SCRUM SHALVES - Greatest XV Ever - voted by 606v2

First topic message reminder :

Same thing again for 9s. Tell me if I've missed someone. If I have it's not a WUM. If you think a player shouldn't be on the list, say by all means but you do not have to vote for them! There will a mix of classic and modern players. For players currently playing assume I mean at their best

Hard to see past Gareth on this one the complete rugby player I can just see him tormenting opposition forwards with his kicks to the corner down the touchline without mentioning all the rest the hands like shovels the low centre of gravity the pass the unexpected bursts of speed and so on . Honourable mention to Joost but I don't think he quite had the whole armoury that Gareth had.

Rupert Moon on the list but not Robert Jones ? Moon for all his positive personality attributes couldn't get near the Lions unlike Jones whose legendary set to with that other great Jones Nick Farr quite literally kicked off the 1989 second test come back in Australia.

pontylad wrote:Hard to see past Gareth on this one the complete rugby player I can just see him tormenting opposition forwards with his kicks to the corner down the touchline without mentioning all the rest the hands like shovels the low centre of gravity the pass the unexpected burtss of speed and so on . Honourable mention to Joost but I don't think he quite had the whole armoury that Gareth had.

Rupert Moon on the list but not Robert Jones ? Moon for all his positive personality attributes couldn't get near the Lions unlike Jones whose legendary set to with that other great Jones Nick Farr quite literally kicked off the 1989 second test come back in Australia.

I added Moon becasue someone asked me to. I'm pretty sure I never saw him play.

To be fair, I absoltuely love Rupert Moon, but he shouldn't be in the list over Rob Jones, not by a long shot! But, each to their own

RubyGuby wrote:

HERSH wrote:Where is Andy Gomarsall MBE?

He's training with Dings Crusaders - How's the Rangey

On a container ship going to Russia or Nigeria I expect!

I went for Joost who was the best I ever saw play. Too young for Edwards, so didn't feel right voting for him, but if he's as good as everyone says he is he deserves it. Always felt Kieran Bracken was vastly underrated too, best delivery in the game in his time, but Dawson was a bigger threat around the fringes and generally "bossed" games better so England preferred him. Certainly Bracken deserves to be on that list ahead of names like Genia, Phillips and Parra IMO.

Concerning Moon no problems everyone has their favourites ,Walsall born and bred he was also probably the most one eyed commentator ever on Welsh games and I believe becoming Welsh language learner of the year so certainly throwing his lot in with his adopted country.

On Robert Jones had to find that Lions clip here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Z2m6DgwQ4 now how many cards would that little lot get these days !

How on earth are people like Piri Weepu, Mike Phillips, Greg Laidlaw and Mike Blair (I am sure there are others that I have missed) on a list to find the the best scrum half of all time.

For each of them there is a massive question mark as to whether they are even the best scrum half in their national squad at present.

Daft.

I can't even remember back how players played 10 years ago, how do you hold on to memories vivid enough to convince you a player of 30 odd years ago was the best, becuse of a Lions tour in the seventies and a great try?

biltongbek wrote:I can't even remember back how players played 10 years ago, how do you hold on to memories vivid enough to convince you a player of 30 odd years ago was the best, becuse of a Lions tour in the seventies and a great try?

Ginko Bilobo and clean living

Ozzy3213 wrote:How on earth are people like Piri Weepu, Mike Phillips, Greg Laidlaw and Mike Blair (I am sure there are others that I have missed) on a list to find the the best scrum half of all time.

For each of them there is a massive question mark as to whether they are even the best scrum half in their national squad at present.

Daft.

Greg Laidlaw is not on that list, btw. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Laidlaw

I would argue that Johnny Wilkinson, when he was last playing for England, was not the best English 10 at that time. That should not detract from his candidacy for best 10 ever. I made that clear in the OP. Piri was on the list because he won a World Cup and has been up for IRB player of the year several times. I acknowledge this may be inconsistent because I did not put some RWC winners in the 10, 12 and 13 categories. But I objectively believe that, whilst I certainly do not view them as the best 9s ever or even in this generation, the arguments for Phillips and Blair a few years ago are very valid

Gareth Edwards was uniquely talented - athlete (long jump, pole vault, discuss, hurdles - set a schools hurdle record while at Millfield that lasted 30-odd years), gymnast, strong as an ox, was offered professional football terms, great rugby skills, great rugby brain too.

