Scotland Squad for Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

Only 75 days until the first game of the summer tour against Australia in Newcastle NSW (5 June 2012). I was thinking the other day about who’d be included in the squad and who would be left out. Robbo took 27 players on tour in 2010, so I’ve been looking at roughly 30 players for the tour given that it’s 3 games instead of 2, split 17 forwards and 13 backs.

Let’s start with the squad for the last 6N game

John Welsh
Ross Ford
Goeff Cross
Richie Gray
Jim Hamilton
John Barclay
Ross Rennie
David Denton
Scott Lawson
Euan Murray
Al Kellock
Ritchie Vernon

Mike Blair
Greig Laidlaw
Sean Lamont
Graeme Morrison
Nick De Luca
Max Evans
Stuart Hogg
Chris Cusiter
Ruaridh Jackson
Jack Cuthbert

Now this needs some revision as there are a few players who shouldn’t be taken on tour, plus a few will be returning form injury and some youngsters who should be given the chance to prove themselves. I’ve always said that we need these young guys to have 20+ caps by the time the next WC comes around.

Potential squad additions:

Forwards
Kelly Brown (injured)
Al Strokosch (injured)
Rob Harley
Chris Fusaro
Ed Kalman
Moray Low
Alan McDonald
Stuart McInally

Backs
Lee Jones (injured)
Joe Ansbro (injured)
Rory Lawson (injured)
Harry Leonard
Matt Scott
Tom Brown
Jim Thompson
Tim Visser
Duncan Weir
Alex Dunbar
Mark Bennet

So what do the Scottish supporters on 606 think about the potential squad. Who would you include? Any suggestions for players I’ve not mentioned?

That's great news ABSO. Certainly two options for us moving forward.

Hmmm, neither Muldowney nor Rennie seem to me to be internationals in waiting, but I guess it's good to have options that are actually playing good quality rugby.

At the very least it should mean that Scotland A are as competitive as possible.

I watched the London Irish vs Leicester game yesterday. Shingler didn't have a great game but does look to have promise, and Ansbro was decent going forward but not impressive defensively (although Flood did have a stormer at 10 putting his centres into space).

We need to find Homer a Scottish granny.

George Carlin wrote:Can someone tell me what's happened to Mr Roderick Grant?

Take it you mean Roddy Grant? Having kept Rennie out of the team earlier in the season I think it is fair to see Bradley will be welcoming him back with open arms. Grant has not been great in an Edinburgh team that has been awful.

I thought the latest was that he had been given the 6 jersey with McInally at 7. Inspired.

If Denton and Rennie don't go straight back onto the flanks against the Scarlets then the SRU will need to "promote" Bradley into a more influential role.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I thought the latest was that he had been given the 6 jersey with McInally at 7. Inspired.

What worries me is he said it was done as McInally might be utilised there against Toulouse...

Come on, it's pretty obvious that McInally would dominate the breakdown against Dusatoir and Nyanga. You're not giving Bradley enough credit here.

Godman at 10 also makes sense. Simon Webster?

Yeah, not sure what Bradley's thinking was there.

Did you guys read that Godman could be off to Racing Metro?

I did yeah - would be happy with that! For all the abuse he gets the guy has been fantastic for Edinburgh over the years but he's past his best now and will be a on a large salary.

Racing obviously think he's amazing after that winning drop goal.....

Agreed. I remember when he was the next 'great hope'. I really feel for the guy. How old is he? Could he come back? Is Fraser Gillies still at Racing?

Wow, didn't hear about Godman.

Agreed RDW, he's been a great servant to Edinburgh over the years, and at times has been the driving force behind some great attacking rugby. The timing of his move is sensible though. With Laidlaw, Leonard and Scott in the squad, and hopefully Alex Blair returning, it's time for the next generation. Having him move to RM only increases our options.

The writing was on the wall when a Youtube video was made showing off his skills - you should all check it out, he has done some really good things over the years! Was hilarious looking at the "tackles" part of the video though.

He's 29 or something so will be looking for a decent pay packet.

what happened to Grove?

I'd still like to see a partnership of him and Ansbro. Might mean the ball would get to the wingers!

If not grove, then get young Scott out there and let him see hwat he an do.

Summer tours really should be for experimenting! No other point in going.

Losses to Oz, in Oz, are not going to effect our rankings much.

Wins in Oz though..............

Give some of the fringe players a shot!

It's Fiji and Samoa, in their back yards, that I'm most worried about!

nickj wrote:Is Fraser Gillies still at Racing?

