Scotland - What the numbers show

Without wishing to start another vitriol squirting match about the use of statistics to assess how good players are, I just wanted to set out a few player statistics for the tournament (courtesy of the Telegraph):

1. Lineouts won on own throw
1 Richie Gray Scotland 19
1 Ian Evans Wales 19
3 Tom Croft England 17

2. Offloads
1 Julien Malzieu France 11
2 Ross Rennie Scotland 8
2 Sean Lamont Scotland 8
4 Louis Picamoles France 6
4 Mike Phillips Wales 6
6 Dave Denton Scotland 5
6 Richie Gray Scotland 5

3. Clean Breaks
1 Alex Cuthbert Wales 7
2 Stuart Hogg Scotland 6
2 Robert Kearney Ireland 6

4. Defenders Beaten
1 Wesley Fofana France 16
2 Robert Kearney Ireland 15
2 George North Wales 15
4 Alex Cuthbert Wales 14
5 Leigh Halfpenny Wales 11
6 Dave Denton Scotland 9
6 Toby Faletau Wales 9
8 Stuart Hogg Scotland 8

5. Carries
1 Dave Denton Scotland 65
2 Toby Faletau Wales 59
2 Sean Lamont Scotland 59

6. Metres
1 Andrea Masi Italy 451
2 Robert Kearney Ireland 448
3 Ben Foden England 347
4 Stuart Hogg Scotland 300

7. Tackles
1 Thierry Dusautoir France 72
2 Ross Rennie Scotland 68
3 Stephen Ferris Ireland 59

8. Team Turnovers
1 Italy 82
2 France 79
3 Scotland 70
4 Ireland 65
5 England 64
6 Wales 56

9. Team Carries
1 Scotland 644
2 Wales 593
3 France 499
4 Ireland 465
4 Italy 465
6 England 389

10. Team Offloads
1 Scotland 63
2 France 51
3 Italy 31
4 Wales 30
5 Ireland 29
6 England 21


I'd like posters' thoughts (particularly those who still think that Robinson should stay) on whether they also think that these numbers tend to show (amongst other things) that the problem is (a) the lack of quality in the backline and (b) the gameplan that does not seem to reward attacking play and good handling with tries.

These statistics are also interesting in the context of who might be considered for Lions places in the future.

Well done to Wales incidentally - worthy winners and playing a fine brand of rugby.

George,

good post mate and agree it demonstrates the paucity of Robinson's gameplanning. I posted elsewhere on 606v2 re this. All in all very depressing for Scottish rugby.

Also like to add congratulations to Wales - very worthy GS winners. France also played very well too. England looked good too - Stuart Lancaster is a very fine coach.

As a pro Robbo fan I think these statistics reflect the effort certain players have made throughout this tournament. They've tried to play some entertaining running rugby which has paid off at times but has also been an achilles heel. Despite getting the wooden spoon I enjoyed our performances far more than I did last year, excluding the Italy game that was a total failure in attack and a prime example of what happens when you allow Italy to dictate a game.

It has been great to see players like Hogg, Jones, Laidlaw, Denton, Rennie all getting a good go this 6 nations and making a big effort. But I do think Laidlaw, Jones and Hogg have actually been a problem for us at times. By this I mean their defense has not been up to a standard befitting international level. These players missed several crucial tackles that essentially cost us a couple of games this 6 nations. However, its expected, they're still learning and hopefully this can be fixed with training and conditioning.

Another problem i think that resulted in the wooden spoon, was once again, the dreaded silly errors. However, I think a lot of these were only coming from certain players, such as chunk, lamont, hamilton, kellock, evans, cusiter etc.

Scrums let us down big time this 6 nations, particularly against France and Ireland. I have seen little improvement in this area for a few years now and think we have one of the poorest scrums in NH.

So to try to answer your question, I wouldn't say the backline is a problem nor the gameplan. I think we have a situation where 50% of the team are grafting hard every game where as the other 50% are grafting occasionally, or when they feel like it. Essentially, we have some quality players and some substandard players. No matter what coaching, training etc is throw at these sub standard players, you simply can't polish a turd. Therefore, I think we'll start getting the results once we have more of these better players, simple!

I think its hard to draw too many conclusions from those numbers other than, 1) Gray has been at the heart of a strong line-out for most (not all) of the 6N, 2) Ross Rennie has been exceptional and 3) scotland has been trying hard.

