How did Ireland collapse like that?

This is not an attack. Nor a wum. I have the deepest respect for Irish rugby with its giant strides over the last ten years.

Let me put it into context.
This has been a magnificent season so far on the HEC front for Ireland. But nationally, they have performed entirely inversely in relationship to the almost identically resourced Welsh.

Ok, the scrum was well-beaten, but in the second half why did disinterest spread through out the whole of the rest of the side from 6 to 15?

They just stopped playing and if England had had any sort of offensive game plan, the score could have been truly embarrassming.

Why is this?

Over the years, we have all become used to doggedness and resolve of Irish sides at Provincial level with all their great performances like Leinster/Saints last year, Munster/Saints earlier in the season and Ulster/Leicester earlier this year.

Is it that four games in four weeks is too much?
Do the players not have the same passion for the green as they have for their Provinces?
Was the talisman BOD needed that much.

I was disappointed for Ireland, but the Irish must still be in shock.

I think the Irish were missing the POC factor in the pack. His aggression and ability at the set pieces would have made a big difference and he has that ability to fire up whatever pack he's in. The Irish pack would have certainly not been so limp had he been screaming in their ears.

I also think Ireland are struggling for the right balance in the backrow as the Ferris/SOB/Heaslip option was too easily picked apart by England. Croft was getting to the rucks before the Irish players and making a nuisence of himself, Robshaw tackled them to stand still and Morgan carried through them. As a unit they just weren't at the races despite having a serious power advantage.

I think you've never played in a game where your scrum has been mangled if you think there was anything the rest of the team could do to stem the tide.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think the Irish were missing the POC factor in the pack. His aggression and ability at the set pieces would have made a big difference and he has that ability to fire up whatever pack he's in. The Irish pack would have certainly not been so limp had he been screaming in their ears.

I also think Ireland are struggling for the right balance in the backrow as the Ferris/SOB/Heaslip option was too easily picked apart by England. Croft was getting to the rucks before the Irish players and making a nuisence of himself, Robshaw tackled them to stand still and Morgan carried through them. As a unit they just weren't at the races despite having a serious power advantage.

But the contagion spread right throughout the team Sam.

Some really great players lost all self-respect and chucked the towel in. Not the characteristic I'd have expected from any Irish team of any era. It was more reminiscent of a losing French side of old - save the no open arguments amongst themselves.

I think the backs were still keen to play but your back division is generally only as good as the ball it gets. The only ball Ireland got was when England kicked it deep and straight to Kearney.

The forwards were looking a little rudderless at times I think they need a leader to boss them a bit more.

I think you've never played in a game where your scrum has been mangled if you think there was anything the rest of the team could do to stem the tide.

There's nothing you can do at the scrum but that is only one facet of the game and if you are losing there you have to try and make up the difference somewhere else. Wasps used to be great at that, they'd would take a beating in the scrum but show up brilliantly at the breakdown and have some clever tricks for the lineout.

How did they chuck in the towel,England could only score through their scrum.

Our defence held up and while we were clueless in attack this wasn't down to a lack of effort as it's been a consistent hallmark of Kidneys tenure as Ireland coach.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

There's nothing you can do at the scrum but that is only one facet of the game and if you are losing there you have to try and make up the difference somewhere else. Wasps used to be great at that, they'd would take a beating in the scrum but show up brilliantly at the breakdown and have some clever tricks for the lineout.

Yeah and if it was a dry day then we would have had a chance but the fact that the ball was such a bar of soap and Kidney had us kicking up and unders all day long both contributed to their being far more scrums than in an ordianry match.

Yeah and if it was a dry day then we would have had a chance but the fact that the ball was such a bar of soap and Kidney had us kicking up and unders all day long both contributed to their being far more scrums than in an ordianry match.

True the ball was a bar of soap but Kearney was getting you a good return on the up and unders. I was a bit suprised that Ireland didn't kick for the corners a little more, Farrell doesn't have the most precise kicking ball from hand and he was the only tactical kicker we had. When the game did go to tactical kicking Ireland were making the net gain in yards. When ROG came on I thought it really would be dropped into the England 22 at every opportunity but that never really happened.

You would't be surprised if you had watched much of Ireland over the last year or so,long aimless kicks up the middle or up n unders are the main way Ireland approach the kicking game these days.Only Declan Kidney can say why.

This isn't a discussion for the English.

Most Irish posters here have been brought up on a rising tide of optimism in rugby.

There was always this belief that the continuity will continue.

There is supposed to be a conveyor belt of talent through (which there is in all the HNs and France). But it requires a bit more from that.

