The Physicality Myth

by CaledonianCraig Sun 18 Mar 2012, 8:30 am

First topic message reminder :

For so long now here and on old 606 people have made the excuse of the physicality of tennis now for blunting Roger Federer's challenge in tournaments. Well I don't believe it really is such a big factor (if at all) as some would have you believe. Sure the players are far more physically fit now and so far better equipped to deal with long drawn out. rallies which players become conditioned to in any case.

Last night we saw Roger Federer beat Rafael Nadal and winning 20+ shots long rallies against Nadal with no sign of wilting or this mythological physicality factor kicking in. Why not? As sure as eggs are eggs it should have played out here especially if you consider the longer matches Roger has had here and far more hectic schedule of late compared to Rafael Nadal who must have felt as fresh as a daisy after more than a month out.

Another thing that bothers me about this physicality factor is this. We all know that David Ferrer is much in the Nadal mould who will stick in a rally like a human limpet and loves the long-drawn out rallies. It means to beat him you need the same physicality that you do to beat Rafael Nadal. Well then why is it that Roger Federer has played Ferrer TWELVE times and is yet to be beaten by the Spaniard? Likewise Andy Murray isn't adverse to playing long-drawn out rallies yet Roger Federer has had the upper hand in the major matches they have played in. Similarly, Novak Djokovic plays war of attrition matches but guess what? Roger Federer has won more matches than he has lost against the Serb. Once again what happened to this mythological physicality factor?

And all this on surface speeds not to Federer's liking either. Seems to be doing very well on the surfaces at the moment.

by Tenez Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:47 am

sirfredperry wrote:Interesting about the BPs. Does it suggest that left-handers should be better at warding off break points, as most times there'll be serving from the left court on a break point (30-40, van out) ?
In doing so they can use that deadly swinging leftie serve to the backhand of their right-handed opponent. No doubt this helps Rafa, who just has to be one of the best players ever at saving BPs.

THat's certainly how Fed explained his poor BP conversion ratio v Rafa once. ....and to me it makes sense.

by Guest Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:54 am

Tenez wrote:
sirfredperry wrote:Interesting about the BPs. Does it suggest that left-handers should be better at warding off break points, as most times there'll be serving from the left court on a break point (30-40, van out) ?
In doing so they can use that deadly swinging leftie serve to the backhand of their right-handed opponent. No doubt this helps Rafa, who just has to be one of the best players ever at saving BPs.

THat's certainly how Fed explained his poor BP conversion ratio v Rafa once. ....and to me it makes sense.

I think the one serve that earns it's weight in gold with Rafa is the body serve to the BH. Just unplayable.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:56 am

Just to say that there is an agreement on both sides of the argument that physicality exists in tennis - it always has.

Where the disagreements seem to be is in how much of an effect it has on recent matches between Nadal and Federer. Now I am not saying it doesn't take physical efforts to stay in such rallies but that is up to Federer to try to counter that which he has finally got around to doing. This physical side that Nadal has to his game is something that everyone on here says the game needs - variety. His style brings with it its own variety so certainly has it's place in the game. A lot of Federer's defeats came about as he got stuck in a rut and couldn't counter Nadal's tactics but now after a long time has come up with a plan and different approach along with far better mental frame of mind and so the physicality thing that a lot was made of is quickly negated. That is how I see it.

by Guest Tue 20 Mar 2012, 12:07 pm

I think to call the physicality in tennis a myth was always going to draw extreme views CC. After every Federer victory over Nadal, Murray or Djokovic shouldn't be so dismissive that physicality can't impact on the Federer game.

I would say 15% of Federer's game is based on stamina or physicality.

For Nadal, Murray and Djokovic it will be much higher because of the lack of ability to execute a winning shot in a shorter rally sequence. I would say 40% of their game is based on being able retrieve and hang in rallies.