Stats that I would love to see would be,
1) how many times a Scotland back passed the ball without committing a single defender.
2) How many times the ball was kicked away immediately after a turnover/counterattack opportunity (not including penalties)

What it unfortunately tells you is thats stats can be misleading and rugby is a team sport... not a collection of 15 individuals.

Personally I don't think we got the wooden spoon because of errors... rather a lack of bravery to go out onto the field and try and win games.... not to go out just not to lose.

Its not about bravery in the tackle etc.... its bravery to put yourself out there, to try something different. The sort of bravery Campese had... he stuffed up almost as many times as he succeeded but does anyone remember him for his awful display in the 89 lions 3rd test which probably cost them the series?

Its been our failing since McGeechan left. Williams, Hadden & Robinson have done nothing to change this. We can have no complaints... I'd rather we go out and perhaps lose a couple of matches badly but pick up some wins then come close in most but lose all.

Quite apart from the issues regarding Robinson going or not, I feel we now have to take a ruthless approach to the Scotland squad. Certain players are clearly not good enough for international rugby and should be jettisoned. Take the centres for instance, De Luca has proven himself to be lacking mentally for international rugby and should now be replaced by any one of Ansbro, Bennett, Scott, King, Grove etc. Give somebody else a chance, results couldn't be any worse than this year.
Also can't see the wisdom of recruiting the Lamonts for Glasgow, I think their time as international players has passed as well.
The summer tour squad should look very different from the Six Nations squad.

MacKnocked-on wrote:Quite apart from the issues regarding Robinson going or not, I feel we now have to take a ruthless approach to the Scotland squad. Certain players are clearly not good enough for international rugby and should be jettisoned. Take the centres for instance, De Luca has proven himself to be lacking mentally for international rugby and should now be replaced by any one of Ansbro, Bennett, Scott, King, Grove etc. Give somebody else a chance, results couldn't be any worse than this year.
Also can't see the wisdom of recruiting the Lamonts for Glasgow, I think their time as international players has passed as well.
The summer tour squad should look very different from the Six Nations squad.

Yup, time for an overhaul. I fully expect and want newbies getting more of a go as of now! I still have total respect for AR, but I will start to question his position if he begins to bring back players such as danielli, walker, etc. Time to move on. I do think this is happening, though maybe not at the pace a lot of Scottish fans would like.

I'd say its significant that, apart from Lamont, all the players listed there are the less experienced ones. Goes to show that Robinson should be less wary about giving young guys their chance. some of the older guys might look better on paper but for me the difference is a lot of them are in a rut whereas the newcomers are full of youthful exuberance and vigour and new ideas and the confidence to try things.

To me some of those stats just confirm that Scotland need to learn to put away their opportunities. They clearly have the ability and have gotten themselves in good positions to score tries. We may not have seen it against Italy or in the second half in Dublin but Robinson or whoever is going to lead Scotland next desperately needs to teach the players awareness and how to support the lone breakaway runner. It may be starting to sound cliché but it's true. Against England and France they did everything but score tries.

I loved the way that the facebook page tried to put positive spin on it after the italy game saying it had been our best attacking 6N ever. Passes and defenders beaten mean nothing if you dont score points from it!

The numbers show that we now have some star individuals (and Visser's arrival will add another), but until the team plays as a collective, and we start to be bold without the ball as well as with it, then we'll continue to miss out.

The next step (for a new coach hopefully) is to plan ahead, and start to plan and develop combinations that will work together, not just throwing players together (e.g. Morrison and De Luca) who play completely different styles of game, and expect them to gel. The new coach also needs to have some vision, and an ability to make Scotland a far less predictable outfit. Ireland stuffed us because Kidney could predict down to the last movement exactly how Scotland would play and approach the game. The scrum and lineout were stuffed, and when we aimlessly flung the ball wide, Ireland had O'Mahony camped on one side and Ferris camped on the other, just waiting for Scottish players to get isolated (which they invariably were). We also need the new coach to stop this silly habit of using players out of position.

