The v2Journal Lions.

PUB DISCUSSIONS

Right, there isn’t a British and Irish Lions test match a week after the 6 Nations ends, but bear with us.

Rugby fans would not be Rugby fans if they were not at this time of year arguing over various composite XV from the 6 Nations teams. Just look at 606v2! We’ve gone for the classic:

The v2Journal British and Irish Lions to take on Australia*
(*if the match was a week after the 6 Nations and not next year)

The cream of the v2Journal share their knowledge and insight, well, their opinions at least. This is the team they have selected:

15 Kearney
14 North
13 Tuilagi
12 Davies
11 Halfpenny
10 Sexton
9 Phillips

1 Jenkins
2 Best
3 Jones
4 Gray
5 O’Connell
6 Ferris
7 Warburton (C)
8 Faletau

16 Healy
17 Ford
18 Charteris
19 O’Brien
20 Blair
21 Farrell
22 Foden

Coach: Warren Gatland

The contributors were briefed as follows:

“Feel free to select from outside the national squads and don't feel that you have to pick a team that Gatland would. Pick teams not individuals (this is not a "best player in each position we've seen in the 6 nations"). Nominate your captain and preferred coach.”

Biltong

Biltong is a South African and hence brings an outsider’s perspective.

Amongst his most interesting selections is: “10. ”

“At 10 I think the Lions are going to have a problem, neither Farrell, Priestland, Sexton or Laidlaw is really convincing yet. If someone doesn't start showing their hand, with Genia/Cooper or Genia/O'Connor there is trouble on the horizon.”

He also has reservations as to Mike Phillips who he sees as the only option and the coach:

“As far as who should be the coach and what game plan he will select is a conundrum.”

Robinson doesn’t impress him, Kidney has got enough on his plate at home and: “the English don't even have a permanent coach yet. That would leave Gatland, which I think is a mistake. I would suggest they get an outsider. Ask Graham Henry, or Nick Mallet to coach them and manage them from an outside perspective. These guys will be more objective and favouritism won't play a role.”

He also suggested an ‘alternative’ back row of Rennie, Warburton and Heaslip to maximise mobility and work rate to counter the threat of Pocock.

Hywel Davies

Hywel (as the name might suggest) is a Welsh fan. He also follows the Scarlets.

“To beat Australia in Australia, you have to have a pack of forwards than can beat them in the tight and match them in the loose. Evans, Gray and Charteris are athletes that will take pressure off the back row in the tight.

My team is about using the conditions to our advantage, getting our forwards around the park and fronting up at the scrum”

In a departure from the preferences of his National coach, Hywel prefers Jonathan Davies as an inside Centre, to team up with Tuilagi. This was a permutation also backed by Biltong. “Davies and Roberts are very similar, although I think Davies has the better eye for a break. Both he and the outside half should be all about making space for Tuilagi and North, knowing when to break is a big part of that”.

“Eddie O Sullivan as coach may raise eyebrows. He has the benefit of an insider’s understanding the Lions concept whilst still being something of an outsider in terms of selection. He’s always had his backs posing a threat.”

Pete Osborn

“Ozzy” is a true blue London Irish fan. He is not Irish and doesn't live in London (boom-boom!). He supports England.

“I want a side to play at high tempo and take the game to Australia, players who are capable of crossing the gain line and keeping the ball alive.”

An eye catching selection is Andrew Trimble on the right wing. “He would be given freedom to express himself (he hasn’t had for Ireland) and has the pace, power and intelligence to be a real handful for the opposition”.

Pete also rates Alex Corbisiero on the loose head. “He’s a monster in the loose and a competent scrummager. His tackle rate will be needed to repel Australian invaders.”

He also makes a case for the Welsh back row as an unit. “They complement each other unbelievably well. Lydiate is a tackle machine, Warburton a dog on the deck and great link man and Faletau a monster carrier. They can cause any team in the world problems in attack and defence. Captaincy seems to spur Warburton on to even higher performance levels, when it might sit heavily on other’s shoulders”

Tim Williams

Tim is a Dragons fan and also a Wales fan, with French sympathies, an English mother and North Walian father. It may not be surprising then that his was the most unconventional team.

