England SA tour 2012

First topic message reminder :

6 Nations nearly over...a decent effort from England.

Will they take a larger squad to give newer fringe players (Burns, May etc) a chance...?

How many is planned for the squad?

Now the question is...who would you take...and possibly more important...who would you give the summer off to rest/recover from injuries..ie Ben Youngs,

Im not sure Lawes is the answer for me. Whilst i would take him on tour I think other players are ahead of him. Parling and Kitchener as a lineout presence, and Garvey, Attwood and Slater as the more physical player.

Oi, that's quite enough stealing of Tigers second row forwards thank you very much. We would like some to be able to take part in pre season trainnig rather than resting the first couple of weeks because of international call ups!

Seriously I don't think Slater is ready for international rugby as an enforcer, as an 8 on hard ground, maybe if we were desperate. As an enforcer he needs to get that Deacon esque ability to be a pain at the breakdown and not get pinged thing down. He's made great strides this season but it's only his second year in fully professional rugby. Give another season and I think he'll start to look very much the international class player just not this summer. Likewise Kitchener is coming on leaps and bounds but there is a significant distance between what he can do in the Tigers second row and what Parling does week in week out. A potentially great lock pairing in a year or two that needs more club time together first.

I'd take Parling, Botha, Lawes, Garvey and Attwood. Outside of Kruger I'm not so worried about the Boks lineout forwards (now Matfield has retired) and all of those locks are decent at the lineout (Attwood is actually underrated in that area). We have backrowers to step in and help out as well, Wood being an excellent example (as said above I would rest Croft).

Ideally id love him to keep his game type now( aggreesive, hard tackling, high work rate who aint afraid to get stuck into the rucks)..but really makethe lineout his own.

Then we could play a monster alongside him..maybe Garvey...and also then Croft wouldnt be the luxury he "can be" ...although he has impressed me this 6n.

That would give us two excellent lineout options...and still two tough second rows...who have much to give around the park...and in close.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Im not sure Lawes is the answer for me. Whilst i would take him on tour I think other players are ahead of him. Parling and Kitchener as a lineout presence, and Garvey, Attwood and Slater as the more physical player.

Oi, that's quite enough stealing of Tigers second row forwards thank you very much. We would like some to be able to take part in pre season trainnig rather than resting the first couple of weeks because of international call ups!

Seriously I don't think Slater is ready for international rugby as an enforcer, as an 8 on hard ground, maybe if we were desperate. As an enforcer he needs to get that Deacon esque ability to be a pain at the breakdown and not get pinged thing down. He's made great strides this season but it's only his second year in fully professional rugby. Give another season and I think he'll start to look very much the international class player just not this summer. Likewise Kitchener is coming on leaps and bounds but there is a significant distance between what he can do in the Tigers second row and what Parling does week in week out. A potentially great lock pairing in a year or two that needs more club time together first.

I'd take Parling, Botha, Lawes, Garvey and Attwood. Outside of Kruger I'm not so worried about the Boks lineout forwards (now Matfield has retired) and all of those locks are decent at the lineout (Attwood is actually underrated in that area). We have backrowers to step in and help out as well, Wood being an excellent example (as said above I would rest Croft).

Aw go on then...you have made a good case....so you can keep them all..as long as we can have Parling....

I know that Garvey is classed as an enforcer, but hasn't he also lead the LI lineout a fair bit over the last couple of seasons during the quite long lasting Kennedy & Casey injuries?

I think Lawes is a real talent, and perhaps his best position is 6. For England though we just have too many backrowers to choose from. Don't forget Haskell is back next season.

For a first SA test i'd be tempted to try

4. Garvey
5. Parling
6. Lawes
7. Wood
8. Morgan

18. Attwood
19. Robshaw

That would be a pretty heavyweight and hard carrying back five to front up against a SA side that will likely include Willem Alberts, Andries Bekker, Schalk Berger etc etc..

