Scotland Squad for Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Only 75 days until the first game of the summer tour against Australia in Newcastle NSW (5 June 2012). I was thinking the other day about who’d be included in the squad and who would be left out. Robbo took 27 players on tour in 2010, so I’ve been looking at roughly 30 players for the tour given that it’s 3 games instead of 2, split 17 forwards and 13 backs.

Let’s start with the squad for the last 6N game

John Welsh
Ross Ford
Goeff Cross
Richie Gray
Jim Hamilton
John Barclay
Ross Rennie
David Denton
Scott Lawson
Euan Murray
Al Kellock
Ritchie Vernon

Mike Blair
Greig Laidlaw
Sean Lamont
Graeme Morrison
Nick De Luca
Max Evans
Stuart Hogg
Chris Cusiter
Ruaridh Jackson
Jack Cuthbert

Now this needs some revision as there are a few players who shouldn’t be taken on tour, plus a few will be returning form injury and some youngsters who should be given the chance to prove themselves. I’ve always said that we need these young guys to have 20+ caps by the time the next WC comes around.

Potential squad additions:

Forwards
Kelly Brown (injured)
Al Strokosch (injured)
Rob Harley
Chris Fusaro
Ed Kalman
Moray Low
Alan McDonald
Stuart McInally

Backs
Lee Jones (injured)
Joe Ansbro (injured)
Rory Lawson (injured)
Harry Leonard
Matt Scott
Tom Brown
Jim Thompson
Tim Visser
Duncan Weir
Alex Dunbar
Mark Bennet

So what do the Scottish supporters on 606 think about the potential squad. Who would you include? Any suggestions for players I’ve not mentioned?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
The template of Stuart Hogg is the one we ought to be replicating. Strong performances for the U20s, straight into professional rugby in his preferred position, strong performances at club level then straight (or what should have been straight) into the national side. It doesn't need to take long, and that certainly isn't being conservative.

So, raelly not that straight after all - personally I'd like the final lap of the Hogg template scrapped for ever more

Ok, came off the bench at the second opportunity, but you get my drift. He should have started the tournament at 15, as many of us had hoped he would. A small amount of blame should also go to Lineen regarding that decision though. He mucked Hogg around before the tournament sticking him at 13 (giving the 15 jersey to the endlessly depressing Peter Murchie). A good international selector would have seen past that however....

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
The template of Stuart Hogg is the one we ought to be replicating. Strong performances for the U20s, straight into professional rugby in his preferred position, strong performances at club level then straight (or what should have been straight) into the national side. It doesn't need to take long, and that certainly isn't being conservative.

So, raelly not that straight after all - personally I'd like the final lap of the Hogg template scrapped for ever more

Ok, came off the bench at the second opportunity, but you get my drift. He should have started the tournament at 15, as many of us had hoped he would. A small amount of blame should also go to Lineen regarding that decision though. He mucked Hogg around before the tournament sticking him at 13 (giving the 15 jersey to the endlessly depressing Peter Murchie). A good international selector would have seen past that however....

Murchie, who was then drafted in by Robinson as potentail fullback cover? Both decisions stink of the long hand of Robinson, if you ask me

Another thought on the youngsters......

They need to be capped by Scotland or Scotland A as soon as possible so that they are tied to Scotland. Look at the Shingler case for a perfect example.

If Bennett really is that good, then what's to stop France poaching him in three years through the residency rule?

Guys,
I've upped my medication and am feeling quite chilled - however everytime I read or hear about the Warrior's situation - SRU inflicting Townsend on us and Robinson's role in that fiasco -my blood starts to boil and the little vein at the side of my forehead starts to throb uncontrollably !

Good man, c21st, more will do the trick

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:If Bennett really is that good, then what's to stop France poaching him in three years through the residency rule?

Fofana, Mermoz, Rougerie, Fritz, Bastereud....

I'm not too worried!

I've said it here before but all this talk of Bennet being involved is ridiculous - has he even played for the Clermont senior team yet? There's no way you can pick someone who has played for the under 20's and for a club's youth team and then suddenly pick him for Scotland.

Plus we're actually doing OK for 13's just now with Asbo, De Luca, Scott, Lamont, Cairnsy (if he comes back strong from injury - here's oping) Dunbar, Dewey etc... so there's no need to quickly rush him into the team.