The bestof the rest (having seen pretty much everyone on that list) for me is Joost vdW, a truly great player.

Oh my goodness, I see 5% have voted for Matt Dawson!!! I mean, seriously guys. Decent guy, good rugby player (not a great scrum half though), but....

Howley - pace, skill, strength, kept Dawson out of the 97 Lions.

Is Peter Stringer on the list?

Nope though if you put Other then say you are voting for him in a post then I'll count it as Stringer

Dawson is my favourite on the list
Troncon should be in there (was so influential in the Italian team)

Outsider - to encourage debate (A. Healy)

propdavid_london wrote:Outsider - to encourage debate (A. Healy)

Troncon was great.

Imagine if Italy have had Dominguez, Troncon and Parisse all in the same team!

It's Gareth Edwards for me. As a Cardiff fan, I remember the buzz about 'this kid Edwards' before he joined the club in about 1966. From then until retirement in 1978 he very rarely disappointed for Cardiff, Wales, the Lions and, of course, the Barbarians.

In terms of rugby skills he could do just about everything. But his greatest attributes were game awareness and game control. As Edwards's career progressed everyone, including all the top players, knew about those qualities before matches began, yet so often couldn't cope with them.

TycroesOsprey wrote:his strike rate of about 1 in 2 games is rivalled by Edwards with I think 23 tries in about 50 caps.

Thats a fantastic rate for that era. By 1977 our highest was 16 by Ian Kirkpatrick with 10 being our second highest- very low rate compared to today's standards... sometimes I wonder what our players did on the field for the 80 minutes...

Taylorman wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:his strike rate of about 1 in 2 games is rivalled by Edwards with I think 23 tries in about 50 caps.

Thats a fantastic rate for that era. By 1977 our highest was 16 by Ian Kirkpatrick with 10 being our second highest- very low rate compared to today's standards... sometimes I wonder what our players did on the field for the 80 minutes...

Well Ive been watching a few of the scrum V classics recently and I think people were still scoring tries but with fewer games people got a lot less caps, how many caps did kirkpatrick get. There also wasnt the games against the minnows taht we have today to rack up the tries. I remember Wales beating Japan 66-6 and that was a unheard of score at the time.

The biggest thing Ive noticed from the old matches is just how quickly the scrums were set and the ball put in. ITs almost rugby leaguesque so they werent wasting time with constant resets.

I think this thread should be restarted, and entitled "SCRUM SHALVES - Greatest XV Ever - voted by 606v2 - Gareth Edwards Excepted"

Gareth Edwards is in the pantheon of Rugby immortals. But I only saw him play when I was young, so I would prefer to exclude him from the list. And I bet most people here barely saw him play when young and many not at all. Of course I have to vote for him if he is there.

Well put bluntly Doc Edwards was simply THE best player to come out of the NH and in a SH picked world xv would probably win the halfback vote hands down, although Joost or Nick Farr Jones would be a very close second- in my opinion.

Don't know about other SH posters but if there's a NH player that would make the best xv say since Edwards day- who would that (or they) be?

Sella and Blanco come to mind...

Gary Armstrong

the hardest, the toughest, the bravest, the best,

No fancy pants trickery - just good honest graft. Never a backwards step but still a nice guy. You won't find anyone with a bad word to say about him. Played the game how it should be played.

Taylorman wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:his strike rate of about 1 in 2 games is rivalled by Edwards with I think 23 tries in about 50 caps.

Thats a fantastic rate for that era. By 1977 our highest was 16 by Ian Kirkpatrick with 10 being our second highest- very low rate compared to today's standards... sometimes I wonder what our players did on the field for the 80 minutes...