Nope, at Exe uni, recovering from another knee op, I believe

Thanks ASBO. That's a bugger. It sounds like he's had two or more. Is that why he left Racing?

Grove scored at the weekend, as did McKibben on his first start in super rugby since 2009, played well aparently.

nickj wrote:Thanks ASBO. That's a bugger. It sounds like he's had two or more. Is that why he left Racing?

Not sure if he was always just going for a year's sabbatical with Racing or brought his academy contract to an early end, but I know that he struggled initially and didn't seem to be enjoying things.

Scot Abroad wrote:Grove scored at the weekend, as did McKibben on his first start in super rugby since 2009, played well aparently.

And Cuthbert got sin binned for a stupid challenge - something that ultimately contributed hugely to Barrf losing. Definitely get him in the squad.

ASBO - I see that your Maitland for Scotland campaign is gathering momentum:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/international-rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=476&objectid=10792804

Maitland's the lad with a, uh, raging thirst in his free time, isn't he?
What could be more Scottish than that?

George Carlin wrote:

Scot Abroad wrote:Grove scored at the weekend, as did McKibben on his first start in super rugby since 2009, played well aparently.

And Cuthbert got sin binned for a stupid challenge - something that ultimately contributed hugely to Barrf losing. Definitely get him in the squad.

ASBO - I see that your Maitland for Scotland campaign is gathering momentum:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/international-rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=476&objectid=10792804

Maitland's the lad with a, uh, raging thirst in his free time, isn't he?
What could be more Scottish than that?

Nah, GC, that's Zac Guilford, i think

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

Scot Abroad wrote:Grove scored at the weekend, as did McKibben on his first start in super rugby since 2009, played well aparently.

And Cuthbert got sin binned for a stupid challenge - something that ultimately contributed hugely to Barrf losing. Definitely get him in the squad.

ASBO - I see that your Maitland for Scotland campaign is gathering momentum:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/international-rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=476&objectid=10792804

Maitland's the lad with a, uh, raging thirst in his free time, isn't he?
What could be more Scottish than that?

Nah, GC, that's Zac Guilford, i think

I'd be happy with Zac pulling on the thistle.

"Scotland has begun a global trawl for players that will no doubt begin with them trying again to lure Crusaders wing Sean Maitland."

When did we try the first time?

It sounds like we tried in 2010, but he decided to sign a new contract.

I'd take:

Back 3- Hogg, Brown, the lamonts, Jones, Visser, Evans
Centres - Ansbro, Bennett, De Luca, Scott, Dunbar, Grove
Half Backs- Laidlaw, Weir, Leonard, Jackson, Cusiter, Blair
Back row- Denton, Beattie, Fusaro, Barclay, Rennie, Harley, Macinally, Brown, Vernon
Second Row- Hamilton, McKenzie, Gilchrist, Gray, Kellock
Props- Welsh, Cross, Low, Murray, Jacobsen,
Hooker- Lawson, Ford, MacArthur

A large squad but across 4 games and we should be looking to retain the young core of our team such as Gray, Denton, Hogg etc. but try out players in the less secure positions such as fly-half and the centres


I'd take Bennett to get him included in the squad and get him playing internationally, if he isn't good enough yet he''ll learn from the experience and if he is then everyone gains something.

I'd take Beattie because on form he is special and therefore long term we should be looking to include him in the squad even if he doesn't play.

I'd take a lot of the young back rowers not necessarily to play but to get them involved. Let's use this tour to start Scotland's revival.

I'd take Leonard partly to get him involved but also to give him a chance to play with the best rather than at the u20 world cup.

The centres might be light weight but if that proves to be the case Lamont could fill in and Dunbar is large, it might be a bit low on the inside centre front but Leonard can do a job there if need be.

My starting team vs Australia

15. Hogg
14. Evans
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Jones
10. Weir
9. Blair
8. Denton
7. Rennie
6. Brown
5. Hamilton
4. Gray
3. Cross
2. Ford
1. Welsh

16. Murray
17. Lawson
18. McKenzie
19. MacInally
20. Laidlaw
21. Jackson
22. Sean Lamont

Bit of a green centre pairing there. Scott and Bennet are big lads but having them playing their 2nd and 1st caps against Aus could be a bit much. Robbo is more likely to want a more internationally experienced centre pairing, but it's not like we're going to be facing O'Conner, Barnes and Ashley-Cooper. If ever there was a chance to take a SH scalp on their own patch this is it.

So a centre partnership of De Luca and Morrison is going to go through the Aussie back line?