Tim believes a full front row on the bench would pay dividends “Cian Healy and Euan Murray can make an impression off the bench, Murray at the scrum, Healy in the loose.”

He also suggests a rookie half back partnership: “Gareth Davies is lightning off the mark around the fringes and is just as physical as the often ponderous Mike Phillips. This would free up Duncan Weir, an excellent playmaker and the top points scorer in the Pro 12”

Another left field call is Ashley Beck. “Think Gavin Henson only younger and better and with hairier legs. With this footballer at 'first five-eighth' the Lions would have attacking threats from 9 to 13.”

Finally he suggests Hogg on the right wing due to his pace and ability to beat men one on one.

Donal Treacy

Donal is a Munster and Ireland fan.

He was not the only backer of Healy at the loosehead position, but his choice of second rows came as a bit of a surprise:

“04 Jim Hamilton
05 Geoff Parling

Hamilton and Parling offer a fascinating if unheralded (you said it! Ed.) pairing combining the skills of a brawling enforcer and a lineout tactician”

As to the back row “You need a tackler so get Chris Robshaw in there to allow the others (Ferris and Warburton) to do their thing.

He shares Tim’s halfback philosophy, but his recipe is different: “lets get good ball movement, vision and keep the Aussies guessing. Reddan and Sexton is a proven combination at both club and country”

He is another backer of the Davies/Tuilagi centre partnership: “Davies in his Scarlets number 12 alongside the most exciting 13 to burst onto the scene since O'Driscoll; Tuilagi”

As to full back “Stuart Hogg may be grabbing headlines but he is behind Foden, Kearney and Halfpenny in a VERY competitive position.” He opts for the otherwise un-fancied Foden.

Siobhan Corcoran

She’s the Welsh girl with an English dad and an Irish name.

Ross Ford has impressed her in this campaign: “hugely consistent with his throwing in, great leadership qualities, very good in the loose and the scrum.

Adam Jones is a virtually unanimous choice at tight head, as she puts it: “he’s just a rock at the scrum, no other comes close to him.

She is another who wanted to keep the Welsh back row intact: “Whilst Ferris has been playing a blinder for Ireland, I don't think he'd link in well with Faletau or Warburton. Same goes with not including Denton, don't think he'd link in well with Warburton and Lydiate. The Welsh back row are a sublime unit, I just wouldn't want to mess about with them.”

So there we have it. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we have. To discuss these choices and put forward your own take a look at 606v2.

If lots of people picked Healy or Cobisiero how is Jenkins there.

Also OConnell is injured.

One picked Corbisiero and two Healy, the rest went for Jenkins. I know O Connell's injured, but he wasn't when people put in their teams. Do you want me to tone that bit down? Has it upset you?

Glas, moved it to international section for you, thought it will get more of those obsessed 6 nation posters involved.

Upset me?

No just I hadnt seen Jenkins name mentioned at all in contrast to the others.

Some people picked Gray, Charteris, Evans etc and may not have done if O'Connell had been an option.

No they picked them when he was

I tended to highlight where people had departed from the norm. Try to get a feel for their thinking.

I dunno it just seems silly to me to have voted with certain players missing and yet they were included anyway?

It defeats the purpose of there being a definite timeframe.

red_stag wrote:Upset me?

No just I hadnt seen Jenkins name mentioned at all in contrast to the others.

Some people picked Gray, Charteris, Evans etc and may not have done if O'Connell had been an option.

Stag don't worry about it too much, my selection is the only important one here, and Glas dropped me as I selected Cuthbert.

No bother Biltong. How is all on the Highvelt?

I can start feeling the autumn coming, the evenings are getting slightly cooler, but rather pleasant.

You looking forward to the new fournations this year?

Not sure what you want from this???

Are you looking for opinions on the team?

Are you looking for congrats for involving people?

What do you want?

red_stag wrote:I dunno it just seems silly to me to have voted with certain players missing and yet they were included anyway?

It defeats the purpose of there being a definite timeframe.

You're right, I should have asked everybody who voted for him to vote again. As it was the next in line was Charteris which would see Lawes on the bench.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not sure what you want from this???