A couple of points to ponder about Edwards's excellent total of 20 tries, in 53 consecutive games for Wales, are :
1) He would possibly have attempted, and scored, a few more tries but for the great try-scoring abilities of backs outside him - including at various times Barry John, Phil Bennett, Steve Fenwick, Ray Gravelle, John Dawes, Maurice Richards, Keith Jarrett, John Dawes, John Bevan, Gerald Davies, J J Williams, with JPR coming into the line.
2) An Edwards try was often the game-breaker, either just before half-time or the start of a dominant period of play when Wales built a winning lead.

Joost for me.

Simply top drawer.

Edwards and Going close seconds.

optimist wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:his strike rate of about 1 in 2 games is rivalled by Edwards with I think 23 tries in about 50 caps.

Thats a fantastic rate for that era. By 1977 our highest was 16 by Ian Kirkpatrick with 10 being our second highest- very low rate compared to today's standards... sometimes I wonder what our players did on the field for the 80 minutes...

A couple of points to ponder about Edwards's excellent total of 20 tries, in 53 consecutive games for Wales, are :
1) He would possibly have attempted, and scored, a few more tries but for the great try-scoring abilities of backs outside him - including at various times Barry John, Phil Bennett, Steve Fenwick, Ray Gravelle, John Dawes, Maurice Richards, Keith Jarrett, John Dawes, John Bevan, Gerald Davies, J J Williams, with JPR coming into the line.
2) An Edwards try was often the game-breaker, either just before half-time or the start of a dominant period of play when Wales built a winning lead.

Have to admit quite amazing to have all those players in the one backline at the same time...

Taylorman wrote:Have to admit quite amazing to have all those players in the one backline at the same time...

Yeah, would have loved to see them all in their prime at a time when I was really old enough to appreciate them game in and game out.

Gary Armstrong was a great player too. Cursed by injuries but a superb scrum half. Strongest tackling nine I have ever seen.

Good call Armstrong - Terry Holmes was another beast that went North - Dave Loveridge for me was the classiest scrum half New Zealand ever had.

I'm not surprised at the top two, but I am surprised that the most capped player of all time (139 times for Oz) hasn't got more votes than some of the other players.

Having said that, my favourite in recent years has been JBE.

DesConnor,Chris Laidlaw ,Dave Loveridge in that order,Des Connor the best i`ve seen.Gareth Edwards learn`t his passing technique from Laidlaw.
Gareth Edwards was a member of THE worse team to tour NZ 1969[yes THE great Welsh team]according to Sir Terry Mclean[read "RED DEVILS OF WALES" by him.

Rugby players are not born fully-formed, they all learn from others. The weakest part of Edwards's game when he started was his passing and he learned better technique from watching Laidlaw - so what? Who did Laidlaw learn from - nobody?

The Welsh team that toured NZ in 1969 was let down by the pack, which couldn't stand the heat from the All Black forwards. Note that Wales didn't lose any provincial games, it was the All Black as a unit that did the damage in both tests when the half-backs, Edwards and John, had little chance to impress going backwards. At least 4 of the first-choice Welsh pack were discarded by the selectors when they got home.

The 1969 tour, humiliating for Wales and a wake-up call which led to a more hard-nosed approach, took place 2 years into Edwards's international career. But he played for another 9 years, which was the period that saw his greatest successes and confirmed his rugby status.

Ironically perhaps as a NH player, he perfected the long range rolling touchfinder after the IRB adopted the so-called Australian dispensation in about 1969. It was an effective way of dealing with opposition packs - send them 40/50 metres backwards.

Edwards by a Royal Mile. There is a DVD all about Gareth which is called ...GARETH! Could have represented wales in the Commonwealth Games in the long jump & hurdles and GB in the long jump and hurdles! As staed couldhave signed professional for Swansea in football (before they were a city).

I bought the DVD in New Zealand so not quite a Welsh only DVD either. Not seen a DVD for any other Scrum Half yet? Tells a story.

Not seen a DVD for any other Scrum Half yet? Tells a story.

Woodstock, you certainly do make me chuckle. Perhaps nobody has bothered to make a dvd out of the others, but if you go onto youtube you will find a clip of all Joost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4EQaOdoaUY

Yep. Some legends are meant to be. Edwards is indeed that.

biltongbek wrote:

Not seen a DVD for any other Scrum Half yet? Tells a story.