We need to bring in some new players because we could end up with some real competition for places soon

15. Hogg vs Brown
Wings- Visser vs Jones vs the Lamonts vs Evans
13. Bennett vs Dunbar vs Fife? vs De Luca
10. Leonard vs Weir vs Jackson
8. Denton vs Beattie vs Vernon
7.Fusaro vs Rennie vs Barclay
6. Harley vs MacInally vs Brown
5. Gilchrist vs MacKenzie vs Hamilton vs Kellock

One Two,
like it mate

Talk of Bennett starting for Scotland in the summer (without having barely played 100 minutes of professional rugby) is one thing, but are people genuinely putting down Dougie Fife as a genuine option to play 13 for Scotland this summer (or even "soon")??

If so, I'm offended that my name isn't also on the list.

The best two options for the summer at 13 are Ansbro and Grove. Punish De Luca and leave him at home if you want to, but those two guys are the best alternatives.

fES, you're on my list, don't worry. Tend to agree re Fife, haven't seen anything yet in his two brief Edinburgh outings to suggest he's international standard. Campbell I would consider taking tho - the boy looks to have it

Scot Abroad wrote:Bit of a green centre pairing there. Scott and Bennet are big lads but having them playing their 2nd and 1st caps against Aus could be a bit much. Robbo is more likely to want a more internationally experienced centre pairing, but it's not like we're going to be facing O'Conner, Barnes and Ashley-Cooper. If ever there was a chance to take a SH scalp on their own patch this is it.

There's an interesting difference in approach here.

What is the purpose of this tour?

Is it to try to get our IRB ranking up again? Or is to blood new players? Of course you can try to tick both boxes, but which is the priority?

If not on a tour like this, then when exactly is it worth playing the youngsters? ALL international games matter in the context of boosting our international IRB number but similarly if we don't hit our straps in the next RWC cup by having a core of young players with at least 20 caps each then the coach will have failed to prepare the team properly. We were cautious during the Six Nations because it was the Six Nations, but our success there was directly limited by the extent to which AR's hand was forced to take a punt on the unknown and untested.

Are Scott and Bennett likely to be overawed by being in the international squad? Possibly. Is it worth throwing them in at the deep end? Absolutely.

Is it worth hauling Leonard or Clyne out of the U20 tournament? Yes, because it's the senior team that matters.

Am fed to the teeth of being so conservative. I honestly believe that this is the one time where it genuinely doesn't matter a shoite whether we 'put on a good show', 'run anyone close' or 'show signs of improvement'. IT DOESN'T MATTER provided our brightest and best get some game time.

Am nearly as angry as Schizoid at the moment.
Almost.

George Carlin wrote:

Scot Abroad wrote:Bit of a green centre pairing there. Scott and Bennet are big lads but having them playing their 2nd and 1st caps against Aus could be a bit much. Robbo is more likely to want a more internationally experienced centre pairing, but it's not like we're going to be facing O'Conner, Barnes and Ashley-Cooper. If ever there was a chance to take a SH scalp on their own patch this is it.

There's an interesting difference in approach here.

What is the purpose of this tour?

Is it to try to get our IRB ranking up again? Or is to blood new players? Of course you can try to tick both boxes, but which is the priority?

If not on a tour like this, then when exactly is it worth playing the youngsters? ALL international games matter in the context of boosting our international IRB number but similarly if we don't hit our straps in the next RWC cup by having a core of young players with at least 20 caps each then the coach will have failed to prepare the team properly. We were cautious during the Six Nations because it was the Six Nations, but our success there was directly limited by the extent to which AR's hand was forced to take a punt on the unknown and untested.

Are Scott and Bennett likely to be overawed by being in the international squad? Possibly. Is it worth throwing them in at the deep end? Absolutely.

Is it worth hauling Leonard or Clyne out of the U20 tournament? Yes, because it's the senior team that matters.

Am fed to the teeth of being so conservative. I honestly believe that this is the one time where it genuinely doesn't matter a shoite whether we 'put on a good show', 'run anyone close' or 'show signs of improvement'. IT DOESN'T MATTER provided our brightest and best get some game time.

Am nearly as angry as Schizoid at the moment.
Almost.

Jeebus, GC, that's an awful lot of anger! But +1

Nobody is angrier than schizoid. Nobody.

Agree about just starting with a new team, they make take a couple of drubbings, but if they have the mental strength, they'll learn from it and grow as players.

