Why was wales grand slam so spectacular?

First topic message reminder :

S x 3.

S S S.

Or more commonly known as Second Season Syndrome.

We often see young players bursting onto the international scene and making a huge impression only for their brightness to fade after a while as coaches and teams analyse the players strengths and weaknesses. They can then struggle for a period before they adapt their game or another unknown threat bursts into their team and catches the attention of the analysts.

Eg. Chris Ashton - Burst onto the international scene matched the 6ns try-scoring record and seemed unstoppable after that try against the ozzies. But then, what happened? Now, you could point the finger at the rest of the team, as hes a winger, and respectively wingers tend to score more when their teams on top, of course.

So perhaps another example.....

Priestland - Unexpectedly started at 10 during the world cup warm ups and we can all remember the performances he backed that up with at the world cup itself. This 6nations though, teams had defensive patterns to put him under pressure, they'd analysed his weaknesses and as such, we saw him struggle against England and he hasnt been at his best since.

Now, those are a bit off topic, but back-up the theory of "second season syndrome".

Back to the title, why was Wales grand slam so much more spectacular than 2005 or 2008? Because every side had obviously worked tactics to stifle this welsh side, as they knew exactly how they were going to play after the performances at the world cup. Every side tried their own way of stopping the flow of ball to the welsh backs, they tried to exploit the perceived welsh weakness of the lineout.

But, despite everyone knowing what they had to do to stop this welsh side, none were capable of doing so. The welsh side showed grit beyond most of their tender years, I've no doubt the effect of the defeat to France at the world cup is the sort of hurt these young players needed to spur them on mentally as a group.

Ireland away and England at HQ summed it up for me. They had a collective mental toughness against both of those sides, and I've no doubt that a year ago, both of those games would have been would have resulted in a close result, but no winning cigar.

I know a few have mentioned that they see this welsh side as different to the GS teams gone by recently, and I echo that sentiment.

I think thats why you guys may have to get used to us welsh being a little more excited than usual, we've seen too many false dawns, we can spot them a mile-off. This feels different for now, the NH has been unable to stop us this year, and its up we look as we go down south.

The Ozzies seem to be within arms reach, but have skipped by the last couple of games, now we'll start to see if Gatland's given this welsh squad the minerals to be more than fleeting NH grandslammers. To be more than what our rankings suggest we are, near the top of the NH tree, but strugglers against the SH big 3.

For now, I, like most other welsh posters, will bask in the warm glow of the 6nations crown with a hankering for some kangaroo, safe in the knowledge, that this welsh side has the style, the substance and perhaps the mentality to rise to the top, this may have been the missing ingrediant in years gone by.

See below.

HERSH wrote:Who said England are the best team in the world?

We're the 4th best.

How did you work that one out HERSH? You didn't even finish as high as fourth in the penultimate competition.

Finishing second in the 6 Nations however was the worst thing, it has led to delusion from the fans. The delusion that England will one day be the best team in the world. #confused.com.

Someone on here brought up the fact that no one was calling for Shane Williams to return in this campaign. Thats a good sign of how we're coping without a legend.

Comfort – I am not denying that Wales were the best team in the tournament* for a number of reasons, not least the ‘grit’ (as you call it) showed to come from behind to win their two away games against Ireland and England.

* Sorry MRW, maybe I should have said that first

There were some exciting games in that many were settled by a score or less, and some right at the end of the game. It was more that the overall quality in the tournament was somewhat down on most of the previous years.

I do put this down in the main to defences tightening up and the coaches’ insistence that their teams defend high up the field (i.e. kicking for territory) and then try to force penalties.

Nothing wrong with it as a game plan, and South Africa won a World Cup in that fashion. I just call it pragmatic – ‘ smart’ would be another term if it wins you games.

Morgannwg wrote:Finishing second in the 6 Nations however was the worst thing, it has led to delusion from the fans. The delusion that England will one day be the best team in the world.

In fairness, Morgannwg, England have been the best team in the world. We've never been the best team in the world.

flyhalffactory wrote:

english warrior wrote:Wales + B.S.= Hype!!


The Welsh side is good , but nowhere near as good as some people (The Welsh) are proclaiming. They Narrowly beat an England side, freshly emerged from the ashes of the Johnson era, and won with more a helping hand from that perennial friend of England, Steve Walsh.

Nevertheless, win they did, and nothing can take away from their G.S, but i do think that come the summer when they take on the Sh Giants, then we will be able to assess just how Good, or how over-hyped they really are.

Personally, i'll go for the over-hyped!

