Worst ref display ever

by slartibartfast Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well, I know going to get slated on this site, but that was the worst ref I've ever seen.

Any one going to defend him?

by Feckless Rogue Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:41 pm

Wales just weren't good enough to run riot against a poor Italy team. It happens to all of us sometimes. If you play well against Italy they can crumble in the last quarter and you can turn on the fireworks.

But if you're below par, Italy will stubbornly resist and frustrate you. Wales just weren't at their best and that's not the refs fault.

But don't worry. I think the Welsh will rise to occasion next week and win the Grand Slam.

by JLyall Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:42 pm

Definitely. Of course the Warburton red is a massively controversial issue, but aside from that I really rate him as a ref.

by maestegmafia Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:55 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Clancy should be tried for crimes against rugby, feel so sorry for the paying fans,
they went to watch a game of rugby not a man mince around and ignore the breakdown and reset scrums.

Well done Wales maturity shone through in the end and still come away with the win

The IRB have to act. That was a £500 day out for me and many hundreds of other fans. Let alone all those wonderfully Italian fans who flew from home.

Games can not be ruined by such inapditude. I could hear the whistle more often than the Italian and Welsh fans were booing in unison.

by Guest Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:05 pm

Yep i agree a couple of times Italy looked to build he blew the whistle and i to felt frustration for them.

It was a bore fest because of Clancy, he didn't come down harsh enough on Italy for constant infringement at the breakdown so they just continued to lie all over the ball, not Italys fault because as far as they were concerned they were keeping the score down and not getting on trouble for it.

Halfpenny's yellow was completely the wrong decision, what is he supposed to do whilst in mid air competing for the high ball? move direction!!!

Clancy is just a typical Irish ref with poor fitness and understanding of the game so likes to keep it slow.

Anyways well done Wales bring on the SLAM Wales

and i pray to God we have a southern hemisphere ref next week

by Guest Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:14 pm

maestegmafia wrote:You are talking out your backside..!

Great debate again, maesteg. You truly are being a bit of an offensive chap on this thread (again!). Rolling Eyes

by eirebilly Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:25 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:You are talking out your backside..!
Great debate again, maesteg. You truly are being a bit of an offensive chap on this thread (again!).

by maestegmafia Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:52 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Yep i agree a couple of times Italy looked to build he blew the whistle and i to felt frustration for them.

It was a bore fest because of Clancy, he didn't come down harsh enough on Italy for constant infringement at the breakdown so they just continued to lie all over the ball, not Italys fault because as far as they were concerned they were keeping the score down and not getting on trouble for it.

Halfpenny's yellow was completely the wrong decision, what is he supposed to do whilst in mid air competing for the high ball? move direction!!!

Clancy is just a typical Irish ref with poor fitness and understanding of the game so likes to keep it slow.

Anyways well done Wales bring on the SLAM
and i pray to God we have a southern hemisphere ref next week

I couldn't give a monkeys about The Card. It made no difference to the match.

The redding of the breakdown either way for Italy and for Wales was awful and ruined the game.

by Guest Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:13 pm

All attacking teams now seal off the ball using as few forwards as possible in order to continue this multi phase RL style and refs have come to the conclusion this is too far weighted in the attacking teams favour. The other tactic of coming round the side of rucks and grabbing the head and neck of the defender over the ball has to be stamped out too.

The cat is out the bag for all teams and Gatland in particular, given his comments, knows it.

by offload Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:26 pm

Some ridiculous comments on this thread. Clancy had a reasonable and consistent game. Of course it was a yellow card, anyone thinking otherwise should start watching something a bit more suited to a lower IQ.

We won comfortably despite a lack of creativity and execution. Italy were very good in defense with great line speed. If we had made less errors and shown a bit more patience we would have scored more points.

Four from four and one more to look forward to. thumbsup

by maestegmafia Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:47 pm

offload wrote:Some ridiculous comments on this thread. Clancy had a reasonable and consistent game. Of course it was a yellow card, anyone thinking otherwise should start watching something a bit more suited to a lower IQ.

Easy mate...

I couldn't disagree with you more but certainly lack commenting on my opinion of your IQ. That was an awful refereeing display. Ruined the game. Not unusual for Clancy..!

by offload Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:06 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
offload wrote:Some ridiculous comments on this thread. Clancy had a reasonable and consistent game. Of course it was a yellow card, anyone thinking otherwise should start watching something a bit more suited to a lower IQ.

Easy mate...

I couldn't disagree with you more but certainly lack commenting on my opinion of your IQ. That was an awful refereeing display. Ruined the game. Not unusual for Clancy..!

