always supported Cardiff. It has always been the case that Cardiff has had support from far and wide including those originating from valley's towns such as Merthyr, Aberdare, Treherbert etc.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

The Cardiff fans that say the Vally fans should get over it and support the Blues

Never heard a Cardiff fan say that and who or what is a valleys fan?
Also, if you have a look on the first page of this thread there is a Merthyr (Valleys) boy saying he has always supported Cardiff. It has always been the case that Cardiff has had support from far and wide including those originating from valley's towns such as Merthyr, Aberdare, Treherbert etc.

Kingshu, it happens to be every Wales fan outside Cardiff telling Ponty fans just that.

Kingshu wrote:

My solution is force Cardiff RFC to sell a % stake (49%) of the franchase to the other clubs in the so called region. This would create a representive region, the identity would have to be changed, and the stake holders would create a board for the running of the region and the running of rugby in the region. The board prioty would be the regional team and developing rugby in the region, not as it currently is concentrated on Cardiff blues and Cardiff RFC.

Force Cardiff RFC to sell? How could that happen?
They are an independent business. The WRU can't force them to do anything.
And who are these other clubs? Pontypridd and........?
Most don't have a pot to you know what in and most are village clubs anyway.

profitius wrote:
The Welsh made a balls of things first day by not creating real regions.

The balls up was pretending we had regions in the first place. We don't and never have.
In the case of Cardiff Blues, their "region" in the first year when the Warriors were going was Cardiff.
Check out the "regional" map in 2003.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Welsh-Rugby-Regions-2003.jpg

AlynDavies wrote:

I'd like to see that as well, I'd like East, West and North Wales, and have us down to 3 regions. with all centrally contacted players.

Parc Y Scarlets for West Wales, which would eliminate the Liberty stadium football problem that is coming, East Wales at the Millenium stadium, and North Wales at Park Erias.

You reckon that would work? I don't think so even if it could be afforded and in fact I believe it would be the final nail in the coffin.

What Pontypridd supporters have shown in all this is that they are passionate about their CLUB. The pretend "regions" should take note.

Create a 'Region' called the Pontypridd Whites then is it Dave? How about a region called Morgannwg? I'm pretty sure that the old kingdom covered Glamorgan, Cardiff and the neighbouring valleys.

manofgwent wrote:
I miss the rivalries massively. I very rarely get the same buzz as I used to. It's just a case of going through the motions.

Be Newport again and get a backer.
I can remember when Percy Montgomery was playing for you.
When Newport came to the big smoke, the Arms Park was rammed and it was only a year or two before regionalism.
Nearly 17,000 turned up if i'm not mistaken. Bloody cold too.
There again we were just Cardiff and you were just Newport.

Morgannwg wrote:Create a 'Region' called the Pontypridd Whites then is it Dave? How about a region called Morgannwg? I'm pretty sure that the old kingdom covered Glamorgan, Cardiff and the neighbouring valleys.

Call it what you like, but will it work?

Well one things for certain Cardiff Dave the club set up won't work again no matter how much nostalgia it's viewed with.

Not right now. There's no money, is there? It's an idea for the future. Rotate games between the rugby hotbed, Cardiff and Sardis. Perhaps LV cup games at Cricket County. It's bound to be better than what we got. Gwent already has a Region. That would leave Deubarth in west wales, which would require a merger for Scarlets and Ospreys .

I've spelt that wrong btw... But the kingdom was established in lower wallachia with the help of the Normans after 1066. There was a principality that predates this.

Could just call it Dyfed Morgannwg, though not sure how the Ospreys would like that.

But there won't be any money for that scale rebranding for awhile and by the time it is available the regions will be much further down the line and have a much greater identity and loyalty making it a lot more difficult and expensive to scrap it all and start again.

Also as Dave says how are you going to force the owners who own the regions/players contracts to play ball a second time?

Unless the current regions become sustainable then the WRU will have no option but to move one of them up North sooner rather than later.