If we're going to continue along the rest theme perhaps combine that with a front row of:

1. Mullan
2. George
3. Doran-Jones

16. T Youngs
17. Marler

That looks like a great pack and bench to me, providing some of them don't wilt up against The Beast and the DuPlessis brothers.

You know thats a pretty strong pack indeed....and Sam gets his wish of resting some key personnel aswell....

1. Mullan
2. George
3. Doran-Jones
4. Garvey
5. Parling
6. Lawes (Robshaw)
7. Wood
8. Morgan

The only change i would make is the one in Brackets...as i think his workrate, all round fitness and all round ability and tackling will be needed in SA.

Might be asking a lot of young Jamie George as he isn't even first choice at his yet! I'd start him in the mid week games if I was taking him and see how he faired there with a view to bringing him into the final test if required. Start with Gray or Paice someone with less potential but more experience and have the veteran on the bench.

Ah Sam wheres the faith...he's a big lump with a big powerful pack around him...and Rowntree to get him sorted...

Besides running around those hard grounds might lose a bit of the puppy fat

Mid week games are a good start for a 21 year old hooker. Particularly one that seems to be 3rd choice at his club. England are somewhat short of hookers and Webber's injury is a real blow as he was already familiar with the set up. I'd go Grey and Mears for the first test with Youngs and George for the mid week team. Maybe Paice ahead of Youngs and Hayward ahead of George depending on form. We want to give the younger guys experience not shatter their confidence too early.

Do we know what the mid week schedule is yet?
Do we get to see England A's play against some SuperRugby sides or will it be the Curry Cup/Provinces from the Lions tour.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Mid week games are a good start for a 21 year old hooker. Particularly one that seems to be 3rd choice at his club. England are somewhat short of hookers and Webber's injury is a real blow as he was already familiar with the set up. I'd go Grey and Mears for the first test with Youngs and George for the mid week team. Maybe Paice ahead of Youngs and Hayward ahead of George depending on form. We want to give the younger guys experience not shatter their confidence too early.

Of course I can see what you're driving at Sam, but giving we're talking about resting some players here we need to look at bringing in those with the best talent early. I agree a mid-week game would be the best place to start, but we only have around 38 international games (as I understand it) between now and the RWC. I know it seems a long way off, but i'd want my two test hookers to have around 100 caps between them and that means starting the brightest off early.

Haywood looked excellent before the injury but haven't seen him since. I'd like to see him in the tour party. I don't know about Mears, perhaps between those two he'd be ok but the Lions outing did him no favours. Paice I feel is past being able to develop and i'd rather have Chuter there than him to help with the young ones.

I know George is 3rd choice at Sarries, but he isn't a third choice hooker by a long stretch. Let's not forget who's in front of him and also that Smith has been playing prop recently so he's had exposure.

propdavid_london wrote:Do we know what the mid week schedule is yet?
Do we get to see England A's play against some SuperRugby sides or will it be the Curry Cup/Provinces from the Lions tour.

There are two confirmed midweek games against a SA Barbarian side.

Sam,

I completely accept what your saying that we should be careful about putting a 21 yr old who is not even 1st choice at his own club out...and ordinarily i wouldnt back the idea...

However i really dont feel happy going into a game with SA with Mears and (to a degree) Gray as our hookers. Whilst Gray is young and mobile so could be suited to the hard grounds...im not sure Mears can offer anything else or different and has not had the best of times down there in the past.

If Gray was to go as 1st choice due to his experience in HEC games etc so be it...but i would rather a young inexperienced bruiser than Mears.....the experience for him would be absolutely invaluable....

Can we not talk of resting players? If we send a week team down there and get humped by 30/40 points then it won't do anyone any good. Strongest available teams, rests only to be given in exceptional circumstances - not as a blanket policy.

Robbo...the hooker debate is incase Hartley is banned for the tour. We are distinctly light on top standard replacements...

But there is talk of resting Cole, Croft, Youngs (must be by Leicester fans!) when I think we need to take our strongest guys out there and look to get a result.