This should be the side to aim for next season (and the new set-up should devote attention to the likes of Murray and Beattie to ensure we have them coming back to their best):

1.Welsh 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Gray 6.Brown 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Blair 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Ansbro 14.Jones 15.Hogg

16.Cross 17.S Lawson 18.MacKenzie 19.Beattie 20.Laidlaw 21.S Lamont 22.J Thompson

Scotland A

1.Dickinson 2.MacArthur 3.Low 4.Gilchrist 5.Kellock 6.Harley 7.Barclay 8.Vernon 9.Cusiter 10.Jackson 11.R Lamont 12.Leonard 13.NDL 14.Evans 15.Brown

16.Grant 17.F Thompson 18.Ryder 19.McInally 20.R Lawson 21.Grove 22.Bennett

funnyExiledScot wrote:The numbers show that we now have some star individuals (and Visser's arrival will add another), but until the team plays as a collective, and we start to be bold without the ball as well as with it, then we'll continue to miss out.

The next step (for a new coach hopefully) is to plan ahead, and start to plan and develop combinations that will work together, not just throwing players together (e.g. Morrison and De Luca) who play completely different styles of game, and expect them to gel. The new coach also needs to have some vision, and an ability to make Scotland a far less predictable outfit. Ireland stuffed us because Kidney could predict down to the last movement exactly how Scotland would play and approach the game. The scrum and lineout were stuffed, and when we aimlessly flung the ball wide, Ireland had O'Mahony camped on one side and Ferris camped on the other, just waiting for Scottish players to get isolated (which they invariably were). We also need the new coach to stop this silly habit of using players out of position.

This should be the side to aim for next season (and the new set-up should devote attention to the likes of Murray and Beattie to ensure we have them coming back to their best):

1.Welsh 2.Ford 3.Murray 4.Hamilton 5.Gray 6.Brown 7.Rennie 8.Denton 9.Blair 10.Weir 11.Visser 12.Scott 13.Ansbro 14.Jones 15.Hogg

16.Cross 17.S Lawson 18.MacKenzie 19.Beattie 20.Laidlaw 21.S Lamont 22.J Thompson

Scotland A

1.Dickinson 2.MacArthur 3.Low 4.Gilchrist 5.Kellock 6.Harley 7.Barclay 8.Vernon 9.Cusiter 10.Jackson 11.R Lamont 12.Leonard 13.NDL 14.Evans 15.Brown

16.Grant 17.F Thompson 18.Ryder 19.McInally 20.R Lawson 21.Grove 22.Bennett

Would agree with the vast majority of your selections, but Murray has one nothing to justify your faith - we should not be pandering to his faith, we need players available when we need them, not when they decide. So either Cross or Low must step up. That's a strong pack, with an attacking backline, and should be decent in defence.

Agree -His Holiness must go. Tom Ryder in for Hamilton too. R Gray for captain as Ford is clearly not up to it.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Agree -His Holiness must go. Tom Ryder in for Hamilton too. R Gray for captain as Ford is clearly not up to it.

I think the burden of captaincy when player confidence plummeted proved too much for Fordy in the end. But he is still the best hooker we have by som distance. Gray comes across as too laid back for me, so I'd give it to Denton - he's a leader and he's hungry for success. Seems like he as a decent rugby brain in him too

We all keep telling you scots you're Blwdi close...!

Jim Hamilton for captain as far as I'm concerned.

FES - I think you're A team has too much dead wood in it. We're crap enough as it is without Dickinson being near the squad. In addition to this, it turns out De Luca is just crap and it's not all Morrison's fault after all.

maestegmafia wrote:We all keep telling you scots you're Blwdi close...!

aye, for how many years have we been close maesteg? People keep telling us to stop complaining because "were going to click any day soon". Its no use being close when you cant make the final pieces fall together.

Your closer every year mate. Thing is everyone else generally progresses too as you do. The step up gets bigger.

Positives are a few wins over the SH more than us mate.

Scotland needs more depth, but the quality is improving. Maybe at a lesser rate than Ireland or Wales because you have only two regional sides?

But the good scots are seriously good.

Knowsit17 wrote: It may be starting to sound cliché but it's true. Against England and France they did everything but score tries.

Except they scored 2 tries against France...

From today's Hootmson:

[b]Six Nations: Pros and Cons of this Scotland team[b]

Our rugby writers look at six plus points...and six causes for concern from this year’s Six Nations tournament.