Let's make comparisons here. Take Dolgopolov and Federer. I would argue or wage a bet that Dolgopolov is likely to make an error quicker than Federer in a flat hitting rally. I would say Dolgo would make an error after 3/4 strokes whereas with Federer I would say 10/11 strokes. So you can see there is a greater requirement to be fitter to compete with Roger.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 20 Mar 2012, 12:24 pm

My point being though that physicality is not the be all and end all it is portrayed to be or else Federer would never be able to beat Nadal. There are ways of combatting it but it is up to individual players to work out how to do that and it would seem that Federer is now working to a plan.

by lydian Tue 20 Mar 2012, 12:37 pm

"physicality" as a term is too general.
Tennis is physical no matter who is playing it.
Federer plays with an average FH rpm of 2700, Nadal up around 3300....and yet Nadal is called uber-physical for developing that RPM, yet Federer isnt THAT far behind (ok, Nadal can crank it too 5000 on some shots) and is certainly higher than most other players. Federer's game is elegant but it needs alot of energy to still deliver it. For example his footwork has to be amazing to get into position for every shot he makes...getting into position in todays game needs speed and energy.

I think the myth thing relates to whether Federer is breaking down physically in matches compared to others, and particuarly during Nadal matches. For me this is a myth but I'm not arguing the toss on it anymore, I've made my points clear.

by Guest Tue 20 Mar 2012, 12:41 pm

Where the physicality thing comes in is in the intensity of the play by Nadal and Djokovic over five sets and then again the next day or day after. Federer has fantastic fitness and match to match recovery but he can't achieve the same level of intensity.

by Tenez Tue 20 Mar 2012, 2:40 pm

lydian wrote:....I think the myth thing relates to whether Federer is breaking down physically in matches compared to others, and particuarly during Nadal matches. For me this is a myth but I'm not arguing the toss on it anymore, I've made my points clear.

According to you Fed is outsmarted right?
Sonce 2007

Best of 5

5/0 for Nadal

best of 3:

5/5 all/

Strange for the guy who has the greatest slam record! Don't you think?

by lydian Tue 20 Mar 2012, 2:52 pm

Tenez wrote: Strange for the guy who has the greatest slam record! Don't you think?

Not really. Nadal has come of age 2008 onwards...but of course every Nadal win has nothing to do with talent.
You simply never stop with this do you, its like an obsession of yours...zzzzz

by CaledonianCraig Tue 20 Mar 2012, 2:57 pm

Tenez don't you think it is a clear case where he has stubbornly stuck to a game plan that doesn't work? Now as your stats show he has won his share of best of three matches (short so the physicality doesn't come into it which I believe is what you are getting at) but it not enough when it comes to five set matches where you feel the physicality takes over and wins out. But the thing is he has had the same tactics in those matches and perhaps his own persona wouldn't accept he needed to change things to get wins. Now just recently he has tweaked his tactics and it is bearing fruit and the next test will now come in their next slam meeting. It is up to Federer to dictate what sort of game is played when he next faces Nadal in a slam.

by Tenez Tue 20 Mar 2012, 3:04 pm

lydian wrote:
Tenez wrote: Strange for the guy who has the greatest slam record! Don't you think?
Not really. Nadal has come of age 2008 onwards...but of course every Nadal win has nothing to do with talent.
You simply never stop with this do you, its like an obsession of yours...zzzzz

I only posted cause you are obsessed with the fact you do not want to recognise the obvious. I don;t start threads on physicality I reply when I see a post which doesn't make sense.

zzzz but funily you coudl not resist bringing, once again, your outsmarting views, be it indirectly, failing to see that Nadal is smarter over 5 sets than 3 for some reasons.

by Tenez Tue 20 Mar 2012, 3:07 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Tenez don't you think it is a clear case where he has stubbornly stuck to a game plan that doesn't work? ...

I think I have responded to that already. What do you think he shoudl do then? Battle like Murray and Djoko for 5 hours? What do you think prevents him from doing it?

by Guest Tue 20 Mar 2012, 3:13 pm

I see the point lydian is making in terms 'physical' being too generic. You could call it 'athleticism' and it would still mean the same. The interpretation I see of 'physicallity' is a tactic which requires more physical input, as in chasing down ball after ball and still being in the point when it has moved on to a baseline slug.