If Hartley is available I'd have him as first choice hooker in a heartbeat. If not then I'm struggling with Webber injured. Not a massive Mears fan (wouldn't mind him on the bench), but Youngs, Lyndsay and George all seem a bit green for me. George would definitely tour if I was in charge, probably with Youngs, regardless of whether Hartley is available or not. If he isn't, then we've still got 2 months of rugby to come to a decision, but god help us!

I seriously can't see us resting players. This talk of a second string just won't happen, unless players are injured/banned they'll tour.

But there is talk of resting Cole, Croft, Youngs (must be by Leicester fans!) when I think we need to take our strongest guys out there and look to get a result

I proposed resting players that had played 3 or more games in both the RWC and the 6N. Allowing them a proper rest and then an actual full pre season will see them all fit and hopefully in form come the AIs and the 6N add to that we'll have more than a handful of capped players to choose from.

Can we not talk of resting players? If we send a week team down there and get humped by 30/40 points then it won't do anyone any good.

Even with the players rested on the proviso above we could still field:

1.Mullan/Marler
2.Webber if fit, if not then Gray
3.PDJ
4.Botha
5.Parling
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Morgan
9.Dickson
10.Flood/Farrell
11.Sharples
12.Barritt
13.Trinder
14.Strettle
15.Brown

Bench: Mears/George/Youngs/whoever, Wilson (covers both sides), Lawes, Seymour, Care, Flood/Farrell, Lowe.

Hardly a weak team. As already discussed it gives experience to players in positions where we really only have one or two options. How many experienced full backs do we have outside Foden? How many tighthead props outside Cole have more than 10 caps?

Don't send a weak side but develop the squad!

sam,

"1.Mullan/Marler
2.Webber if fit, if not then Gray
3.PDJ
4.Botha
5.Parling
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Morgan
9.Dickson
10.Flood/Farrell
11.Sharples
12.Barritt
13.Trinder
14.Strettle
15.Brown

Bench: Mears/George/Youngs/whoever, Wilson (covers both sides), Lawes, Seymour, Care, Flood/Farrell, Lowe.

Hardly
a weak team. As already discussed it gives experience to players in
positions where we really only have one or two options. How many
experienced full backs do we have outside Foden? How many tighthead
props outside Cole have more than 10 caps? "

Hmm. In South Africa?

Or another Tour of Hell.?

I think that team is stronger than that sent on the tour of hell though Portnoy...

It's a tad weak at hooker but our options there are low anyway. PDJ and Mullan are both hard workers in the loose and excellent in the scrum. Marler is excellent in the loose and improving in the scrum. The second row was good enough for the entire six nations and provides a lineout specialist to take on Kruger. The backrow has another lineout specialist as well as a natural breakdown scrapper, tackle merchant and meaty ball carrying 8. They look well equiped for what will be thrown at them.

The half backs will do alright as Farrell has the tactical kicking and defensive presence that won't set the world alight but is very consistent. Flood will get the pacy backline moving. There's plenty of defensive strength in the likes of Barritt and Brown with Brown providing a left footed cannon when we need it.

Couple of worries around the hooker and as to whether Trinder will hold up defensively but we have to test players eventually. There's caps on the bench and options to add extra bulk in Lawes and Lowe as well as extra dog in Seymour. If we wanted more pace and power available to the backrow we could call up Johnson from the Chiefs.

robbo277 wrote:Can we not talk of resting players? If we send a week team down there and get humped by 30/40 points then it won't do anyone any good. Strongest available teams, rests only to be given in exceptional circumstances - not as a blanket policy.

I originally was also of the view that all first XV players should tour. In point of fact I don't think any will actually be rested, but Sam has convinced me that resting those who have been heavily involved at RWC and 6N should get a proper pre-season.

What we have to bear in mind here is not just the extreme effort that has had to be put in at RWC but also the 6N and regualr season. If you top that off with a full SA tour (very tough) then the AIs, then a full 6N and finally a Lions series next year it's almost non-stop top flight rugby for some of these guys and it's overkill. We all need proper rest to perform to the top of our abilities consistently, if that's not provided for it's a) risky from an injury perspective and b) contributes to mental fatigue and a loss of form.

