The Physicality Myth

First topic message reminder :

For so long now here and on old 606 people have made the excuse of the physicality of tennis now for blunting Roger Federer's challenge in tournaments. Well I don't believe it really is such a big factor (if at all) as some would have you believe. Sure the players are far more physically fit now and so far better equipped to deal with long drawn out. rallies which players become conditioned to in any case.

Last night we saw Roger Federer beat Rafael Nadal and winning 20+ shots long rallies against Nadal with no sign of wilting or this mythological physicality factor kicking in. Why not? As sure as eggs are eggs it should have played out here especially if you consider the longer matches Roger has had here and far more hectic schedule of late compared to Rafael Nadal who must have felt as fresh as a daisy after more than a month out.

Another thing that bothers me about this physicality factor is this. We all know that David Ferrer is much in the Nadal mould who will stick in a rally like a human limpet and loves the long-drawn out rallies. It means to beat him you need the same physicality that you do to beat Rafael Nadal. Well then why is it that Roger Federer has played Ferrer TWELVE times and is yet to be beaten by the Spaniard? Likewise Andy Murray isn't adverse to playing long-drawn out rallies yet Roger Federer has had the upper hand in the major matches they have played in. Similarly, Novak Djokovic plays war of attrition matches but guess what? Roger Federer has won more matches than he has lost against the Serb. Once again what happened to this mythological physicality factor?

And all this on surface speeds not to Federer's liking either. Seems to be doing very well on the surfaces at the moment.

Tenez....lol at being unbiased, that'll be the day.

Completely agree Gav....see my post the other day about exactly the same thing, I think Amritia33 posted it again yesterday. This forum is almost a daily Nadal bashing zone...and quite frankly has been pretty much from the start. I also said perhaps there can be a separate zone on here for the Nadal bashers where they can stick cyber pins into their online effigy every day to sooth their pains.

You say you dont know why its like this...I think many people do. Tenez knows he's repeating himself over and over but cant help himself and laughingly tries to come across as all neutral and impartial...yeah right...was it being neutral that got him banned from at least 2 other forums for similar incessant Nadal bashing... He wont be happy until this place is a complete Nadal-fan free zone with his incessant physicality discussions and then the bashing can go on almost unheeded, and seemingly unchecked.

Well congrats...its got one less now. I have no desire or motivation to post here anymore, the place is too negative for my liking. Yeah its all about posting opinions...but its the same thing, day in, day out for a year now and nothing has been done to stop the clearly anti-Nadal flavour of the place. Its not like I'm his biggest fan either...and what is amazing is that we're all supposed to be fans of tennis! But for me I've had my judgement, ability to play tennis, know about tennis, questioned once too often...I dont need it to be honest. Its time to walk.

So I'm out. You can do a merry jig now Tenez...

Good luck all...

laverfan wrote:From Rafa's biography...

"My endurance too. Endurance: that’s a big word.

Keeping going physically, never letting up, and putting up with everything that comes my way, not allowing the good or the bad—the great shots or the weak ones, the good luck or the bad—to put me off track.

I have to be centered, no distractions, do what I have to do in each moment.

If I have to hit the ball twenty times to Federer’s backhand, I’ll hit it twenty times, not nineteen. If I have to wait for the rally to stretch to ten shots or twelve or fifteen to bide my chance to hit a winner, I’ll wait.

There are moments when you have a chance to go for a winning drive, but you have a 70 percent chance of succeeding;

you wait five shots more and your odds will have improved to 85 percent.

So be alert, be patient, don’t be rash."

The question is this... Why do the odds improve from 70% to 85% by hitting five shots more?

Would like to see a discussion from both sides of the 'great divide'?

PS: The other question is... What does it take for a Tennis player to hit five shots more?

What you cannot deny with this piece is that Nadal certainly is the thinking player.

Also what strikes me is the lack of confidence he has in shorter rallies which this passage implies. He is willing to prolong rallies not for the benefit of exhausting lesser fit players, but also he seems to only seem really confident when there is a large empty part of the court to aim at.

Playing that extra 5 shots increases his chances of winning the point and decreases his opponents chance of winning, especially if the opponent is hitting flat groundstrokes. I always go back to the FO 2009 when Soderling was able to play 2-3 flat shots and just demolish and hit through Nadal. What players have learnt from Nadal is that throwing 5 groundstrokes into the Federer BH will either draw an error or a return short enough for a clean winner or point winning shot. To most fans it is the dullest of tactics and to most shows no real signs of talent or imagination for that matter.

What I find also interesting is that he makes no mention of conditions or surfaces which for me would change his odds quite dramatically. Clay brings out his how array of shots. Hard and faster courts restrict this and means he plays more passively because the 5 shot window becomes a 3-4 shot window. Indoor surfaces he has maybe a 2-3 or even as less as a 1 shot window to either draw the error or win the point and that has proven with his record indoors that it completely disrupts his game.

It shows intelligence, but to some shows lack of imagination.

Legendkiller, let's be frank here, there's more chance of Nick Clegg winning a majority for the Lib Dems in the 2015 elections than Nadal actually writing the book.
At best it was put together after recording of Spanish interviews, at worst just written by someone who know him well.
Certainly Nadals training schedule is described in detail, and at no point does it look like he has the time to write a 400 word book in posh English.
Not saying the book's account is true/not true, just an observation.

lydian wrote:Tenez....lol at being unbiased, that'll be the day.

Completely agree Gav....see my post the other day about exactly the same thing, I think Amritia33 posted it again yesterday. This forum is almost a daily Nadal bashing zone...and quite frankly has been pretty much from the start. I also said perhaps there can be a separate zone on here for the Nadal bashers where they can stick cyber pins into their online effigy every day to sooth their pains.