There is no right or wrong. In today's room it is a massive requirement for players to be very fit to compete.

lydian under no illusions stated Nadal 'outsmarted' Federer in their meetings. He is just saying that talent with fitness is the most contributing factor.

Tenez's point is that there is more emphasis on stamina in the games of Nadal, Djokovic and Murray because they are unable to hit a clean winner 2/3 strokes into rally against Federer, like he is able to them. That said it doesn't mean they can't do against other players below Federer.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 20 Mar 2012, 3:16 pm

Well he has altered tactics of late. He is returning far more aggresively and gaining an early upper hand in rallies before Nadal can impose his style on the rally. Now that may be part and parcel of an increased self belief which he evidently has now following a superb run of form since the US Open. There has been a change in his tactics against Rafa that negates Rafa but next step is to try it out in the slams.

by hawkeye Tue 20 Mar 2012, 3:31 pm

Tenez

Why don't you write an article entitled "Physicality The Truth". It's just a guess but I have a feeling you might have a theory about it. Don't be shy I'm sure everyone would like to know more?

by lydian Tue 20 Mar 2012, 5:22 pm

HE, I can essentially write the article for him:
Federer 100% talent/timing 0% physicality
Nadal 0% talent/timing 100% physicality

There, its done.
Then just repeat 25 times daily, incase no-one got it the 1st around

by Jubbahey Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:07 pm

That is precisely what CC has been trying to get over on here, the constant talk about physicality. It has not been generalised but pointedly poked at Nadals direction, constantly for over a year on here.

Its not that long ago, 6 months maybe, that there was a concerted effort to demonise him by saying that Nadal had killed tennis and was murdering the game with his physicality.

If none of you remember that, then you've once again been hoodwinked.

All the talk was of Nadals continuing and relentless pursuit of strength and stamina, his shots were purely based on speed and topspin and moonballing his way through every match.

This has been such a puerile attempt to disparage Nadals career for so long, that I'm surprised there are some of us still arguing the matter.

Essentially, the rest of the world know what Nadal has in him and what he brings to the game, I have not heard anything different that brings fresh light to the conversation except the monotonous overtones of the term physicality, which CC has quite rightly pointed out is inaccurate as a total description of Nadals game.

There is also an inaccurate assumption that Federer has not got the levels of "physicality" that Nadal or Djokovic has, again this is short-shortsightedness, Federer has gone the distance many times in slam finals and throughout slam events. He hits the ball as hard as them and runs around as much as them, whether he chooses to run down every ball is a moot point, as we will never know why he makes the decision to do so, and Djokovic doesn't.

For all the pontificating, no-one has managed to change the nations' view that Nadal has equal amounts of talent and stamina as Federer.

I'll listen to the experts, they have inside knowledge and many of them have played professionally. The general consensus is that at the very least, Nadal is one of the all time greatest, and there is no concerted effort on their part to demonise him or denigrate his career for lack of talent.

by Jubbahey Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:17 pm

Tenez wrote:
lydian wrote:
Tenez wrote: Strange for the guy who has the greatest slam record! Don't you think?
Not really. Nadal has come of age 2008 onwards...but of course every Nadal win has nothing to do with talent.
You simply never stop with this do you, its like an obsession of yours...zzzzz

I only posted cause you are obsessed with the fact you do not want to recognise the obvious. I don;t start threads on physicality I reply when I see a post which doesn't make sense.

zzzz but funily you coudl not resist bringing, once again, your outsmarting views, be it indirectly, failing to see that Nadal is smarter over 5 sets than 3 for some reasons.

