Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?

First topic message reminder :

S x 3.

S S S.

Or more commonly known as Second Season Syndrome.

We often see young players bursting onto the international scene and making a huge impression only for their brightness to fade after a while as coaches and teams analyse the players strengths and weaknesses. They can then struggle for a period before they adapt their game or another unknown threat bursts into their team and catches the attention of the analysts.

Eg. Chris Ashton - Burst onto the international scene matched the 6ns try-scoring record and seemed unstoppable after that try against the ozzies. But then, what happened? Now, you could point the finger at the rest of the team, as hes a winger, and respectively wingers tend to score more when their teams on top, of course.

So perhaps another example.....

Priestland - Unexpectedly started at 10 during the world cup warm ups and we can all remember the performances he backed that up with at the world cup itself. This 6nations though, teams had defensive patterns to put him under pressure, they'd analysed his weaknesses and as such, we saw him struggle against England and he hasnt been at his best since.

Now, those are a bit off topic, but back-up the theory of "second season syndrome".

Back to the title, why was Wales grand slam so much more spectacular than 2005 or 2008? Because every side had obviously worked tactics to stifle this welsh side, as they knew exactly how they were going to play after the performances at the world cup. Every side tried their own way of stopping the flow of ball to the welsh backs, they tried to exploit the perceived welsh weakness of the lineout.

But, despite everyone knowing what they had to do to stop this welsh side, none were capable of doing so. The welsh side showed grit beyond most of their tender years, I've no doubt the effect of the defeat to France at the world cup is the sort of hurt these young players needed to spur them on mentally as a group.

Ireland away and England at HQ summed it up for me. They had a collective mental toughness against both of those sides, and I've no doubt that a year ago, both of those games would have been would have resulted in a close result, but no winning cigar.

I know a few have mentioned that they see this welsh side as different to the GS teams gone by recently, and I echo that sentiment.

I think thats why you guys may have to get used to us welsh being a little more excited than usual, we've seen too many false dawns, we can spot them a mile-off. This feels different for now, the NH has been unable to stop us this year, and its up we look as we go down south.

The Ozzies seem to be within arms reach, but have skipped by the last couple of games, now we'll start to see if Gatland's given this welsh squad the minerals to be more than fleeting NH grandslammers. To be more than what our rankings suggest we are, near the top of the NH tree, but strugglers against the SH big 3.

For now, I, like most other welsh posters, will bask in the warm glow of the 6nations crown with a hankering for some kangaroo, safe in the knowledge, that this welsh side has the style, the substance and perhaps the mentality to rise to the top, this may have been the missing ingrediant in years gone by.

2005 was a really spectacular Grand Slam in terms of the quality of rugby played. That's the best Welsh team in my lifetime. I wouldn't say Gatlands slams were 'spectacular'. They were built on strong defence, hard running, mental strength and consistency rather than creativity, flair and panache.

2008 was a fluke, at least this years was earned the hard way, even if it was a negative way to play the game we all love.

Are Wales the new England?

Are Wales the new England?

NO - England are the new Wales - Runners up and they are already being touted as world beaters in all the media

Poor Hersh, she must have sleepless nights trying all these different ways hahahaha Bless her

So you guys agree, Wales were negative.

We were negatively positive Hersh

Well waiting 9 years and counting must leave a bitter taste in your mouth. Be 10 years and more failure in 2013, wonderful.

Woodstock- England Waiting 9 years for a World cup ? well its better than than the wait that Wales have had, or to be honest, the wait that they're going to have!!

At least we've been there and have our name on the Webb-Ellis, but hey at least you got third in the last Century!! Ha,ha,ha,ha

Not at all, a runners up spot in the 2007 RWC, whilst not great we know we achieved the best defence of the RWC by any team, 2011 6 nations Champions with a team that wasn't that inspiring but yet we showed what grit us English are made of, and apart from a poor camera angle robbed of a draw against the self proclaimed best team in the world in this years six nations.

