Now what for England?

Taking the superb advice of Kipling to ignore the impostors of triumph and disaster, and acknowledging Triangulation's interesting article about False Dawns ( https://www.606v2.com/t25936-false-dawns-any-explanation?highlight=false )

Where should England go from here?

Unsurprisingly my priorities remain unchanged:

1. get the RFU issues sorted (and get SCW (literally) on board - or at least on a promise when his Olympic job is done)
2. Appoint Lancaster as chief coach
3. Analyse carefully the contribution of Farrell as backs coach. There is little or no creativity in the backs

and then dump Dickson and Botha...

GIve it to Lancaster

Rowntree is a key part of this set up. Keep him there as forwards coach.

Get Gustard as defence coach.

No massive changes...

But we need to look at Owen Farrell...as good as he has been...is he the creative outlook we want? This will be the biggest dilema...

GeordieFalcon wrote:...
Rowntree is a key part of this set up. Keep him there as forwards coach.
...

I'm sure that Gatland wants him as part of Wales backroom staff, i remember him being impressed in the last lions tour. So if he isn't kept on, or puts pen to paper with England, Gats will look to the WRU in signing him for a position in the Welsh setup.

QuickBall wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:...
Rowntree is a key part of this set up. Keep him there as forwards coach.
...

I'm sure that Gatland wants him as part of Wales backroom staff, i remember him being impressed in the last lions tour. So if he isn't kept on, or puts pen to paper with England, Gats will look to the WRU in signing him for a position in the Welsh setup.

Welsh kerching vs English kerching you mean?

Get Wood, Flood, Lawes, Care & Haskell back in pdq.
Try out a different centre combination.
Find a decent stand-in hooker.
Give Lancaster the summer games.
Spend more training time on passing and catching, and hanging onto the ball in the tackle.
Can't see Dickson, Botha, Robshaw being regulars.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Get Wood, Flood, Lawes, Care & Haskell back in pdq.
Try out a different centre combination.
Find a decent stand-in hooker.
Give Lancaster the summer games.
Spend more training time on passing and catching, and hanging onto the ball in the tackle.
Can't see Dickson, Botha, Robshaw being regulars.

Please explain why?

Quikckball

If Rowntree is not kept in the England setup...there will be a huge protest from England fans...

just a bit curious as to why the RFU haven't put that paper & pen infront of him, knowing that there is interest across the 7 bridge. I remember reading an article on the beeb about Englands backroom staff unsure about their future after the 6N.

Geez you sound like my old maths teacher.

Get Wood, Flood, Lawes, Care & Haskell back in pdq.
Wood for Robshaw (R not technically good enough, not enough pace). Flood for Farrell (Fa doesn't see able to spark an attacking game). Lawes too good to leave out. Care as we need someone to push Youngs. A backrow from Croft, Wood, Haskell and Morgon is class.
Try out a different centre combination.
Need more pace and guile to go complement Manu.
Find a decent stand-in hooker.
Hartley needs competition to keep him motivated (can vanish sometimes).
Give Lancaster the summer games.
He's done well over a limited number of games - still needs to prove himself versus the experienced Mallet.
Spend more training time on passing and catching, and hanging onto the ball in the tackle.
Nothing makes me sob more than watching rugby players wearing welding mittens or forgetting that the ball is most useful kept in hand.
Can't see Dickson, Botha, Robshaw being regulars.
Self explanatory.

QuickBall wrote:just a bit curious as to why the RFU haven't put that paper & pen infront of him, knowing that there is interest across the 7 bridge. I remember reading an article on the beeb about Englands backroom staff unsure about their future after the 6N.

Because it's an interim coach that's in place.

I do wonder if England would consider Shaun Edwards in the coaching team though.

Gatland even. There are rumours that there is a third undeclared candidate ...

I definitely think we need to look at what our attacking pattern really is and include the back 3 more into this. It has only been so far bosh it up with centres and forwards, which has been effective at times but we need to move on from this if we are actually going to be able to compete with the best. We have a solid platform to work from now and should continue to improve especially with the extra competition from Lawes, Wood, Flood and Care hopefully pushing on Farrell, Robshaw, Youngs etc to higher levels.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Geez you sound like my old maths teacher.

Get Wood, Flood, Lawes, Care & Haskell back in pdq.
Wood for Robshaw (R not technically good enough, not enough pace). Flood for Farrell (Fa doesn't see able to spark an attacking game). Lawes too good to leave out. Care as we need someone to push Youngs. A backrow from Croft, Wood, Haskell and Morgon is class.
Try out a different centre combination.
Need more pace and guile to go complement Manu.
Find a decent stand-in hooker.
Hartley needs competition to keep him motivated (can vanish sometimes).
Give Lancaster the summer games.
He's done well over a limited number of games - still needs to prove himself versus the experienced Mallet.
Spend more training time on passing and catching, and hanging onto the ball in the tackle.
Nothing makes me sob more than watching rugby players wearing welding mittens or forgetting that the ball is most useful kept in hand.
Can't see Dickson, Botha, Robshaw being regulars.
Self explanatory.