You say you dont know why its like this...I think many people do. Tenez knows he's repeating himself over and over but cant help himself and laughingly tries to come across as all neutral and impartial...yeah right...was it being neutral that got him banned from at least 2 other forums for similar incessant Nadal bashing... He wont be happy until this place is a complete Nadal-fan free zone with his incessant physicality discussions and then the bashing can go on almost unheeded, and seemingly unchecked.

Well congrats...its got one less now. I have no desire or motivation to post here anymore, the place is too negative for my liking. Yeah its all about posting opinions...but its the same thing, day in, day out for a year now and nothing has been done to stop the clearly anti-Nadal flavour of the place. Its not like I'm his biggest fan either...and what is amazing is that we're all supposed to be fans of tennis! But for me I've had my judgement, ability to play tennis, know about tennis, questioned once too often...I dont need it to be honest. Its time to walk.

So I'm out. You can do a merry jig now Tenez...

Good luck all...

Just read this.

If Lydians going, I'm going. There really isn't any point to put up with it now

amritia3ee

I am not questioning the books 'accuracy' or Nadal's input.

LF asked for a view on a passage taken from the book, I gave the most honest and balanced view I could on it. Some posters may not have commented on this feeling they may repeat themselves.

I welcome it as a new perspective and it certainly offers an insight to the man. For me it shows thinking. Something he has been accused of lacking.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Unbiased? You Tenez? Never. You openly and freely admit you have a dislike to Nadal so I'd say that makes you very biased.

That doesn't make me biased. Not liking a player because he bends the rule makes me less biased that the fans who likes a player who bends the rule. Don't you think?

Yes, good analysis LK.
Anyway goodnight.

amritia3ee wrote:

lydian wrote:Tenez....lol at being unbiased, that'll be the day.

Completely agree Gav....see my post the other day about exactly the same thing, I think Amritia33 posted it again yesterday. This forum is almost a daily Nadal bashing zone...and quite frankly has been pretty much from the start. I also said perhaps there can be a separate zone on here for the Nadal bashers where they can stick cyber pins into their online effigy every day to sooth their pains.

You say you dont know why its like this...I think many people do. Tenez knows he's repeating himself over and over but cant help himself and laughingly tries to come across as all neutral and impartial...yeah right...was it being neutral that got him banned from at least 2 other forums for similar incessant Nadal bashing... He wont be happy until this place is a complete Nadal-fan free zone with his incessant physicality discussions and then the bashing can go on almost unheeded, and seemingly unchecked.

Well congrats...its got one less now. I have no desire or motivation to post here anymore, the place is too negative for my liking. Yeah its all about posting opinions...but its the same thing, day in, day out for a year now and nothing has been done to stop the clearly anti-Nadal flavour of the place. Its not like I'm his biggest fan either...and what is amazing is that we're all supposed to be fans of tennis! But for me I've had my judgement, ability to play tennis, know about tennis, questioned once too often...I dont need it to be honest. Its time to walk.

So I'm out. You can do a merry jig now Tenez...

Good luck all...

Just read this.

If Lydians going, I'm going. There really isn't any point to put up with it now

But where will you go?

legendkillarV2 wrote:
Also what strikes me is the lack of confidence he has in shorter rallies which this passage implies. He is willing to prolong rallies not for the benefit of exhausting lesser fit players, but also he seems to only seem really confident when there is a large empty part of the court to aim at.

The by-product of longer rallies is an exhausted opponent, if there are any fitness differences.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Playing that extra 5 shots increases his chances of winning the point and decreases his opponents chance of winning, especially if the opponent is hitting flat groundstrokes.

The Djokovic matches (in 2011 and 2012) seem to contradict that playing extra shots allows him to win. Federer-Djokovic matches contain perhaps more 'flatter' rallies.

legendkillarV2 wrote:I always go back to the FO 2009 when Soderling was able to play 2-3 flat shots and just demolish and hit through Nadal.

Soderling's power was underestimated on that day.

legendkillarV2 wrote:What players have learnt from Nadal is that throwing 5 groundstrokes into the Federer BH will either draw an error or a return short enough for a clean winner or point winning shot. To most fans it is the dullest of tactics and to most shows no real signs of talent or imagination for that matter.

Federer can and does use his BH to pass opponents. The topspin from Nadal is a significant difference.

legendkillarV2 wrote:What I find also interesting is that he makes no mention of conditions or surfaces which for me would change his odds quite dramatically. Clay brings out his how array of shots. Hard and faster courts restrict this and means he plays more passively because the 5 shot window becomes a 3-4 shot window. Indoor surfaces he has maybe a 2-3 or even as less as a 1 shot window to either draw the error or win the point and that has proven with his record indoors that it completely disrupts his game.

Surfaces homogenization is one aspect which has been mentioned allowing more or less the same style of play to be executed on all types of courts.

legendkillarV2 wrote:It shows intelligence, but to some shows lack of imagination.

To manoeuvre your opponent, does require both, as well as split-second decision making.

Gav wrote:Out of all the sections here on v2, the tennis section is the only section where the contributors constantly argue, bicker, try to get one over on another and throw insults. Why?

A reason could be people who discuss tennis are more passionate. Tennis is also one of the popular sections on 606v2. A forum is always meant to discuss, talk, argue , debate and re-debate. A bit of getting over-worked happens, its a good thing to have a little tough skin on an internet forum.

Gav wrote: I have taken a back seat regarding the section recently and have just been looking in, but come on, it is a mess.