I would kill to have a region up here but I would rather have a fifth region than see one of the existing regions moved due to lack of interest down there.
We are facing huge problems and have done so for a while so a North Wales region would not be a financial risk when changes are being forced upon us.

In short if your friends family associates or even those members of this site who are too stubborn to support a region want to keep them then go out and support them otherwise you are likely to lose at least one of them.

Cymroglan wrote:
I would kill to have a region up here

Hey, have as many as you like, but they don't come cheap though.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well one things for certain Cardiff Dave the club set up won't work again no matter how much nostalgia it's viewed with.

Eh? If you want nostalgia checkout Llanelli Scarlets.
Here you go. How about a Phil Bennett jersey..............modelled by George (not Asda)..........
http://shop.scarlets.co.uk/Heritage-range-Bennett-jersey-mens.html

As far as i'm concerned, Llanelli should be shouting Llanelli from the roof tops and not be hiding the fact they are Llanelli.

Cymroglan wrote:Unless the current regions become sustainable then the WRU will have no option but to move one of them up North sooner rather than later.

Cripes.

What so a region that represents the whole of 'Dyfed' (more or less) and has fans from Fishguard to Llandeilo and is made up of Llanelli, Quins and Llandeilo should suddenly call it's self a Premiership club instead to make it easier on you as your still stuck in the past?

Unlike the Blues the Scarlets have reached out to fans outside of Llanelli, and as a result of that and some other initatives (one of which is blooding talent from around the region - and North Wales ) has resulted in our attendances increasing year on year for the past few years.
So not sure why we should throw all that away and call ourselves something else.

Especially as the Blues model of trying to cling to being Cardiff RFC and not trying to attract anyone from outside the region isn't working particularly well as they are struggling for fans and crying out for more fans to attend their games.

Hard thing to suck up is regionalism when tradition and leagues and clubs and stuff get inconveniently in the way.

Ask Scottish fans outside of their franchise supporters.

In fact just look at home attendances as a measure of public satisfaction/expectation/passion.

I'd bet that cumulative club attendances for a Welsh league would be at least double that of the current regions.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:What so a region that represents the whole of 'Dyfed' (more or less) and has fans from Fishguard to Llandeilo and is made up of Llanelli, Quins and Llandeilo should suddenly call it's self a Premiership club instead to make it easier on you as your still stuck in the past?

Unlike the Blues the Scarlets have reached out to fans outside of Llanelli, and as a result of that and some other initatives (one of which is blooding talent from around the region - and North Wales ) has resulted in our attendances increasing year on year for the past few years.
So not sure why we should throw all that away and call ourselves something else.

Especially as the Blues model of trying to cling to being Cardiff RFC and not trying to attract anyone from outside the region isn't working particularly well as they are struggling for fans and crying out for more fans to attend their games.

Can't be asked to respond to your predictable anti Cardiff ramblings and i've no idea why you keep doing it.
As you've mentioned it though, there was a bloke on the radio yesterday from Fishguard who said he has always supported Cardiff.
Does it matter? Naarh. People choose to support who they want.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Unlike the Blues the Scarlets have reached out to fans

Not that I give a hoot, but have you evidence of this or are you just making it up?
I reckon you are fibbing Smirnhoff..

Really? well there's at least 4 members of this board who are Scarlets fans who aren't from Llanelli, Scarlets have also done a lot of work around the whole region and celebrate the fact that all 3 clubs are part of the region, they are attracting more fans (just look at the attendances) they dropped Llanelli from their name just after they started making a concerted effort to market themselves heavily outside of Llanelli and spent a lot of money and effort encouraging fans to 'Heart and Soul rugby land'. They also have players from all 3 clubs playing for the region, or send squad players to all 3 clubs for experience.

The only reason I'm having a go at the Blues is because you keep bringing up how the Scarlets are a superclub and are failing and you decide to call them Llanelli.

If you're friend is a Cardiff fans then that's fine and I imagine he's been a Cardiff fan for a decade or so, but I'm talking about the new (ish) entity the Cardiff Blues which is a different thing.