WOW
Massive chip .................... I have some cod with a few of those

I would say most of the Welsh posters have stated that theu didnt play to their potential this series.

You can argue that a side who plays poorly yet wins 5 games on the trot has potential to be a great side

Alot of this Welsh side are young with very little experience in regional/club level yet alone international exposure, on the plus side their are quiite a few players who will be pushing for first team places as well........ Ryan Jones, Shingler, Turnbull, Mitchell, Scott Williams, Tovey, Matthew Morgan etc etc.

It'll be quite interesting to hear your views come the Summer and Autumn Internationals on how Wales and England are progressing

What is interesting about this concurrent line from posters like EW, HERSH et al, (aside from the fact that I do sometimes think they are actually the same bloke posting on a few different IP addresses), is this constant tirade of "England are only a few weeks old", "new regime" or "look at all the work Lancaster has done" etc etc etc...

Last Year England won the Six Nations, this year they were second. How is that progress?

RE The age argument that this is a new side and they are all youngsters note that England's squad are, on average age, only 1 year younger than last years RWC and Six Nations Squads, both of which contained more than a few blokes in their mid thirties.

Why does it always have to come down to Wales v England? It's a ridiculous state of affairs that we are always reduced to this perpetual argument. I like beating England but it's not the be all and end all. Personally I would like us to beat SA a bit more (nothing personal Biltong).

I don't agree with most of what EW said, Wales winning the 6 nations doesn't devalue it

But I can't take all this talk of Wales being world beaters seriously as we all know that if Wales were to play the All Blacks this weekend or SA and Aus in their own countries there would only be one result.

A GS is a GS. It was by far the least thrilling of the trio but well-deserved all the same. You can't expect to always win it pretty. That'll do for me, I said all along we needed to carry the WC form into the future and so far we have done that... to an extent. We weren't at our best but we were evidently too much for anyone else to handle
I'd say that's hugely promising if anything.

Roll on Australia

HERSH wrote:I don't agree with most of what EW said, Wales winning the 6 nations doesn't devalue it

But I can't take all this talk of Wales being world beaters seriously as we all know that if Wales were to play the All Blacks this weekend or SA and Aus in their own countries there would only be one result.

Its hard to say in my view. I don't think Australia and SA are as strong as they once were. How many sides from the NH go to the All Blacks and win a test match, not to mention SH teams. Wales need to be looking to beat the SH teams at home in the AI and that includes NZ to announce their arrival on the big stage. They got the players, the coach and mentality to reach that level in rugby, of that i'm sure. Difference between this GS winning side and others is that it has age on its side, not to mention it being together for just a few months. Its hardly like they have waited 5 years for this team to click now has it.

A 1 point defeat to SA in the RWC whilst butchering easy kicking opportunities hardly suggests there's only going to be one result in the SH if we played them tomorrow

RubyGuby wrote:A 1 point defeat to SA in the RWC whilst butchering easy kicking opportunities hardly suggests there's only going to be one result in the SH if we played them tomorrow

No such thing as an easy kicking opportunity if your players don't have the mental toughness to execute the kick whilst under pressure.

Must be getting Wales confused with England for some odd reason, as there is only one winning team between the two.

HERSH wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:A 1 point defeat to SA in the RWC whilst butchering easy kicking opportunities hardly suggests there's only going to be one result in the SH if we played them tomorrow

No such thing as an easy kicking opportunity if your players don't have the mental toughness to execute the kick whilst under pressure.

What about our conversion that went over. We lost to SA despite scoring more points in a sense. Hopefully we can see "We're only losing by a couple of points" a thing of the past and say in the future "Great win against the 'Bok's, Aussies" and "Finally that NZ game is that monkey off our back".

You want me keying that Rangey again

You are right about our kicking though - we have missed some sitters

"What about our conversion that went over."

But it didn't, thats like saying England scored a try in the last move of the game against Wales at Twickers!

RubyGuby wrote:You want me keying that Rangey again

You are right about our kicking though - we have missed some sitters

Seemed to rectify that during the six Nations by entrusting our kicking at goal in young Halfpenny though didnt we...

He won the game against ireland with a pressure kick, few nice ones a long the way against the other teams too...!

HERSH wrote:"What about our conversion that went over."

But it didn't, thats like saying England scored a try in the last move of the game against Wales at Twickers!

yes but the camera angle at the game which they could have used showed the kick going over, the one at Twickers didn't show a try being scored...

HERSH wrote:"What about our conversion that went over."

But it didn't, thats like saying England scored a try in the last move of the game against Wales at Twickers!

