Is HMS Northampton a ship full of loose cannons?

You know the names and many of them are (or should be) essential to the English cause.

I have loads of respect for the Saints but the disciplinary record of their players is becoming farcical.

It would be wonderful to hear Jim Mallinder's views

It does appear the team is full of 'hot heads' I guess the term would be.

A shame for such a great club, as the players are really starting to get a bad reputation for themselves.

Should we take this thread seriously or is it the same as me starting a discussion about how rubbish Bath are?

HKC - at least this one is slightly funny and original!

In fairness Portnoy, I've just seen the Clark incident for the 1st time - absolutely shocking - so I'll treat this as tongue in cheek with a healthy dose of realism!

Bathite, where would you like your sauce of milk delivered?

How about ontop of your broken record player, it won't cause any more damage then if it leaks.

There you are sir

p.s. sorry I couldn't find a smiley for 8 out of 9

Not really that fussed to be honest mate, I'm not a local, but been naturalised. Don't really have that hate for Glos ingrained into me, in fact I have a bit of support for them, had a mate play for them a few years back, so met some of the youngsters a few times (his housemates) and have kept an eye on their careers ever since.

I did see Saints try to rough up the Ospreys 3rd / 4th team during the LV Cup in Bridgend thankfully Ian Evans put the Saints forwards straight!

If it was full they wouldnt be loose, theyd keep each other in place.

AlynDavies wrote:I did see Saints try to rough up the Ospreys 3rd / 4th team during the LV Cup in Bridgend thankfully Ian Evans put the Saints forwards straight!

Well, in a battle of the thugs you'd expect the guy who ended Harry Ellis' career to win

I saw the Clarke video this morning. He should be in front of a court of law, not a citing commissioner.

I makes me wonder, what they are teaching the players at Northampton, there are some genuinely talented players there, but all they want to do is act like mafia thugs. It really is starting to GRIND MY GEARS to see these players behave like this, they should all grow up and just play rugby, not act like little babies and they should all take a look at themselves for the impressions they are given out to the young children watching the game.

I think the Clark incident should be treated in isolation, it is very nasty and seems to be out of character for the rest of the team (yes, yes Hartley a few years ago was idiotic). In the main it's wind up merchant stuff and a lot of the big teams have players who will go toe to toe with the opposition and front up. Occasionally these over step the mark.

Tigers HEC winning teams had Back and Johnno (head coach was Dean Richards) - they weren't exactly known for being timid.

Leinster won two HECs with Nathan Hines and Shane Jennings in the team, once again they weren't known for being soft touches.

In the main then Saints can step a tad to far in the aggression terms but generally it's no bother (as I said above Clark incident aside), they pick up a few citings for silly bugger stuff but that is mainly contained to the local derby game (not like Tigers are whiter than white in these games either) and all teams get a few citings because of hot heads over the course of the season.

Agree with Sam. I think Northampton are getting a little unfair stick.

Clark should be given a hefty ban in my opinion but let's leave it at that.

Discipline records:

Jeff - http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=389&statType=discipline

HEC - http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=382&statType=discipline

Can't find a citings analysis.

Fair enough Portnoy. Nice stats.

Okay they show that London Irish,Saints and Newcastle are the biggest offenders.

Newcastle's discipline is horrific. Probably down to the signing of 2 new coaches.

I suspect Saints are the focus of attention not because of the amount of offences they commit (alledged or otherwise) but because of the nature of the offenses.

Newcastle's discipline is horrific

Probably because they spent the most time under pressure near their own line and therefore penalties come more quickly and YCs follow on. Saints try and contest every ruck, they are bound to be pulled up more often than say Tigers who have implimented a scheme under Cockers to only contest every ruck in the opponents half or when on their own try line. Not sure why LI are up there, I know they have some players with a bad rap tackle wise but wouldn't have thought that would have accounted for all 6 YCs.