How is it a mess? It is certainly not as worse as it can get when there is no tennis being played ( e.g. like in December 2011).

Gav wrote: Who in their right mind would want to join this section and start contributing? If it was me looking in, I would run a mile.

Are you saying people who are here are not in their right mind? Shall this be taken as an insult to all posters? How do you define a right mind? If by right mind you want to say people who keep posting nothing more than " I love Roger", " I love Rafa", yes then certainly I am not right minded. A discussion/forum is no place for such right minded people to stay in for long. They come and leave. How many will have the passion to keep writing lines and lines of text discussing tennis on a very basic plain no-color-no-picture-website. If you think they should stay, then 606v2 should have been FBv2. People who have passion for the game will come and stay on 606v2. There is no better place, I can say that. I myself had left posting on 606v2 for sometime, but I came back.

You have moderators for the tennis sections. And they do a good job.

Gav wrote: Maybes you are happy to have a player bashing section, because that is what tennis on v2 has become. Its a joke.

I keep reading many posters saying this "bashing" for certain player(s). Now I just don't understand what is this player bashing? Can you tell me what is the meaning of player bashing? And since you have mentioned it in this thread, can you point out how this thread is used for bashing any player and who are the posters bashing which player and using what comment?

I just want to be clear on this bashing definition. I have never used it in my comments to complain about the posts here, so I just don't know what it means in the context?

ROTLA, take a couple of days off, come back and take a look through the articles over the last3 months and see for yourself just what player bashing is all about.

The worst of it for me was the literal demonising of Nadal as the one player regarded as killing the game and bringing physicality as some kind of evil weapon. You may not see the wood for the trees as so much has been written negatively about him, that its almost par for the course on a daily basis.

If you post regularly on here, its a big possibility that many have become anesthetised to the constant Anti Nadal posts. Its not a bash per se anymore, but its more of a crusade to diminish his talents and relegate him to mediocrity. The fact that it comes from a base of Federer fans is sad but true and any neutral posters on here who value Nadal's contribution to tennis feel the need to defend him.

The arguments ensue and consideration for each other flies.

The only thing the mods can do is delete, but they can not stop the rot. Its up to everyone to be more impartial and try to bring this section out of the dark ages.

I hold my hand up, I'm not innocent and have contributed to part of its demise, but I try my best to bring a little balance but it falls on deaf ears most of the time.

The by-product of longer rallies is an exhausted opponent, if there are any fitness differences.

Not necessarily. I can't say I have seen an exhausted Federer or Murray when they have encountered Nadal. What you tend to find is that Murray and Federer try to end the rallies with winners or forcing an error off Nadal once they feel they are in control or a position to execute such shots. Nadal himself can allow this. v Murray MC 2011 is testament to that.

The Djokovic matches (in 2011 and 2012) seem to contradict that playing extra shots allows him to win. Federer-Djokovic matches contain perhaps more 'flatter' rallies.

Well the one shot for me which has won Nadal countless titles os the BH up the BH deuce court. This generates either over-cooked CC FH's or BH's or under cooked ones. If the ball is then sent back over with the same pace, you find this gives Nadal the advantage as he will go longer on length and hit it even harder. What Djokovic did so well in Madrid and Rome was hit flatter winners when Nadal went to the BH. CC and down the line. This is something that Nadal rarely experience and for me was a large part of the success Djokovic had other Nadal last year.

legendkillarV2 wrote:I always go back to the FO 2009 when Soderling was able to play 2-3 flat shots and just demolish and hit through Nadal.

Soderling's power was underestimated on that day.

Agreed

legendkillarV2 wrote:What players have learnt from Nadal is that throwing 5 groundstrokes into the Federer BH will either draw an error or a return short enough for a clean winner or point winning shot. To most fans it is the dullest of tactics and to most shows no real signs of talent or imagination for that matter.

Federer can and does use his BH to pass opponents. The topspin from Nadal is a significant difference.

Again I agree. Clay is a killer for Federer's BH

legendkillarV2 wrote:What I find also interesting is that he makes no mention of conditions or surfaces which for me would change his odds quite dramatically. Clay brings out his how array of shots. Hard and faster courts restrict this and means he plays more passively because the 5 shot window becomes a 3-4 shot window. Indoor surfaces he has maybe a 2-3 or even as less as a 1 shot window to either draw the error or win the point and that has proven with his record indoors that it completely disrupts his game.

Surfaces homogenization is one aspect which has been mentioned allowing more or less the same style of play to be executed on all types of courts.

Well Nadal indoors tends to be more attacking. As a result he plays into the hands of opponents. I would've been interested to have seen Nadal in Paris where the court played like treacle.

legendkillarV2 wrote:It shows intelligence, but to some shows lack of imagination.

To manoeuvre your opponent, does require both, as well as split-second decision making. [/quote]

Agreed

Jubbahey wrote:ROTLA, take a couple of days off, come back and take a look through the articles over the last3 months and see for yourself just what player bashing is all about.

No jubba, you have to explain it to me what exactly is player bashing? I see many posters complaining about it. And you too can see it. So please tell me what is player bashing and who are the usual culprits and what did they say? Now make it clear for once and for all.

Jubbahey wrote:The worst of it for me was the literal demonising of Nadal as the one player regarded as killing the game and bringing physicality as some kind of evil weapon. You may not see the wood for the trees as so much has been written negatively about him, that its almost par for the course on a daily basis.