Most of this seems fair to me. Dickson needs to go, and we need to find a better second row partnership for the long-term. I desperately want to see Matt Garvey given a shot at this level as an enforcer type. I really hope Haskell comes back on fire as well, i think we've missed him.

We do need to look at other hookers. Hartley's been middling at best and we have no real depth. I'm still not convinced by Lancaster and Farrell - both Farrell's actually. I still think someone above Lancaster would have been preferable, although i can see it would undermine him now. A Farrell hasn't convinced me, but better backs coaches have failed to get our backline purring. O Farrell looks too limited to me. I think we need to try other options but keep him in the mix.

Robshaw has looked fine to me, and up to this level. But World Class? Maybe not. Deserves a little longer. Croft has looked a fantastic centre, and a decidedly average flanker. We need to work out how to use him or just get Haskell back at 6 asap. I think the latter option makes more sense.

I think you're wrong about SCW unless you see him in some kind of elite player performance/development role and even then it would be a very big ego to find space for. Not too bothered about Farrell snr much as I respect his abilities. It might be a golden opportunity to add to the coaching skills. I hope Lancaster isn't too adamant about keeping the trio in place as I think he's better than that. Rountree deserves his place so hope he stays.

Not sure Botha has much more to offer but deserves more time to progress, same with Dickson. This applies to others as well but they mostly should be given more opportunity to shine. Care will not get another chance unless he proves he has his demons under control. Don't share general opinion of Lawes. He has talent but I think he's a liability with some of his more aggressive traits. The brand has more to offer though and I get the feeling he may be maturing a bit but that's for further down the line. We should be using both Farrell and Flood as they offer contrasting styles which ought to be capitalised on from the bench.

The RFU management will not change significantly, I fear, so need them to keep as far away from the coaching setup as poss. Difficult though as they are the boss ultimately.

I think that if the RFU do not give Lancaster the job after finishing 2nd in the 6ns with the most inexperence team over all, then the entire RFU board should be sacked.

I agree with Botha not being in the squad long term, Dixson needs to be give a size 12 where it hurts the most, He must stop dithering at the break down.

Robshaw in my opinion as done a great job at captain in the 6ns and see not reason why he should not keep the cataincy in the summer tours.

Regarding Hooker i do think that Heartley need to be given challenge, some one to keep him on his toes.

With Owen Farrell doing well at 10 will Flood get another chance to play for England?

Scrum half is a real headache for England, Dixson not realy doing mutch wrong, but does seem a little slow at times moving the ball from the break down, Ben Youngs scored a try against Ireland so will give him a big confidence boost. But with Danny Care to come back into the squad will be hard to pick a first choice starter.

But most of all England now need to move forward to the summer tours and hopefully improve on what as happend in the 6ns. With Lancaster in charge, the summer is looking good.

Sorry, but Dickson did everything wrong. Dithering at scrum time and at the back of a ruck cost us 6 points and could have been much more.

His pass, his supposed asset, is turd as well.

I cannot remember a worse 9 for England

[quote="aitchw"]I think you're wrong about SCW unless you see him in some kind of elite player performance/development role and even then it would be a very big ego to find space for. Not too bothered about Farrell snr much as I respect his abilities. It might be a golden opportunity to add to the coaching skills. I hope Lancaster isn't too adamant about keeping the trio in place as I think he's better than that. Rountree deserves his place so hope he stays.

Not sure Botha has much more to offer but deserves more time to progress, same with Dickson. This applies to others as well but they mostly should be given more opportunity to shine. Care will not get another chance unless he proves he has his demons under control. Don't share general opinion of Lawes. He has talent but I think he's a liability with some of his more aggressive traits. The brand has more to offer though and I get the feeling he may be maturing a bit but that's for further down the line. We should be using both Farrell and Flood as they offer contrasting styles which ought to be capitalised on from the bench.

The RFU management will not change significantly, I fear, so need them to keep as far away from the coaching setup as poss. Difficult though as they are the boss ultimately.[/quote]

Board director with special control of elite performance (and watch Squeeky shoite himself)

If we change 10 and 12 now, we might as well go back and start again completely from scratch, as that would essentially change our entire game plan / style.

I know that some will say that isn't a bad thing, but at some point, we need to stop rebuilding, and actually start building.
That is done by giving combinations time to gel.

I agree that our attacking with ball in hand has been limited.
However, I also think that Farrell has it in him to distribute more.