So then we're agreed, it wasn't the ref, England just couldn't score tries.

That took long enough!

Hounds, I think you English are too used to playing winning rugby, and therefore consider it pragmatic. Us welsh are used to seeing offloads thrown from anywhere, to anyone, anywehere near, in anything resembling a welsh jersey. To us, pragmatic rugby is smart rugby

The OP wasnt necessarily about this being the best 6ns ever, or the tournment itself being spectacular. More my opinion on this welsh side and its potential, then clarifying why i think its spectacular (for Wales) in comparison to their 2005/2008 grand slams.

martyr_94 wrote:

yes but the camera angle at the game which they could have used showed the kick going over, ...

Dont start that again, you sound like a Truther.
Noone outside of Wales has seen this camera angle. I assume it looks like it goes over if your depth perception is affected by looking at it through one eye. Its no wonder the Wales team now has a picture of Nelson on its shirts.

Knowsit17 I think you have me confused with someone else or you’re assuming that I said something which I didn't.

Maesteg - 1/2p missed a couple of sitters during the tournament that would have settled a lot of nerves - Its costing us

I think the difference is Ireland and Scotland wanted to try and take Wales on at playing rugby, Wales had more fire power behind, and scored 3 tries in both those games.

Italy, England and France wanted to try and stop play Wales playing, and drag us into a battle of attrition, those 3 teams lost as well.

I don't accept any argument that Wales got worse later in the tournament, I just think that Scotland and Ireland had enough self belief to try and take us on, the others didn't.

Lets be clear about one thing, the teams who wanted a tight battle, none of them managed to score a try against us. Where as Ireland and Scotland scored tries as well as conceded them. Wales conceded 24 points in the last 3 games, no tries at all.

What 2012 has proven is Wales can win with flair and win with brute force.

I don't think any team Wales beat was robbed in their Welsh game. France, Ireland and England could of gone either way but it went Wales way more often than not because of a moment of brilliance from a member of our back line, that was the difference between Wales and the rest this season.

martyr_94 wrote:

HERSH wrote:"What about our conversion that went over."

But it didn't, thats like saying England scored a try in the last move of the game against Wales at Twickers!

yes but the camera angle at the game which they could have used showed the kick going over, the one at Twickers didn't show a try being scored...

Apart from the one behind the line which was only shown once, but did show that the ball was grounded.

The positive thing is I can't see Australia sitting back in defence like Italy and France did to try frustrating us, they'll come to play. When's the last time they went all out to spoil for the opposition backline rather than fire their own?

But if they do try this tactic we're going to have to be wiser to the challenge, not just run stubbornly at them all afternoon.

RubyGuby wrote:Maesteg - 1/2p missed a couple of sitters during the tournament that would have settled a lot of nerves - Its costing us

Almost cost us the Grand Slam eh...!

Luckily the pressure kicks went over.. the two that young Farrell missed against Wales this year would not have pushed the game in Englands favour.

HERSH wrote:

martyr_94 wrote:

HERSH wrote:"What about our conversion that went over."

But it didn't, thats like saying England scored a try in the last move of the game against Wales at Twickers!

yes but the camera angle at the game which they could have used showed the kick going over, the one at Twickers didn't show a try being scored...

Apart from the one behind the line which was only shown once, but did show that the ball was grounded.

Neither points were awarded as they were both inconclusive at best.

What are you both arguing about?

Maesteg -He missed easy ones early on v Ireland and England, right in front of the posts from about 28 metres - I think he'd be better off asking the ref if he could take the kicks back about 30 metres, he'd be fine then.

maestegmafia wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Maesteg - 1/2p missed a couple of sitters during the tournament that would have settled a lot of nerves - Its costing us

Almost cost us the Grand Slam eh...!

Luckily the pressure kicks went over.. the two that young Farrell missed against Wales this year would not have pushed the game in Englands favour.

Yeah its a bit much to fault Halfpennys kicking. Farrell may have ended the torunament with the best percentages but Halfpenny has the range and ability. Comapred to the chuckle brothers at the world cup (and some of the sympathy kicks they let Presitland take in the 6 nations) hes world class.
All kickers will miss once in a while, halfpenny does so less often than most.

Ruby/Maes - Its the failing to put points on for all the early pressure we create in the games. Thats what's worrying me.

Comfort wrote:Ruby/Maes - Its the failing to put points on for all the early pressure we create in the games. Thats what's worrying me.

I agree, we really start with a bang these days.

I am sure it will be analysed.