Whoa there boy! I seem to remember an article from your pen.........here....

https://www.606v2.com/t22724-physical-the-buzz-word-in-tennis

Is it really a year ago! my, how time flies.

by polished_man Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:33 pm

Speaking about this matter, quite frankly I don't think Sharapova physicality can never be overlooked. She has the greatest physicality ever to walk on earth, imvho.

by Guest Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:35 pm

Kournikova beats Sharapova every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

by polished_man Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:40 pm

But Kournicova has not even been tennis player, for what I know she must have been a playboy bunny or something alike

by amritia3ee Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:43 pm

Stunning post Jubbahey clap

Refreshing to see such a fair minded post here clap

However I admit I am surprised the mods dont't debate for/against Tenez's extreme viewpoints ever.
If course I fully understand that they have a right to post on whoever topic they like, and that I can't pressure them into doing something; I'm not having a go at Julius/ Laverfan (they normally do a great job) but just expressing my surprise.
Both Julius and Laverfan are both superb well balanced in my opinion, a point of view I'm sure we all share. They both have 1500+ comments and as far as I can observe both like debating on all the topics.
Era comparisons, tennis records, cryptic clues, pretty much anything (tennis related Wink

). Apart from one thing. I have never seen either of them really debating against Tenez. Both LF/ Julius like to debate with superbly researched posts and will post their view of they don't agree with something. But not against Tenez, not the constant nonsencial discrediting of Nadal, normally it's left for Lydian and me to defend Nadal, but for some even claiming that Nadal is talented is a crime. As I said I'm not having a go at the mods, they are both superb posters, I find it a bit strange that they post on this. I've never seen Laverfan/JM ever joining in with the hate messages against Nadal, but never seen them say 'Wait a sec... Have you considered Nadal may be talented' to Tenez.
Nothing bad against the mods, of course they don't have a requirement, I just can't explain why such talented debators can't agree/ argue with Tenez. Ive been involved with 'Fedal' debates with them, so they do debate on tennis related topics.
I remember a great post from Lydian, which sums up my views further.

by amritia3ee Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:46 pm

Found it:

lydian wrote:BB, so Nadal has won 10 slams by never outsmarting people? Especially when he's probably the best clay courter of all time? A surface known for needing to build points and outwit opponents, and he's won all he has on clay without being able to outsmart opponents?

You know when you sit back, this thread isnt too bad but its just another one having a go at Nadal ultimately. Another one in a sea of them. Another thread of subtle or not so subtle put downs on the guy to reduce him to this ongoing theme of lungs and a racuqet.

What is really trying to achieved here outside of intellectual jousting? The continual denigration of Nadal.
Arguments put back and forth in layers of smart-a***'ery but denigration of Nadal nonetheless.
BB, arent even you getting tired of all this constant anti-Nadal stuff? Which is what it is. I know I am. I guess not for you as its modus operandi.

I agree HB. But then this forum has had an anti-Nadal focus and agenda since day 1. But then that needs no real working out...look at the joining date of the main protagonists. 606v2 opened its doors and hey presto, they had a brand new place to continue to vent their spleen at Nadal. Since April 2011 its daily upon daily denigration of the guy. The funny thing is that I'm not even THAT massive a fan of his actually, believe it or not, but I feel drawn into defending him against the constant tidal wave of daily negativity on here. Why do I do that...lord knows. But no more after today for sure. My defending actions just escalate how I come across as a Nadal 'fan' and I'm tired of that. There is so much more to tennis that this place being sunk under daily Fedalism...(as LF would say).

Drawing back, its the daily drip drip repetitive effect which is most damaging to the forum as a whole as well. Why? Because we're not really seeing new tennis members join in great numbers are we?
Many probably lurk around as guests seeing the same old topics of Nadal discussion and decide not to join. Unless they are Federer fans wishing to pile into the anti-Nadalism. You certainly wont get new Nadal fans joining....why should they? They might as go somewhere else. Of course there are the neutrals as well, but do neutrals want to be reading how Nadal does this or that everyday, why he's got no talent, always wasting time, cant outsmart anyone on a court, etc, etc.

But I'm sick to the back teeth of reading the same old stuff day in, day out. The same points written across all threads about how Nadal is a fake, just a pair of lungs, bad for the sport, talentless, moonballer with no guile, only peaks for slams *wink *wink, etc, etc, etc.