I guess it is like Sam said, people want to see their side have a bit or dog/aggression in the pack, its just making sure that they know where the line is between being the physically hard player (enforcer if you will) and being a thug. Its not just Saints that have the problem with the players straying over the line, Bradley Davies' off the ball spear in the 6Ns is another example of a player trying to prove they are 'harder' than the opposition, but going about it in totally the wrong way.

Saints have had one red card in all comps so far this year (for Wood's involvement in the scrap). Yellow cards don't mean much without saying what they're for, repeat infridgments or dirty play?

A big part of Northampton's strength is in their pack (fairly). On top of that they've got a couple of niggly players (as do most sides). This may well give the impression of them all being thugs but it's hardly fair.

EDIT: Also Clark had a bit of rep for being dirty before he arrived at Saints. Also Hartley has improved massively as been there. So you could say Northampton are teaching niggly players to cut it out.

Mallinder has said before when commenting on an on pitch brawl that it was no worse than seen in training

Hartley has always been a playground bully - pinching the back of the Scarlet's scrumhalf's neck for example. He'll be cited for chineese burns and wedgies next.

Was that one against Leicester? If so the worst offenders were Agulla and Murphy (and of course Ashton who started it off). Overall it wasn't particularly bad.

Point is, why are team members fighting in training ? Don't see it happening in the Welsh regions - can't speak for others but would be surprised to see it happen in Irish provinces.

Edwards said it was common at Wasps. Probably common at Tigers as well. No idea about the others. Perhaps it goes on but it's such a minor thing no-one talks about it.

Weird, I don't see Edwards letting players getting away with that during training.

Dorian West must have brought the Tigers full contact sessions to Saints then. I know the now legendary Tigers contact training sessions used to require the club doctor to be present as stitches were often required.

The one vs Tigers was mainly handbags, Agulla was perhaps fortunate to not be cited. Muphy reacted to a dig in his ribs with a punch and so was perhaps fortunate as well. I think Wood got reded really because he came flying in which took the incident from a 1 on 1 to a full scale charge in and defend your mates brawl. It was a local derby and tensions were running high, no one was hurt.

munkian wrote:Point is, why are team members fighting in training ? Don't see it happening in the Welsh regions - can't speak for others but would be surprised to see it happen in Irish provinces.

Its fairly common at Tigers, training is notoriously physical.

I can understand the physicallity. But fighting ? I wouldn't wan't the culprits on a Lions tour, not exactly going to bond well with other Nation's players if they can't keep in control agaisnt their own team mates

munkian wrote:Point is, why are team members fighting in training ? Don't see it happening in the Welsh regions - can't speak for others but would be surprised to see it happen in Irish provinces.

Maybe thats because noone takes the welsh regions seriosuly including the palyers?


Having seen tigers be on the end of a witch hunt before can someone produce any solid evidence that Northampton are any more prone to getting players involved in violent acts than other clubs?
And that doesnt mean produce a list of headline grabbing incidnets. High profile clubs playing high profile games will inevitably get more. Incidents in these are more likely to get cited too.

I am well aware of teh thuggery they have displayed in recent games against Tigers but Id still question labelling them as a dirty team who actively seek to injure players as par for the course.

The Hawkins incident is an exceptional case, not the norm. Im sure Rees considers getting an 11 week ban for raking Hartleys eyes to be the same.


The bralw at Tigers wasnt nearly as exterme as its been made out to be. That sort of things happenes several times a season, the healdines were big because of the way it started and because it took place right on the sdielines with mebers of the crowd and that girl nearly getting dragged in. Its not that long ago that saraccens were to boo boys of English rugby, before then Tigers. Munster had a period of being accused of being dirty not that long ago. Wales picked up 3 cards for serious foul play in 4 games. That chap from Sale picked up 3 citings in a year. And we all know that French players to a man gouge every player they can. Everyone at Bath is on coke. Harelquins are just plain cheats. Least said about London Irish players diciplinary record the better.

Let he without sin cast the first stone, then have everyone else stand around demanding hes banned for life and hold all of his teammates up for scrutiny.


Having said all that Northampton are a nasty bunch of counts just like their supporters.