Until a few more Irish posters come on to answer an extremely difficult question, I'll take no more part in this debate.

Except - will the Twickenham match have ant repercussions in the confidence of the Provincial sides in the HEC?

I think the....

I think the first thing you need to do is stop being disingenuous.

"Ireland surrender monkeys?"And "This is not an attack nor a WUM" is not really credible. You don't need the title wording you've selected to make the core point.

Maybe if you changed the title, you might get more people willing to debate whatever point it is you think they should debate.

In my view when the english scrum started annihilating the Irish pack in the second half there was no time to call a laager and refocus the team, POC's leadership might have made a difference at that stage.

When the momentum swings so much so suddenly it requires a strong leader to re address the situation and perhaps due to that their spirit just got borken and there was nobody around to address it.

Ireland were playing really well throughout the championship up until Mike Ross went off.

Suddenly every scrum, for or against Ireland, became an English penalty, or penalty try in one case.

There is only one thing Ireland need to take from that, they need to bring through some good young tightheads.

On the counter I don't think England should take too much from it as it was an unrealistic result. England weren't exceptionally better than Ireland, England made tonnes of mistakes just like Ireland in a ridiculously error ridden game.

Ireland knew that they need to find a back up tighthead, tey also know they need new centres.

I don't see that Ireland have learnt or lost anything from this match, that said neither have England.

Pot Hale wrote:I think the first thing you need to do is stop being disingenuous.

"Ireland surrender monkeys?"And "This is not an attack nor a WUM" is not really credible. You don't the need the title wording to make the core point.

Maybe if you changed the title, you might get more people willing to debate whatever point it is you think they should debate.

Your wish is my command Pot Hale.

But I draw a line at removing the "This is not an attack nor a WUM" opener.


But I see that Biltong just took magisterial control.

And I don't like that.

Ireland never surrender, they were just overpowered in a similar vein to the way England were in their Grand Slam quest last year. That's rugby and its why we all love it. Ireland are capable of dong the same next year but for now England have laid that one nicely to rest

Portnoy wrote:
But I see that Biltong just took magisterial control.

And I don't like that.

My apologies Portnoy, some posters found it condescending and I there for changed it, thank you for changing it to something more acceptable.

Lack of good leadership.

Absence of O'Connell rather than O'Driscoll since it was the forward pack who were in trouble. First half was fine. Second half was when the problems really emerged.

Heaslip is a guy who wants to be captain. He went missing. He needs to be dropped.

Best got found out after only his second match. A good leader is not just one who leads his troops successfully from the front in a victory, but also one who gathers them together when the Poopie is raining down in the trenches, and their backs are to the wall, and gets them through it. O'Connell has it. Best, it would appear, doesn't.

Poor ball from the scrum meant the backline never really got moving. C'est la vie.

POC - BOD and the lack of any progression going forward as a full complement of players. Welcome to the 2004 Club.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think the Irish were missing the POC factor in the pack. His aggression and ability at the set pieces would have made a big difference and he has that ability to fire up whatever pack he's in. The Irish pack would have certainly not been so limp had he been screaming in their ears.

I also think Ireland are struggling for the right balance in the backrow as the Ferris/SOB/Heaslip option was too easily picked apart by England. Croft was getting to the rucks before the Irish players and making a nuisence of himself, Robshaw tackled them to stand still and Morgan carried through them. As a unit they just weren't at the races despite having a serious power advantage.

Agree with this and as promising a talent that Ryan might be - I think he might be a weak scrummager in the engine room, he looks very light and lean for a lock.

Just to add to that, I think Mike Ross with O'Connell pushing behind him is a hell of a lot stronger than Tom Court with Donnacha Ryan pushing behind him - it wasn't just losing Ross for Court, it was who was behind them as well.

DoC was behind Court as far as I can remember,in fact all the apologists for Kidney who say he was right to pick DoC instead of Ryan say that DoC is a TH lock.

The coaching team have Ireland playing caveman rugby and they're not enjoying it. They're expending huge amounts of energy defending and then kicking the ball away. It's not a game that suits them. The players would probably be happy to do this if it got results but it doesn't. Their efforts have been in vain for three years now and as a result team morale is quite low, which makes it more likely they'll collapse like they did at the weekend.

The provinces on the other hand frankly look like they're playing for fun a lot of the time. They have more cohesion, more team spirit, and more direction and as a result they are far less likely to collapse. I remember Leinsters scrum was mangled against Clermont in the 2010 quarter final but we managed to win the game. It was mangled again in the next match away to Toulouse, and we lost but at least stayed within 9 points of them.

The problem with Ireland is the coaching. When an Ireland team implodes like that you know something is seriously wrong. It wasn't just another narrow defeat.