I also think that if we setup so that our back 3 pop up in midfield from time to time, then we can use them as the attacking foil, whilst still have big, strong, defensively solid centres.
(Remember, Nonu was originally seen as a bish bash bosh merchant when he started playing for the All Blacks - now he is far more than just that)
I believe that our centres have the ability to add more to their game.

I'm not sure Robshaw will get dropped as captain, however, he doesn't appear to be a world class 7. He may be better at 6, but I don't see Croft getting dropped either.
We then have Wood and Haskell (probably) as the next in line in the back row, and again, neither are 7's.


I would play the Summer with a largely unchanged squad.
That will give us more of an idea of where we are.
It's harsh to judge this team too critically after just 1 tournament

AitchW wrote:
We should be using both Farrell and Flood as they offer contrasting styles which ought to be capitalised on from the bench.

This is one thing that I always struggle to decide on.
Farrell and Flood do have contrasting styles, but that is a double edged sword.

If Farrell gets injured, but the style is working, then having Flood on the bench is going to disrupt that.
However, on the flip side, if we need to change tactics, then it's good to have someone of a different style on the bench.

I suppose it depends on whether you want the bench options for injury / fatigue cover, or to allow styles to be changed during a game.
It's a tough call.

You also have to question how successful it would be bringing on Flood, while still having Barritt / Tuilagi as the centre partnership.
Would Flood be better served with a more elusive running type centre that he could put into space?

I think Flood is a sufficiently good player to play either way to instruction so makes a great bench alternative. Farrell doesn't have the skill set yet to do that. Sure if you're building around him then you might want a different centre pairing but we're not now are we?

George Ford reached the venerable age of 19 last Friday.

Ford had a good game again today too, but I still don't understand why he is being hailed as the messiah.

He is good, and potential international but put into perspective Lambie was playing super 15 rugby, and didn't he debut for SA at 18/19? There is no comparison for me!

Wow, there's a lot of support for dumping players and making wholesale changes for the Summer Tests, what's that all about?

I've just watched an England squad come together over the course of 8 weeks, with a lot of new personnel and a new coaching team, and I watched them put in improved performances, game-on-game for the first time since... well, I don't know when.

They actually finished the tournament in clear second place behind an excellent Wales side that could go on to be world class if they have a good Summer Tour to Aus, so what does everyone want?

Rip it up and start again?

Let's be sensible about this, Lancaster has done a good job, he should be given longer to see how much further he can develop the current squad, and how he can bring in young players on the fringes and give them experience without a wholesale cull of a squad that has exceeded everyone's expectations over the course of 8 weeks.

This has to be a process of creeping excellence, you can't get overnight success at this level.

Keep calm and carry on.

massive knee-jerk reaction on Dickson having a poor game IMO. Everyone was hailing him after he added impetus off the bench in the first two games, but one poor performance and suddenly we should get rid of him asap? Don't get that, sorry.

Botha's a trickier one, I like his energy, but he does make a lot of mistakes (mainly dropping the ball). I'd like to see Garvey, Lawes and Attwood given a go sooner rather than later. Parling was impressive.

To be honest I'm not sure I'd make many changes right now, though I'd like to see Flood on the bench ahead of Hodgson. Think Farrell's earned the right to keep the 10 jersey for now.

Get Farrell injured

Recall some 50 cap donkeys

Get the media and intrnet to turn against Tuilagi

End up playing the 5th/6th choice props

Lose the summer tour matches by 50+ points




Thats the usual plan isnt it?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:massive knee-jerk reaction on Dickson having a poor game IMO. Everyone was hailing him after he added impetus off the bench in the first two games, but one poor performance and suddenly we should get rid of him asap? Don't get that, sorry.

Botha's a trickier one, I like his energy, but he does make a lot of mistakes (mainly dropping the ball). I'd like to see Garvey, Lawes and Attwood given a go sooner rather than later. Parling was impressive.

To be honest I'm not sure I'd make many changes right now, though I'd like to see Flood on the bench ahead of Hodgson. Think Farrell's earned the right to keep the 10 jersey for now.

Can i assure you i was at least consistent in saying i thought Dickson was not up to this level, i stand by that. He's desperately poor and has shown that in all the games he's 'contributed'. I thought Youngs was woefully out of form at the start of the 6Ns but was pleading with Lancaster to bring him back for Dickson.

Agree entirely about Garvey and probably Attwood. Would be good to see them get a go.

Still got that sense of mischief running strong Peter...

I do wonder how many of the current squad will be missing from the SA tour though, it's been a hard season for a few of them and they may get rested over the summer.

From the WC, couple of weeks off, AP, HC, 6N, back to the AP and then to a Summer Tour?

Points 1, 4 & 5 may be strong possibilities...