Woodstock, you certainly do make me chuckle. Perhaps nobody has bothered to make a dvd out of the others, but if you go onto youtube you will find a clip of all Joost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4EQaOdoaUY

The mod teying to wind up posters he don't like, you got to love him for it!!

The DVD entitled GARETH is a complete DVD made in 2007, not just little clips put on a site where anything goes. Keep up.

Description

Release Date: 06 August 2007

Gareth Edwards is the greatest player the world has ever seen, and in this official video, told in Gareth's own words, we see exactly why.

Gareth was still a student in 1967 when he gained his first Welsh cap in a match against France. This was to be the start of a run of 53 consecutive international appearances, thirteen of which he captained - a record for a scrum-half.

During Gareth's exceptional career Wales enjoyed a glorious spell of success, notching up seven Championships, five Triple Crowns and three Grand Slams. He also scored what has become acknowledged as the game's greatest ever try when appearing for the Barbarians in 1973.

This comprehensive look at Gareth's career also captures his three Lion's tours, South Africa in 1968 and the incredible teams of New Zealand '71 (the Lions' first ever series victory against New Zealand) and South Africa '74.

Interspersed with interviews from the likes of Dai Watkins, Clive Rowlands, Robert Jones and historian Dai Smith, and featuring incredible memorabilia from Gareth's personal collection this video will be watched by Welshmen and rugby lovers all over the world.

I would have Graham Bachop over Kelleher or Marshall. I really think he is one of the most underrated ABs ever to have played the game. He had a lightning pass, could attack the fringes, had a good kicking game and acted like a lossie on defence. How we cry out for someone with that repetoire now.

That saying, I wouldn´t vote for him as the Greatest. Halfback has never been our strengths. Sid Going is often talked about but in the modern game it´s difficult to make comparisons. That said he and Edwards are true legends of the game (although Edwards obviously a bigger one) and legends deserve recognition regardless of whether they played in the amateur era or not.

That said, the halfbacks that stand out for me that I have seen are van der Westhuizen and Gregan. Different players but greats of the game. Gregan was a small deodorant stick of Rexona Sport but had an ability to make game changing tackles like the one on Goldie that defied belief for such a small guy. His partnership with Larkham in particular stands out as good as any halves combination in the game in my opinion. If I were to choose between the two I would go for Joost, despite his obvious criticisms of selfishness etc to me his pace was something I would cry out for in the ABs. Imagine someone with that amount of pace providing for the AB backline. It saddens me we don´t have that kind of player.

I do find it noble of Kiwi's to regard Gregan as anything after the 4 year jibe lol I would certainly give him 3ed best after Gareth and Sid. In essence there is noone to compare with these three in my humble opinion.

We got our revenge for that Woodstock last year in the semi. I think most Kiwis though recognise class and pay their respect to players who exhibit that class. You don't get more than 100 games for the Aussies being a mug. Gregan was a richer man´s version of Stringer. Always yapping away, tactically sound and destructive on defence for being often the littlest guy on the field.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:We got our revenge for that Woodstock last year in the semi. I think most Kiwis though recognise class and pay their respect to players who exhibit that class. You don't get more than 100 games for the Aussies being a mug. Gregan was a richer man´s version of Stringer. Always yapping away, tactically sound and destructive on defence for being often the littlest guy on the field.

Totally agree and because of that he was a completely different player to Edwards who possibly never even got a warning off a ref in his career! Both hugely exciting players to watch and both could change a game in the blink of an eye.

Yeah I have no qualms with Edwards being hailed the best. Like Colin Meads, regardless of the era, some players had an aura about them that was fully deserved regardless of who they faced up against. Class is class and it´s timeless.

If you're looking for an English scrum-half you could go with a Northampton Old Boy, but it's not Dawson it's Dickie Jeeps.
From what i can remember reading about him only Willie-John played more times for the Lions and both the New Zealanders and South Africans really rated him.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yeah I have no qualms with Edwards being hailed the best. Like Colin Meads, regardless of the era, some players had an aura about them that was fully deserved regardless of who they faced up against. Class is class and it´s timeless.