I feel very positive about England at the moment, but am I bitter that a TV director and technical staff for the poor placement of the cameras decided the outcome of a game? Then yes, yes I am.

As for winning a Rugby World Cup in 2003 I wouldn’t swap that achievement and sense of joy for three maybe even four/five Grand Slams!

english grit???? Spellcheck please.

HERSH wrote:robbed of a draw against the self proclaimed best team in the world in this years six nations.

That's a lie and you know it. No one in the Welsh camp (nor anyone else in his right mind) has said Wales are the best team in the world.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

HERSH wrote:robbed of a draw against the self proclaimed best team in the world in this years six nations.

That's a lie and you know it. No one in the Welsh camp (nor anyone else in his right mind) has said Wales are the best team in the world.

No just the 4th best.

Apparently that is something worth arguing about according to the same peopel who say it doesnt mean anything.....

Woodstock wrote:english grit???? Spellcheck please.

Pointing out spellings and grammer is a tell tale sign that an argument is lost.

and Luckless I'm just going by what some of the posters on here are saying.

HERSH wrote: Luckless I'm just going by what some of the posters on here are saying.

Then you shouldn't have used 'self-proclaimed'.

Woodstock wrote:english grit???? Spellcheck please.

Ha ha ha ... very whitty...!

maestegmafia wrote:

Woodstock wrote:english grit???? Spellcheck please.

Ha ha ha ... very whitty...!

LOL too technical for hersh, bless her.

Sorry to burst the Welsh bubble but the Welsh grandslam wasn't spectacular.

Wales got a bit of the rub of the green against Ireland and England - don't deny you didn't. You deserved to win the grandslam as the best team throughout the tournament but fortune was there too.

Also Wales started as one of the pre tournament favourites - as one of the form sides from the rugby world cup so the grandslam was not that spectacular. Another point is that the Welsh don't do things in half measures - it's either grandslam or 4th/below.


What is more spectacular is that with the Welsh side being so good why are the Welsh regions struggling so much on the European stage and why can they not encourage new signings? Surely the WRU would pump money into the beleaguered regions?

beshocked wrote:Sorry to burst the Welsh bubble but the Welsh grandslam wasn't spectacular.

Wales got a bit of the rub of the green against Ireland and England - don't deny you didn't. You deserved to win the grandslam as the best team throughout the tournament but fortune was there too.

Also Wales started as one of the pre tournament favourites - as one of the form sides from the rugby world cup so the grandslam was not that spectacular. Another point is that the Welsh don't do things in half measures - it's either grandslam or 4th/below.


What is more spectacular is that with the Welsh side being so good why are the Welsh regions struggling so much on the European stage and why can they not encourage new signings? Surely the WRU would pump money into the beleaguered regions?

Because, unlike the Irish regions, we are trying to shed our NWQ players not boost their numbers like you lot in Ireland.

Woodstock wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Woodstock wrote:english grit???? Spellcheck please.

Ha ha ha ... very whitty...!

LOL too technical for hersh, bless her.

English with an 'E' please.

guys this is threatening to boil over, please ensure it doesn't

beshocked wrote:Wales got a bit of the rub of the green against Ireland and England - don't deny you didn't. You deserved to win the grandslam as the best team throughout the tournament but fortune was there too.

When teams are pretty even on the day, sometimes the deciding factor IS luck, whether its a 50/50 efereeing decision or a lucky bounce of the ball.

Everyone needs a bit of luck to win the Grandslam, you can't really go through the whole tournament without having a little bit of it.

Martyr94 -' Everyone needs a bit of luck to win the Grandslam'

How true, how very true that is, and Steve Walsh and poor Camera angles !!

english warrior wrote:Martyr94 -' Everyone needs a bit of luck to win the Grandslam'

How true, how very true that is, and Steve Walsh and poor Camera angles !!

haha, very good warrior, trouble is Walsh spends more time looking at the camera than the game, which isn't Wales' fault

Sounds like Stephen Ferris was right, eh, Warrior?

biltongbek wrote:guys this is threatening to boil over, please ensure it doesn't

You're right Bil

Lets draw a line under it and move on
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Well Played Wales.

