The 'Usual Tactic'

Some of us get popped when we point out the one dimensional approach Nadal has to take against Federer. We get told Nadal 'outsmarts' him, but of course that's not the case, he just runs him around to exhaust him while moonballing to the backhand.

Interesting to see Nadal join us in affirming this fact in his interview;

"He started the match playing more than unbelievable. His serve was with high percentage and I wasn't able to play my usual tactic against him with those conditions".

The "usual tactic". Revealing.

Yes except he doesn't actually say what that is. Besides the obvious, if not unexpected, gloating of the OP whenever there's a Fed win over Nadal (which lets face it is almost a Halley's comet moment), and I well remember him disappearing for months on 606v1 after a fed loss to Nadal, there's nothing new here. It was one match in an event outside a slam affected by adverse conditions, Roger will never beat Nadal where it counts in a slam again and hasn't done so for nearly 5 years now.

This isn't about the match at all and please don't misunderstand or distort it. It's about there being, as some of us have always said, that there is 'one tactic' and there's no process of 'outsmarting' going on, as someone or other seemed to think.

You agree now?

But the tactic could be to outsmart?

So BB you refer to the FH-BH tactic which often leads to Federer making errors or dropping the ball short to be put away. In the definition of outsmarting as 'getting the better of' you'll note in Chess that one player manipulates another into a position of weakness whereby they then strike to gain advantage. Nadal is usually able to play the same Chess game and expose Federer's weaknesses to then pounce. It's to Federer's weakness, not Nadal's, that he didn't have the ability to stop the one tactic being ruthlessly exploited against him every time. So yes, Federer gets outsmarted by that one tactic most of the time because he knows its coming every time and has generally no answer to it. But Nadal can never win on here. He's denigrated for ruthlessly exposing Federer's weakness.

Anyway, don't let me rain on your usual post-Fed win gloat parade.

I think that Nadal can only claim a true win against Federer if he hits every ball to his forehand. It's unfair and cruel to always hit the ball to Federers backhand. He must know by now that Federer doesn't like it, can't hit his best shots from that wing and is prevented from showing off his superior talent...

Of course if Nadal is to do this then its only fair that Federer hits a few of his forehands weakly into the centre of the court so that Nadal can show off with his best forehand winners too...

I was looking for answers why nadal never had that typical winning look the entire match. I don't remember seeing even a fist pump from the toro. If what he said in the interview is true, he must have been shocked and stifled by roger's "unbelievable" form from the get go. After that, he never had another chance to deliver his "usual tactic" and ended up losing? that's it? I wonder if he was indeed as shocked as the tennis fans.

I don't buy that common sense, he lifted his game to come back to 3-3 but after that he definitely got affected by the wind with his timing. I do agree he seemed abit flat and suspect he didnt feel comfortable before even being on court as he didn't have the usual positivity about him. I think this is a weird one-off given the conditions, let's see if they meet at Miami and how they get on in better and faster conditions.

'outsmarting' = 'getting the better of'

I think you'll that missing off the and of that definition rather altered the meaning. Shall we share the full definition with the forum?

outsmarting; to get the better of by cunning.

Now quite how playing one way ("the usual tactic") constitutes cunning is a new one. But 6/10 for trying.

hawkeye wrote:I think that Nadal can only claim a true win against Federer if he hits every ball to his forehand. It's unfair and cruel to always hit the ball to Federers backhand. He must know by now that Federer doesn't like it, can't hit his best shots from that wing and is prevented from showing off his superior talent...

Of course if Nadal is to do this then its only fair that Federer hits a few of his forehands weakly into the centre of the court so that Nadal can show off with his best forehand winners too...

Missing the point, as usual.

I'm not calling his plan into question, I'm simply noting that he himself says it is his one tactic, and making a bit of fun of lydians brave attempts to portray this narrow game as 'outsmarting', even to the point now of missing half the definition of the word off!

Too many lightweight articles doing the rounds at the moment to be brutally honest (this is by no means the worst). More consolidation needed.

And too much Rafa hatred for me on the forum as well.