When you add it all up it creates an overall impression of a forum that has an agenda against one player because its relentless. Even if individual posts dont themselves cross the line, the big picture is clear. Yes free speech is great...but freedom should come with control. Self-control. And to that extent I hear where Socal and other members are coming from. Even neutrals like HB are saying there's too much hatred for Nadal on here. I've even heard in the past the arrogance of posters on here saying they are the life and blood of this place, that this place would be nothing without them. This they feel gives them carte-blanche to drive their point and agenda home repeatedly.

Its time to stop. Knocking Nadal every thread, every post needs to be given a rest or else this place is never going to grow and discuss the wealth of topics possible about tennis because it doesnt encourage people to post new threads. I know I cant be bothered, my motivation to do so when this forum is dominated by the anti-Nadal brigade isnt there at all, even to post non-Nadal topics. So...probably a waste of time saying all this, I know even this post will be roundly denounced and the anti-Nadal focus will continue unabashed. Dont let me stop you guys...please get back to doing what you do best, attacking one player and making the forum such a positive sphere of reading

PS. summerblues, thats all well and good analysing the ins and outs of "outsmarting" as a side discussion but the bigger picture argument here is to collectively attack Nadal's capability and success...as just about all threads about him are.

by CaledonianCraig Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:49 pm

That post hits the bullseye from lydian.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:51 pm

I'm pretty sure I must have entered into the debate at some point and said everything I felt I'd like to say.
But it's an endless debate, endlessly repeated, and because of that it holds little interest for me. I don't have the inclination to re-write what I've written before and I can't see that anyone would want to re-read it either Smile

by amritia3ee Tue 20 Mar 2012, 7:59 pm

I do

Infact I haven't seen you post on that topic in the first place.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 20 Mar 2012, 8:20 pm

Additionally, nothing I write will ever change anybody's mind, and even if it did, what then? Smile

by lydian Tue 20 Mar 2012, 8:31 pm

Oh I dont know JHM, sometimes what we write can change opinions...so with respect thats a little too cynical/negative for me. Unless of course you're simply referring to there being no point in responding to Tenez where Nadal is concerned, for which I wholeheartedly agree

by Tenez Tue 20 Mar 2012, 9:35 pm

lydian wrote:HE, I can essentially write the article for him:
Federer 100% talent/timing 0% physicality
Nadal 0% talent/timing 100% physicality

As you have been proven wrong again, you are resorting to twisting what I say.

You are reaching new lows I am afraid.

by hawkeye Tue 20 Mar 2012, 10:27 pm

I suspect that JuliusHMarx and laverfan despite being fair minded and doing their best to be balanced fall a little short of being Nadal "fans". Nothing wrong with that as we are all entitled to are views but it would make it more difficult to jump to Nadals defence.

Am I way off mark or is there perhaps a little truth in that?

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 20 Mar 2012, 10:34 pm

I think I've mentioned before I've been a fan of Connors, Agassi and Henman - in the sense of jumping up and down, screaming at the TV emotional involvement (never that bad actually, but you know what I mean).

I'm more partial to Fed's style of play, the guy's a genius on the court, although there's plenty to admire in Rafa's game too - but I'm not a fan of either, in the way I view being a fan i.e. I'm not that bothered if they win or lose.

by hawkeye Tue 20 Mar 2012, 10:36 pm

Do you never jump up and down and scream at the tv now Julius?

by socal1976 Tue 20 Mar 2012, 10:46 pm

Jubbahey wrote:That is precisely what CC has been trying to get over on here, the constant talk about physicality. It has not been generalised but pointedly poked at Nadals direction, constantly for over a year on here.

Its not that long ago, 6 months maybe, that there was a concerted effort to demonise him by saying that Nadal had killed tennis and was murdering the game with his physicality.

If none of you remember that, then you've once again been hoodwinked.

All the talk was of Nadals continuing and relentless pursuit of strength and stamina, his shots were purely based on speed and topspin and moonballing his way through every match.

This has been such a puerile attempt to disparage Nadals career for so long, that I'm surprised there are some of us still arguing the matter.