Im afraid to say the use of the word 'spectacular' has blinded you all to the whole point of my OP.

Im not going to apologise for that. The rest of my posts explain my thoughts and why I've used 'spectacular'.

Seeing some of these posts is like watching Stephen Jones and Hook goal-kicking at the world cup........

Luckless pedestrian -'Looks like Ferris was right eh warrior?


Bejaysus, Luckless, You've got me there !!

Comfort wrote:Im afraid to say the use of the word 'spectacular' has blinded you all to the whole point of my OP.

Im not going to apologise for that. The rest of my posts explain my thoughts and why I've used 'spectacular'.

Seeing some of these posts is like watching Stephen Jones and Hook goal-kicking at the world cup........

You'll have to explain with a bit more clarity why the word 'spectacular' is used.

It would be spectacular if Italy won the 6 nations, it would be spectacular if Edinburgh won the HC or Exeter winning the AP.

Not sure how Wales getting the grandslam is though.

The grandslam for Wales is well deserved but it's either feast or famine.

Would it be spectacular if Leinster or Munster lift the HC?

english warrior wrote: Luckless pedestrian -'Looks like Ferris was right eh warrior?


Bejaysus, Luckless, You've got me there !!

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

english warrior wrote: Luckless pedestrian -'Looks like Ferris was right eh warrior?


Bejaysus, Luckless, You've got me there !!

I assume you guys are talking about the biting incident?

any news yet.

I was referring to Ferris's pre-match claim that the English are bad losers, Biltong.

I assume you guys are talking about the biting incident?

any news yet.

Hartley said it tasted a little bitter.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I was referring to Ferris's pre-match claim that the English are bad losers, Biltong.

They are usually pretty good at losing to Ireland

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I was referring to Ferris's pre-match claim that the English are bad losers, Biltong.

Well they proved him right by winning the match in style didn't they?

Beshocked, here are my posts from this thread. perhaps it can help you to understand what I was trying to get at in my OP......

"I think the welsh win at twickenham is a bit understated, the only win in the previous 24 years there was teh incredible game of 2 halves in 2008.

England have an extraordinary record at HQ in the 6nations.

Maybe the result would have been different had Wales vs England been last, but perhaps the English resurgence would have been different if they had 2 of Ireland/Wales/France first up instead of Scotland/Italy. All if's, but's and maybe's.

Some will say the welsh rode their luck, and I'd be one of them, but to win a grandslam in the 6ns, you need your slice of the luck pie, and I'm a big believer in that you cook your own luck pie.

Barney, the 2005 GS was probably more exciting, but not built on anything resembling sustainable rugby. Thats my point I guess.
My context of spectacular is in relation to the substance and grit wales played with, perhaps a more SA dynamic than the old romanticism of Wales offloading the ball and running from anywhere. Thats why i consider it spectacular, and i will not apologise for it or change my stance
Hounds, I think you English are too used to playing winning rugby, and therefore consider it pragmatic. Us welsh are used to seeing offloads thrown from anywhere, to anyone, anywehere near, in anything resembling a welsh jersey. To us, pragmatic rugby is smart rugby

The OP wasnt necessarily about this being the best 6ns ever, or the tournment itself being spectacular. More my opinion on this welsh side and its potential, then clarifying why i think its spectacular (for Wales) in comparison to their 2005/2008 grand slams.
As we all agree, the real acid test for Wales will be against those top 3 we seem to be so bad at beating. Too many close losses but this seems to be a corner we're turning in the tighter affairs. Fingers crossed we can continue on this upwards curve in results and take a few notable scalps this year.