You've gotta love Nadal's honesty

noleisthebest wrote:You've gotta love Nadal's honesty

The thing is that Rafa wouldn't see anything to argue about with this assessment, he's always said how it is with respect to Federer. It's just some fans desperate to invent a more virtuous legacy for Rafa who try to deny what's obvious with nonsense about 'outsmarting'.

He's outsmarting Federer by playing the right tactics, what else should he do? Play blindfolded?

I think the point is that it is not a clever or original or deeply-thought out tactic. It's a simple, obvious and effective one. Not a lot of 'smarts' required behind it, as it were.

Why can simple and effective not be smart?
It's a genius tactic, nadal has the best win rate against Federer than anyone.

It's not the tactic that's genius (it's an obvious tactic), it's the execution of it. Helped by being left-handed (i.e. no right hander has a chance of doing it) and heavy top-spin, which other lefties can't do.

Genius tactic or genius execution? Or both?
Either way it's genius.

lydian wrote:Yes except he doesn't actually say what that is.

With all due respect, I hope you are not being serious. Are you suggesting that there is some big mystery about what the tactic is and that the tactic he employes can reasonably be translated as "outsmarting" Roger?

Also, later you seem to suggest that even if the tactic amounts to relentless attack on Roger's backhand, that it can qualify under "outsmart" because

lydian wrote:[Federer] didn't have the ability to stop the one tactic being ruthlessly exploited against him every time.

But that is a very strange definition of "outsmart". It is almost like saying that Bolt outsmarts his opponents because he runs faster than them and he manages to exploit that one tactic every time. Or, to put it differently, with this kind of definition of "outsmart", one person could say that all he is is a top 100 player with lungs, the other person could say that he outsmarts his opponents, and they both could really be saying the same thing.

BTW, do not get me wrong, I do think Nadal is a smart player and I do think he is quite good at outsmarting his opponents, just do not think the word "outsmart" in its usual sense applies here.

BB, so Nadal has won 10 slams by never outsmarting people? Especially when he's probably the best clay courter of all time? A surface known for needing to build points and outwit opponents, and he's won all he has on clay without being able to outsmart opponents?

You know when you sit back, this thread isnt too bad but its just another one having a go at Nadal ultimately. Another one in a sea of them. Another thread of subtle or not so subtle put downs on the guy to reduce him to this ongoing theme of lungs and a racuqet.

What is really trying to achieved here outside of intellectual jousting? The continual denigration of Nadal.
Arguments put back and forth in layers of smart-a***'ery but denigration of Nadal nonetheless.
BB, arent even you getting tired of all this constant anti-Nadal stuff? Which is what it is. I know I am. I guess not for you as its modus operandi.

I agree HB. But then this forum has had an anti-Nadal focus and agenda since day 1. But then that needs no real working out...look at the joining date of the main protagonists. 606v2 opened its doors and hey presto, they had a brand new place to continue to vent their spleen at Nadal. Since April 2011 its daily upon daily denigration of the guy. The funny thing is that I'm not even THAT massive a fan of his actually, believe it or not, but I feel drawn into defending him against the constant tidal wave of daily negativity on here. Why do I do that...lord knows. But no more after today for sure. My defending actions just escalate how I come across as a Nadal 'fan' and I'm tired of that. There is so much more to tennis that this place being sunk under daily Fedalism...(as LF would say).

Drawing back, its the daily drip drip repetitive effect which is most damaging to the forum as a whole as well. Why? Because we're not really seeing new tennis members join in great numbers are we?
Many probably lurk around as guests seeing the same old topics of Nadal discussion and decide not to join. Unless they are Federer fans wishing to pile into the anti-Nadalism. You certainly wont get new Nadal fans joining....why should they? They might as go somewhere else. Of course there are the neutrals as well, but do neutrals want to be reading how Nadal does this or that everyday, why he's got no talent, always wasting time, cant outsmart anyone on a court, etc, etc.

But I'm sick to the back teeth of reading the same old stuff day in, day out. The same points written across all threads about how Nadal is a fake, just a pair of lungs, bad for the sport, talentless, moonballer with no guile, only peaks for slams *wink *wink, etc, etc, etc.