Apologies Maesteg, I disagree with you about Clancy but no offence intended. Poor choice of words on my part.

by slartibartfast Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:27 am

Look here, forget the yellow, this isn't about the yellow

If anyone can say that was well reffed then they must be on a different planet to me, and I apologise for being on the wrong planet.

It's now 8 hous since the game and I'm still of he opinion that the only reason why that game was a bore fest was the ref

by maestegmafia Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:36 am

slartibartfast wrote:Look here, forget the yellow, this isn't about the yellow

If anyone can say that was well reffed then they must be on a different planet to me, and I apologise for being on the wrong planet.

It's now 8 hours since the game and I'm still of he opinion that the only reason why that game was a bore fest was the ref

Biltong posted match stats for his famed quarters match of SA Vs Oz and the figures are almost identicle. Difference being although one team was out played both teams were prevented from doing their best. It ruined the match.

by Taylorman Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:07 am

I'm not very astute at the referee side of things Maesteg but what areas was he poor? Breakdown rulings, offside or?

I thought it was a great game. Lots of mistakes but also a lot of good things. Accuracy and execution for me were the reason Wales didn't pile on more points or score tries.

Italy defended very well and managed to scramble so as not to give Wales an inch but the opportunities were certainly there I thought.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:49 am

It was another game that confirmed what many said yesterday about the bad standard of this years 6Ns.
Errors everywhere from both sides.

Don't get me wrong I love all the games as a rugby follower but it just wasn't quality rugby for a lot of the time & as JPR said any other team would have beaten Wales yesterday on that performance.

by mankiaow Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:58 am

Wales were pretty ordinary. Couldn't break down a resolute Italian defence. Blaming the ref for the quality of your play is pretty absurd. As has been said, Italy tend to drag you into a dogfight, unless you are good enough to get out of it. So if it wasn't a spectacle for over-expectant Welsh supporters, maybe you are not as good as you think you are.

by nathan Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:52 am

oh dear, some of your welsh fans should seriously stop and listen to yourselves. Basically your angry at the ref because your team didn't win by 50 points, You play to the ref, that's what you always tell everyone else!

Also how the hell can anyone be saying it's not a yellow card!! he dragged him down out of the air by his shorts!!

Worst ref display ever - Page 2 5dpevp

by eirebilly Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:01 am

Personally i thought that Clancy was a bit picky but he was very consistent.

I thought that 1/2p yellow was 50/50 but thay most refs are giving the yellows these days for those sort of things. You have to get your timing spot on and 1/2p was just slightly out with his.

I enjoyed the match on a whole and did not think that it was a borefest. Many people were expecting Wales to absolutely crunch Italy but for the last weeks i have been trying to point out that Irelands victory margin flattered them due to Italy's poor performance and that i was certain they would not be that poor again.

Credit to the Italians defense for largly containing a very good Welsh attack is how i preer to look at it.

by dogtooth Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:10 am

clancey was, on a few occations, rather slow. he helped slow the game down, it seemed to me

by thebluesmancometh Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:28 am

eierbilly

As always mate the words of a trusted and well rounded poster!!!

1/2p was clumsy, his timing was out, and his lead leg to jump was a step too late, it didn't help that Parisse was already 1/2p's head height. To credit Parisse he wasn't rolling around in agony, he wasn't milking anything, he was genuinely stunned by an awkward fall for a minute. And to credit 1/2p clumsy is not malicious, and he even tries to rescue the situation using Parisse's shorts in an attemt to pull him toward him.

I know all the pundits were saying no yellow because 1/2p didn't take his eye off the ball, but I say yellow because 1/2p didn't take his eye off the ball. Any chasing player who just ball watches is asking for trouble, you have to glance at opposing players to determine if you can win the ball or not.

I also disagree that it was a poor performance, and a borefest. Our game is based on a rock solid defence, which it was. Only 3 points conceded in any 6N game is impressive, whoever you are!

Also does anyone not think that a 21 point victory was not enough... I had my money on Wales by 11 - 15!!!

Why are people talking about us not breaking down the Italian defence? We did twice, and beat the first up defence over and over!

I was very impressed by the way we were dominant in most aspects, the breakdown was much more competitive than I thought it would be but I think that was down to the refs interpretation, and us a little slow to react to it.

What I wasn't impressed with was how slow we were to get that ball away from the contact area, Italy were afforded a few special privilages late on with being on the wrong side, but Phillips wanted to play a structured game, which suited the Italian defence!