Just to add to that, I think Mike Ross with O'Connell pushing behind him is a hell of a lot stronger than Tom Court with Donnacha Ryan pushing behind him - it wasn't just losing Ross for Court, it was who was behind them as well.

I don't think Court is the start and the finish for the blame at the scrum. The Irish scrum wasn't looking that good in the first half though the collapse came in the second the pressure was on from the England forwards from the start. Healey didn't enjoy his time up against Cole (which will be a nice bit of revenge for Dan after last season) and the tight five in general just lacked that power. Who do Ireland have coming through to take on the mantle long term?

Portnoy wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think the Irish were missing the POC factor in the pack. His aggression and ability at the set pieces would have made a big difference and he has that ability to fire up whatever pack he's in. The Irish pack would have certainly not been so limp had he been screaming in their ears.

I also think Ireland are struggling for the right balance in the backrow as the Ferris/SOB/Heaslip option was too easily picked apart by England. Croft was getting to the rucks before the Irish players and making a nuisence of himself, Robshaw tackled them to stand still and Morgan carried through them. As a unit they just weren't at the races despite having a serious power advantage.

But the contagion spread right throughout the team Sam.

Some really great players lost all self-respect and chucked the towel in. Not the characteristic I'd have expected from any Irish team of any era. It was more reminiscent of a losing French side of old - save the no open arguments amongst themselves.

Maybe they were finally giving physical evidence that they had lost faith in their.................. bosses. Outsiders might call it a mystery why Ireland don't mimic the standards of the Provinces, but here in Ireland we know there is no mystery, there is a set of coaches that have outlived their usefulness...and other coaches that haven't even been present thoughout the campaign and need to be replaced!

No mystery - just on the tip of an England iceberg where much needs to change in the coaching set-up.

I'll also add that when Leinster made the comeback against Saints, they had the belief to do it because they knew they had a gameplan that worked if they got it right. They knew they could pile on scores against any team if they held onto the ball. They had a plan they believed in to follow.

Ireland don't. They play kick the ball away dross. What we saw at the weekend was a team that didn't believe at all that they could get back into the game. How could they turn the game around by kicking up and unders? You can't. Ireland were beaten with 20 minutes to go on the clock.

The problem is Kidney.

Are some people on here seriously suggesting that these professional highly paid players with the opportunity to play in the green shirt with their national pride didnt push as hard as they normally do because POC wasnt there to shout at them?

I find that a comical suggestion. I'd be very shocked if it were true. And if i found it was true, I'd say to those who need encouraging to play hard, "don't bother, youre dropped".

Absurd!

Clive, inspirational captains do make a difference.

clivemcl wrote:Are some people on here seriously suggesting that these professional highly paid players with the opportunity to play in the green shirt with their national pride didnt push as hard as they normally do because POC wasnt there to shout at them?

I find that a comical suggestion. I'd be very shocked if it were true. And if i found it was true, I'd say to those who need encouraging to play hard, "don't bother, youre dropped".

Absurd!

It's not absurd though is it and I don't see how its remotely 'comical', O'Connell has been well documented in the past as making everyone around him play significantly better hence being a Lions captain, second rows also play a role in the scrum and can make a big difference to the props in front of them.

How about giving some credit to England and SL for getting their actics spot on and taking Ireland apart in the areas that they new would weaken them?

I dont think that Ireland collapsed, they were beaten pure and simple.

eirebilly wrote:How about giving some credit to England and SL for getting their actics spot on and taking Ireland apart in the areas that they new would weaken them?

I dont think that Ireland collapsed, they were beaten pure and simple.

I dissagree...!

The game was basically an awfull error ridden affaire where no one could hold a pass. The determining feature was the scrum which England were incredibly dominant as soon as Ireland's tighthead went off.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Just to add to that, I think Mike Ross with O'Connell pushing behind him is a hell of a lot stronger than Tom Court with Donnacha Ryan pushing behind him - it wasn't just losing Ross for Court, it was who was behind them as well.

I don't think Court is the start and the finish for the blame at the scrum. The Irish scrum wasn't looking that good in the first half though the collapse came in the second the pressure was on from the England forwards from the start. Healey didn't enjoy his time up against Cole (which will be a nice bit of revenge for Dan after last season) and the tight five in general just lacked that power. Who do Ireland have coming through to take on the mantle long term?