Are you looking for opinions on the team?

Are you looking for congrats for involving people?

What do you want?

AS this is a debating forum I would think it is rather obvious.

I suspect he wants your thoughts bluesman. Who would you pick if the Lions were playing the week after the 6 Nations?

Biltong I am - it needed a shake up to be honest. When it got to 9 matches a year involving same teams something had to give.

At home it was drawing a crowd but it was losing out on international audiences I would imagine.

Glas -

thebluesmancometh wrote:Not sure what you want from this???

Are you looking for opinions on the team?

Are you looking for congrats for involving people?

What do you want?

It's a V2 article, which is different to the discussion starters on here.

I suppose you could say how you would change the team?

How would I change the team?

How long have you got???

red_stag wrote:Biltong I am - it needed a shake up to be honest. When it got to 9 matches a year involving same teams something had to give.

At home it was drawing a crowd but it was losing out on international audiences I would imagine.

Glas -

Yeah I am very interested to see how Argentina is going to go, their PAMPAS team started their Vodacom cup campaign tonight and surprisingly they lost against the EP Kings. Last year they went through the comp unbeaten and took the title.

thebluesmancometh wrote:How would I change the team?

How long have you got???

We've got all night, there's no closing time on v2.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:How would I change the team?

How long have you got???

We've got all night, there's no closing time on v2.

I would take Bowe overas first choice winger and Roberts in midfield. Drop Halfpenny to the bench and move north over.

you need guys that thrive on lions tours and the two i would bring in have shown at they do already.

The backrow is good but the balance needs to be right. Ferris is marked out of games for ireland because O'Brien is knee deep in most rucks and there isnt much carrying threat beyond him. Including Roberts, North and Tuilagi means you can pack your offensive alignment with carriers and there are two many big men to all be decoys. Bowe is also fantastic at picking supporting lines.

with Warburton and Faletau providing a massive workrate it frees ferris up.

Standulsterman, I looked at Roberts, Barrit, Tuilagi and Davies and thought who would be the best balance.

You need a snipy, speedster with an eye for a gap, and a strike runner.

My choice was to have Tuilagi as the strike runner and Davies as the playmaker in the midfield.

Well lets begin at the begginning...

Front row.

Jones is a guarentee to tour and to start a test, for me best tighthead in the world, when fully fit and weight kept in check!

Jenkins is a good shout for his breakdown ability, I don't think his work around the park is as stand out as it once was as Healy and Corbs can do very similar. I'd prob give Healy my bench spot.

Best at hook I don't agree with, for me Ford is the standout hooker in the tourny and he'd be a much better suit inbetween the Welsh props. Then theres a case for the hugely experienced Rees to tour at least, a 2nd tour and test starts for them 3 would be formiddable and the Aus front row would struggle in the scrum.

Jones
Ford
Jenkins

Healy Bench
Rees Bench

It's a good team. Not sure if I'd have Halfpenny on the left wing. Half backs is where the weakness lies, but that's because of a lack of options, especially at 10.

I agree , Cuthbert on the left wing for me.

I dont think Davies has what it takes to be a playmaker. He feeds off gaps, he doesnt make them. He is very good at spotting them mind you. Roberts is a focal point. He can offload in the tackle and is am perfect foil to use as a decoy.

Davies is probably the 2nd best 12 in the islands at present though i agree.

2nd row I beleive is very interesting and a huge area of strength!

Gray is working in a 100% 33 streak lineout, but you have to give credit to Hamilton there too, and Hamilton is SO aggressive, the Aus tight 5 would struggle to handle him, although he can be a liability!

I'd really love to see Charteris and Gray start, work rate, aggression and that lineout ... WOW!

But the engine room needs bulk, so we look at POC, Bradley Davies and back to Hamilton.

Thats 5 very good options, and we havn't even mentioned Palmer, DOC or one of the tournys form locks Evans, talk about spoilt for choice!

I'd go against the grain of needing a lineoutman and an enforcer, and I would go for Gray and Charteris, what they lack in grunt the Welshboys make up for in the scrum.