Thing is a defence should be at its best at the start of a match, not likely to be caught unaware these days in the professional era. I think that we break down defences through our persistence well though... Look at the first half scores we have made.

Vs France Cuthbert 20 mins
Vs Ireland Davies 13 mins

And half time Scores

Vs Italy Roberts 49 mins
Vs Scotland Cuthbert 41 mins

Only against England did a defence hold out until the end but we still crossed their line.

I think scores either come or they don't, cant fault the game management too much. We are converting most of our early penalties.

Why was Wales Grand Slam so spectacular? Why? Because it was a aGrand Slam that is why.

Personaly before the tournament i did not think that their would be a GRAND SLAM this year. why i hear you ask? because it was just after a Rugby World Cup.

After a Rugby World Cup teams are often changing either the team (players leaving retiring and new playersa being brought in) or the coach ( coaches either being sacked/being repalced)

I thought that France with Saint Andre would be more dangerous this year than last.

England with a caretaker coach realy surprised me to be honest, even though i wanted England to win, i realy did not expect them to win, and to get second place was a very good start for a new team.

However Wales did win the Grand Slam, and that proves that Wales have kept their consistancy from the Rugby World Cup. Wales now need to go to the SH and carry their form on.

I would also like to point out one thing, even though Wales won the Grand Slam. They are still below England in the IRB world rankins.

Maj you cheeky devil

They are indeed, and it shows the difference in consistency over the years for both teams against SH opposition.

As we all agree, the real acid test for Wales will be against those top 3 we seem to be so bad at beating. Too many close losses but this seems to be a corner we're turning in the tighter affairs. Fingers crossed we can continue on this upwards curve in results and take a few notable scalps this year.

A scalp thats all black wouldn't go amiss, even my father wasn't around for the last one! jheez.

Comfort wrote:
Eg. Chris Ashton - Burst onto the international scene matched the 6ns try-scoring record and seemed unstoppable after that try against the ozzies. But then, what happened?

He became top try scorer at the 2011 RWC.

I'm not a massive fan of Ashton and I get your point, just being pedantic.

For me, this has been my favourite one because the other two I have seen were not that memorable for me. 2005 I was in Hannover, Germany which was great because I was with a few Welsh guys and I will never forget the German who came up to me celebrating because Wales had won. That said I can't really remember where I was for the other games. 2008, all I can remember is being at the Stadium for Wales v Scotland, but I couldn't even remember where I was for the Slam game against France till Saturday (I was in my wife's local in Inverness which wasn't too memorable).

This year I saw the first two games in Afghanistan, but couldn't really watch the first game because of it clashing with football (ironically the only times I could watch Wales v Ireland we were losing). The England game was when I was in Cyprus on my way home, which was good as it was my first time I could drink in four months (albeit only four cans). The Italy game I was back in my Rugby Club which was great seeing my mates again and the French game I was fortunate enough to be there. So even though Wales' performances haven't been great, I can honestly say that this tournament has been my favourite (given the closeness of the majority of games) and certainly the most memorable as every game at least holds memories for me personally.

Risca Rev... You seem to 'get around', are you a traveller? Or have some sort of post with the RAF consdiering you were in Afghan and Cyprus? I know they got bases there.

martyr_94 wrote:What about our conversion that went over. We lost to SA despite scoring more points in a sense.

You still beleive that kick went over?

biltongbek wrote:

martyr_94 wrote:What about our conversion that went over. We lost to SA despite scoring more points in a sense.

You still beleive that kick went over?

You still believe that ref was one sided?

Morgannwg wrote:Risca Rev... You seem to 'get around', are you a traveller? Or have some sort of post with the RAF consdiering you were in Afghan and Cyprus? I know they got bases there.

After a tour of Stan Soldiers do some decompression time in Cyprus it involves taking time to wind down and take out aggression in a controlled environment including getting used to beer again.

Cymroglan wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Risca Rev... You seem to 'get around', are you a traveller? Or have some sort of post with the RAF consdiering you were in Afghan and Cyprus? I know they got bases there.

After a tour of Stan Soldiers do some decompression time in Cyprus it involves taking time to wind down and take out aggression in a controlled environment including getting used to beer again.

So pretty much the same as englands world cup tour then?

maestegmafia wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

martyr_94 wrote:What about our conversion that went over. We lost to SA despite scoring more points in a sense.

You still beleive that kick went over?

You still believe that ref was one sided?

You see, I never said Lawrence was one sided, I said he just didn't officiate the breakdown.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Risca Rev... You seem to 'get around', are you a traveller? Or have some sort of post with the RAF consdiering you were in Afghan and Cyprus? I know they got bases there.