OK I take back the Dewey - can't even joke about that!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've said it here before but all this talk of Bennet being involved is ridiculous - has he even played for the Clermont senior team yet?

Yes

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've said it here before but all this talk of Bennet being involved is ridiculous - has he even played for the Clermont senior team yet? There's no way you can pick someone who has played for the under 20's and for a club's youth team and then suddenly pick him for Scotland.

Plus we're actually doing OK for 13's just now with Asbo, De Luca, Scott, Lamont, Cairnsy (if he comes back strong from injury - here's oping) Dunbar, Dewey etc... so there's no need to quickly rush him into the team.

OK I take back the Dewey - can't even joke about that!

You can't even joke about Lamont anymore RDW.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:If Bennett really is that good, then what's to stop France poaching him in three years through the residency rule?

Fofana, Mermoz, Rougerie, Fritz, Bastereud....

I'm not too worried!

Doesn't matter who they've got now, it's who will be the best in three, four, five years time.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've said it here before but all this talk of Bennet being involved is ridiculous - has he even played for the Clermont senior team yet?

Yes

When about and how often? General point is still valid though- he's not proved himself as a professional player yet, never mind and internationalist, so given we have options at 13 just now wait and see what he's like as a pro.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've said it here before but all this talk of Bennet being involved is ridiculous - has he even played for the Clermont senior team yet?

Yes

When about and how often? General point is still valid though- he's not proved himself as a professional player yet, never mind and internationalist, so given we have options at 13 just now wait and see what he's like as a pro.

During the RWC and before he got injured - twice, maybe?

It's not that massively a different situation to when Chick Chalmers was drafted into the Scottish team at the tender age of 19 - both were/have been identified as being the most talented player of their generation by some margin - what's to lose with giving the guy a shot on a summer tour that (now, thanks to Robinson) counts for jack Poopie?

I don't know the background to Chalmers being selected to play for Scotland - had he really only played a couple of rugby matches before pulling on the jersey?

I'm with RDW - we're getting ahead of ourselves with Bennett. There are options ahead of him who deserve to play more.

I don't see how Bennett can be considered "the most talented player of his generation" without having played any significant amount of professional rugby (and having played well at that level). Isn't Stuart Hogg "his generation"? How can we declare Bennett a better player when Hogg he shown he has what it takes at professional and international level?

As for the residency point Tattie, hopefully, when Bennett realises that Clermont is stifling his ambitions to be a professional and international rugby player, he'll come home and actually get exposure to proper rugby. He need only look at what's happened to Stuart Hogg to see what could have been had he made the right call and stayed at Glasgow. He was poorly advised.

ASBO - calm down!

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't know the background to Chalmers being selected to play for Scotland - had he really only played a couple of rugby matches before pulling on the jersey?

I'm with RDW - we're getting ahead of ourselves with Bennett. There are options ahead of him who deserve to play more.

I don't see how Bennett can be considered "the most talented player of his generation" without having played any significant amount of professional rugby (and having played well at that level). Isn't Stuart Hogg "his generation"? How can we declare Bennett a better player when Hogg he shown he has what it takes at professional and international level?

As for the residency point Tattie, hopefully, when Bennett realises that Clermont is stifling his ambitions to be a professional and international rugby player, he'll come home and actually get exposure to proper rugby. He need only look at what's happened to Stuart Hogg to see what could have been had he made the right call and stayed at Glasgow. He was poorly advised.

ASBO - calm down!

I am calmness personified, my friend!

Chalmers's first cap was awarded on the same day that Lineen won his first cap at 12, and Gary Armstrong was winning his second cap. Back in the good old days, if you were good enough, you played - didn't have to wrack up club caps!

Lineen was 12 when he won his first cap?? I'll bet you were pleased....

funnyExiledScot wrote:I don't know the background to Chalmers being selected to play for Scotland - had he really only played a couple of rugby matches before pulling on the jersey?

I'm with RDW - we're getting ahead of ourselves with Bennett. There are options ahead of him who deserve to play more.

I don't see how Bennett can be considered "the most talented player of his generation" without having played any significant amount of professional rugby (and having played well at that level). Isn't Stuart Hogg "his generation"? How can we declare Bennett a better player when Hogg he shown he has what it takes at professional and international level?