And as I've stated before I quite like the Blues and go down and see them quite often (though not as much this season admittedly), it's just the attitude of some fans who seem to think that they don't need regionalisation and that their still Cardiff RFC that bugs as they, like all the other clubs and regions would have been bust without regionalisation.

Top posts Priest.

Scarlets are a weird one, as Llanelli the club if you like, were always a west wales region, before the regions were even thought of!

What the Scarlets have kicked on to do now is to really fully embrace the concept and upped all their training camps in pembrokeshire and ceredigion especially so it's not just focussed in Carmarthenshire.

And like you say, we've got players from all 3 of our feeder clubs having a prominent role with the Scarlets squad now.

Sure, people can still call us a superclub if they like, but in doing so they'd just be ignoring all the good regional work that we are doing. OUr increase in attendances speaks for itself.

I will say one thing in favour of the Pontypridd supporters is that the Rhondda Cynon Taf area is the second most populous borough behind Cardiff in Wales.

If you called them the valleys and include Merthyr then the population base does dwarf the other 3 regions. One counter argument is that Pontypridd is only 10 minutes down the A470 from Cardiff, but then the Ospreys and the Scarlets are only 10 minutes apart themselves.

There are arguments to have a region in Pontypridd, but the biggest one is simply financial, and I agree with almost everyone else that Colwyn Bay should be the next place for a professional Welsh team, if we ever have the money to do so.

I will also add that the place where these 1000 people were found was here:
http://www.ponty.net/reform-regional-rugby-your-opinion-counts

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Unlike the Blues the Scarlets have reached out to fans

Not that I give a hoot, but have you evidence of this or are you just making it up?
I reckon you are fibbing Smirnhoff..

Dave - I am from Milford Haven in Pembrokeshire, and I am a Scarlets season ticket holder. My Father is a season ticket holder and he lives in Tegryn Pembrokeshire. There are a number of men from work who attend Scarlets matches on a regular basis, who are all from Pembrokeshire. If you were to travel towards PYS on a match day from the true west of wales, by the time you get to the St. Clears roundabout heading towards Carmarthen then you would notice there are a number of cars heading towards the match with people who are wear Scarlets shirts, or who have Scarlets bumperstickers.

Maybe you city slickers are too far up your own rumps to see what the rest of the nation are really up to.

Have they always been Scarlets (or Llanelli) fans? My in-law supports Scarlets because he supported LLanelli before them (and he's from the Neath valley). [edit: only just saw dreamer's post which backs up what I was saying]

On a completely unrelated topic, since ll is a welsh letter should it be LL if a place name or Ll or does it not matter (or names are capitalised in Welsh).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Dave - I am from Milford Haven in Pembrokeshire, and I am a Scarlets season ticket holder. My Father is a season ticket holder and he lives in Tegryn Pembrokeshire. There are a number of men from work who attend Scarlets matches on a regular basis, who are all from Pembrokeshire. If you were to travel towards PYS on a match day from the true west of wales, by the time you get to the St. Clears roundabout heading towards Carmarthen then you would notice there are a number of cars heading towards the match with people who are wear Scarlets shirts, or who have Scarlets bumperstickers.

Maybe you city slickers are too far up your own rumps to see what the rest of the nation are really up to.

I know the Scarlets (and Llanelli Scarlets before that and prior to regionalism) have always been well supported by those living outside the town. 60% was mentioned a while back on another forum.

the letter is actually Ll, Hammer, so no two LL's in a place name

Dave you asked for evidence earlier and I was just giving you the evidence that I personally was aware of.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Dave you asked for evidence earlier and I was just giving you the evidence that I personally was aware of.

I was replying to Smirnhoff who suggested Cardiff Blues haven't "reached out".
The thing is they have and are still doing so. You only have to browse their website to realise this.
I know of Cardiff Blues fans from Merthyr, Aberdare and Porth, so having supporters from outside the city is not a new thing.