SIX SIGNS OF PROGRESS

Tries

After four games with no tries, Scotland broke their duck in Wales through Greig Laidlaw, scored two against France from Lee Jones and Stuart Hogg and Richie Gray scored a stunning try against Ireland. Unfortunately, that run could not be extended in Rome, where Scotland never looked like crossing the Italian line.

Ambition

Andy Robinson’s move to a more skilful, ball-in-hand game to attack sides has improved the threat, but not yet consistently.

David Denton

No 8 has increased Scottish attacking dynamic with power and skill in the loose.

Stuart Hogg

The full-back is still young but has brought more attacking nous to team and threat going forward.

Ross Rennie

Flanker has come back to his best form and was Scotland’s player of the tournament.

New caps

Emergence of debutants Lee Jones, Hogg, Ed Kalman, Matt Scott, Duncan Weir and Jon Welsh is a real positive as, importantly, they all impressed and should be key figures next season

SIX CAUSES FOR CONCERN

Lineout

It deteriorated as the tournament progressed, with six losses in Rome the worst performance for years.

Scrum

It was inconsistent after a decent start against England, taken apart by Ireland, who were, in turn, beaten up by England, and improved finally against Italy.

Restarts

These have become a key weakness that all opponents are targeting, with Ireland reaping particular benefit. This was an obvious problem at the Rugby World Cup, but has not been fixed.

Leadership

Ross Ford stepped in when Kelly Brown was injured, but has to take his share of responsibility for the poor lineout and team showing in Italy, and inexperience showed in Dublin when he took foot off the gas in key period with Ireland under the cosh.

Discipline

Scotland suffered five stupid yellow cards and lacked consistency and accuracy across tournament.

Steven Shingler saga

It was stupid for the SRU to name him in the squad before doing the proper checks, creating an unnecessary distraction and potentially ruining the player’s international career.

Chick Chalmers writes a report card in yesterday's Herald:

Craig Chalmers writes his report card on Scotland's campaign

Selection: 7/10

I THINK the forwards were pretty stuck on. I was disappointed Jon Welsh didn't get involved earlier but he came in for his debut yesterday and scrummaged pretty well.

What I would really like to have seen is more creativity in the midfield, and Sean Lamont's selection at inside centre was a problem there.

We've got wingers, and Stuart Hogg has done really well since he came in, which was a reminder we've got to blood the young ones. From that point of view I would have liked to have seen more of Matt Scott. He's maybe not as good defensively as Graeme Morrison but he would bring more to our attacking game.

I also think Greig Laidlaw has been a stop-gap at stand-off whose future will be back at scrum-half and it would have been good to see them using Duncan Weir more because he's got the kicking game, which was poor again yesterday.

attack: 4/10

ATTACK is how many tries you scored – and we've not scored enough. We've looked pretty at times, moving side-to-side across the pitch, but with no real questions being asked.

Most of our good attacking has come from forwards breaking the line, but how scary are we at other times? There's an awful lot of work to be done there.

defence: 5/10

THIS is an area we've been really strong in over the last few years, particularly when you think back to the wins over Australia and South Africa, but close to our line we've conceded ground too easily and we've been falling off tackles in a way we weren't.

We've been vulnerable in our own 22, missing one-off tackles, so our defence has taken a step backwards.

Some of the technique has been poor and while there have been some highlights, particularly with Ross Rennie ripping the ball away from opponents, it's been very disappointing.

Set-piece: 6/10

UP until the Ireland game the line-out was pretty good but it started to struggle over there and yesterday it was absolutely dreadful.

Our scrum was better yesterday, though, and I really am delighted for Jon Welsh because he's worked really hard to get where he is and I'm sure that he will now move forward through the summer and beyond. He can also play tighthead, which makes him a real asset.

decision-making: 4/10

IT has been poor. We've been too predictable in what we've been doing in attack and it has seemed as if sometimes there just aren't enough players putting their hands up and taking responsibility.

I really wish Kelly Brown had been playing and able to take up the captaincy as planned. It has been a really tough campaign for Ross Ford. He's battled on well with it but it's not something he's comfortable with.