As for the residency point Tattie, hopefully, when Bennett realises that Clermont is stifling his ambitions to be a professional and international rugby player, he'll come home and actually get exposure to proper rugby. He need only look at what's happened to Stuart Hogg to see what could have been had he made the right call and stayed at Glasgow. He was poorly advised.

That's quite a claim FES old socks. He would have had much more exposure to 'proper rugby' had he not been injured and Bennett has gone on the record to say that he is admirative of Clermont staff who brought him back to fitness whilst not putting him under any pressure to perform whatsoever. I'm not saying that Glasgow wouldn't have done that - I just think that when you're a teenager you could learn more from the likes of Fofana than the likes of Morrison. He also needs to learn the level of competition for starting berths in the top flights clubs, because with all due respect, that's what he should be aiming for.

I'm just saying.

who is calling Rougerie a good french centre??????

tigertattie wrote:who is calling Rougerie a good french centre??????

His mum?

Is Blair Cowan the Worcester No8 worth taking a shot with on the summer tour. Has been playing really well for Worcester recently and carries the ball really well and knows where the try line is. Apart from Denton there aren't any real stand out 8s at the moment as the others like Vernon have all had their downsides.
Cowan is in good form and could be worth taking especially for playing against the hard hitting islanders.

I didnt know he was qualified? Sounds like he could be...

Yeah he is qualified for Scotland, think it is his dad who is Scottish.

Nice one, could be worth dropping the sru a quick note.

England fan here, some things I'd like to see Scotland try this summer:

Laidlaw at SH. Has a good pass, an eye for a gap, but not much good in defense and kicking game decidedly dodgy.

Weir at FH. Impressed me in the H Cup, gets his backline moving nicely, and is a good kicker from hand and from the tee. A more rounded FH than Laidlaw IMO.

Scott/Ansbro in the centres. Heard lots of good things about Max Scott, Scotland's biggest problem in the last few years has been picking a guy who couldn't/wouldn't pass at IC (Morrison or Lamont). De Luca's run out of chances probably, and Ansbro is a good player.

Brown, Rennie and Denton in the backrow. Looks much more balanced than with Barclay in there (good player though he is).

Thoughts?

Am I right in hearing Ali Hogg has signed a 3 year deal with Newcastle? THink it's fair to say he's pretty much given up on his international career, which is a shame as 5 years ago he was being touted as a future Scotland captain.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:England fan here, some things I'd like to see Scotland try this summer:

Laidlaw at SH. Has a good pass, an eye for a gap, but not much good in defense and kicking game decidedly dodgy.

Weir at FH. Impressed me in the H Cup, gets his backline moving nicely, and is a good kicker from hand and from the tee. A more rounded FH than Laidlaw IMO.

Scott/Ansbro in the centres. Heard lots of good things about Max Scott, Scotland's biggest problem in the last few years has been picking a guy who couldn't/wouldn't pass at IC (Morrison or Lamont). De Luca's run out of chances probably, and Ansbro is a good player.

Brown, Rennie and Denton in the backrow. Looks much more balanced than with Barclay in there (good player though he is).

Thoughts?

I think most Scots will agree with you there (although it is Matt, not Max!). The long term for Scotland is definitely Laidlaw at 9 and Weir at 10 IMO. The problem just now is that Blair is in good form and works well with Laidlaw.

RDW why does signing with the Falcons mean that? Or have I misread you? I think its a good move for him personally.

As in if they get relegated this year (which chances are they will) Robinson says he won't pick anyone from the Championship.

I'd hazard a guess they'll be down, and he'll only be out of the picture, for a season then? No?

I reckon we have better options at 13 than Bennett who has only played a handful of pro matches. Ansbro, NDL are probably ahead of him in the pecking order.

I reckon had he stayed in Scotland he would have been exposed to more rugby and been in a better position for selection.

By my own admission I don't know much about what he has done at Clermont and I think he'll struggle to displace fofana for the 13 shirt.

Yeah Hogg has signed a 3 year deal with the Falcons. Don't know if there had been any fallings out with Robinson as he doesn't seem to like Hogg. Hogg still seems to have been playing well and I can't remember him having a bad game for Scotland. His try scoring for Scotland is pretty impressive too, think its 10 in 50 tests which not too many have done in recent years.

Yes but he is definitely case in point that a lot can change in a season or 2 - he'll be 30 by then and, considering Denton, Ryan Wilson, Vernon and McInally will be older and wiser and more experienced I think he's a bit behind in the pecking order!