I thought Webb did well when he came on, but to prove my point our first tap and go was by our loosehead prop in the 75th minute... and we all know how that ended.

All in all, a solid performance, unspectacular in nature but there wasn't a moment when I thought Italy could trouble us, just what we needed before France. I thought Italy were as England were, very structured and disciplined in defense.

France will defend exactly the same way as Italy and England, the difference is we have now had 2 games against that defence, and will surely get a better result from their efforts.

For me... Job done, bring on the French!

by eirebilly Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:35 am

Nice post bluesman

I would like to add that the Italian scramble defence was almost impeccable. Time after time, Wales broke the line only for some last minute scramble defence by the Italians to deny tries. The tackle that Parisse made on 1/2p was outstanding Very Happy

by R!skysports Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:41 am

Actually as a neutral, thought he had a good game. The Italians were good at the breakdown and turnover ball when the Welsh got isolated.

As a Scotsman, I can point to a million games that were reffed worst than that....

by freeman lowell Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:41 am

agreed,couple of posters seem to be disrespecting the opposition here,enjoy the win and be gracious in victory.......

by thebluesmancometh Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:55 am

billy

Spot on mate, Italy were turned time and time again, they had the heart to fight every time they were, unlike Ireland where I think they gave up the ghost too easily.

There were try savers all over the park, Parisse was immense as always, and your right that tackle... WOW!

Parisse will be haunting 1/2p's dreams for weeks, everytime 1/2p touched the ball Parisse was there to get him, even the chase to the ball in the Welsh 22 Parisse handled 1/2p really well and almost beat him there.

I think the Welsh boys are getting a little carried away with their size, time and time again North, Cuthbert and Roberts are running over and through people when it's just not necesary, footork before contact is vanishing and making it easiy to catch up as a 2nd tackler.

Take the cross feild kick for example, nicely done and Cuthbert runs through Burton, but it's enough to slow hime down, Burton was like a rabbit in the headlights and was set in a posiition very early, I think Cuthbert couldve gone outside of him, handed him off and in for a score, the inside man wouldn't have been able to come across then but Cuthbert just runs over him.

Making tacklers look like mere speedbumps is one thing, but you have to remember the idea of a speedbump is not to stop anything, but to slow everything down, thats what happened to us yesterday, and what happens to Tuilagi too.

by eirebilly Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:58 am

I also thought that the marking on Priestland by the Italians was great. They were all over him and really stiffled his game. I am not sure that i can be too critical of Priestlands performance because it was a clear Italian gameplan to attack Priestland.

by thebluesmancometh Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:23 am

Stop it Billy!!!!

You are again smack on, Preistland wasn't bad at all, infact I think he did well under pressure from a defence that targetted him. His problem is, with these performances defences are going to continually target him. Until he puts in the kind of performance that worries defences into playing the percentage game against him he is going to struggle.

I think he needs to do a bit more himself instead of being too unselfish, a little chip and chase, the odd dummy and go (effective one) and maybe a 2nd 1st receiver option now and then to mix things up would help him.

NOT TO MENTION PHILLIPS SLOW AND VERY POORLY EXECUTED BALL!!

by dogtooth Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:37 am

bluesman. come on, phillips' delivery has speeded up no end. he is much quicker these days. he offers a lot, and now he has speeded up his delivery he is by far our best scrum half option

by thebluesmancometh Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:40 am

Except that Jenkins was the one who had to inject some pace on 75 minutes!

And Webb actually took a few balls from the floor on the move!

Phillips didn't stand behind the ruck waving forwards around in structured unison until he was satisfied we were allowed to play the ball to another ruck!

2nd phase ball going wide has to be taken on the move, and service cannot be above Preistlands head 2 out of 3 times!!

by dogtooth Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:43 am

i'll probably rewatch the match. i was very, Ale

very,

hic yesterday.

but who would we replace phillips with? there is no other testmatch level 9 available.

by Cymroglan Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:50 am

There is no way I would replace Phillips against the French he is just the man we need to wind them up.

by doctornickolas Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:16 am

I thought Clancy was consistent if nothing else.

I just think he spoilt the game, he must have had a new whistle!

The didn't seem to have much empathy for the flow of the game at all. I'm not on here moaning that Wales were robbed or anything because we weren't.

I just think he was too urgent blowing up for both sides, Lets be honest there are a dozen offences at each breakdown and if you want to you could penalise each one, which Clancy was doing, but sometimes you just have to give a little bit of slack to the players. People are paying good money to watch and I think the ref has a responsibility to let the game flow a little bit.