There's enough experience out there that he should have had more help. Obviously there's a game-plan that you go out with but a lot of it is about how you react to things and decision-making in attack was particularly poor.

overall: 5/10

IT'S been a grim season. I thought the forwards played some good stuff and carried the ball well. Richie Gray continues to look a top-quality player and this campaign marked the arrival of Dave Denton, at least until yesterday when he slipped a bit. Ross Rennie has done quite well and Ross Ford had some good games while Jim Hamilton's improved, but still gives away too many penalties.

The backs still really lack penetration and after we filled ourselves with hope at the start of the season there's a lot of head-scratching to be done by the public, players and coaches.

We should have beaten England by 10 points and should have beaten France. We've not had a lot of luck but you make your own luck.

The mistakes yesterday were unbelievable and there's sometimes not a lot a coach can do about that, but I thought we would play really badly and still win against Italy.

In most sports you wouldn't get as much time as Andy Robinson's had. You can tell he's frustrated from the fact he's not been jumping about as much on the sidelines in the last couple of games. There's real pressure on Andy and his coaching staff now.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Agree -His Holiness must go. Tom Ryder in for Hamilton too. R Gray for captain as Ford is clearly not up to it.

I think the burden of captaincy when player confidence plummeted proved too much for Fordy in the end. But he is still the best hooker we have by som distance. Gray comes across as too laid back for me, so I'd give it to Denton - he's a leader and he's hungry for success. Seems like he as a decent rugby brain in him too

Not Denton. His comments about how Scotland "could have won 3 games" were moronic, and as for his rugby brain, his unplanned number 8 pick-up and subsequent isolation against Italy was straight from the under-11s rugby manual. If Beattie gets back to form next season, you'd also have to question whether Denton's place is guaranteed.

Personally I'd stick with Ford. He'll have learned a lot this tournament and he remains one of the very few players to be guaranteed to start. The other option is Brown, the player I'd have selected at the start of the tournament. His return will make a difference. A proper defensive blindside with solid carrying skills and a tail end line out option.

ghad wrote:FES - I think you're A team has too much dead wood in it. We're crap enough as it is without Dickinson being near the squad. In addition to this, it turns out De Luca is just crap and it's not all Morrison's fault after all.

Given that I'm assuming Chunk will drop out of the equation, and assuming Welsh will be selected for the 1st XV, who is the next loosehead in line if not Dickinson? Even if you would prefer Grant to start for Scotland A, surely Dickinson deserves to be involved.

I guess you haven't watched him play for Sale this season. He's been pretty decent. Most Scotland fans make the mistake of judging him on his performances at tighthead for Scotland. That was not his fault. Robinson should have taken the flak for that.

Your comment about De Luca is pretty silly. Watch Edinburgh this season, it'll enhance your knowledge of rugby infinitely.

Chick actually speaks a lot of sense there i.e. he says what we all say and not what the folk who matter say.

These stats struck me

Metres
1 Andrea Masi Italy 451
2 Robert Kearney Ireland 448
3 Ben Foden England 347
4 Stuart Hogg Scotland 300

All fullbacks - does this mean there's been a lot of poor kicking and poor chasing?

mr_stonelea, I think that if you look at almost any set of stats, whether for Rabo, AP, T14, etc., its the fullbacks that tend to come out on top in terms of yardage, mainly because of kick returns - doesn't always signify poor kicks either, altho that may sometimes be the case. For 3.5 out of 5 matches, Hogg did pretty well

FES, I've not seen much Edinburgh play this season. However, this is an international thread and it does seem to appear that NDL doesn't quite cut the mustard at international level.

As I'm now leaving the anger stage and moving into the acceptance stage of dealing with Scotland's 6 nations performance I'll admit that my previous post was negative (and contained some apalling grammar).

GLove39 wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote: It may be starting to sound cliché but it's true. Against England and France they did everything but score tries.

Except they scored 2 tries against France...

True enough, completely forgot about that for a minute!

Still should have scored more than two considering the opportunities they created and the breaks they made. Should have won that game.

The only stat that really matters is points on the board and in every game Scotland scored less than their opponents.

The players are putting the effort in on the field, but with idiots like De Luca making idiotic errors game after game and a clueless coach like Robinson, your not going to move forward.

ghad,

HTF could Hamilton be captain when he is constantly off the field pray tell ?! He is an utter rugby moron with no brain whatsoever - viz. his totally idiotic and costly enter from the side on Saturday (at least the 4th time) having been warned by the preening ninny Rolland. He is also a crap lock too - Gilchrist and Ryder way, way better players and have a few brain cells too!