I really rate Hogg and would love him to be in the Scotland team and playing well, but I don't see it happening if he's at Newcastle, even if they do return to the premiership in September 2013.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I reckon we have better options at 13 than Bennett who has only played a handful of pro matches. Ansbro, NDL are probably ahead of him in the pecking order.

I reckon had he stayed in Scotland he would have been exposed to more rugby and been in a better position for selection.

By my own admission I don't know much about what he has done at Clermont and I think he'll struggle to displace fofana for the 13 shirt.

Fofana is at 12 for Clermont (and France), it is Rougerie at 13

RDW has Robinson actually said he wont pick from the Championship? I'd question the logic in that decision if he has. Beggers cant be chosers and all that...

Pretty sure he has. The papers have definitely being saying so anyway. Indeed Alex Grove had to come to Edinburgh on loan as he wasn't going to get picked if he played in the championship.

I'd do the same if I was coach - massive step up to international rugby if you are largely playing against semi-pro's week in week out

Yeah Majestic,

Ryan Wilson playing very well at 8 for The Warriors - good carrier. Will go in the summer tour I presume !!!!!! Stand by for another Robinson brain fart on that one !

Mad for/ RDW,
Laidlaw had a poor 6Ns by his own high standards and really is a SH not a FH. Blair had a very good 6Ns and seems to have rediscovered his pre-Lions tour form. Duncan Weir must get a go at 10 for a run - Jackson just cannot cut it at this level.

Need to get rid of dimwit Robinson first though !

Would Blair and Weir really go together?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Would Blair and Weir really go together?

Why not, RDW? The Weir you are used to seeing is the one at Glasgow who is orchestrated to play in a certain way, rather than the one that we witnessed for the A team in the England fixture earlier this year - two very different players and I know which one I prefer

RDW,

do not see why not- should have been tried v Italy by the Not So Dynamic Duo.

Reckon fES has been talking to Meathead (from the Herald):

Weir willing to do what’s needed to take the next step

DUNCAN Weir may have been the young pretender having his first taste of international rugby in the RBS Six Nations Championship, but he has emerged from the tournament in pole position with Glasgow and determined to make a concerted push for Scotland’s No 10 jersey next season.


Weir’s priority is to steer Glasgow to their second appearance in the RaboDirect PRO12 play-offs in three years and, as he enjoyed a day off from training in the sunshine yesterday, his mind was turning to the prospect of facing Dan Parks and Cardiff at Firhill tomorrow night.

The teams will be named today, but Weir is expected to start after a good display against Aironi at Firhill last Friday and knows another victory would keep the Warriors on track and almost kill off the Blues’ hopes of catching them.

He said: “Hopefully, Dan will be playing because, at this stage in my career, I’m looking for challenges and, when you’re learning about controlling a game, there is no-one better than Dan at that.

“If I am selected it will be a great opportunity to test my tactical kicking against one of the best game managers in the business.

“This is a huge game for us, but so are all the remaining four before the play-offs and the guys have been working really hard to push each other. There is a real determination to push on and win these games and get into the play-offs.”

Weir’s season has followed the pattern he hoped, from taking advantage of Ruaridh Jackson’s involvement with the World Cup in pre-season and the opening two months of the campaign, pushing on with improved displays in the Heineken Cup, getting a call into the Scotland squad in the Six Nations and finally coming off the bench for his first cap against France.

He duly scored his first international points and, having suffered with a shoulder injury last year after stepping up to Scotland A level, he deserves all he has achieved.

Weir will turn 21 in May, so he is just over three years younger than Jackson, who came through his own injury-enforced delayed development.

Now both are fit and improving, Jackson sharpening his kicking game after just a handful of appearances this season while Weir responds well to the challenge of leading the back line more, taking the ball flatter and asking questions with ball in hand. Both are also working on finding the balance necessary to control games, but that only comes with match experience.

There has been talk among supporters of one of them moving to Edinburgh to get that most precious of commodities in a stand-off’s development, game-time.

But, with Harry Leonard and Gregor Hunter coming through at Murrayfield and Greig Laidlaw the man in possession, there is no such move being discussed by the SRU. What may be of greater benefit could be for either Weir or Jackson to move a postion out to inside centre, in the way Matt Scott has done with aplomb at Edinburgh.