For me POC, Bradley Davies and Hamilton are all options off the bench, I'd go for ...

Hamilton, there I said it. I'd send psycho on for 20 to really beat up the tired Aus tight 5.

There's been plenty of Lions selections but the OP was quite thought provoking with some interesting points of view.

I think the team selection is pretty much what I would go for but not sure about Davies/Tuilagi at centre. BOD, Tuilagi, Davies, Roberts and probably plenty of others who develop in the next 12 months will all be in contention - probably agree that on current form/fitness Davies and Tuilagi would edge it but I think that would change. They'd be a bit one dimensional. Agree that Kearney will be 15 on form so Halfpenny will have to move to wing, with Bowe hot on his heels. Can't see Charteris making the test 22 even as a Wales fan. I'm not sure he will repeat his world cup form. Also agree that some competition for Phillips is badly needed - he needs pressure on him, a number of quality scrum halves like Blair, Cusiter, Youngs seem to have gone off the boil a bit. Maybe Peel could be a bolter - if Gats isn't coach! Actually, I could see that happening if he is playing well for Sale.

Which brings me to the coach - no, please not Gatland. I can see so many problems with that, both for the Lions and Wales. Given the job spec and Irvine's desire for a 12 month appointment, surely go for someone totally objective who can devote that time to it and not have the complication of current national ties. Basically whichever of EOS or Mallett doesn't get the England job. I think EOS - who I can't see getting the England job - could be a good pick actually, as long as he has the right team around him.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Well lets begin at the begginning...

Front row.

Jones is a guarentee to tour and to start a test, for me best tighthead in the world, when fully fit and weight kept in check!

Jenkins is a good shout for his breakdown ability, I don't think his work around the park is as stand out as it once was as Healy and Corbs can do very similar. I'd prob give Healy my bench spot.

Best at hook I don't agree with, for me Ford is the standout hooker in the tourny and he'd be a much better suit inbetween the Welsh props. Then theres a case for the hugely experienced Rees to tour at least, a 2nd tour and test starts for them 3 would be formiddable and the Aus front row would struggle in the scrum.

Jones
Ford
Jenkins

Healy Bench
Rees Bench

Was that it? After all that huffing and puffing?

Subsbench, in any other year Halfpenny would be full back, but Kearney is on fire. Unless your outside half is a solid kicker, Halfpenny needs to start.

Back row.

Warbs is just about nailed on, Rennies recent form justifys him to tour, but the test shirt is Warbs.

6 is a bit more difficult, for me Ferris is the most talented the isles have, but Lydiate works so well in the Welsh back row, a recent quote springs to mind.

'Ferris is a far better player than Lydiate, but would Ferris make the Wales team? NO'

It's hard to justify Falatau over Heaslip, but form indicates otherwise. I think Falatau is a bit passive, and I want someone who'll front up more, so at 8 I'd go for SOB, positive Aus experiences and with a better functioning 6 and 7 can cut loose more.

6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. SOB

Ferris Bench

halfback.

Phillips will tour, he's not a good 9, but he's a good weapon to have in the armoury.

Youngs isn't playing well enough, which is a shame because he's prob my favourite 9 in the isles at his best.

Cusiter has gone well, as has Murray but for me the starting 9 at present has to be Blair, really starting to show his potential, finally and I think given a strong platform could really give the Lions the go forward and speed they'll need.

9. Blair

Phillips Bench

As we know a lot will happen between now and the tour itself but it's interesting to see where we stand today. My views are

The Backs
Exactly how I would pick the starting line up. Although he is not currently starting on the wing for Wales I would have want Halfpenny in the team so agree with his selection on the wing as Kearney is a must on current form. Phillips wouldn't always be my choice at 9 as I prefer faster service but think in general it is not a position of great strength in world rugby at the moment. I actually hope some of the younger players like Youngs regain form to challenge Phillips and offrer an alternative style of play. Agree with the backs bench picks as well.

