About v2Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
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Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Comfort Wed 21 Mar 2012, 1:35 pm
First topic message reminder :
S x 3.
S S S.
Or more commonly known as Second Season Syndrome.
We often see young players bursting onto the international scene and making a huge impression only for their brightness to fade after a while as coaches and teams analyse the players strengths and weaknesses. They can then struggle for a period before they adapt their game or another unknown threat bursts into their team and catches the attention of the analysts.
Eg. Chris Ashton - Burst onto the international scene matched the 6ns try-scoring record and seemed unstoppable after that try against the ozzies. But then, what happened? Now, you could point the finger at the rest of the team, as hes a winger, and respectively wingers tend to score more when their teams on top, of course.
So perhaps another example.....
Priestland - Unexpectedly started at 10 during the world cup warm ups and we can all remember the performances he backed that up with at the world cup itself. This 6nations though, teams had defensive patterns to put him under pressure, they'd analysed his weaknesses and as such, we saw him struggle against England and he hasnt been at his best since.
Now, those are a bit off topic, but back-up the theory of "second season syndrome".
Back to the title, why was Wales grand slam so much more spectacular than 2005 or 2008? Because every side had obviously worked tactics to stifle this welsh side, as they knew exactly how they were going to play after the performances at the world cup. Every side tried their own way of stopping the flow of ball to the welsh backs, they tried to exploit the perceived welsh weakness of the lineout.
But, despite everyone knowing what they had to do to stop this welsh side, none were capable of doing so. The welsh side showed grit beyond most of their tender years, I've no doubt the effect of the defeat to France at the world cup is the sort of hurt these young players needed to spur them on mentally as a group.
Ireland away and England at HQ summed it up for me. They had a collective mental toughness against both of those sides, and I've no doubt that a year ago, both of those games would have been would have resulted in a close result, but no winning cigar.
I know a few have mentioned that they see this welsh side as different to the GS teams gone by recently, and I echo that sentiment.
I think thats why you guys may have to get used to us welsh being a little more excited than usual, we've seen too many false dawns, we can spot them a mile-off. This feels different for now, the NH has been unable to stop us this year, and its up we look as we go down south.
The Ozzies seem to be within arms reach, but have skipped by the last couple of games, now we'll start to see if Gatland's given this welsh squad the minerals to be more than fleeting NH grandslammers. To be more than what our rankings suggest we are, near the top of the NH tree, but strugglers against the SH big 3.
For now, I, like most other welsh posters, will bask in the warm glow of the 6nations crown with a hankering for some kangaroo, safe in the knowledge, that this welsh side has the style, the substance and perhaps the mentality to rise to the top, this may have been the missing ingrediant in years gone by.
S x 3.
S S S.
Or more commonly known as Second Season Syndrome.
We often see young players bursting onto the international scene and making a huge impression only for their brightness to fade after a while as coaches and teams analyse the players strengths and weaknesses. They can then struggle for a period before they adapt their game or another unknown threat bursts into their team and catches the attention of the analysts.
Eg. Chris Ashton - Burst onto the international scene matched the 6ns try-scoring record and seemed unstoppable after that try against the ozzies. But then, what happened? Now, you could point the finger at the rest of the team, as hes a winger, and respectively wingers tend to score more when their teams on top, of course.
So perhaps another example.....
Priestland - Unexpectedly started at 10 during the world cup warm ups and we can all remember the performances he backed that up with at the world cup itself. This 6nations though, teams had defensive patterns to put him under pressure, they'd analysed his weaknesses and as such, we saw him struggle against England and he hasnt been at his best since.
Now, those are a bit off topic, but back-up the theory of "second season syndrome".
Back to the title, why was Wales grand slam so much more spectacular than 2005 or 2008? Because every side had obviously worked tactics to stifle this welsh side, as they knew exactly how they were going to play after the performances at the world cup. Every side tried their own way of stopping the flow of ball to the welsh backs, they tried to exploit the perceived welsh weakness of the lineout.
But, despite everyone knowing what they had to do to stop this welsh side, none were capable of doing so. The welsh side showed grit beyond most of their tender years, I've no doubt the effect of the defeat to France at the world cup is the sort of hurt these young players needed to spur them on mentally as a group.
Ireland away and England at HQ summed it up for me. They had a collective mental toughness against both of those sides, and I've no doubt that a year ago, both of those games would have been would have resulted in a close result, but no winning cigar.