Now that's another story, to me Pinetree WAS the greatest player ever not Gareth and I find it easy as a Welshman to say that, Gareth was deffo 2nd mind. He is my ultimate hero in rugby and I was almost in tears when I met him in Hamilton a few years ago after the Welsh game. I was sat two seats from him at the game. Down to earth Kiwi and none better than that in my book, has the highest regard for Wales and it has been said a few times it was his fav country to play in. Always said to drop in if I was in Te Kuiti and he would sign my Meads books. My all time hero since a schoolboy

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I would have Graham Bachop over Kelleher or Marshall. I really think he is one of the most underrated ABs ever to have played the game. He had a lightning pass, could attack the fringes, had a good kicking game and acted like a lossie on defence. How we cry out for someone with that repetoire now.

That saying, I wouldn´t vote for him as the Greatest. Halfback has never been our strengths. Sid Going is often talked about but in the modern game it´s difficult to make comparisons. That said he and Edwards are true legends of the game (although Edwards obviously a bigger one) and legends deserve recognition regardless of whether they played in the amateur era or not.

That said, the halfbacks that stand out for me that I have seen are van der Westhuizen and Gregan. Different players but greats of the game. Gregan was a small deodorant stick of Rexona Sport but had an ability to make game changing tackles like the one on Goldie that defied belief for such a small guy. His partnership with Larkham in particular stands out as good as any halves combination in the game in my opinion. If I were to choose between the two I would go for Joost, despite his obvious criticisms of selfishness etc to me his pace was something I would cry out for in the ABs. Imagine someone with that amount of pace providing for the AB backline. It saddens me we don´t have that kind of player.

That's why Bachop was an option!

Anyway, looks like it is clearly Edwards with Joost on the bench. If HERSH doesn't want to continue I'll post an 8s one later, if he does he can have the thread back

Woodstock wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:We got our revenge for that Woodstock last year in the semi. I think most Kiwis though recognise class and pay their respect to players who exhibit that class. You don't get more than 100 games for the Aussies being a mug. Gregan was a richer man´s version of Stringer. Always yapping away, tactically sound and destructive on defence for being often the littlest guy on the field.

Totally agree and because of that he was a completely different player to Edwards who possibly never even got a warning off a ref in his career! Both hugely exciting players to watch and both could change a game in the blink of an eye.

I don't know about a warning from the ref, but I saw Edwards pinged quite a few times for Cardiff and Wales for not putting the ball in straight, which rarely happens these days - the pinging not the crooked feed! MOORE's the pity - sorry, couldn't resist that!

Well done Chequeredn Jersey!

When I said the best Woodstock, I meant as scrum half. Pine Tree is a later thread no doubt. I don´t think you can ever say a player is the best player full stop. It´s hard enough to agree on one position! Glad you got to meet your hero. We like our heroes in NZ to be humble, down to earth people. Pity some of our fans are not the same way, though I must say you get the better part of the spread generally on this site.

I can never think of Meads as a true great after he thumped 10-stone Dai Watkins. The Kiwis that really stand out to me tend to be the back-rowers, Ian Kirkpatrick and the like. Terrifying people.

Modern era nothern hemisphere greats: Sella must be up there, BOD, Ieuan Evans (stuffed by being in a poor team, but what a player), Richard Hill.

That got me thinking - a Lions 3/4 line of Scott Gibbs, BOD, Ieuan Evans and Jason Robinson - try and stop that lot scoring!

BlueNote wrote:I can never think of Meads as a true great after he thumped 10-stone Dai Watkins. The Kiwis that really stand out to me tend to be the back-rowers, Ian Kirkpatrick and the like. Terrifying people.

Modern era nothern hemisphere greats: Sella must be up there, BOD, Ieuan Evans (stuffed by being in a poor team, but what a player), Richard Hill.

That got me thinking - a Lions 3/4 line of Scott Gibbs, BOD, Ieuan Evans and Jason Robinson - try and stop that lot scoring!

Yes Meads had form also ending the career of another scrum half great Ken Catchpole mentioned above wrenching his hamstring off the bone when Catchpole was trapped in a ruck . Should drop him down a notch or two in the pantheon of greats .