The Forwards
Would maybe swap Ford for Best as I think Best could make a greater impact as defenses tire and Ford is very strong in the scrum, an area where we will probably target the Aussies. Props and second rows are a no brainier for me but I would change the backrow. I'm a fan of Faletau but Lydiate is a must at 6 for me and with Warbarton a certainty at 7 (and captain) then I would want a bigger 8, probably Denton if he keeps progressing at his current rate, or Heaslip if he regains his 2009 form. Lydiate would push Ferris onto the bench and I would take a risk and name SOB on the bench too, with no second row cover. I would then ask either Ferris or Denton to cover 2nd row - both have the power and required skill set to do it if called upon, especially Denton who is plenty big enough to play there. The scrum wouldn't suffer power-wise either.

So my team would be
15 Kearney
14 Halfpenny
13 Tuilagi
12 Davies
11 North
10 Sexton
9 Phillips

1 Jenkins
2 Ford
3 Jones
4 Gray
5 O’Connell
6 Lydiate
7 Warburton (C)
8 Denton

16 Healy
17 Best
18 Ferris
19 O’Brien
20 Blair
21 Farrell
22 Foden

I'm an England & Saints fan by the way (just to prove there is no bias )

See i think this is where people dont get Ferris. In 09 he basically did the same job that Lydiate is doing for wales and was probably more destructive in the tackle. His role has changed purely because ireland lack carriers of his stature elsewhere and we have a centre pairing and botched half back combo that has stunted all threat.

Lydiate is a phenomenal player but Ferris can do the same job as him. He just isnt being asked to. I agree though the defence of the welsh back row is awesome. Without front foot ball im not sure they have as much influence offensively but Faletau i think will learn this. He is ridiculously young isnt he?

Jenkins, Ford, Jones, Gray, POC (?), Ferris, Warburton, Faletau/Heaslip, Phillips, Farrell, North, Roberts, Tuilagi, Bowe, Kearney

Best, Healy, Charteris, Rennie, Reddan, Sexton, Halfpenny

Sexton, Preistland and Flood for me are the only options at present, and all will travel I think but only 1 can start a test and I don't beleive there is room for another on the bench.

Preistland offers a great running game, Sexton not so much, but Sexton's kicking options are so much better.

For me I have to go with Flood, he offers enough of a running threat, combined with the kicking game and has beaten Aus before.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Back row.

Warbs is just about nailed on, Rennies recent form justifys him to tour, but the test shirt is Warbs.

6 is a bit more difficult, for me Ferris is the most talented the isles have, but Lydiate works so well in the Welsh back row, a recent quote springs to mind.

'Ferris is a far better player than Lydiate, but would Ferris make the Wales team? NO'

It's hard to justify Falatau over Heaslip, but form indicates otherwise. I think Falatau is a bit passive, and I want someone who'll front up more, so at 8 I'd go for SOB, positive Aus experiences and with a better functioning 6 and 7 can cut loose more.

6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. SOB

Ferris Bench

Hi Bluesman I think we've discussed the Ferris/Lydiate comparison before and the whole Wales back row combination issue (compared to Ireland's great back rowers being less than the sum of the parts). Much as I think Lydiate's great for Wales, I still think that if Ferris was Welsh he'd have been our 6 for the last 4 years so Lydiate wouldn't have had the opportunity anyway. I also just think that Ferris is too good not to be Lions 6, he's just not being utilised right by Kidney. And I can't really see the whole Wales back row being picked for the Lions even though there might be an argument for it, so the whole Lydiate/combination argument goes out of the window anyway!

I also don't understand the statement that Ferris is a better player than Lydiate but wouldn't get on the Welsh team. Balance etc etc yet Ferris does the job Lydiate does and more. If Ferris were welsh, I am pretty sure he would start at 6, being the better player.

Centres

JD2 is the most potent and creative 13 in the tourny to date, picking him anywhere other than 13 would look silly, although seeing him at 12 V Aus could turn out to be a masterstroke. I wouldn't go to Aus as that as my choice starting 12 though, I would want bosh down the 10 channell, so Roberts has to go.
Tuilagi, well the less said the better, I am not a fan of him at 13, but I can't argue his destructive carrying, I'd consider him to tour but definately not start.

12. Roberts
13. Davies

Back 3

Well they have already picked themselves...

North is unstoppable at present
Bowe is going for the record without the Irish backline firing well.
Kearney is on fire.