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:ghad,

HTF could Hamilton be captain when he is constantly off the field pray tell ?! He is an utter rugby moron with no brain whatsoever - viz. his totally idiotic and costly enter from the side on Saturday (at least the 4th time) having been warned by the preening ninny Rolland. He is also a crap lock too - Gilchrist and Ryder way, way better players and have a few brain cells too!

Not yet convinced that Ryder is anything more than a solid club player. At international level he's a pretty small lock. I wouldn't want him playing with Richie Gray.

I'm a huge fan of Gilchrist, and I'd take him in the summer, but he has a way to go to catch up with Hamilton. Kellock's bench slot though is up for grabs. A completely average player.

Tom Ryder is as big as Kellock - bulkier too.

BTW Al Kellock would not have let that lineout fiasco happen on Saturday as lineout leader or captain. He would have hoofed Ford out of the ground ! If only !

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Agree -His Holiness must go. Tom Ryder in for Hamilton too. R Gray for captain as Ford is clearly not up to it.

I think the burden of captaincy when player confidence plummeted proved too much for Fordy in the end. But he is still the best hooker we have by som distance. Gray comes across as too laid back for me, so I'd give it to Denton - he's a leader and he's hungry for success. Seems like he as a decent rugby brain in him too

Not Denton. His comments about how Scotland "could have won 3 games" were moronic, and as for his rugby brain, his unplanned number 8 pick-up and subsequent isolation against Italy was straight from the under-11s rugby manual. If Beattie gets back to form next season, you'd also have to question whether Denton's place is guaranteed.

Personally I'd stick with Ford. He'll have learned a lot this tournament and he remains one of the very few players to be guaranteed to start. The other option is Brown, the player I'd have selected at the start of the tournament. His return will make a difference. A proper defensive blindside with solid carrying skills and a tail end line out option.

fES, am surprised that you'd interpret Denton's comments that way, he's a young lad following a script he's been given, talking to the medjia who will twist whatever he says, and his comment was pretty innocuous. Hardly a reason to declare he's not captaincy material!?!? And your highlighting one single item of play is vaguely ridiculous. The lad is a winner, hes used to winning, it's written all over him. Contrast that with poor Ford, who provided decent captaincy for the first 3 games and then under pressure went to pieces in the final two. And as for Denton being under pressure fom Beattie, I can only assume you're still on the lash from Saturday, desperately trying to forget Rome? Beattie hasn't shown form for nigh on 18 months. Let's get him back playing for his club (any club) before we give him a Scotland shirt?

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Tom Ryder is as big as Kellock - bulkier too.

BTW Al Kellock would not have let that lineout fiasco happen on Saturday as lineout leader or captain. He would have hoofed Ford out of the ground ! If only !

C'mon, c21st, the ruck inspector would have been buried at he ottom of the nearest pile-up - not what we need from a lock or a captain?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:fES, am surprised that you'd interpret Denton's comments that way, he's a young lad following a script he's been given, talking to the medjia who will twist whatever he says, and his comment was pretty innocuous. Hardly a reason to declare he's not captaincy material!?!? And your highlighting one single item of play is vaguely ridiculous. The lad is a winner, hes used to winning, it's written all over him. Contrast that with poor Ford, who provided decent captaincy for the first 3 games and then under pressure went to pieces in the final two. And as for Denton being under pressure fom Beattie, I can only assume you're still on the lash from Saturday, desperately trying to forget Rome? Beattie hasn't shown form for nigh on 18 months. Let's get him back playing for his club (any club) before we give him a Scotland shirt?

I'm not planning on giving Beattie a Scotland shirt anytime soon, merely pointing out that there is a player of considerable ability out there who could give Denton a run for his money. We have a track record of appointing captains based on short term thinking. Denton is 5 games into his Scotland game. He'll be a marked man from now on, let's see how his form holds up. You'd have appointed Beattie captain based on his form and attidude a couple of seasons ago, and where would that have left us.

If you want to ditch Ford, let's appoint a player who is experienced and consistently good, as well as guaranteed to play. That can only be Richie Gray or Kelly Brown. I agree that Gray isn't captaincy material, so let's either stick with Ford or go with Brown.