Riiiiiiight.... Welsh players don't fight because people don't take the regions seriously...

You're insight into Welsh rugby is outstanding, I wish too subscribe to your news letter

Edwards has said that he expects the players to fight occationally during training and that it's not a big deal.

Here's a quote from Edwards a few years ago.

'We always have a fight in Heineken Cup week,' he said. 'In training sometimes emotions run a bit wild. It happens at any club. Rugby is an emotional game and you encourage emotion in training.'

So according to Edwards, if you're not fighting in training it's because you're not passionate.

The contact sessions are famous for being tough because they were in effect a full blooded game on the back of tackling, rucking, scrumming, mauling and defensive practice. When Salvi first joined Tigers he reckoned he'd done more live scrums in his first week than he'd done all season at the Brumbies. Players have to fight for their places and get everything out on the pitch. You go that hard at training because then in a game you know how you and those around you will cope in a game.

I wouldn't wan't the culprits on a Lions tour, not exactly going to bond well with other Nation's players if they can't keep in control agaisnt their own team mates

Yet some of those most famous for buying into that mentality at Tigers did well on Lions Tours. Johnno, Backie and Moody were famous for not holding back, there's a story Ben Kay told in an interview where Moody scythed down Johnno in a warm up game of touch that led to a punch up and laughs all round in the bar afterwards.

I think the Bridgend team (1980s or 1970s) were famous for training as hard or harder than they played?

munkian wrote:Point is, why are team members fighting in training ? Don't see it happening in the Welsh regions - can't speak for others but would be surprised to see it happen in Irish provinces.

I've heard of it happening in Munster. Keith Wood rucked all over John Kelly quite badly in the early 2000s during a training session which led to a dust up I believe. I remember hearing about Wallace, Sherry and Warwick getting into a ruckus about two years ago.

How do you know it doesn't happen in welsh/irish team training? Its not as though they would publicise it!

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

munkian wrote:Riiiiiiight.... Welsh players don't fight because people don't take the regions seriously...

You're insight into Welsh rugby is outstanding, I wish too subscribe to your news letter

To be fair Munakin I dont know that much about Welsh regional rugby, its a struggle to find anyone who cares enough to tell me about it

It was a cheap joke to get the ball rolling, not a serious comment. Have a pinch of salt, life tastes better than way.

It's not great when the team you support is in the news for the wrong reasons, although it's been refreshing to read the level headed responses of the Tigers fans on this site, along with the many others. I wish I could say the same of some of the idiotic Saints supports who post on other forums. Although not a member (I'm a one forum only kind of guy) I do often read the official Saints board (good place for new signing rumours etc) and unfortunately I must say I'm disappointed but not totally surprised by some of the posts on the Clark incident.

Although I'm biased, for what it's worth I don't think that Saints are a dirty club to the core but we do seem to have some individuals who seem to be giving the club a bad reputation. Just like the Bradley Davies incident doesn't make Wales a dirty team I don't feel the actions of a couple of players mean the whole organisation should be seen in the same light. When Attoub and Dupry got banned did it mean the entire Stade team were dirty players (including players like Tom Palmer & Sergio Parisse)? All teams have players who get under the oppositions skin and try and throw them off their game plan.

I am reserving judgment on the Hartley incident. I want my hooker to be abrasive and in the faces of the opposition (but in a fair and legal way) and if it transpires that Ferris was fishing then he can have no argument for the response he received. If however DH just saw a stray finger close by under the heap of players and took a cheap shot then he deserves a ban and to have to regain his place in the England squad through hard work once he becomes available again. If he is guilty he should have to work his way back up to the top (I wouldn't be upset if he looses the Saints captaincy if it is proved beyond any doubt that had been a total plank).

I don't feel Lawes is a dirty player. Clumsy occasionally and for a while he started to believe his own press and try and play the enforcer thing too much but his disciplinary record is better than many expect. People seem to forget that Simon Shaw was the same throughout his career (remember the slide into Du Preez during the second Lions test in 2009) and yet he isn't talked about as being an overly dirty player.