A scalp thats all black wouldn't go amiss, even my father wasn't around for the last one! "

I see that once upon a time this thread a
Started as an interesting debate about second season syndrome and competitive result.

LordDowlais wrote:Because, unlike the Irish regions, we are trying to shed our NWQ players not boost their numbers like you lot in Ireland.

Is that why the IRFU are cutting the maximum number of NIQ players allowed in the provinces and introducing strict restrictions on how many players can be signed in each position?

'second season syndrome' as a term isnt limited to actual seasons.

All of the 6nations teams would have known exactly what to expect from Wales, and planned accordingly, we saw those specific tactics in every game except perhaps the Scottish game.

Even with teams employing these tactics, and Wales as one of the favourites, Wales managed to attain the Grand Slam. Now, this is not something we would have accomplished previously, thats why its spectacular, we could have just seen the welsh dragon grow a real set of janglys for the first time in decades.

Trying to get back to the original question.......................

I was impressed by a couple of things that I think are new about Wales

1. THey now have real power in the side - it used to be possible to physically intimidate Wales - not anymore

2. They have, possibly for the first time, real strength in depth

Take those together and I can only see this side getting better.

And it really hurts to say that

Comfort wrote:'second season syndrome' as a term isnt limited to actual seasons.

Eh? Surely it refers explicitly to seasons?

Comfort wrote:Beshocked, here are my posts from this thread. perhaps it can help you to understand what I was trying to get at in my OP......

"I think the welsh win at twickenham is a bit understated, the only win in the previous 24 years there was teh incredible game of 2 halves in 2008.

England have an extraordinary record at HQ in the 6nations.

Maybe the result would have been different had Wales vs England been last, but perhaps the English resurgence would have been different if they had 2 of Ireland/Wales/France first up instead of Scotland/Italy. All if's, but's and maybe's.

Some will say the welsh rode their luck, and I'd be one of them, but to win a grandslam in the 6ns, you need your slice of the luck pie, and I'm a big believer in that you cook your own luck pie.

Barney, the 2005 GS was probably more exciting, but not built on anything resembling sustainable rugby. Thats my point I guess.
My context of spectacular is in relation to the substance and grit wales played with, perhaps a more SA dynamic than the old romanticism of Wales offloading the ball and running from anywhere. Thats why i consider it spectacular, and i will not apologise for it or change my stance
Hounds, I think you English are too used to playing winning rugby, and therefore consider it pragmatic. Us welsh are used to seeing offloads thrown from anywhere, to anyone, anywehere near, in anything resembling a welsh jersey. To us, pragmatic rugby is smart rugby

The OP wasnt necessarily about this being the best 6ns ever, or the tournment itself being spectacular. More my opinion on this welsh side and its potential, then clarifying why i think its spectacular (for Wales) in comparison to their 2005/2008 grand slams.
As we all agree, the real acid test for Wales will be against those top 3 we seem to be so bad at beating. Too many close losses but this seems to be a corner we're turning in the tighter affairs. Fingers crossed we can continue on this upwards curve in results and take a few notable scalps this year.

A scalp thats all black wouldn't go amiss, even my father wasn't around for the last one! "

Fair enough Comfort.I just feel something like 'spectacular from a Welsh perspective' or impressive would be more appropriate words. When I think of spectacular I think of something that blew me away - normally something unexpected in a very positive way. The Welsh grand slam was not that unexpected. I can understand your bullish attitude though.

You make some very good points. Again well done for winning the slam.

cheers beshocked, and i might admit to having dabbled in hyperbole with the title, sensible doesnt seem to get that much reaction on here at the moment

Im not over-confident though, we've seen 2 grandslam sides just fade away into nothing against the SH big 3, theres nothing to say this wont happen, it justs seems less likely after the style of performances and strength in depth we've not had before.

Also looking forward to the battle of the packs down in SA this summer, that'll be very, very interesting!

wickedwasp wrote:Trying to get back to the original question.......................