Essentially, the rest of the world know what Nadal has in him and what he brings to the game, I have not heard anything different that brings fresh light to the conversation except the monotonous overtones of the term physicality, which CC has quite rightly pointed out is inaccurate as a total description of Nadals game.

There is also an inaccurate assumption that Federer has not got the levels of "physicality" that Nadal or Djokovic has, again this is short-shortsightedness, Federer has gone the distance many times in slam finals and throughout slam events. He hits the ball as hard as them and runs around as much as them, whether he chooses to run down every ball is a moot point, as we will never know why he makes the decision to do so, and Djokovic doesn't.

For all the pontificating, no-one has managed to change the nations' view that Nadal has equal amounts of talent and stamina as Federer.

I'll listen to the experts, they have inside knowledge and many of them have played professionally. The general consensus is that at the very least, Nadal is one of the all time greatest, and there is no concerted effort on their part to demonise him or denigrate his career for lack of talent.

A tour de force, Jubba, truely right on. Says what I have been feeling and have not expressed as concisely and eloquently as you have. As you have mentioned any great of the game any expert of note he examines the man and his career and game rates his talent and ability very highly. But there is this odd concerted effort for years now to somehow downgrade the guy.

Craig as usual makes the correct points as well. Federer in my mind does not lose to Nadal and Djoko because he gets tired or out physicalled. For years I have been screaming that Federer has improper tactics when facing Nadal. If I could figure that out I am sure Uncle Toni realized it. I think Federer was hurt by not having a quality coach for so long, and probably ignoring the good advice of the coaches he had. Prime example, his propensity to chip every backhand return back to Nadal, which Nadal promptly run around and turn into a short forehand. That is why in 07 and 08 and 09 he had so much trouble breaking Nadal on key points, at least one of the critical reasons.

by lydian Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:03 pm

Tenez wrote:You are reaching new lows I am afraid.

Oh well I'll just have to find a way to struggle through and cope somehow Laugh

Nice article Jubba

by Tenez Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:04 pm

Nadal through his charisma and look has brought in the sport a much wider audience. People who can't quite see the difficulty in a SHBH DTL but got hooked in the rivalry with Federer.

SO don't expect any commentator to criticise Nadal and his game. It has been good, at first at least, for the sport. End of.

However , it doesn't say anything about Nadal's game, Physical/talent ratio or else. That's a different matter, those millions of tennis watchers don;t care much, like they don;t care what balls or courts are used. They relate to a player and want that player to win. Nothing else.

by hawkeye Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:35 pm

Tenez wrote:Nadal through his charisma and look has brought in the sport a much wider audience. People who can't quite see the difficulty in a SHBH DTL but got hooked in the rivalry with Federer.

SO don't expect any commentator to criticise Nadal and his game. It has been good, at first at least, for the sport. End of.

However , it doesn't say anything about Nadal's game, Physical/talent ratio or else. That's a different matter, those millions of tennis watchers don;t care much, like they don;t care what balls or courts are used. They relate to a player and want that player to win. Nothing else.

Tenez. You really need to get out there and educate them. You could make it your mission. Don't worry I'll look after 606v2 whilst your gone...

by Guest Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:52 pm

Tenez wrote:... However , it doesn't say anything about Nadal's game, Physical/talent ratio or else. That's a different matter, those millions of tennis watchers don't care much, like they don't care what balls or ...

I disagree. I think quite a few care about those balls and just how much bouncier they are in the heat.

by reckoner Wed 21 Mar 2012, 12:06 am

What are you guys on about tennis is only played once a year at Wimbledon? (Come on, Tim!)

by time please Wed 21 Mar 2012, 10:39 am

The best and most balanced post on here is legends imo. I can't really say it any better than this:

legendkillar wrote:I find a few things frustrating.

Firstly that most posters fail accept that Nadal's tactics against Federer is to blunt his game and then attack at the very end. It is a tried and tested tactic he has used countless times. Attack the BH and retrieve the FH. Nothing spectacular agreed, but it does take the talent of discipline to play in such a manner for hours in a match. What the WTF and IW showed was that if Nadal will go blow to blow with Federer on flat strokes, he isn't going to win. It was of no surprise that in some rallies that Federer covered more distance because it was Nadal trying to expand the court and work Federer around.