So far Denton has performed well. I've only heard him speak to the press once, and as you say, he just towed the party line. Personally that doesn't scream leadership to me. As you say, he's a young lad. If my highlighting that one piece of play (in order to provide an example of his lack of experience) is ludicrous, no more so than your suggestion that we appoint such an inexperienced player as captain. Not just inexperienced at international level (a la Chris Robshaw or Sam Warburton), but also inexperienced at club level (where he doesn't even play number 8).

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Tom Ryder is as big as Kellock - bulkier too.

BTW Al Kellock would not have let that lineout fiasco happen on Saturday as lineout leader or captain. He would have hoofed Ford out of the ground ! If only !

C'mon, c21st, the ruck inspector would have been buried at he ottom of the nearest pile-up - not what we need from a lock or a captain?

Totally agree. Kellock would not have made the slightest bit of difference, in fact when coming off the bench this tournament he hasn't made a single positive impact.

He's a worthy club player, and this season has deserved his spot on the Scotland bench. However, the chasing pack are certainly catching him. He's going to need to turn in some big performances for Glasgow between now and the end of the season to hold off Gilchrist. He'll also have Swinson to contend with next season. I'm not hugely sold on Kellock as an international player. He's the Scottish Borthwick. If only standing around the ruck and shouting at people won matches.

Unfortunately experience is not the main prerequisite for being a good captain, just look at Warburton, a perfect example, still only 23, or even your other example, Robshaw, who was given the captaincy on his second (2nd) cap! It comes fom leadership kills, which take many forms, some of which are based on action, some on words. We all knew Ford would lead from the front, as would Brown have, but equally we all acknowledged that they were both quiet men, unlikely to give the rousing speeches or wear their hearts on their sleeves. Gray fits the talent requirement, but strikes me as too laid back.

You'll have to let me know when I said Beattie should be captain? Must have missed that one

But at least Warburton and Robshaw had experience of captaining other sides. Robshaw was the most successful club captain in England, Warburton had captained all his Wales age group sides (and is frankly a bit of a freak). Both had been around the club game for several seasons. They are not good examples for your argument at all.

Denton is five games into his international career. I mention Beattie because five games into his international career he looked like one of the best number 8's in the game. A season later he couldn't get into the Glasgow side. That could very easily happen to Denton. We shouldn't just promote the next shiny thing.

I like Denton, I really do, but it is far far too soon to be naming him Scotland captain.

Unfortunately most of Scotland's nailed on starters seem to be so laid back as to be horizontal. Ford, Gray and (yes, look on the Sarries TV section of the Sarries website for his jovial interviews) Kelly Brown too.

What a pity Hines retired - he would have been perfect.

No way in the world should Hamilton be captain. That's like inviting an alcoholic to a wine tasting.

George Carlin wrote:Unfortunately most of Scotland's nailed on starters seem to be so laid back as to be horizontal. Ford, Gray and (yes, look on the Sarries TV section of the Sarries website for his jovial interviews) Kelly Brown too.

What a pity Hines retired - he would have been perfect.

No way in the world should Hamilton be captain. That's like inviting an alcoholic to a wine tasting.

GC, but I really enjoy a good wine-sinking

The numbers show we were garbage and AR's selections were key to our demise. He took players with flair, pace and decent rugby brains and partnered them up with blunt instruments like Morrison and Lamont and it created a misfiring system that was doomed to failure from the 1st match.

He somehow blended the weakest aspects of Edinburgh (poor defence) and Glasgow (Lack of cutting edge) and combined it into a poison that the Loyal Scottish fans have had to endure for the last 2 months.

We deserve better quite frankly.

Funny enough, I actually posed Hamilton as Captain at the start of the 6 nations

I still think he could be -

Yes, he was silly in the Italy game and should have taken a chill pill - but that is very much the exception

In gloucester he is the one doing the team talks, moving people around and generally organisingand motivating the team.

Maybe the Italy game is the end of that thought, but maybe not - I think he is playing very well, the captaincy might be the making of him and he is a no nonsense player

Maybe we need a kick up the jacksy type player rather than the nice ones

just a thought

Risky, interesting that Hamilton is captaincy material in your view, with one yellow card in the tournament, and yet NDL is mentally incapable of being an international and should never play for Scotland again, with two yellow cards.