The resting has the added bonus of developing the more inexperience members of the squad and actually adding some strength in depth as Geordie and Sam rightly pointed out.

After Cole who would you want as TH at full test level? Surely no Stevens at present?

Hartley is another classic example, there are NO players who've had more than a couple of caps who you'd want to start an international test at present.

FB is another area. Indeed it's only really at SH and FH that we have any genuine 'depth'.

Broadly I think it's a good team SAM. I wouldn't call on Lowe to add extra 'bulk' though!

I would change Botha for either Attwood/Lawes/Garvey, I can't see him developing a future test career building to 2015. He's currently 30 and will be 33/34 when the RWC comes around. I don't really see him in the Simon Shaw mould, and think we'd be better developing some further depth in the enforcer department.

Other than that I can't really complain, most of the more junior members will get mid-week games - Burns for example. Will also be interesting to see what having a real pacy visionary at 13 will do for the attacking make up of the team.

I'd love to see young May given a few minutes in the midweek team to see how his pace goes on the veldt....

Blistering I should think!

Broadly I think it's a good team SAM. I wouldn't call on Lowe to add extra 'bulk' though!

I was thinking that he's good in contact and tends not to miss his tackles.

I would change Botha for either Attwood/Lawes/Garvey, I can't see him developing a future test career building to 2015. He's currently 30 and will be 33/34 when the RWC comes around. I don't really see him in the Simon Shaw mould, and think we'd be better developing some further depth in the enforcer department

I don't believe in building for the next RWC as I think that type of planning ends up looking stupid as players form, bolters and injuries make mockery of such long term estimations. Build for now, get a squad together that has caps, that knows the system and that can play together. The issues we've had recently have been based around us only having 15 who can do that we need 30 to 40 who can do that.

I'm no fan of Botha but he did alright in the 6N and I'd keep him in their to try and maintain some continuity as that way half the pack is the same as that which started against Ireland. There's been a lot of talk about earning the shirt so I'd give the other locks the mid week games to try and wrestle the shirt off of Botha. He may start the first test but there's no guarentee he'll start the last one.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Broadly I think it's a good team SAM. I wouldn't call on Lowe to add extra 'bulk' though!

I was thinking that he's good in contact and tends not to miss his tackles.

I would change Botha for either Attwood/Lawes/Garvey, I can't see him developing a future test career building to 2015. He's currently 30 and will be 33/34 when the RWC comes around. I don't really see him in the Simon Shaw mould, and think we'd be better developing some further depth in the enforcer department

I don't believe in building for the next RWC as I think that type of planning ends up looking stupid as players form, bolters and injuries make mockery of such long term estimations. Build for now, get a squad together that has caps, that knows the system and that can play together. The issues we've had recently have been based around us only having 15 who can do that we need 30 to 40 who can do that.

I'm no fan of Botha but he did alright in the 6N and I'd keep him in their to try and maintain some continuity as that way half the pack is the same as that which started against Ireland. There's been a lot of talk about earning the shirt so I'd give the other locks the mid week games to try and wrestle the shirt off of Botha. He may start the first test but there's no guarentee he'll start the last one.

I think this is a crcuial point Sam.

Its about here and now...winning the next few games....with a settled team and developing as you go constantly and consistantly. Evolution.

The reason this paticular set up has done a revolution is due to lack of planning from as far back as Woodward....with only Johno really beginning the development process again...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Broadly I think it's a good team SAM. I wouldn't call on Lowe to add extra 'bulk' though!

I was thinking that he's good in contact and tends not to miss his tackles.

I would change Botha for either Attwood/Lawes/Garvey, I can't see him developing a future test career building to 2015. He's currently 30 and will be 33/34 when the RWC comes around. I don't really see him in the Simon Shaw mould, and think we'd be better developing some further depth in the enforcer department

I don't believe in building for the next RWC as I think that type of planning ends up looking stupid as players form, bolters and injuries make mockery of such long term estimations. Build for now, get a squad together that has caps, that knows the system and that can play together. The issues we've had recently have been based around us only having 15 who can do that we need 30 to 40 who can do that.