As for Wales they will be disappointed with that display but I thought Italy were much improved from earlier displays and the changes in personnel hugely improved their game. They tackled their hearts out and didn' t really fade as I expected.

This has got to be good for the championship though to see a much more competitive Scotland and Italy as we have seen this year. It means that a team had to be on the ball in every game. Love it,

by eirebilly Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:42 am

I think that its a NH reffing thing DrNic. The NH ref's seem a little more eager to blow their whistles than the SH ref's.

Yesterday, during the Ireland match, Ireland were engaging early on nearly every scrum in the first half but the SH ref turned a blind eye to it as the scrums were stable. A NH ref would have stopped and penalised the Irish to within and inch of their lives.

SH ref's always make for a more open and flowing game.

by **Biltong** Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:22 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Stop it Billy!!!!

You are again smack on, Preistland wasn't bad at all, infact I think he did well under pressure from a defence that targetted him. His problem is, with these performances defences are going to continually target him. Until he puts in the kind of performance that worries defences into playing the percentage game against him he is going to struggle.

I think he needs to do a bit more himself instead of being too unselfish, a little chip and chase, the odd dummy and go (effective one) and maybe a 2nd 1st receiver option now and then to mix things up would help him.

NOT TO MENTION PHILLIPS SLOW AND VERY POORLY EXECUTED BALL!!

Bluesman, good to see you being objective.

I do disagree with you a little though.

Yes Priestland was definitely targeted and Italy tried their best to isolate him from his support runners. What he didn't do well under that pressure was to alter his depth. If you are in your 22 especially it helps to vary the depth as to have more time to make a decision, in the field of play when under constant pressure it also helps, he should have used little kicks into the box to get those defenders hesitant on what he will do next, instead he kept kicking long and deep.

He must work on his tactical kicking and vary his position behind the ruck.

Phillips in my opinion was better than previous matches where his service were quicker, the problem with Phillips was as soon as he took a sniping run he didn't look for support runners to offload to.

by PenfroPete Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:36 pm

Very impressed with Chris Pollock yesterday clap

Think Clancy has improved a lot in the last 18 months, but yesterday he drifted back in to his bad old ways - lack of concentration, missing obvious knock-on's ..etc Crying or Very sad

by Feckless Rogue Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:15 pm

Chris Pollock was brilliant actually. Quick, decisive, consistent and nearly always right.

The only problem with the Ireland Scotland game was the amount of time spent resetting scrums. I thought the IRB were going to do something about scrums after the RWC?

by tigerleghorn Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:15 pm

Once again the Irish/French ref Alain Rolland did his best to deny an English victory.

English players get 10 mins for deliberate knock on but for French it's apparently o.k.

by maestegmafia Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:25 pm

tigerleghorn wrote:Once again the Irish/French ref Alain Rolland did his best to deny an English victory.

English players get 10 mins for deliberate knock on but for French it's apparently o.k.

Rolland is famous for saying "anymore of that and there is a yellow card coming" and making that apply to both sides even if one has only offended once. Unfortunately that is what sharples was the victim of.

He is not a perfect referee by any means. Though better than many in other ways. I gues teams just have to judge what mood he is in.

by mystiroakey Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:33 pm

look guys the better team won in both occasions so its all good!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:08 pm

eirebilly wrote:I think that its a NH reffing thing DrNic. The NH ref's seem a little more eager to blow their whistles than the SH ref's.

.

Youve obviously never seen Kaplan reffing England.

Refs get hammered for not calling penalties. They get hammered for letting things slide in the scrum ( Rolland was ridiculous, lecturing both teams rather than just free kicking them for early engagement then letting the next one go anyway).
Now one tries to actually apply the laws and hes the worst ref ever?

Missing the forward passes etc is a different issue, but his actual application of the laws was pretty strong IMO.

A lot of the booing was purely frustration and a lack of knowledge of what was going on and what had been penalised by the fans.
the yellow card is almost a carbon copy of the example of tackling a player in the air on the IRB site. He had already warned the Welsh about an earlier one too.

As for Rolland the controversy is not giving one for Fofana which was a much more clear cut decision ( which he somehow missed and had to be told by the AR) than the Sharples one. Both denied clear cut scoring chances with overlaps so there is a case for yellow in both. The inconistency was huge, and it is inconsistent with what refs have been doing in similar situations recently.
Ill just remind England fans how many of them were calling for the welsh chap to be carded for deliberately knocking the ball out of play...
Rolland went a bit odd trying to justify it by saying hed issued a warning, for a different type of offense which england had been penalised for again without a card anyway.
He just seemed to have lost it a bit trying to make a strong decision. A bit like the rest of the French team Whistle

by slartibartfast Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:00 am

Doesn't matter about the offence, there was a string of them.