I know a few have mentioned that they see this welsh side as different to the GS teams gone by recently, and I echo that sentiment.
I think thats why you guys may have to get used to us welsh being a little more excited than usual, we've seen too many false dawns, we can spot them a mile-off. This feels different for now, the NH has been unable to stop us this year, and its up we look as we go down south.
The Ozzies seem to be within arms reach, but have skipped by the last couple of games, now we'll start to see if Gatland's given this welsh squad the minerals to be more than fleeting NH grandslammers. To be more than what our rankings suggest we are, near the top of the NH tree, but strugglers against the SH big 3.
For now, I, like most other welsh posters, will bask in the warm glow of the 6nations crown with a hankering for some kangaroo, safe in the knowledge, that this welsh side has the style, the substance and perhaps the mentality to rise to the top, this may have been the missing ingrediant in years gone by.
Last edited by Comfort on Wed 21 Mar 2012, 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : atrocious spelling.)
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Comfort Thu 22 Mar 2012, 12:41 pm
Not doom and gloom, but the real difference between us and the other 3 sides this year has been our backs scoring when it mattered. Without Priestland, our backline seems to stutter and it just isn't as effective.
I dont think theres really much difference in those 4 sides either Notch. You only have to look at how hard it is for anyone to retain the championship to see how closely those sides seem to constantly be.
I dont think theres really much difference in those 4 sides either Notch. You only have to look at how hard it is for anyone to retain the championship to see how closely those sides seem to constantly be.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Hound_of_Harrow Thu 22 Mar 2012, 2:18 pm
Four different champions in the last four years should rell you that, in any year, this is not an easy title to win.
But I just want to pick up on a comment made yesterday…
“Italy, England and France wanted to try and stop play Wales playing”
The match stats on the RBS website suggest that England were trying to play their own game, rather than their priority being to stop Wales playing. England had more possession and about 50% more passes from rucks and over 20% more passes made.
In any case are teams supposed to just stand there and watch Wales dance round them?
But I just want to pick up on a comment made yesterday…
“Italy, England and France wanted to try and stop play Wales playing”
The match stats on the RBS website suggest that England were trying to play their own game, rather than their priority being to stop Wales playing. England had more possession and about 50% more passes from rucks and over 20% more passes made.
In any case are teams supposed to just stand there and watch Wales dance round them?
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Hound_of_Harrow Thu 22 Mar 2012, 2:39 pm
Just to add to that, my recollection was that after the first quarter Wales did most of the defending. And did it well.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 22 Mar 2012, 2:53 pm
True enough, Hound. We dominated the opening quarter but came away with precisely no points to show for it.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Hound_of_Harrow Thu 22 Mar 2012, 3:20 pm
Lucky, I was bricking it in those opening 15 minutes, and thought we were going to get blasted off the park!
Credit to both teams in that game for some heroic defending, which resulted in a tense contest. I knew England could go to Paris and win after holding Wales out for 75 minutes. Lawes deciding to play 'macho man' and take on three defenders was dumb. Fair play to Williams for seizing the chance though.
Credit to both teams in that game for some heroic defending, which resulted in a tense contest. I knew England could go to Paris and win after holding Wales out for 75 minutes. Lawes deciding to play 'macho man' and take on three defenders was dumb. Fair play to Williams for seizing the chance though.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by gregortree Thu 22 Mar 2012, 3:39 pm
H o H, good posts. I felt the same way that 1st 1/4, but we held out and fought on v well. Good stats on the passes. Frustrating that our strike wingers just didn't get much clean ball to run with. But then this was almost a scratch side playing in 'normal' weather for the very first time, and still bedding in. And respect to Welsh defence too. Lawes spoiled the England party.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 22 Mar 2012, 3:50 pm
Who knows, it might have been a very different game if we'd scored in that opening spell. I have to say I thought we were quite dumb in attack by and large, asking Jamie Roberts to smash through Barritt and Tuliagi, which was never likely to happen.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Notch Thu 22 Mar 2012, 4:27 pm
I love the way the current Welsh backline plays. Sometimes the centres crash it up, but sometimes they use the centres as decoys so the wingers can crash it up. Genius! 