Why is it worst for you anyways? Why do you have to be so sentimental about a player you have never met in your life, that some random people talking on an internet forum is getting so bad for you? How did you conclude this "demonizing of Nadal"? Did anyone say that Nadal is Demon? Did anyone say physicality is his evil weapon? How did you come to that conclusion on demonizing and evil weapon? Why does it hurt you so much that a lot of negative is being written about nadal? Do you think what all are being written is false? If you think so, debate with the people and silence them with your reasoning. Why raise a cry for it and feel hurt yourself. Nadal isn't getting affected you see, so whatever happens, neither will you get to meet Nadal because you defended him through all the tough posters nor those negative writing posters will get to punch nadal in the face. So why cry so much for nothing.

Jubbahey wrote:Its not a bash per se anymore, but its more of a crusade to diminish his talents and relegate him to mediocrity. The fact that it comes from a base of Federer fans is sad but true and any neutral posters on here who value Nadal's contribution to tennis feel the need to defend him.

Again, how is it s crusade to diminish his talent? Will Nadal's telent will get diminished just because some people talk something here. What mediocrity? Why do you think its impossible that Nadal's talent is already about mediocre and hence people are trying waste efforts. If you feel the need to so much defend him, the go ahead defend him. But don't raise a cry like people are bashing nadal. But trying to be a devil's advocate won't be any easy on you.

Anyways no one asked you to defend Nadal, not even Nadal did it. If its your choice, then so be it. Why complain to others about the choice that you made?

Jubbahey wrote:Its up to everyone to be more impartial and try to bring this section out of the dark ages.

I hold my hand up, I'm not innocent and have contributed to part of its demise, but I try my best to bring a little balance but it falls on deaf ears most of the time.

Great. Then tell me please what do you want to do on 606 about Nadal? write poems, posts Good luck messages? What exactly?

raiders, its quite simple.
The section is full of the same regurgitated crap posted on a regular basis.
Player A is the death of tennis
Player B has no charm or charisma
I think Player C only wins because of peds
Player D choked yet again and has no mental strength.
Player E has no talent and relies on physicality.

606v2 tennis section is a player bashing section. All of our other sections are growing apart from tennis. Why do you think that is? Even Im sick of reading the same rubbish. No wonder lydian is leaving, if I was a normal member in this section (not admin) I would leave also.

Raiders, do you not agree that Nadal gets far more negative comments about him than other players (even Murray!)? And 90% of these have been said before - it's the sheer repetition of it.
Whether that constitutes 'bashing' I don't know - we all probably have a different definition of that.
Obviously it doesn't diminish his talent/accomplisments, as such, but it seeks to diminish them within the context of this forum.
If I were to say that I like the physical nature of Rafa's game and that I'm not overly concerned by his time between points and MTOs, then I run the risk of being told I'm not a 'true' fan of tennis etc. Those sort of arguments cannot be reasoned against and it ends up getting personal - you're ignorant, I'm out of my mind, she's putting words in my mouth and he's an extemist. Welcome to the 606V2 tennis section.

If someone new came on this board and said "I don't watch much tennis but I love Rafa's never-give-up attitude and his top-spin cross court FH and he's a good-looking bloke as well" then that should be OK - the response should be 'good for you, welcome to the board, enjoy the tennis', but it wouldn't be, would it?

Gav wrote:606v2 tennis section is a player bashing section. All of our other sections are growing apart from tennis. Why do you think that is? Even Im sick of reading the same rubbish. No wonder lydian is leaving, if I was a normal member in this section (not admin) I would also.

Completely disagree I am afraid. Who wrote this article to start with? Are we supposed to read and not argue that Physicality is a myth? "Fine CC, you are right" so we can have a "balanced" tennis forum, regardless whether it's full of non-sense or not?

I also wish we coudl move on and talk about more subtle tennis debates...We should not have started this thread cause frankly it was an invitation to hear the same stuff again and again. but I am afraid, no side is repeating the same stuff, without the other side replying to it and as mentioned, in that case it's CC and Lydian's "clan" who started it and therefore the one who constantly repeat the same non-sense. But they like to make us believe that we are the ones repeating the same stuff.

If I start a thread saying all surfaces play extremely different nowadays, I have got to be prepared to get counter arguments. And if I keep posting it everywhere, then I may hear the same answers everywhere...but don't blame the others for responding.

I am afraid Lydian left again, cause he simply lost the argument. He would be too happy to have stayed on and ridicule us if he had a valid point.

JuliusHMarx wrote:..Obviously it doesn't diminish his talent/accomplisments, as such, but it seeks to diminish them within the context of this forum.

But when after all those debates Jubba creates this morning a thread asking us to sort the top players by talent and physique....isn;t he again inviting to hear honest views which for some reasons are going to be controversial for some?

Think about it JHM. Who really wants those debates? Do you really think they are fed up of hearing the same stuff again and again?

Does it really matter who starts it? Whether it's this thread or the 'Poor Sportsmanship' thread, the outcome is so predictable I could probably write everybody's reply for them.
Isn't there a point where people say 'Hang on I've already read this before, I can't be bothered to reply again' or 'Hang on, I've written this before, I can't be bothered to write it again'.

It's seems like the fun of chatting about tennis has been replaced by an over-powering desire to be 'right' and 'win' an argument against 'the other side'. Obviously this comes from both sides, and the majority of posts seem to have that approach.

How many of us can honestly reflect and say "Hey I really enjoy most of what's on this forum". Not me anymore.

To a certain extent, the Nadal bashing is on the cusp of 'freedom of speech' on 606v2 vs. the overall 'attractiveness' of 606v2 Tennis.

From a moderation perspective, being 'heavy-handed' with one side or another, evokes either cries of censorship or Federer worshipping, both of which seem extreme versions.