Ashton seems to have a brain trump on the pitch from time to time and needs to come to his sensors. It's surprising as off the pitch he comes across as being alright and maybe just a bit immature. To be honest although I'm sad to see him leave I actually think it could be beneficial for both parties that he moves on and I'm pretty sure Saracens will not stand for too much stupidity or too many suspensions.

Unless something looks very very different form another angle then Calum Clark is an idiot and deserves everything that comes his way. I don't think it would be unreasonable for him to be told to sit out the remainder of year (that's year, not season) and not be involved in rugby until at least January 2013 and although I hate it when rugby can't police itself I wouldn't be surprised if the police become involved and he would only have himself to blame. I don't want players like that at my club or playing rugby full stop.

As a Tigers fan B, I have to declare an ieartedlynterest, I have never felt any animosity towards the Saints - only local rivalry. I leave any animosities to other teams in the Jeff.

So I didn't point fingers at individuals in the Northampton set-up.

I agree wholeheartedly with your summary of your team.

I too like a hooker that really riles the opposition (as with a scrum-half).
I pray that there is another camera angle that either conclusively condemns or exonerates Hartley.

As for Calum (again presupposing that there is not another camera angle that somehow shows a different perspective on the incident), I'd find it hard to justify a ban that is less than Hawkin's recovery time.

Portnoy wrote:As for Calum (again presupposing that there is not another camera angle that somehow shows a different perspective on the incident), I'd find it hard to justify a ban that is less than Hawkin's recovery time.

I heard it suggested on these boards that a ban for Clark that is twice the estimated recovery time for Hawkins is a fair punishment and I agree. Plus if it affects any contract negotiations for Hawkins then Clark should be held financially responsible. I know it sets a dangerous precedent for future cases but I don't see why Hawkins should loose out for someone else's recklessness and pure stupidity.

Thanks for yet another level headed Tigers response Portney. I'm another who enjoys beating our local rival but truly don't feel any hatred for them (or anyone for that matter). I leave that crap for football hooligans.

munkian wrote:I can understand the physicallity. But fighting ? I wouldn't wan't the culprits on a Lions tour, not exactly going to bond well with other Nation's players if they can't keep in control agaisnt their own team mates

Never watched the 97 living with lions then? two welsh hookers going for it in scrum training

B91212 wrote:It's not great when the team you support is in the news for the wrong reasons.........

Although I'm biased, for what it's worth I don't think that Saints are a dirty club to the core but we do seem to have some individuals who seem to be giving the club a bad reputation. Just like the Bradley Davies incident doesn't make Wales a dirty team I don't feel the actions of a couple of players mean the whole organisation should be seen in the same light. When Attoub and Dupry got banned did it mean the entire Stade team were dirty players (including players like Tom Palmer & Sergio Parisse)?

Absolutely agree, mate. But I guess that's what a fellow Saints fan should do. I have been a fan of Saints for a long time and have close ties to the club. I have written elsewhere that the club is a very inclusive, family oriented place and with terrific ties to the community. Saints have done a lot to help Norhtampton city and Northamptonshire in general. This kind of behaviour on the pitch is not typical and usual at the club. Its a great organisation and a few guys with nettles in their undies does not reflect the values of the club.

doctor_grey wrote:Saints have done a lot to help Norhtampton city and Northamptonshire in general. This kind of behaviour on the pitch is not typical and usual at the club. Its a great organisation and a few guys with nettles in their undies does not reflect the values of the club.

I wish the council would remember that and allow the club to sell some land off to ASDA like they have been trying to for a while. That way they can increase the stadium capacity and still keep the team in the town itself. Unless they can increase revenue with increased attendances then I fear they may stagnate a little in comparison to the other top clubs in the jeff. That is unless a redicously wealthy benifactor comes along (you fancy it Dr?, invest some of those millions and millions of US dollars you earn a month south of the border - after all the exchange rate is favorable at the moment )

Used to happen at Ulster, up to 3/4 years ago.
Not now - training is physical but self discipline is consider very important as well.