1/2p very unlucky not to start but a bench spot awaits.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I also don't understand the statement that Ferris is a better player than Lydiate but wouldn't get on the Welsh team. Balance etc etc yet Ferris does the job Lydiate does and more. If Ferris were welsh, I am pretty sure he would start at 6, being the better player.

Yep I have to agree with that Rory even though I feel you do underrate Lydiate a bit - both great tacklers, but Ferris offers quite a bit more dynamism as a ball carrier. Lydiate possibly a bit more of a grafter, doing the unseen work. But I think the ball carrying is probably the main difference.

So my team would be...

1. Jenkins
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Charteris
6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. SOB
9. Blair
10. Flood
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Healy
17. Rees
18. Hamilton
19. Ferris
20. Phillips
21. Hook
22. 1/2p

I know what your thinking where did Hook come from? Sheer class and flexibility, Hook can cover 10, centres and FB, and 1/2p covers back 3.

I still think that if Ferris was Welsh he'd have been our 6 for the last 4 years so Lydiate wouldn't have had the opportunity anyway

FULLY AGREE WITH THAT!

But to clear up my point, Ferris and Lydiate are similar players, Ferris offers a better carrying threat but Lydiate definately does a lot more unseen, plus Lydiates defencive organisation and linespeed is unrivaled in the tourny.

Ferris is a classier player, and gets more camera time, but he definately wouldn't knock Lydiate out of the Welsh combination.

I'd go as far to say man for man the Irish have arguably the best back row in the world, but 3 times in a row now it's come off 2nd best to Wales!

thebluesmancometh wrote:So my team would be...

1. Jenkins
2. Ford
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. Charteris
6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. SOB
9. Blair
10. Flood
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Healy
17. Rees
18. Hamilton
19. Ferris
20. Phillips
21. Hook
22. 1/2p

I know what your thinking where did Hook come from? Sheer class and flexibility, Hook can cover 10, centres and FB, and 1/2p covers back 3.

Controversial half backs Bluesman. Very controversial on current form. And yes, I can't quite see Hooky on the bench as things stand. He's doing a job for Wales. But would you really want him coming on at centre or full back (or frankly outside half - unless he's got back in the Wales team by then and has done well) in the middle of a critical Lions test?? I reckon Halfpenny will be in the team on the wing but covering full back if Kearney goes off, so the backs replacements would be scrum half, outside half (the out and out 2nd choice, no thinking about covering centre), and centre/wing. No need for Hook's versatilty. I suspect by then North will be able to move to 13 as well if it came to it.

I think your underestimating Hook, I'd go as far to say that he would start for every other 6N team at either 10 or centre, Ireland and Scotland would love him at 13, England would love him at 12, and Frnace and Italy would play him at 10. Just because he's not in the Wales team doesn't mean he won't tour with the lions!

North covering centre would be a big mistake, he needs to make his game flawless at wing first!

How can you say you'd start 1/2p over Bowe? the biggest part of 1/2ps game has been his defence and kicking at goal, neither will be needed in my team, whereas Bowes try scoring ability and size is another worry for Aus!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I still think that if Ferris was Welsh he'd have been our 6 for the last 4 years so Lydiate wouldn't have had the opportunity anyway

FULLY AGREE WITH THAT!

But to clear up my point, Ferris and Lydiate are similar players, Ferris offers a better carrying threat but Lydiate definately does a lot more unseen, plus Lydiates defencive organisation and linespeed is unrivaled in the tourny.

Ferris is a classier player, and gets more camera time, but he definately wouldn't knock Lydiate out of the Welsh combination.

I'd go as far to say man for man the Irish have arguably the best back row in the world, but 3 times in a row now it's come off 2nd best to Wales!

Don't disagree with any of that really - but I don't think the Lions coach, whether Gats or someone else - will go for a back row based on national combinations - they'll go for the stand out individuals from the warm up games as long as they can fulfil a role. It would go against the Lions ethos to do otherwise. We saw an all England back row in '97 and the Wales front row in '09 but that was just because they were the best players in those positions rather than because they were used to playing together. Anyway, good though the Wales back row is at the moment, surely a good coach would be able to merge the best bits of (probably) the Welsh/Irish back rows, though Denton, Rennie, Wood etc will also have something to say about that.