Moderation, and I think JHM will agree with it, is fairly relaxed, and steps in when there is poster bashing, rather than player bashing. It is always driven by the desire for 'balance', perhaps with subjective connotations.

One option which always seems to be ignored is the ability to distance oneself from 'provocation' and discuss topics less emotionally. I have yet to see such an approach.

In the Fedal case, this is very obvious. Both sides of the great 'divide' see themselves as defenders of faith and will start a crusade (i will not use the more ubiquitous word here to avoid creating yet another controversy).

Tennis as a sport gives us hours of pure joy, yet the primitive emotions of 'fight-or-flight' seem very clearly etched in discussions on 606v2, when 'favourite' players are involved.

I have found the last set of comments to be the most frustrating.

Nothing but sheer petulance.

Lets just clarify some things on this thread.

This thread for me was started as a very blinkered viewpoint of Federer beat Nadal and so must mean that 'physicality' does not peservere in tennis because the perception is that Roger is just talent and Rafa is fitness. It was always going stir some very strong views from both camps of fans.

There have been 2 arguments on this thread.

Firstly CC and ROTLA have been playing one upmanship. They agreed to disagree and kept on baiting each other back on to this thread to further carry on their argument. So many times both walked away and yet found themselves back at each others throats.

Tenez and lydian I mean my god they bicker and then make up and find a mutual diplomacy between them and then almost try and kill each other. On this thread both of them got the wrong end of the stick and ended up back on here driving each other mad!

What does grind my gears is people saying 'The tennis section is bitchy' 'The tennis section is not growing' I mean what utter crap. It does a dis-service to Julius and laverfan's work. Julius has a cryptic thread which is fun as well as his witty remarks on threads like this that tries to restore some balance and harmony. laverfan is always posting thought provoking comments and questions for all tennis fans to comment on. Under their stewardship I think they have superbly to allow debating and also allow situations to dissolve themselves.

Anyone who watches tennis knows it is not so black and white. If you look back on this thread Tenez has acknowledged Nadal can attack. Why do we always remember his more negative remarks instead of some partial comments he does make about Nadal? Yes he isn't his greatest fan, but he is not the one starting threads slating the guy!

All players have their fans and admiriers, but they also have their detracters and critics. Flip me you get that in any sport for crying out loud!

All I implore is that posters when they feel agitated and very aggressive, to take 5 and not comment on the thread. A fresh pair of eyes on any subject matter will never hurt.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Does it really matter who starts it?

It does matter if those complaining about the repetitive content are those constantly inviting those kind of debates. I am not interested in your cryptic clue thread and you don;t see me post there. It's simple enough isn't it? So I find it rich that those complaining about the same things being repeated again and again are those repeating the same stuff!

JuliusHMarx wrote:How many of us can honestly reflect and say "Hey I really enjoy most of what's on this forum". Not me anymore.

Well, tennis is about a game with a ball going back and forth over a net. Subjects are going to be limited about it.

What I notice however is that it;s the Nadal fans who are complaining. Is it a coinidence that he lost again just last week? Djoko fans, for instance, seem a bit more mature about it all and don't have this constant need to convince the world "their player is more talented than our player" or as NITB says my dadd is...

legendkillarV2 wrote:Julius ...as well as his witty remarks on threads like this

Oh, you old flatterer. What are you doing this evening?

Tenez, I thought it was Gav, myself and LF that were complaining.

But I agree that tennis does have it's limitations for discussion, especically with such an unchanging top 4 (that's not an invitation for anyone to discuss that!)

I'm fairly sure Nadal fans would say it's Fed fans who have a constant need to convince the world Rafa has very little talent - and so it goes, ad infinitum, both sides never attacking, only ever defending (that's not an invitation for anyone to discuss that either - seriously!!)

JuliusHMarx wrote:Tenez, I thought it was Gav, myself and LF that were complaining.

But I agree that tennis does have it's limitations for discussion, especically with such an unchanging top 4 (that's not an invitation for anyone to discuss that!)

I'm fairly sure Nadal fans would say it's Fed fans who have a constant need to convince the world Rafa has very little talent - and so it goes, ad infinitum, both sides never attacking, only ever defending (that's not an invitation for anyone to discuss that either - seriously!!)

That's what you think.............

laverfan wrote:To a certain extent, the Nadal bashing is on the cusp of 'freedom of speech' on 606v2 vs. the overall 'attractiveness' of 606v2 Tennis.

From a moderation perspective, being 'heavy-handed' with one side or another, evokes either cries of censorship or Federer worshipping, both of which seem extreme versions.

Moderation, and I think JHM will agree with it, is fairly relaxed, and steps in when there is poster bashing, rather than player bashing. It is always driven by the desire for 'balance', perhaps with subjective connotations.

One option which always seems to be ignored is the ability to distance oneself from 'provocation' and discuss topics less emotionally. I have yet to see such an approach.

In the Fedal case, this is very obvious. Both sides of the great 'divide' see themselves as defenders of faith and will start a crusade (i will not use the more ubiquitous word here to avoid creating yet another controversy).

Tennis as a sport gives us hours of pure joy, yet the primitive emotions of 'fight-or-flight' seem very clearly etched in discussions on 606v2, when 'favourite' players are involved.

With great respect, the forum IS the sum total of the posters at any time. If that sum total is a bunch of complete twerps, then that is 606v2 tennis.
If you tried to force a bunch of numpties to have intelligent dialogue we'll they'll fail and you won't get anywhere.

In the end, this forum is the best it can be unless everyone became capable of making it better. You're better off with the group you have who, let it not be forgotten, do not swear, threaten or libel each other, and who are all passionate about tennis.