I was impressed by a couple of things that I think are new about Wales

1. THey now have real power in the side - it used to be possible to physically intimidate Wales - not anymore

2. They have, possibly for the first time, real strength in depth

Take those together and I can only see this side getting better.

And it really hurts to say that

Both points are true. Wales have strength and depth in their squad and greater squad better than they have had since the late seventies. It has been a hell of a lot of hard work getting to that stage, and the work will continue too.

Regional rugby is the biggest thing that needs addressing in the Welsh game, their needs to be a collective focus over the next twelve months on improving all aspects of the regions, performance and support of fans are the key areas.

Onwards and Upwards though.

It's too soon to be congratulating ourselves about strength in depth, Maesteg. We still have no tight head close to filling Adam Jones's shoes; our back-up for the potentially flaky Rhys Priestland is the potentially flakier-still James Hook; our back-up for Leigh Halfpenny is Lee Byrne, who hasn't put in a good performance for Wales in a good while; we're hardly tripping over international-standard wings, either.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:It's too soon to be congratulating ourselves about strength in depth, Maesteg. We still have no tight head close to filling Adam Jones's shoes; our back-up for the potentially flaky Rhys Priestland is the potentially flakier-still James Hook; our back-up for Leigh Halfpenny is Lee Byrne, who hasn't put in a good performance for Wales in a good while; we're hardly tripping over international-standard wings, either.

Luckless no nation bar maybe SA or France has a back up to a world class tighthead prop. They are in short demand.

But I disagree with your point on Strength and Depth, or maybe you miss understand my point.

We do have the strongest Strength and depth we have had since the seventies. Like I said above it could be better and everything is geared to making it better, but we are in a very good situation already and doing the right things to improve further.

We have to thank the regions for that, and the WRU need to work hard to get the regions being even more effective still.

As I say, we have made giant steps over about twenty years, we are not there yet, in fact hopefully a long way from our possible potential, but we are doing the right things and we are seeing the results.

I think Craig Mitchell's coming along very nicely at Exeter, and he's deputised and done 'alright' previously. Hes young, and hopefully he'll keep improving.

Stoddart to come back and fight for a space in the back 3, he was going to be our FB for the world cup before his injury and he was looking every bit the test player he'd once promised to be, fingers crossed he can make a decent recovery.

I do agree though, we've got strength in depth in some positions, and definitely in comparison to what we had once, but where it could really affect our game (10) we're still very vulnerable. I think Gatlands doing the right things with Priestland though, for the record. Flyhalf is a real problem if Priestland goes down (world cup).

Comfort wrote:I think Craig Mitchell's coming along very nicely at Exeter, and he's deputised and done 'alright' previously. Hes young, and hopefully he'll keep improving.

Stoddart to come back and fight for a space in the back 3, he was going to be our FB for the world cup before his injury and he was looking every bit the test player he'd once promised to be, fingers crossed he can make a decent recovery.

I do agree though, we've got strength in depth in some positions, and definitely in comparison to what we had once, but where it could really affect our game (10) we're still very vulnerable. I think Gatlands doing the right things with Priestland though, for the record. Flyhalf is a real problem if Priestland goes down (world cup).

There are plenty of talented youngsters who would like to get in, Biggar, Tovey, Williams, Morgan Jones. Until then we have Hook.

It is not exactly doom and gloom.

Not doom and gloom, no; but not hunky dory either.

I think the other sides in the 6N will close the gap on Wales. I can't see us going into next season an thinking there are only one or two sides capable of winning the 6N. France, Ireland, Wales and England are all able to mount title challenges year on year, and I can't see that changing. Especially if Gatland isn't coach of Wales in 2013 due to Lions commitments

Note this is my honest opinion and not an attempt to denigrate or devalue Wales' slam. Wales definitely deserved the Slam this year and are the top dogs in the Hemisphere right now. I'm really looking forward to the test series between Australia and Wales