Mentioning Wales front row of 09 makes my point.

That first test was lost by Vickery and Mears, they started and were considered by the coaching set up to be superior players to Jones and Rees, and they were in better form at least, but the scrum went from being dominated to getting the upper hand with the intrduction of the better combination up front, the engine room stayed the same.

I don't think Denton, Rennie or Wood have done anything than have a few decent games on their breakthrough so far, even Andy Powell looked good for a tourny, it's how they respond to the laptops working them out that proves their quality.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I think your underestimating Hook, I'd go as far to say that he would start for every other 6N team at either 10 or centre, Ireland and Scotland would love him at 13, England would love him at 12, and Frnace and Italy would play him at 10. Just because he's not in the Wales team doesn't mean he won't tour with the lions!

North covering centre would be a big mistake, he needs to make his game flawless at wing first!

How can you say you'd start 1/2p over Bowe? the biggest part of 1/2ps game has been his defence and kicking at goal, neither will be needed in my team, whereas Bowes try scoring ability and size is another worry for Aus!

Hi Bluesman, sorry posts crossed. Just to make clear, I think Hook has been really badly treated by both Ospreys and Wales over the years and could have become a great international 10. Unfortunately he's been messed around appallingly and now he's in France there must be a big doubt whether he'll get the run of games at 10 for Wales that he's been needing for the last 5 years. Maybe he'll get a chance this summer in Aus. You may be right about other teams being happy to pick him at 12 and we're lucky to have some really good centres in Wales at the moment, but I was never been convinced about him at 12 or 13 for Wales. Some moments of brilliance but also too many serious mistakes, interceptions, dodgy defence etc which cost games. I think his versatility is really admirable - no one else could cover the positions he does for Wales - and am completely for him being on the Wales bench but I think the Lions is a different matter as you have so many other options. I'd take him in the Lions squad though.

As for Halfpenny/Bowe, I think Bowe is fantastic I just think Halfpenny is exceptional at the moment, and also kicks long range goals and covers full back - but I'd play him on the wing even without those strings to his bow, I just think he's a brilliant rugby player. who is getting better and better

Halfpenny is exceptional at the moment, and also kicks long range goals and covers full back - but I'd play him on the wing even without those strings to his bow, I just think he's a brilliant rugby player. who is getting better and better.

+1

I just think Bowe gives the backline more balance, and a better option going forward, theres nothing between him and Kearney, but Kearney has been so much better under a high ball, which is 1/2p's weakness. Cooper does like a good cross feild kick too.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Mentioning Wales front row of 09 makes my point.

That first test was lost by Vickery and Mears, they started and were considered by the coaching set up to be superior players to Jones and Rees, and they were in better form at least, but the scrum went from being dominated to getting the upper hand with the intrduction of the better combination up front, the engine room stayed the same.

I don't think Denton, Rennie or Wood have done anything than have a few decent games on their breakthrough so far, even Andy Powell looked good for a tourny, it's how they respond to the laptops working them out that proves their quality.

Interesting points there, I can't remember what the form of Mears & Vickery was like but you must be right, they must have been picked in the 1st test for a reason....

Yeah, totally agree about Denton & Rennie (& Wood) but I would be surprised if the Scots back rowers in particular didn't continue to make rapid progress over the next 12 months - we shall see. You're right that we've seen plenty of one season wonders, I just doubt that those guys would fit into that category - someone like Powell was always more obviously a one trick pony.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Halfpenny is exceptional at the moment, and also kicks long range goals and covers full back - but I'd play him on the wing even without those strings to his bow, I just think he's a brilliant rugby player. who is getting better and better.

+1

I just think Bowe gives the backline more balance, and a better option going forward, theres nothing between him and Kearney, but Kearney has been so much better under a high ball, which is 1/2p's weakness. Cooper does like a good cross feild kick too.

It will be a tough decision that back three, that's for sure. Plenty of options and I'd be more than happy to see Bowe on the wing, excellent player.