We are sports fans which means we are by definition slightly defective in some innocuous ways. Let us celebrate our defects by arguing over trivial matters in a fairly polite manner. To expect otherwise is to invite disappointment and an empty forum.

First up I started this topic to redress the balance somewhat. We have heard ad infinitum about the physicality in Nadal's game being the reason chiefly why Federer has such a losing streak and I wanted to put across my opinion on it. In my original post did I name posters or berate them? No. True it descended downhill but I did try to keep the topic from getting over-heated. Sadly, it failed but I posted this topic in good faith and never did a player-bashing job on anyone but it turned into one because the subject matter was ....Rafa Nadal. I'll think again before posting another topic here if it is annoying people so much.

Completely bogus OP so I steered well clear of this thread and the "debate".

Frankly this "debate" just tends to be Nadal fans denying that his (hitherto unprecedented for a tennis player) physique plays a crucial part in his success - a risible position to take and not really worth comment IMO. In this case this provocative thread was started by a Murray fan - another recently bulked up retriever, so one can see the vested interest there.

So, I've stayed away from this thread and not commented. This is remarkably easy to do - zero effort required on my part.

There are legitimate concerns about the state of play regarding doping, sportsmanship, increased importance of endurance and playing conditions in tennis and to choke discussion of these topics one by one because one player's fans gets "offended" - well that doesn't seem to me a great path to take for a forum for discussion.

JuliusHMarx wrote:
I'm fairly sure Nadal fans would say it's Fed fans who have a constant need to convince the world Rafa has very little talent - and so it goes, ad infinitum, both sides never attacking, only ever defending (that's not an invitation for anyone to discuss that either - seriously!!)

Yes but the proof is in the pudding! Look at this thread and look at this morning Jubba's new thread, just to start with. I would not mind listening to their plea if they really didn't want to enter those debates. However, they create them, as if there was not enough of it. They do love discussing those subjects. Last time I created a Physical thread was 1 year ago apparently, according to my ennemies! So hardly looking to rehash the same thing again and again. No one is actually arguing about who has more talent than who.....except the Nadal fans...all the others know the answer to that question. But because they also know the answer themselves they start to twist our words like I say Nadal has 0 talent and Fed 100%. It's those kind of poor argumenting that drags those threads ad infinitum and finally because they realise they were wrong from day 1 they end up complaining about this forum being unbalanced with posters repeating the same stuff without realising they are actually part of the problem, if not the origin.

LF herself was happily participating to this "physical" discussion, so I woudl find it very hard to believe she complained about it.

Tenez wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:
I'm fairly sure Nadal fans would say it's Fed fans who have a constant need to convince the world Rafa has very little talent - and so it goes, ad infinitum, both sides never attacking, only ever defending (that's not an invitation for anyone to discuss that either - seriously!!)

Yes but the proof is in the pudding! Look at this thread and look at this morning Jubba's new thread, just to start with. I would not mind listening to their plea if they really didn't want to enter those debates. However, they create them, as if there was not enough of it. They do love discussing those subjects. Last time I created a Physical thread was 1 year ago apparently, according to my ennemies! So hardly looking to rehash the same thing again and again. No one is actually arguing about who has more talent than who.....except the Nadal fans...all the others know the answer to that question. But because they also know the answer themselves they start to twist our words like I say Nadal has 0 talent and Fed 100%. It's those kind of poor argumenting that drags those threads ad infinitum and finally because they realise they were wrong from day 1 they end up complaining about this forum being unbalanced with posters repeating the same stuff without realising they are actually part of the problem, if not the origin.

LF herself was happily participating to this "physical" discussion, so I woudl find it very hard to believe she complained about it.

I think this is a fair complaint; had I or Tenez, or another known supporter of the Federer style started it then ok, but it wasn't.

I also think it gets nasty when people quote Nadal himself to show he recognises the reality of the situation. That seems to up the ante which leads to twisting, such as playing the same shot 20 times (Rafas own words) is "outsmarting", or Tenez's example of misrepresenting the skill rating. Then finally someone decides that it's awful that these Federer fans keep bashing Rafa.

Tenez wrote:No one is actually arguing about who has more talent than who.....except the Nadal fans...all the others know the answer to that question. But because they also know the answer themselves they start to twist our words like I say Nadal has 0 talent and Fed 100%. It's those kind of poor argumenting that drags those threads ad infinitum and finally because they realise they were wrong from day 1 they end up complaining about this forum being unbalanced with posters repeating the same stuff without realising they are actually part of the problem, if not the origin.

So let me get this straight...

606v2 is divided into "others" and "Nadal fans". Is it? Who did the dividing?

The "others" "know" who has the most talent and so do the Nadal fans. (I'm beginning to lose it a bit here. Who is it that has the most talent?) But because the Nadal fans agree with the others they use poor arguments to twist your words? (Are you an "other" or a "Nadal fan"?) But then they realise that they have been wrong all along..... Na... I'm afraid you've lost me.

Apparently it was an invitation

As I've said before, I personally don't object to negative comments on any player, but the repetition from both sides, bores me to tears.

Do we really need to 'win' every thread?

It is not possible, when a thread is started that rehashes old ground, yet again, that we all 'do a reckoner' and just give it a miss. Or that we try not to turn a different thread into one that rehashes old ground. Or that we don't use 'he started it' as a reason to rehash old ground.

Or that we welcome any new posters, regardless of who they support, rather than ending up saying e.g. you're not a true tennis fan, or you're an evil extremist (as two absurd examples that stick in my mind).

(Again, I'm addressing this to everyone, not just those recently involved on this thread)

JuliusHMarx wrote:
As I've said before, I personally don't object to negative comments on any player, but the repetition from both sides, bores me to tears.