Court wasn't the start and finish of the problems, but he was certainly the major factor. It has been said on a previous thread, his left shoulder was too high, and his backside was way too high for a tighthead. The difference that Paul O'Connell makes has already been noted on this thread, but even if he was playing, there is little he could have done to correct the problems that Ireland had at scrum time. He wouldn't have been aware enough of Courts shoulder or body position to stand up in the next huddle and tell them him how to correct it. That information should have come down from the coaches who have an unimpeded view of what was going on.

Neither second row looked to have that great a body position either, although with a front row going backwards at that rate, they will always struggle to maintain a proper technique. Although poor old Tom Court is average in the scrum when he wears number 1, he was horribly exposed at 3, and as you quite rightly say, Cole had the drop on Healy which limited Best's ability to help his new tighthead.

I've said before that I think Ireland need to get rid of Kidney with a warm thank you and goodbye.

Ireland need a more positive approach going forward, and to be motivated to play in Green. Thats it, the players are there, they can adapt to a number of gameplans and they're capable of brining relentless intensity.

Not sure what happened Saturday. The backs were on damage limitation after that mauling up front.

They miss POC and BOD on the field, Heaslips not been great shakes either. But that doesnt really apply to why the pack didnt turn up second half.

These Irish players are put in cotton wool by the IRFU, they rarely play 3 games in 3 weeks, it tends to be play one, have a sub, then a week off on rotation. I think they simply run out of steam.

The French get flogged every week in their Top 14 and did well against Wales because their used to being pushed. But the Irish simply didn't have the stamina or experience to play for 80 minutes for 3 weeks solid.

The OP is encapsulated in the extract

"Ok, the scrum was well-beaten, but in the second half why did
disinterest spread through out the whole of the rest of the side from 6
to 15?

They just stopped playing and if England had had any sort of offensive game plan, the score could have been truly embarrassming.

Why is this?"

So it is not about the front five, but the way in which the rest just gave up in adversity.

Loss of scrum dominance should never be a reason for the rest of the team to wave the white flag.

As I said elsewhere, the English game plan was always set in stone as negative. If Farrell had stood any deeper, he'd have needed opera glasses to see what was going on. And it is just as well for Ireland that he didn't have the nous to realise that he'd never have an easier ride ever.

But that only goes to emphasise the Irish 6-15 all but abandoning their posts.

If I were Irish, I'd be furious.

AlynDavies wrote:These Irish players are put in cotton wool by the IRFU, they rarely play 3 games in 3 weeks, it tends to be play one, have a sub, then a week off on rotation. I think they simply run out of steam.

The French get flogged every week in their Top 14 and did well against Wales because their used to being pushed. But the Irish simply didn't have the stamina or experience to play for 80 minutes for 3 weeks solid.

If Ireland were bereft of energy after four weeks of rugby then certainly France were feeling the same strain. As someone said, the Irish are as professional as any other players in Europe - and as fit when normal fitness is the requirement.

France didn't fall apart but they certainly weren't playing to their abilities. Ireland, on the other hand, did a France and fell apart when everything they tried seemed littered with errors. The day didn't help, the four games in row didn't help and had England or Wales played four 6N games in four straight weeks, some of their players who didn't have a break would have felt the strain every bit as much as the Irish.

SecretFly wrote:If Ireland were bereft of energy after four weeks of rugby then certainly France were feeling the same strain. As someone said, the Irish are as professional as any other players in Europe - and as fit when normal fitness is the requirement.

France didn't fall apart but they certainly weren't playing to their abilities. Ireland, on the other hand, did a France and fell apart when everything they tried seemed littered with errors. The day didn't help, the four games in row didn't help and had England or Wales played four 6N games in four straight weeks, some of their players who didn't have a break would have felt the strain every bit as much as the Irish.

I think I made the point that in the Top 14 the players get hammered week after week, so are used to the strain, the Irish boys are not. They are managed very carefully, because Ireland have a smaller player base they have to manage their talent with discretion to make sure it lasts.

Ireland didn't collapse at all. It is just that England went up a level after half-time and destroyed Ireland. Any other team in World Rugby including the likes of New Zealand would have collapsed like a pack of cards if they had played England at Twickenham on Saturday.

AlynDavies wrote:
I think I made the point that in the Top 14 the players get hammered week after week, so are used to the strain, the Irish boys are not. They are managed very carefully, because Ireland have a smaller player base they have to manage their talent with discretion to make sure it lasts.

Do you watch Top 14? Top 14 has a top and it has a bottom and it has sides with sizeable squads. Top sides in Top 14 often meet not so 'top' sides and don't have to "be hammered week after week". It's a nice myth but it isn't true.