Secondily, Nadal does not use the above tactics against ALL players. Infact when he plays lesser quality opponents he is able to play aggressive and attacking tennis. Tennis is all about peaking and what Nadal does so well is that he is able to incorporate 2 different styles and tactics in a tournament. It comes across that once you have seen Nadal v Federer, that you have seen all that Nadal has to offer and it couldn't be further from the truth.

Nadal is just physically much stronger which is not the same as fitness, and that he uses that to crush the vulnerable shbh - why wouldn't he? It is frustrating as a Fed fan, but it makes perfect sense for him to do it - he is out to win, but to deny that is a factor when they meet is quite myopic. Similarly when you watch Nadal, as I did at the 02 in 2009, having lost quite a few kilos to save the knees, his shots lacked venom- it is a successful component of his game to be able to really muscle the ball and create that fearsome topspin.

Of course he is a wonderful talent, brilliant shotmaker etc and that his game only relies on his physical strength is being blinkered too - but his game is better when he is physically stronger (not just fitter) as his career shows us.

Jubbahey wrote:If none of you remember that, then you've once again been hoodwinked.

At the end of the day, these are only opinions on here and posters should have a right to express those as long as they are not hurling insults at each other.

thanks for your concern in the above J - but I find that I am quite capable of making up my own mind

by Jubbahey Wed 21 Mar 2012, 10:48 am

But its OK to hurl insults at Nadal then, is he not a human as well, with rights ?

by Tenez Wed 21 Mar 2012, 10:55 am

we are talking about tennis styles here!

by Guest Wed 21 Mar 2012, 10:58 am

Thanks TP

I can see a lot of frustration has been expressed on this thread and on the subject in hand. I just think if universally that some posters on both camps need to accept that one doesn't exist without the other. Nadal can play ugly tennis, yes, but this brings out the ugly side of Federer's tennis in that he draws out more errors. That is the tactic he uses and it is the tactic that works. I can't see why fans have a 'dislike' not hatred, for a brand of tennis that to Federer is a weakness. As a tennis fan I enjoy the rivalry. Roger has closed the gap in the rivalry and it isn't so one-sided as it was before and if anything with Roger's recent success over Nadal has added a sparked interest in the rivalry.

Federer is a talent. A rare talent in that the shots he plays like the SHBH in conditions that have nearly killed it off he is able to produce winners or angles that keep him in matches and still at the top end of the tennis world. Roger's high standards were never going to last over a consistent period. Not because of fitness levels declining, but because players are able to combat his game with greater stamina and defensive shot making.

Djokovic and Nadal are predators. They hunt down the Federer game and it is brutal to watch because they overwhelm his game with constant running and retrieving. Djokovic can hit it out with Federer in flat rally. Nadal on the other hand can't because the topspin takes so much power out of his groundstrokes. Question is what can players do differently to combat the likes of Nadal and Djokovic? Simply you have to hit through them as hard as possible. Take Isner v Djokovic. Isner had to drill his FH to produce winners or winning points. Soderling against Nadal did the same in 2009 and Federer recently has done the same. Nadal's game heavily based on power and stamina is twice as likely to decrease quicker than Federer's because of age and also the body can't sustain those levels over a long period of 12-15 years. Look at Agassi. He had to become a heavier hitter on his BH and serve to stay with the younger players and improved players.

by time please Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:07 am

you're very welcome legend Hug

Another great post which everyone should read!

by CaledonianCraig Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:15 am

Just lately we have heard about variety being the spice of life (when it comes to style of players and court speeds) and in that case I would say Nadal offers that kind of variety playing shots that nobody else can but for some they are unwilling to accept that.