When you add it all up it creates an overall impression of a forum that has an agenda against one player because its relentless. Even if individual posts dont themselves cross the line, the big picture is clear. Yes free speech is great...but freedom should come with control. Self-control. And to that extent I hear where Socal and other members are coming from. Even neutrals like HB are saying there's too much hatred for Nadal on here. I've even heard in the past the arrogance of posters on here saying they are the life and blood of this place, that this place would be nothing without them. This they feel gives them carte-blanche to drive their point and agenda home repeatedly.

Its time to stop. Knocking Nadal every thread, every post needs to be given a rest or else this place is never going to grow and discuss the wealth of topics possible about tennis because it doesnt encourage people to post new threads. I know I cant be bothered, my motivation to do so when this forum is dominated by the anti-Nadal brigade isnt there at all, even to post non-Nadal topics. So...probably a waste of time saying all this, I know even this post will be roundly denounced and the anti-Nadal focus will continue unabashed. Dont let me stop you guys...please get back to doing what you do best, attacking one player and making the forum such a positive sphere of reading

PS. summerblues, thats all well and good analysing the ins and outs of "outsmarting" as a side discussion but the bigger picture argument here is to collectively attack Nadal's capability and success...as just about all threads about him are.

lydian, whilst I agree with the sentiments, I'm not sure what can be done about it. Maybe PM your entire post to Gav and see if he can come up with anything.

Or, as you say, just ignore/don't respond to stuff you don't like and post other stuff instead.

Thanks JHM.
To be honest I've lost the motivation to do proactive things like PM'ing MODs or ADMIN on this type of thing. Nothing will change.
I'll leave that for others to do.

It's only become tiresome because the truth of many of the arguments have come manifest. In particular, Djokovic coming along and beating Nadal by outlasting him has shown that without that advantage he struggles to assert his game. Until this there was no shortage of triumphant Rafa threads and it'll be the same should he get the upper hand again.

The real problem isnt Nadal anyway, it's that the centring of the game on conditions designed to promote his style has wrecked the balance of he sport, for that I admit I resent what he stands for and will be pleased to see it fall.

lydian wrote:PS. summerblues, thats all well and good analysing the ins and outs of "outsmarting" as a side discussion but the bigger picture argument here is to collectively attack Nadal's capability and success...as just about all threads about him are.

I can see what is bothering you and even as a Fed fan I would like to see more fans of other players in here as it would make for a livelier discussion.

However, in some sense I still do not understand all the doom and gloom of posters like yourself and say socal. This is an internet forum, you will get all kinds of people and the balance may not work out right, but as long as you can get a handful of people with whom you can discuss tennis reasonably you may as well ignore those who you find bothersome and enjoy whatever debate you get out of it. There are many posters on here that know far more about tennis that I will ever know and I have found it quite instructional to read their thoughts. Do I see that there are also many posters who have various agendas (and sometimes there is non-zero overlap between the two groups)? Sure, I do, but so what? It may be a downside of a forum like this that anyone can join in, but the upside is similar - anyone can ignore anyone too.

Along the same lines, I do not think questions of whether Nadal's success against Federer comes from outsmarting him or not are side discussion topics. I think those should be viewed as main discussion topics and all the stuff you complain about should be viewed as a side-issue (no matter how pervasive).

And for the "outsmart" topic, I will just assume that you do not really think that Nadal "outsmarts" Federer either but could not help defending the point just because you felt there needed to be some balance on the forum - so you went a bit over the top in one direction to counterbalance the excesses of the other side.

JuliusHMarx wrote:It's not the tactic that's genius (it's an obvious tactic), it's the execution of it. Helped by being left-handed (i.e. no right hander has a chance of doing it) and heavy top-spin, which other lefties can't do.

ANd the key to this tactic, is not the tactic itself but the energy needed to find the depth, the spin and cover the ground. Without that energy, the same tactic can be hammered like we saw in London a few months ago.