I'm no fan of Botha but he did alright in the 6N and I'd keep him in their to try and maintain some continuity as that way half the pack is the same as that which started against Ireland. There's been a lot of talk about earning the shirt so I'd give the other locks the mid week games to try and wrestle the shirt off of Botha. He may start the first test but there's no guarentee he'll start the last one.

I think this is a crcuial point Sam.

Its about here and now...winning the next few games....with a settled team and developing as you go constantly and consistantly. Evolution.

The reason this paticular set up has done a revolution is due to lack of planning from as far back as Woodward....with only Johno really beginning the development process again...

I get fed up of this 'building for xxxx World Cup' etc, I too believe we should be out to win every game. Saying that, I do believe in building up depth in each playing position. With the playing resources England have (and considering the tough nature of our domestic game), I believe we should be trying to find two, possibly three players who can slot into each position without causing disruption to the overall team. This requires game time. It’s why I think taking a big squad with first teamers included to S.A. is a good idea, bring the fringe lads in from the bench and in the midweek games, whilst keeping a good core. Let the lads rack up the caps that way

Then we're all pretty much agreed. Whether you call it building a squad or building towards xxx RWC it doesn't really matter. What it's about is creating a depth of players with vital experience who know how to win.

The reason I frame it in that context is twofold: 1. Lancaster himself said 'I have identified a group of players to take us into RWC 2015' and 2. That competition is the most significant in the rugby sporting calendar. Particularly given it is within our own country.

The method by which you get there are the same whether you frame it in that context or not. I have never said that results can be sacrificed in favour of 'building'; and undoubtedly the best way to do that is within a winning side.

Well Hartley is free to travel...

That changes things considerably. No need to take Chuter or Mears.

Hartley, George, Youngs?
Or
Hartley, Gray, George / Youngs?

we have to take strongest team to sa:
1.corbiesro
2.hartley
3.cole
4.botha
5.parling
6.croft
7.wood
8.robshaw
9.youngs
10.farrell
11.sharples
12.barritt
13.tuilagi
14.may
15.foden

16.gray
17.marler
18.lawes
19.morgan
20.simpson
21.flood
22.homer

mid week team

1.marler
2.george
3.pdj
4.garvey
5.attlewood
6.launcbury
7.armitage
8.fearns
9.spencer
10.burns
11.strettle
12.twelvetrees
13.trinder
14.joseph
15.brown

16.mears
17.wood
18.robson
19.wallace
20.dickson
21.ford
22.goode
6.

Hopefully Hartley brings his gum guard with.

Biltong: nice one !

Do you think they will rest players who have been involved in the WC and 6n...or do you think they'll go full strength?

Yeah - I know we keep saying we need more dog in the team.....

Do you think he just misunderstood?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think they will rest players who have been involved in the WC and 6n...or do you think they'll go full strength?

They must bring their strongest team.

Yeah i think thats the feeling amongst the fans that we have to take our strongest...well maybe Sam excepted..

I'm of the opinion that knackering out our best players by not giving them a proper break (those that players extensively in the 6N and RWC) and allowing them a full pre season is not good for the long term fitness of our first team. Similarly those players who played in both RWC and 6N extensively are exactly the players we lack experienced cover for (it's not like there aren't options). A squad needs to be developed rather than the usual first team.

Admittedly Hartley might have to go purely because we have so little hooker cover but the likes of Corbisiero and Cole who have played so much rugby should be rested.

We could still field a first team of:

1.Mullan
2.Hartley - because Webber is injured we have to take him
3.PDJ
4.Botha
5.Parling
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Morgan
9.Dickson
10.Flood
11.Sharples
12.Barritt
13.Trinder/Lowe
14.Strettle
15.Brown

Hardly weak.