That's certainly fairer.

Tenez wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:
As I've said before, I personally don't object to negative comments on any player, but the repetition from both sides, bores me to tears.

That's certainly fairer.

Sorry, it's what I meant along - apologies if that didn't come across earlier.

The repetition IS incredibly boring, but inexplicably popular.

Perhaps there should be a sticky for old chestnuts like this so that people who start provocative threads in this vein could be referred there? Consider it a walled garden if you like... or a padded cell?

I think what we all have to learn from this is that it is okay to have differing views, but if you have expressed that view eloquently and forcibly on a thread once or twice then you have made your point and it is going to end in arguments if the same points are just rehashed in a one upmanship style again and again.

Everyone ceases to read the long posts or to concede that good points are made on each side of the divide and just homes in on the ongoing argument between posters.

time please wrote:I think what we all have to learn from this is that it is okay to have differing views, but if you have expressed that view eloquently and forcibly on a thread once or twice then you have made your point and it is going to end in arguments if the same points are just rehashed in a one upmanship style again and again.

Everyone ceases to read the long posts or to concede that good points are made on each side of the divide and just homes in on the ongoing argument between posters.

True, but that chances of this happening are pretty miniscule!

JuliusHMarx wrote:Raiders, do you not agree that Nadal gets far more negative comments about him than other players (even Murray!)? And 90% of these have been said before - it's the sheer repetition of it.

Yes Nadal gets far more negative comments about him than anyone. I agree. But what do to, when Nadal himself brings negativity in tennis. So he gets what he is sowing. Yes its repetition, just like what Nadal does, repeatedly keep hitting CC forehand to break down the opposition, repeatedly use gamesmanship to win, repeatedly break rules. There are lot of repeatedly same things happening all the time. This is why its called circle of life.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Whether that constitutes 'bashing' I don't know - we all probably have a different definition of that.
Obviously it doesn't diminish his talent/accomplisments, as such, but it seeks to diminish them within the context of this forum.

I myself never figured out what is this player bashing that a lot of posters keep complaining about. But i never complain about it. I believe anything what comes to bashing is weak era theories. Nothing looks worse than that attempt which tries to diminish lot of great players of the past just to glorify the current crop. But I'm okay with that too, they are all entitled to their opinion.

JuliusHMarx wrote: If I were to say that I like the physical nature of Rafa's game and that I'm not overly concerned by his time between points and MTOs, then I run the risk of being told I'm not a 'true' fan of tennis etc. Those sort of arguments cannot be reasoned against and it ends up getting personal - you're ignorant, I'm out of my mind, she's putting words in my mouth and he's an extemist. Welcome to the 606V2 tennis section.

See this: If I were to say that I like extreme nazi views and that I'm not overly concerned with their inhuman policies of mass murder, racism etc then I run the risk of being told I'm not a 'true' supporter of humanity. See how stupid this 'true' support claim sounds like. Likewise if you are going to support a player that is against tennis then how do you claim you are a true tennis fan. If you do, you are bound to face heat.

Anyway who asked you to support such a tainted player? It was all your choice. Even with this choice you will be allowed with your opinion and share enjoyment in whatever you find. Its completely fine if you enjoy tennis and your favorite play and his game and his success. But then if also you want to be called a 'true' tennis fans and put your claim how great your player is thats the time it may get tough for you. You may support any nazi view, no one will care. But if you are going to put it forward in a court of law saying how great it is, you are bound to face heat.

JuliusHMarx wrote:If someone new came on this board and said "I don't watch much tennis but I love Rafa's never-give-up attitude and his top-spin cross court FH and he's a good-looking bloke as well" then that should be OK - the response should be 'good for you, welcome to the board, enjoy the tennis', but it wouldn't be, would it?

This is how most responses are till they keep saying what you just mentioned. No one has a problem with this. But when someone brings out points like Nadal's time-breaking rules is perfectly fine, its just his habit, then this doesn't remain the same thing. He has raised a point and he will have to answer that. If they fail to stay in the debate, they start crying "player bashing".

raiders_of_the_lost_ark wrote:Yes Nadal gets far more negative comments about him than anyone. I agree. But what do to, when Nadal himself brings negativity in tennis. So he gets what he is sowing. Yes its repetition, just like what Nadal does, repeatedly keep hitting CC forehand to break down the opposition, repeatedly use gamesmanship to win, repeatedly break rules. There are lot of repeatedly same things happening all the time. This is why its called circle of life.

If you will excuse me, I would just like to say that that is one of the most childish posts I have read here.

You now are prolonging an argument for the sake of being argumentative imo. I am really sorry that I said earlier in this thread that I agree with you on many issues - you've just completely lost me with this.

I can't believe their are still issues posters choose to argue on.

"A player that's against tennis"? Is that the same as "Death of tennis"?
If you really think that any Rafa fan, by definition, cannot be a 'true' tennis fan (I think that's what you're saying) then it's fair to say we look at things very differently on that point.
I'm not entirely convinced that anyone gets to define what a 'true' tennis fans is and expect everyone esle to agree.

Presumably fans of McEnroe were also not 'true' tennis fans?

Interesting though that you compare being a Rafa fan to being a nazi.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Interesting though that you compare being a Rafa fan to being a nazi.

monkey see monkey do, I wonder who he he could have picked up this nasty habit from

JHM... IIRC, Socal has labelled some Federer fans as 'extremists'.

Tenez wrote:LF herself was happily participating to this "physical" discussion, so I woudl find it very hard to believe she complained about it.