In order to fight in the furnace that is HC you need players who are battle hardened and ready to compete at a high intensity. Irish players suffer from much when they go wear the Green of their Nation but mental and physical toughness isn't one of them. The stresses of playing in this Irish side are getting to some of them, as it would get to Welsh players and English players if asked to play the tripe they're being asked to play week in week out.

It might take Provincial coaches now a few weeks to get their players back playing confidently and with menace. But I have no doubt Europe will witness the transformations in players who will get back to playing rugby they understand.

gboycottnut wrote:Ireland didn't collapse at all. It is just that England went up a level after half-time and destroyed Ireland. Any other team in World Rugby including the likes of New Zealand would have collapsed like a pack of cards if they had played England at Twickenham on Saturday.

England thrashed Ireland. Not going to say differently - it's what happened. A good rollicking, as they say But nope, they didn't have to play exceptionally well to accomplish it. That's our tragedy though, not England's, who could only beat what was in front of them and did so.

gboycottnut wrote:Ireland didn't collapse at all. It is just that England went up a level after half-time and destroyed Ireland. Any other team in World Rugby including the likes of New Zealand would have collapsed like a pack of cards if they had played England at Twickenham on Saturday.

I do like a good laugh cheered me up no end that, cheers. What a lovely WUM

gboycottnut wrote:Ireland didn't collapse at all. It is just that England went up a level after half-time and destroyed Ireland. Any other team in World Rugby including the likes of New Zealand would have collapsed like a pack of cards if they had played England at Twickenham on Saturday.

If you want to beleive it do so .....I think your talking complete and utter nonsense.

And you wonder why the English get labelled arrogant

We may have had the Irish on toast (about time too!), but we're not quite ready for NZ yet.

Give Lancaster a couple of months. With his improvement record that should be about right

geoff999rugby wrote:

gboycottnut wrote:Ireland didn't collapse at all. It is just that England went up a level after half-time and destroyed Ireland. Any other team in World Rugby including the likes of New Zealand would have collapsed like a pack of cards if they had played England at Twickenham on Saturday.

If you want to beleive it do so .....I think your talking complete and utter nonsense.

And you wonder why the English get labelled arrogant

Arrogant? I think wind-up merchants were bred and developed in England first. You've just been had.

Then again one mans WUM is the next man arrogant individual.

All a matter of perception.

Maybe Ireland should change their coach, we keep seeing the some players over and over again but there is a time when they are not at their best or simply past it. The back row is not working and the centres are not up to the job but the most worrying is the lack of a TH as a backup, Wales have the same problem but not so bad. The hammering Ireland suffered in the scrum was made worse by the weather with so many handling errors by both teams leading to lots of scrums. England certainly exposed the Irish scrum, I don't believe the playing week after week as an excuse, France showed little sign of tiredness against Wales and they have an old team. Ireland either have a player shortage or the best players are not being selected only the Irish supporters may be able to answer? I can't remember an Irish team being so badly stuffed, they need to do something soon or confidence will drop.

glamorganalun wrote:Maybe Ireland should change their coach.

That's a new one on us, glamorganalun I heard we should change our jerseys, our anthems, our motivational songs, our number 13, our tweeting habits...but never have I heard once this season that we should change our coach.

The first penalty for the scrum was 1:07 on the clock, when England went straight through the middle.

According to Mr Kidney, Ross took an early knock and struggled on.

I think both sides wanted to throw the ball around and attack. Did you notice how wet it was? Not easy to see through the camera, it was that sort of heavy drizzle. But it was soaking (I live only a mile or two away from Twickenham) and bar of soap is fair as a description of the ball when you look at both sides. There were a fair few straight nerve induced knock ons, but a good few were just down to the conditions.

At half time Rowntree told the boys a few hard edged truths. Poor old Court was just the icing on the cake.

And it was so sudden and so complete after half time that the Irish effectively (perhaps literally?) went into shock. It's not a case of no plan B, it's all hands to the pumps and POC and BOD weren't there. Like when no more MJ...

Brian Moore spelt it out on tv at half time, so it's not as if the Irish weren't aware of what was being done to them.

It was 2007 in reverse. At that point, you just look to see who stood up when it all went to s***.

Cowshot wrote:
Brian Moore spelt it out on tv at half time, so it's not as if the Irish weren't aware of what was being done to them.

.

We didn't exactly need Brian moore to tell us what was happening. The Irish media have been fortelling the day of the ROSS injury for quite some time now. So you're right, the Irish were more than aware what was happening to them. But there are ways to do damage limitation on impotent scrums. Had it been coached for we might have still lost the game but with a little bit more self respect. Emergency solutions to inevitable problems weren't coached for though and that's why the issue keeps coming back to the man in charge - Kidney himself, not the players who did or didn't man up.