Now I do see what people are saying that Nadal's power is an over-riding factor in his wins over Federer but that power is coupled with those shots that it takes a heck of a lot of talent to play. It is up to players themselves to combat that strong point of Nadal's by differing their tactics/style of play when they face him.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:28 am

time please wrote:
Similarly when you watch Nadal, as I did at the 02 in 2009, having lost quite a few kilos to save the knees, his shots lacked venom- it is a successful component of his game to be able to really muscle the ball and create that fearsome topspin.

TP, are you sure about that weight loss in 2009? Thing is this point was raised in one of the previous threads and its was denied completely by some crazy fans. I just want to know it as you say you saw him at o2 in 2009.

time please wrote:Of course he is a wonderful talent, brilliant shotmaker etc and that his game only relies on his physical strength is being blinkered too - but his game is better when he is physically stronger (not just fitter) as his career shows us.

No one bar the Nadal fans have ever written that Nadal has 0 talent. Every critic of Nadal on 606v2 will agree that Nadal is talented tennis player. They all are because out of millions trying to even make up something out of the racquet sport, these are miles and miles ahead. But talent alone doesn't transform into silver-ware. So everyone who is a talented tennis player will not have a great successful resume to show. Similarly a player can have great success but may not be high on talent. Talent alone is not what it takes to be a successful player.

So about Nadal, no on bar the Nadal fans say he has no talent. But what is said is its not his talent that has won him the amount of success he has had till now. With that talent he would still have had good success, but it would never have been anything compared to what it is now. In my opinion, if it was all about talent, Federer's biggest rival should have been Nalbandian. But we all know how poor Nalby's resume looks comapred to that of Nadal. So what has transformed that good success into a glittering success for Nadal. Its his superior physicality, which was far ahead of anyone till last year when Djo turned gluteen-free.

And still physicality is a myth for some??? Get real people.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:32 am

Yes still not the be all and end all of tennis so yes a myth to blame Fed's defeats purely on physicality and physicality alone.

by raiders_of_the_lost_ark Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:36 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Just lately we have heard about variety being the spice of life (when it comes to style of players and court speeds) and in that case I would say Nadal offers that kind of variety playing shots that nobody else can but for some they are unwilling to accept that.

Now I do see what people are saying that Nadal's power is an over-riding factor in his wins over Federer but that power is coupled with those shots that it takes a heck of a lot of talent to play. It is up to players themselves to combat that strong point of Nadal's by differing their tactics/style of play when they face him.

Totally moved goal post. we aren't talking about any spice of life or or what variety Nadal brings to to court or what Federer should do combat Nadal's play.

by Guest Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:41 am

If it was based on 'talent' then for me Gasquet should be Roger's main rival.

What I will say is that if I said what is talent, most will say 'shot making abilities' and like lydian would echo is just too 'generic'

by CaledonianCraig Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:48 am

Moved the goalposts? On this topic perhaps but not on tennis in general. Variety is offered by Nadal which Fed fans themselves want to see so they should recognise and accredit the variety he brings.

Anyway back on topic. Talent is needed by the bucketload for Nadal to pull off shots that no one else can master and no it isn't solely the big biceps or else how come anyone else in the sport cannot even come close. Those shots he plays needs great technique and practise as well and years of work to get it where it is.

by time please Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:49 am

rotla - please let me make this v clear straight away that I am not going to get drawn into any speculations about certain practices

Yes he did drop weight in 2009 - it was quite noticeable and I think he did so to take the pressure from his knees. He has never since bulked up so much around the legs and arms although he is still strong and has put back on some muscle from November 2009, though his legs look far less weighty to me now and that is no doubt why he has been able to manage his tendinitis.

My cousin who has an MSc in sports physiology and science and runs a gym commented before that he was carrying far too much weight in 2008 for a tennis player and that it was putting far too much pressure on his joints. Presumably, medical advice told the Nadal camp exactly the same thing after his problems at the beginning of 2009.

Can I also say raiders, (even though it is none of my business) that I wish you would try and be a bit less combative because when you do make really interesting posts half the people aren't listening to you because you have rubbed them up the wrong way with phrases like 'get real people' - it irritates me and there are many issues that I agree with you about

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