Also the French guy knocked the ball up, where as sharples slapped at it.

So you're not comparing like with like.

by **Biltong** Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:25 am

refereeing is on a hiding to nothing, whether it is someone who is too involved in the game and become pedantic and too technical to a point where the game is ruined as a spectacle like Rollaind, or when a referee simply does nothing like Bryce Lawrence.

The sport is losing credibility in my opinion and many close games are not won or lost by the teams themselves but by a fortuitous decision or non decision made by referees.

The game is too fast and too complicated for referees to have any hope of being accurate enough in.

Studies showed the avergae match has over 200 refereeing decision, and if a referee has a 90% accuracy rate which in my view is almost impossible, it leaves 2 contentious decisions in a match.

It is likely that teams get a roll of 50/50 decisions going their way for a number of games and then the tide turns against them.

It is a sad state of affairs.

Smart teams have now learnt it is as important to play to the referee as it is to go to gym to keep their conditoning up to par.

rugby is no longer about being the best team at playing rugby, it is about referee's interpretations and how to use his fallable human nature to their advantage.

For how long have we seen teams with weaker scrums get the referee as their safety net to negate their weaknesses. how long have we now seen rucks being a farce.

by eirebilly Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:41 am

PenfroPete wrote:Very impressed with Chris Pollock yesterday Think Clancy has improved a lot in the last 18 months, but yesterday he drifted back in to his bad old ways - lack of concentration, missing obvious knock-on's ..etc

As was i. It was his debut international was it not? If so he put in a very good showing and he controlled the match excellently.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:05 am

slartibartfast wrote:Doesn't matter about the offence, there was a string of them.

Also the French guy knocked the ball up, where as sharples slapped at it.

So you're not comparing like with like.

helps if you read teh laws first.
A referee can warn then penalise and individual for a string of offenses of any type, or a team for a specific offence.
Can you point to the string of deliberate knock ons that England were penalised for, or the string of penalties that Sharples gave away? It was a first offence in both cases.

As for teh deliberate knock on, in Sharples; case the hand came round the ball and was scooping at it, theres an argument he had a chance of catching it. I dont object to it being called a deliberate knock on though but he had a far greater chance of catching i than Fofana who would never have been able to jump high enough to do anything other than knock the ball and didnt have a hand position to catch it. So yes we arent comparing like for like, Fofanas was a much clearer call.
Its the inconsistency thats the issue, it just looks ridiculous.

by R!skysports Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:48 am

The reason the ref gave the yellow was he had warned England before about continuos infringment. You hear him after talking to the captain that is was another infringment and it left him no choice

So the only difference between the two, was England had been warned before that the next offence was a yellow, France had not.

However, that was before halftime and I think it was a harsh yellow - but that was the reasoning behind it

by eirebilly Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:58 am

The deliberate and calculated knock on is a yellow card offence in itself by the letter of the law, although hardly punished.

To me it had nothing to do with continued infringements, Rolland just punished it by the letter of the law. Had he have also dont that against Fofana then this would be nothing. Both players knew exactly what they were doing and knew that there were overlaps outside them. Both clear yellow cards in my eyes.

by R!skysports Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:01 am

Maybe part of it was Rolland did not see the French one, and had to be told by the line judge

by eirebilly Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:04 am

On the replay he is not that far away from the action and is looking right at it. He saw it and immediately awarded a knock-on. The AR came in to say that it was deliberate and should be a penalty.

by Woodstock Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:12 am

Q: Would Barnes ever be allowed to ref another New Zealand v France game?

If not why not?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:29 am

Riskysports wrote:The reason the ref gave the yellow was he had warned England before about continuos infringment. You hear him after talking to the captain that is was another infringment and it left him no choice

So the only difference between the two, was England had been warned before that the next offence was a yellow, France had not.

However, that was before halftime and I think it was a harsh yellow - but that was the reasoning behind it

Under which law did he punish them for repeated infringement?

Go and read them... did Sharples repeatedly infringe? No.
Did the team repeatedly deliberatly knock on? No

There is no law under which you can issue a yellow for repeatedly infringing in different ways by a team. It has to either be for teh same offence by multiple poeple, or the same person infringing in repeated ways.

Now an England player should have been penalised for repeated infringments after the ruck as they did do this after they had been warned ( if that did constitute an official warning), but thats a differnet story

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