Hamilton is no stranger to disciplinary issues, and has been penalised a fair bit for both Glaws and Scotland. I would not say his yellow card "is very much the exception", certainly no more so than NDL. He also took a fair bit of time to adapt to international rugby, and initially wasn't really fit enough for it.

Odd that you have such polar views of these players given the facts.

What those numbers seem to suggest is that Scotland rely heavily on a group of 3-4 players.

Stag,

yes and they all went walkabout last Saturday too !

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The numbers show we were garbage and AR's selections were key to our demise. He took players with flair, pace and decent rugby brains and partnered them up with blunt instruments like Morrison and Lamont and it created a misfiring system that was doomed to failure from the 1st match.

He somehow blended the weakest aspects of Edinburgh (poor defence) and Glasgow (Lack of cutting edge) and combined it into a poison that the Loyal Scottish fans have had to endure for the last 2 months.

We deserve better quite frankly.

We do deserve better and I have been playing rugby, or supporting the game at all levels for more than 40yrs, first time in all that time that I don't want to renew my subscriptions for the Summer and Autumn internationals

On a side issue RuggerRadge taking into account our players who were fit, available and the opposition who would you have played from 10 to 15 for the 6Ns

Unfortunately this does not coincide nicely with 'Scotland - What the Match Footage Shows'

I'll take a statistical victory, I feel like its all we have as Scotland fans right now, my belief in the team and coaching is completely shot, although with Robbo and Townsend there wasn't a lot left after our extremely shoddy world cup. My belief in the team is completely shot because of the way its been structured, the old guys are going to make our new guys terrible too and it will become an endless cycle of staleness. By 2020 we'll be beaten by Russia, Japan and USA with losses to Canada and Tonga in the years prior to that.

Scottish rugby is now dead, we had a chance to revive it, but the management cocked up on all levels. Especially on the selection level, grr Robinson! And now one of our only professional sides is under the guidance of a nice-but-incompetent moron because of a daft and unnecessary 'reshuffle'.

The United States of Robinson indeed!

Nelly my man agree completely - well said

funnyExiledScot wrote:Risky, interesting that Hamilton is captaincy material in your view, with one yellow card in the tournament, and yet NDL is mentally incapable of being an international and should never play for Scotland again, with two yellow cards.

Hamilton is no stranger to disciplinary issues, and has been penalised a fair bit for both Glaws and Scotland. I would not say his yellow card "is very much the exception", certainly no more so than NDL. He also took a fair bit of time to adapt to international rugby, and initially wasn't really fit enough for it.

Odd that you have such polar views of these players given the facts.

In actual fact, I think they are very different offences

Hamilton was pinged several times in the first half, then stopped coming in at the side for almost 50 mins - did it once more and got yellowed in a very bizzar sending off (no-one could quite understand why)

Rather than act like a 10 year old to kick the ball out of the scrum halfs hands - in a way that actually took a huge amount of effort to pull off

Hamilton does have the odd offence - granted (So does BOD), but at least he brings SOMTHING to internationals - he also does the captain part about talk to the troops and getting people fired up

And on the "certainly no more so than NDL"

Hamilton is in the coal face and part of his job is to get into the face of others - sometimes goes a bit too far - that happens with second rows

A 13 should not be sent off quite as many times for petulant childish behaviour - unforgivable

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Unfortunately experience is not the main prerequisite for being a good captain, just look at Warburton, a perfect example, still only 23, or even your other example, Robshaw, who was given the captaincy on his second (2nd) cap! It comes fom leadership kills, which take many forms, some of which are based on action, some on words. We all knew Ford would lead from the front, as would Brown have, but equally we all acknowledged that they were both quiet men, unlikely to give the rousing speeches or wear their hearts on their sleeves. Gray fits the talent requirement, but strikes me as too laid back.

You'll have to let me know when I said Beattie should be captain? Must have missed that one

Bit harsh to call Kelly Brown a quiet man. On Saturday he sung in front of over 80,000 rugby fans at Twickenham on behalf of Sport relief - admittedly he wasn't on his own but had he kicked off proceedings with a solo verse.

I think losing Kelly Brown was a big blow.He has the winning mentality and confidence that is sorely missing in Scotland at the moment. He would have also been a very handy player to have in the backrow too.