The quotes from 'Rafa' are meant to reflect what he states in his biography, good, bad or ugly. I am not interpreting any of the quotes. LK and I have very civilly approached it and discussed it. The abstract definition of 'physicality' and its specifics involved in long matches, slides down the slippery slope of subjectivity.

I, to echo JHM, am tired of Fedal debates, and each side working out how to put the 'other' player' down. There are numerous articles on this subject. there is the usual Wee Keira stuff, the 2006 vs 2011 comparisons. Federer better in 2006 vs not. The Top 4 from 2006 get dragged into debates, h2hs get quoted.

As Lydian says, round and round the mulberry bush we go.

I wish 606v2 would discuss Tennis, more in here and now, than focus on GOATness discussions, couched in different titles. I do comment on threads to try and make posters discuss varying subjects, but this sub-context seems to be a very debatable topic on which reams and reams can be written, with no clear conclusion being possible.

This is leading to 'poster' fatigue, which is what Gav and JHM allude to.

BTW, did anyone know Kleybanova is coming back on tour after Hodgkin's Lymphoma? I have yet to see such a triumph being noted on v2. Yes, I know it is WTA, a 'lower' class of tennis, but I marvel at her determination to continue to play. I have purposefully refrained from an article so I can laud someone else on 606v2 for noticing such an event, but alas, no.

Yes of course LF, your talking of physicality in tennis is less boring when coming from you than me or other posters.

Laver - can I ask that you or JHM do a MOTD thread a bit like pottiella's brilliant posts on the 'old board'?

I would offer, but a) I am not around every day b) my knowledge of the whole tour is not as comprehensive as many so I don't think I would do the pre match blurb justice.

You will still have the old Fedal debates - but hey they are not the most popular players for decades for nothing and they are still the two that most will want to discuss.

Yes, I did notice taht Kleybanova is just coming back on tour. Tremendous determination. The very best of luck to her and I hope that she stays healthy and enjoying her tennis.

Tenez wrote:Yes of course LF, your talking of physicality in tennis is less boring when coming from you than me or other posters.

It is boring, whether from me or someone else, because there is nothing new to add.

time please wrote:Laver - can I ask that you or JHM do a MOTD thread a bit like pottiella's brilliant posts on the 'old board'?

I would be more than happy to do these.

time please wrote:I would offer, but a) I am not around every day b) my knowledge of the whole tour is not as comprehensive as many so I don't think I would do the pre match blurb justice.

I would welcome any assistance, sporadic or consistent.

time please wrote:You will still have the old Fedal debates - but hey they are not the most popular players for decades for nothing and they are still the two that most will want to discuss.

The discussion needs to be positive, imvho, rather than the desire to make one bigger than the other. They are two of the top players and their individuality is a sight to behold.

time please wrote:Yes, I did notice taht Kleybanova is just coming back on tour. Tremendous determination. The very best of luck to her and I hope that she stays healthy and enjoying her tennis.

Thank you.

I will certainly help laver - won't be around much this weekend or some of next week, but am happy to do a few days of Miami

I might need some insight/help into some of the players recent performances for blurb

I didn't realise my little article this morning could cause so much postulation as to its reason for being. LOL

Raiders, if you don't understand the point at which criticism, constructive criticism becomes player bashing, then all we are going to do on here is become polarised utterly and completely, if not already.

What you may not realise is that, as Bogbrush has so comprehensively pointed out, a forum is the sum of its members and that sum is directly proportional to its style of contributions.

I am a member of other forums and the difference in the frequency of Anti-Nadal posts on here is striking in their quantity.
Very few articles address tennis in a way that can be talked about without regressing to the Fed V Nadal debate.

As Gav has illustrated, its boring to the extreme and not only forces other posters out (of which no sincere regrets have been expressed) but stops any fresh input as it scares them away. To openly savour another posters exit is probably the most repulsvie manner to have on a forum, but that is the result of polarization and its getting worse.

I was trying to bring something different to the forum in my article this morning, but all it gets is ridicule, apart from a couple of posters appropriate contributions, is there any reason you can give me that would attract my continuing presence here ? because I can't think why I am.

Jubbahey wrote:I didn't realise my little article this morning could cause so much postulation as to its reason for being. LOL

Raiders, if you don't understand the point at which criticism, constructive criticism becomes player bashing, then all we are going to do on here is become polarised utterly and completely, if not already.

What you may not realise is that, as Bogbrush has so comprehensively pointed out, a forum is the sum of its members and that sum is directly proportional to its style of contributions.

I am a member of other forums and the difference in the frequency of Anti-Nadal posts on here is striking in their quantity.
Very few articles address tennis in a way that can be talked about without regressing to the Fed V Nadal debate.

As Gav has illustrated, its boring to the extreme and not only forces other posters out (of which no sincere regrets have been expressed) but stops any fresh input as it scares them away. To openly savour another posters exit is probably the most repulsvie manner to have on a forum, but that is the result of polarization and its getting worse.

I was trying to bring something different to the forum in my article this morning, but all it gets is ridicule, apart from a couple of posters appropriate contributions, is there any reason you can give me that would attract my continuing presence here ? because I can't think why I am.

Please don't take this in a negative way, but from an outsider's perspective, your article was asking people to rate tennis players in a kind of top trumps manner.

It leads directly to "my player is more blah than your player" conversations which is a constant on this forum - what exactly is refreshing about that?

Federer has had plenty of back problems over the years and we saw it restrain him in Wimbledon 2010 and more recently in the US Open.

Regarding Nadal most people will see through his macho image and realise he was lucky that the ball moves so slow in this era allowing his 90% defensive game to somehow reap victories and top 2 ranking.