After a tour of Stan Soldiers do some decompression time in Cyprus it involves taking time to wind down and take out aggression in a controlled environment including getting used to beer again.

So pretty much the same as englands world cup tour then?

You're right...! I thought it was Ayia Napa that the RFU sent the RWC squad to decompress, but some one else had said Santorini and i think that's in Greece...!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Risca Rev... You seem to 'get around', are you a traveller? Or have some sort of post with the RAF consdiering you were in Afghan and Cyprus? I know they got bases there.

After a tour of Stan Soldiers do some decompression time in Cyprus it involves taking time to wind down and take out aggression in a controlled environment including getting used to beer again.

So pretty much the same as englands world cup tour then?

Good one

Morgannwg wrote:Risca Rev... You seem to 'get around', are you a traveller? Or have some sort of post with the RAF consdiering you were in Afghan and Cyprus? I know they got bases there.

That's it Morgan, the Rev is a gypsy

HERSH wrote:Why is it when Wales grind out a win they get congratulated on showing grit an determination, blah blah etc...

Yet!

If England does the same we are called boring and negative?

Whine whine whine HERSH, as usual. England squeaked past Ireland by a narrow 21 points solely on the back of dominating one small area of the game. And it didn't really count anyway as it was raining which, as any fool knows, always works unfairly in England's favour. Keep up there at the back.

A spectacular Grand Slam is like England in 2003 when the final tricky game away was won against the GS rivals by 5 or 6 clear scores, or Wales in 2005 when their attacking rugby blew everyone away. This year's GS was thoroughly deserved, built on pragmatism, the precious ability to close out tight games and a wealth of largely untapped attacking potential. Roundhead rugby not Cavalier - but students of history will tell you which one of those prevailed over the other.

Anyone minded to ask 'why was this year's GS so spectacular?' rather than same question without the first and penultimate words is deluding himself. Nothing on display throughout any game of the 6N will have worried any of the SH3. One team, however, hinted that they might be able to give the SH3 a good game and, as a result, deservedly won the GS.

SimonofSurrey wrote:

HERSH wrote:Why is it when Wales grind out a win they get congratulated on showing grit an determination, blah blah etc...

Yet!

If England does the same we are called boring and negative?

Whine whine whine HERSH, as usual. England squeaked past Ireland by a narrow 21 points solely on the back of dominating one small area of the game. And it didn't really count anyway as it was raining which, as any fool knows, always works unfairly in England's favour. Keep up there at the back.

A spectacular Grand Slam is like England in 2003 when the final tricky game away was won against the GS rivals by 5 or 6 clear scores, or Wales in 2005 when their attacking rugby blew everyone away. This year's GS was thoroughly deserved, built on pragmatism, the precious ability to close out tight games and a wealth of largely untapped attacking potential. Roundhead rugby not Cavalier - but students of history will tell you which one of those prevailed over the other.

Anyone minded to ask 'why was this year's GS so spectacular?' rather than same question without the first and penultimate words is deluding himself. Nothing on display throughout any game of the 6N will have worried any of the SH3. One team, however, hinted that they might be able to give the SH3 a good game and, as a result, deservedly won the GS.

Simon, was it you who wrote this on Jerry Guscotts QA?

With Wales securing their third Grand Slam in eight years, and in that time Ireland and France also winning Grand Slams, do you think the Grand Slam is being devalued? Simon, England

Absolutely not. I NEVER would call any GS 'devalued'. That's an insult to any side who has the skill, guile and mental toughness - and you need all three - to win one. So full marks to Wales for doing so this year, no ifs or buts about it. And certainly no 'd' word.

Not guilty.

[quote="MajorRoadWorksNewTraditonalHaka implies a Kiwi, but your location is Aus.

So which are you, and why are you so worried ? Afraid the NH has at last caught up with the SH are you.... Must be time for some more rule changes then.... [/quote]

Whoa Major you need to chill
It seems a few agree that it was not a "spectacular Grand Slam". Heaps of people have congratulated Wales on their win.
What does it matter if the person is a Kiwi or an Aus. Have you never heard of people living in foreign countries.
Why do you think he/we are worried?
And lastly stop with that stupid rule changes stuff. We all know how many votes each country has in the IRB and where the power is.

Well done Wales on winning some good tight games. But if you want spectacular then smash em!

I'm confused. The World Cup and Six Nations were in the same, current, season. Surely you can only talk about second season syndrome or the lack of it in 2012/2013?