Now, again, some will see this comment as a "hatred" one versus Nadal...though it's simply a reality.

bogbrush wrote:It's only become tiresome because the truth of many of the arguments have come manifest. In particular, Djokovic coming along and beating Nadal by outlasting him has shown that without that advantage he struggles to assert his game. Until this there was no shortage of triumphant Rafa threads and it'll be the same should he get the upper hand again.

The real problem isnt Nadal anyway, it's that the centring of the game on conditions designed to promote his style has wrecked the balance of he sport, for that I admit I resent what he stands for and will be pleased to see it fall.

Yes, and to argue, we need 2 sides. Lydian is constantly arguing and repeating the same points too but his problem I feel is that he keeps losing the argument....Sorry but we can't help there.

I deeply understand Federer fans frustration.

Why?
Because I have the same frustration and dislike for Nadal's style. He's like a butcher hacking a beautiful piece.

But then again, you can't blame him. He's done best out of what he's been given.
And it's wrong to blame him for that.

Federer gets the glory for winning most slams, and for doing it by exhibiting the most elegant style of play.

No one can take it away from him.

Everyone in tennis world knows who's who. Forget about what paid pundits and journalists blab about.

Us fans know what it feels like when our player suffers a brutal loss, and it takes time for it to go.

I admit I'm still recovering from some of those losses, despite the fact that Nole totally owns Nadal now and beat him 7 or 8 times in a row.

Same with Federer fans, but probably worse, because Fed never turned it around in slams.

You just don't know, he may do it this year.

In the meantime, live and let live as much as you can

noleisthebest

I think you're getting a little confused. On another thread you have been describing why you don't like Federer. And now you have forgotton how many times Djokovic beat Nadal last year.

Also who is "blaming" Nadal for beating both Djokovic and Federer? Nadal doesn't beat Djokovic and Federer to inflict emotional trauma on their fans. You might get upset by it but thats your problem.

hawkeye wrote:noleisthebest

I think you're getting a little confused. On another thread you have been describing why you don't like Federer. And now you have forgotton how many times Djokovic beat Nadal last year.

Also who is "blaming" Nadal for beating both Djokovic and Federer? Nadal doesn't beat Djokovic and Federer to inflict emotional trauma on their fans. You might get upset by it but thats your problem.

Hawkeye,

no offence, but you are impossible to debate with, simply as all you want/are able to do is argue, bicker and moan. It's just the level I don't want to drag myself down to, so don't bother trying.

summerblues wrote:

lydian wrote:PS. summerblues, thats all well and good analysing the ins and outs of "outsmarting" as a side discussion but the bigger picture argument here is to collectively attack Nadal's capability and success...as just about all threads about him are.

I can see what is bothering you and even as a Fed fan I would like to see more fans of other players in here as it would make for a livelier discussion.

However, in some sense I still do not understand all the doom and gloom of posters like yourself and say socal. This is an internet forum, you will get all kinds of people and the balance may not work out right, but as long as you can get a handful of people with whom you can discuss tennis reasonably you may as well ignore those who you find bothersome and enjoy whatever debate you get out of it. There are many posters on here that know far more about tennis that I will ever know and I have found it quite instructional to read their thoughts. Do I see that there are also many posters who have various agendas (and sometimes there is non-zero overlap between the two groups)? Sure, I do, but so what? It may be a downside of a forum like this that anyone can join in, but the upside is similar - anyone can ignore anyone too.

Along the same lines, I do not think questions of whether Nadal's success against Federer comes from outsmarting him or not are side discussion topics. I think those should be viewed as main discussion topics and all the stuff you complain about should be viewed as a side-issue (no matter how pervasive).

And for the "outsmart" topic, I will just assume that you do not really think that Nadal "outsmarts" Federer either but could not help defending the point just because you felt there needed to be some balance on the forum - so you went a bit over the top in one direction to counterbalance the excesses of the other side.

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noleisthebest

You are funny! Your idea of a debate is to say "noleisthebest rafaistheworst" over and over and over again with your fingers in your ears and your hands over your eyes. If anyone disagrees with you you respond by being nasty.