Actually, when I think back to how Ireland played in 2009 for our Slam, there's a small chance I may just have broken one of the window panes of my glass house. Better go and check that out.
Actually, when I think back to how Ireland played in 2009 for our Slam, there's a small chance I may just have broken one of the window panes of my glass house. Better go and check that out.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by RubyGuby Thu 22 Mar 2012, 5:08 pm
Notch - that backhanded offload for JD who then carved up the Irish defence was more skill and guile than bash it up the middle. I appreciate McFadden might see it differently. There's more than than pure bosh in the welsh 3/4 line
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by maestegmafia Thu 22 Mar 2012, 5:33 pm
RubyGuby wrote:Notch - that backhanded offload for JD who then carved up the Irish defence was more skill and guile than bash it up the middle. I appreciate McFadden might see it differently. There's more than than pure bosh in the welsh 3/4 line
The running lines for Cuthberts tries against Italy and France were gorgeous as was Roberts against Italy. Pace, angle, no strength needed just skilful running and confidence. Williams try against England a clever steel, a nice chip and a good bounce was all skill.
Though George's bash it through the Ireland defence try in the first game was good too.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by geoff999rugby Thu 22 Mar 2012, 7:48 pm
english warrior wrote:Morganweg- When Wales win it is by definition a POOR G.S., not for the players, or their fans, who deserve to take all they can from it and be very proud, but lets get real, and lets be brutally honest, there are only 2 NH sides who can compete with the SH big 3 (and thats only sometimes) but Wales cannot, and will not be able to improve on their forbears who have failed dismally against these sides, both home and away.
Therefore, i feel that if Wales win, then the 6 nations is devalued, because a good England and France would win it. Not a Wum, not a pee take, but the truth and deep down every Welshman knows this. The only teams that can compete with the big 3 sh teams are the ones that i've said. I know it comes across as dismissive and i wish i could sugarcoat it, but i can't.
Nor do i think that England or France deserved the Title because Wales were better! But thats what is sad for NH rugby.
And they wonder why the English are called arrogant
From an Irishman - well down Wales you deserve it
Ignore all the small minded and totally bogus fools who are not big enough to accept they weren't good enough.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by maestegmafia Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:55 pm
Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Four different champions in the last four years should rell you that, in any year, this is not an easy title to win.
Also shows it's good competition.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by geoff999rugby Thu 22 Mar 2012, 8:56 pm
I rest my case...........................
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Taffineastbourne Thu 22 Mar 2012, 9:16 pm
Far from spectacular.Efficiient and accomplished.We did just enough.
Next year we need to up the level.There is absolutely no room for complacency.
Next year we need to up the level.There is absolutely no room for complacency.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by maestegmafia Thu 22 Mar 2012, 9:20 pm
From www.rugbydump.com
Cuthbert, still very new on the scene at just 21, scored what was effectively the winning try against France, and since spoken about how life has changed for him in recent times.
During the game Wales' young captain Sam Warburton had to go off injured after picking up a shoulder problem. The prognosis is still unknown, but he's having it checked out today following an MRI Scan that proved inconclusive.
Cuthbert, still very new on the scene at just 21, scored what was effectively the winning try against France, and since spoken about how life has changed for him in recent times.
Alex Cuthbert wrote:
It's crazy how much everything has changed in such a short time. I could never have thought I would be scoring the winning try in a Grand Slam game six months ago. I was just expecting to train with the Blues seniors," he said.
There is still a huge amount of development and learning to come from both the team and, of course, myself. Being in the Welsh environment has already upped my game, playing with world-class players like George (North).
I do look up to George – even though he is only 19. We are still so young, as are many of the boys. As the years go by, we can only get better.
During the game Wales' young captain Sam Warburton had to go off injured after picking up a shoulder problem. The prognosis is still unknown, but he's having it checked out today following an MRI Scan that proved inconclusive.
Sam Warburton wrote:
Not much showed up on it. There is a bit of concern because I am still in quite a bit of discomfort. I do not know what to think – it could be two weeks, or it could be two months.
I felt guilty lifting the trophy because I could see the state of some of the players. Their bodies were hurting because they had tried so hard. I was embarrassed not to be able to play in the second half, as well as shattered. It was the biggest game of my career.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 22 Mar 2012, 9:31 pm
Hang on a minute so Warburton was shattered and in pain, but embaressed because the other players were hurting?