So lets see...:

1 Corbs 2 Hartley 3 Cole
4 Garvey 5 Parling
6 Croft 8 Morgan 7 Robshaw
9 Youngs 10 Flood 12 Barritt 13 Tuilagi
11 Strettle 15 Foden 14 Ashton

16 PDJ 17 Gray/George 18 Lawes 19 Farrell 20 Brown 21 Sharples 22 Wood

The midweek team will be interesting....pretty much a saxons i guess...

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm of the opinion that knackering out our best players by not giving them a proper break (those that players extensively in the 6N and RWC) and allowing them a full pre season is not good for the long term fitness of our first team. Similarly those players who played in both RWC and 6N extensively are exactly the players we lack experienced cover for (it's not like there aren't options). A squad needs to be developed rather than the usual first team.

Admittedly Hartley might have to go purely because we have so little hooker cover but the likes of Corbisiero and Cole who have played so much rugby should be rested.

We could still field a first team of:

1.Mullan
2.Hartley - because Webber is injured we have to take him
3.PDJ
4.Botha
5.Parling
6.Robshaw
7.Wood
8.Morgan
9.Dickson
10.Flood
11.Sharples
12.Barritt
13.Trinder/Lowe
14.Strettle
15.Brown

Hardly weak.

Actually yes thats still a strong side...

Is Botha really the best 4 in england?

Is Botha really the best 4 in england?

No Matt Garvey is the one people think should be in there...and there are a few others coming through aswell.

I'd much prefer to take Attwood over Botha when he's firing on all cylinders

However in his defence Bothas work rate has been second to none...and the pack have been more solid than the past few years specifically at the break down....though i suspect this is more down to Rowntrees input...

Agreed Geordie

Garvey's my preference - has the MJ intimidatory presence.

Is Botha really the best 4 in england?

No, but he played well and put his body on the line during the 6N. Hence it should be his shirt to lose in the summer internationals. Let him play the first game and if someone else produces more in one of the mid week games then they get the nod over him. If Botha is performing better than the competition he keeps the shirt.

Think Botha will definitely be 'motivated' for a return to SA after he was deemed not good enough. Think we could probably do better at 4 though.

If ENG do not take and field their best XV possible they will get smashed in all 3 games.. the losses will take long to recover from in terms of mentality wise and it will take away the chance for some ENG players to match themselves against some of the best players in the world and see where they are.

Perform well, win a game etc and the benefits to the squad will last years.

A chance to compete and perhaps beat the boks in their own yard should never be passed up. Its not like they have a world cup in a month or so.

In terms of Botha... I still don't understand how he agreed to play for ENG... Mike Catt, Barritt.. they're all englishman by blood, culture, language etc.... Botha is a Boer... seeing himm field against the boks would be like Neil Lennon agreeing to manage Rangers.

Just because he was deemed not good enough by SA doesn't mean he stops being a Boer. It will be very odd to see him take the field against SA.

Maybe he will be motivated to make a point to the coaches who dismissed him saying he was never going to make it. Although when he left he was struggling to make the Boland Currie Cup squad and in the one position where ACI candidates are non existant so it wouldn't be for any other reason than him being less as good as the men who were being selected above him.

I read here a couple of days ago that he has been in England for quite a few years and worked his way up.

When did any coaches here say he isn't good enough?

He started at a pretty low level in England and I think Sarries signed him from Rotherham or Bedford (one of the two). You could argue a good chunk of his rugby development has happened in England.

His ability to speak Afrikaan might be useful when it comes to decoding the Bok set plays (Ben Kay learnt the language to accomplish similar).

formerly known as Sam wrote:He started at a pretty low level in England and I think Sarries signed him from Rotherham or Bedford (one of the two). You could argue a good chunk of his rugby development has happened in England.

His ability to speak Afrikaan might be useful when it comes to decoding the Bok set plays (Ben Kay learnt the language to accomplish similar).

Yeah, i saw that on another thread, but I put that theory to bed, we have eleven different languages and chiliboy is the language guy.