Jackson could be the kind of player who would take to the second five-eighth role of a centre with a head-up approach and game skills of a stand-off and has played there at Scotland A level.
Both are also competent full-backs and, if Stuart Hogg was to be deployed in the role that many envisage for him, as a new threat at outside centre, perhaps the No 15 jersey on the back of Jackson or Weir could bring the best out of all three players.

That kind of thinking may by in the mind of Gregor Townsend, who will take over from Sean Lineen as Glasgow head coach next season and who himself played in various roles at international level.

Weir said: “It will be sad to see Sean go because he has been great since I joined the club but I’m looking forward to Gregor coming in because I’ve worked a lot with him over the past year.

“Gregor working one-to-one on skills is fantastic and he has been great to work with in the Scotland camp. Having learned so much from Sean I’m sure I’ll learn a lot from Gregor as well.

“Me and Jacko have joked about that [switching positions], to make sure we both get in the team, but there hasn’t been any chat with coaches about it. If I had a choice of starting on the bench or starting at inside centre or full-back I’d definitely take the latter because I just want to start and I think there is a lot you can learn about the game from playing other positions.”

He added: “Obviously, at the moment I’m just trying to learn more about stand-off play at the highest level. Playing against France was a great experience and I’ve learned a lot from being involved in the Six Nations squad, little things from the coaches about things I can work on to improve my game, and what’s needed at international level and how you have to be able to justify the decisions you make. I know the results weren’t that good but, from my point of view, the team played well in almost every game and could have won all of them if little things had gone right.

“The hype around the tournament was fantastic and the experience was great overall, but I have to forget that and work hard to take the things I’m learning into games and improve.

“I was pleased last week with the way myself and [scrum-half] Henry [Pyrgos] controlled things and put pressure on Aironi, and now we have to build on that against Cardiff and take Glasgow forward again.

“Then, maybe, in the future I’ll get to experience more days like the one against France.”

I'd be happy to see what Jackson could do at 12. He would be a much bigger threat to defences than Morrison.

Who needs Jackson at 12 when you've got Matt Scott!

Mainly for a Glasgow perspective RDW, and it's always nice to have some depth in the drawer instead of reverting to Morrison.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Mainly for a Glasgow perspective RDW, and it's always nice to have some depth in the drawer instead of reverting to Morrison.

True that.

Don't think his defence would be up to it at international level though. He might be exposed like Laidlaw was as a player out of position

Matt Scott is 6ft1 and a strong young lad. Laidlaw is much smaller at only 5ft9.

I was talking about Jackson there sorry about the confusion

I've said for some time Glasgow should be open to trying Jackson at 12. With a lump like Dunbar or S Lamont giving an option at 13, Jackson could work there, with Weir controlling the game at 10.

I think it's worth trying, perhaps not in the starting XV but certainly off the bench perhaps if the match situation calls for it.

As for the point about his defence, I don't see the issue. Sure, he's not a powerful tackler, but if he can't bring down his man at 12 then I don't see how he can be an option at 10 either.

I think (though being in the pack I don't know) that you are more exposed at centre and have more 1-on-1 tackles without the safety net of the backrow to cover you. I just think looking at all the better teams that he would struggle with the monsters they have in the centres.

I think Jackson being tried at 12 is a good idea, he certainly has the skills for there and in defence I think Jackson is normally fairly solid. Maybe not the biggest hitter but has a good tackling technique. Certainly a different and potentially better option for Glasgow than what morrison is and would add competition for the 12 spot with Scotland.

In my opinion this should be the starting squad vs Australia:

15. Hogg
14. Jones
13. DeLuca (as long as the Edinburgh pairing is still working) or Ansbro if not
12. Scott
11. Visser

10. Weir
9. Blair/Laidlaw

8. Denton
7. Rennie
6. Brown if fit, McInally if not
5. Kellock (don't rate Hamilton, never have plus we don't need the weight v Aus)
4. Gray
3. Low
2. McArthur/Ford
1. Welsh

By my count I have introduced more young players than Robinson did for that horrible 6 Nations, I think he's just going to have to pull his finger out otherwise the proverbial poo will really hit the SRU office fan. I basically think that we need to cut out the oldies completely, they've had their chances, now lets see what this generation can do without being held back by others.