Come on lad, you gave it your all and potentialy damaged your long term health. Stop being such a martyr and enjoy the glory. Your mates let you down last time you left them to win an important game, consider this payback.
Come on lad, you gave it your all and potentialy damaged your long term health. Stop being such a martyr and enjoy the glory. Your mates let you down last time you left them to win an important game, consider this payback.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Thu 22 Mar 2012, 9:32 pm
Taffineastbourne wrote:Far from spectacular.Efficiient and accomplished.We did just enough.
Next year we need to up the level.There is absolutely no room for complacency.
There is room for space marks after fullstops though. It makes text so much more easy on the eye.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Taffineastbourne Thu 22 Mar 2012, 9:47 pm
Have a long soak in the bath.Things are getting on top of you,Peter.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by maestegmafia Thu 22 Mar 2012, 9:51 pm
We all have tough days.Some tougher than others.But there is always tomorrow.Taffineastbourne wrote:Have a long soak in the bath.Things are getting on top of you,Peter.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Taffineastbourne Thu 22 Mar 2012, 10:27 pm
Hope so,Maesteg!maestegmafia wrote:We all have tough days.Some tougher than others.But there is always tomorrow.Taffineastbourne wrote:Have a long soak in the bath.Things are getting on top of you,Peter.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by dragonbreath Thu 22 Mar 2012, 11:45 pm
I agree to an extent insofar as they have a determination and belief in themselves. The other sides were a little surprised at the end. This side I got the feeling kind of expected it.
I still don't think they are as talented as the other two sides however, but they are still young men who may well improve. They certainly have the appetite to improve and having come so close on the Global stage this domestic stuff is by their standards the bare minimum. It is that above all else that will drive them to the next level
I still don't think they are as talented as the other two sides however, but they are still young men who may well improve. They certainly have the appetite to improve and having come so close on the Global stage this domestic stuff is by their standards the bare minimum. It is that above all else that will drive them to the next level
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Notch Fri 23 Mar 2012, 1:03 am
RubyGuby wrote:Notch - that backhanded offload for JD who then carved up the Irish defence was more skill and guile than bash it up the middle. I appreciate McFadden might see it differently. There's more than than pure bosh in the welsh 3/4 line
Yeah, I know. I was just yanking you chain really. It's a bita bantah! As you say in Wales
No, Wales played some great rugby but I feel there's more we haven't seen from the Wales backline actually.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 23 Mar 2012, 7:51 am
Notch, that could be the best thing about it: that we won the Grand Slam (not at a canter by any means) without having played all that much rugby, or only playing rugby in patches. Certainly, we'll have to have more to our game if we want to beat the Wallabies in a few months' time. Now they have wit and invention in spades behind the scrum.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by Woodstock Fri 23 Mar 2012, 8:27 am
Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Four different champions in the last four years should rell you that, in any year, this is not an easy title to win.
But I just want to pick up on a comment made yesterday…
“Italy, England and France wanted to try and stop play Wales playing”
The match stats on the RBS website suggest that England were trying to play their own game, rather than their priority being to stop Wales playing. England had more possession and about 50% more passes from rucks and over 20% more passes made.
In any case are teams supposed to just stand there and watch Wales dance round them?
Still lost at home though
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by maestegmafia Fri 23 Mar 2012, 8:33 am
Well they face the masters of backplay down south, hopefully Australia will be a good trip that we come away from stronger if nothing more.Notch wrote:RubyGuby wrote:Notch - that backhanded offload for JD who then carved up the Irish defence was more skill and guile than bash it up the middle. I appreciate McFadden might see it differently. There's more than than pure bosh in the welsh 3/4 line
Yeah, I know. I was just yanking you chain really. It's a bita bantah! As you say in Wales
No, Wales played some great rugby but I feel there's more we haven't seen from the Wales backline actually.
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Re: Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?
by RubyGuby Fri 23 Mar 2012, 10:03 am
Notch wrote:RubyGuby wrote:Notch - that backhanded offload for JD who then carved up the Irish defence was more skill and guile than bash it up the middle. I appreciate McFadden might see it differently. There's more than than pure bosh in the welsh 3/4 line
Yeah, I know. I was just yanking you chain really. It's a bita bantah! As you say in Wales
No, Wales played some great rugby but I feel there's more we haven't seen from the Wales backline actually.
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