I personally think that the summer tour is the ideal place to give the youngsters first team experience. However, given our poor WC and even worse 6N, I feel the emphasis has shifted somewhat. Losing to Aus may not affect us much in terms of ranking points, but we absolutely must beat Fiji and Samoa if we are to have any hope of making the top 8 by December. There’s a possibility that we will drop out of the world’s top 12, which would mean pot 4 if we hadn’t already secured at least a pot 3 position. How can this be happening to Scottish rugby? I’m all for taking the youngsters with the team on tour, we’re playing 4 games and will need the bodies, but the focus must be on winning, not seeing if the young guys can handle international rugby. I would say the main centres on the tour would be Scott, Morrison, Ansbro and Grove with Bennet also included. Nick De Lucas’s future in the Scotland jersey is in balance. He’ll have to put on some very good displays from now to the end of the season. By all means, some of the youngsters should be included in the squad, they need to get used to being in that type of environment.

I think our best chance of capturing maitland is getting out the tranquilizer darts and then blasting him with images of irn bru whilst feeding him deep fried mars bars and reading him robbie burns tied up on ben nevis with just a kilt to keep him warm.

We'd have to subsequently show him images of New Zealand drip feeding him a substance that makes him feel ill.

Yeah I think we can capture some New Zealand talent if we use that method!

So let's say we pick Morrison and his lot and we scrape a win against Australia and beat Fiji and Samoa by ten or more points thus meaning we get a pot two (I'm not sure exactly how it works) position, would you honestly be happy when we spend the next three or four years waiting for Scotland to "fulfill their potential" or to "cut out silly mistakes" whilst at the same time recording bottom half six nations finishes?

In all honesty I'd much rather we picked Brown, Bennett, Scott, Weir etc. and ended up in pot three because then I believe we will have a chance of winning the six nations rather than beating Italy most years and recording the odd win over England or Ireland. So why not give them a chance now? Surely Mark Bennett being on the pitch for eighty minutes is better than De Luca for seventy. Grove is still young and therefore should be looked at as well and the likes of Ford, Hamilton, the "killer Bs", Blair and the lamonts should be kept in and around as should De Luca if he stops being an imbecile but apart from that the other lot of that age group should be shunted out. They weren't good enough last year, they certainly weren't good enough this year and I'd bet a million pounds they won't be good enough next year!

Imagine this:

15. Hogg
14. Visser
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Maitland
10. Weir
9. Blair
8. Denton/ Beattie
7. Rennie/ Barclay
6. Brown/ Harley
5. Gilchrist
4. Gray
3. Nel
2. Ford
1. Welsh

16. Cross
17. Lawson
18. Hamilton
19. Denton/ Rennie/ Beattie/ Barclay
20. Laidlaw
21. Leonard
22. Brown

On the downside at least 5 weren't produced from Scotland but they all qualify legally (Except perhaps Nel but I think he has a Scottish grandparent).

Unfortunately with the way the WC seedings work we need to be in the top 8 by December otherwise we risk having to play 2 top seeds again in 2015. When the draw was made for 2011 I actually thought we were lucky to get England and Argentia as we could have just as easily had NZ and France in our pool, which could have been very embarrassing. If we want to get beyond the group stages we need to be in the top 8. Between the 6N, summer tours and autumn internationals we have about 36 internationals before the next WC. The first step should be doing our best to make pot 2 to give us the best possible chance of making the QF at least. We don’t need to radically overhaul the backline and I do agree that some of the youngster should be taken on tour but I don’t agree that they should all be thrown in against Australia. I’d give Scott his first start but that’s probably it.

Backline to face Australia of

15 Hogg
14 Evans
13 Ansbro
12 Scott
11 SLamont
10 Laidlaw
9 Blair

20 Cusiter
21 Weir
22 Grove

Yes but surely we should be looking to win the world cup in 2015 or at least the semis therefore we should be in a situation where we could compete against most top eight teams, to do this we need to get our young players to be experienced. Bennett is a special player just watch highlights from Scotland u20 games; even if he's not playing for Clermont bring him in to the Scotland squad them we should know if he's good enough.

A young side such as the one below would give most teams a run for their money not beat them but certainly compete with the current Italy side add in the likes of Visser, Evans, De Luca, Blair, Rennie, Ford, Hamilton, Cross, Barclay,Brown, Beattie etc. and we have a very good team. The youngsters we have coming through could have a chance to be one of the top three European teams by 2015, why not play them now? We can't do any worse in the six nations.

15. Hogg
14. Brown
13. Bennett
12. Scott
11. Jones
10. Weir
9. -
8. Denton
7. Fusaro
6. Harley
5. Gilchrist
4. Gray
3. Grant
2. MacArthur
1. Welsh

Lads, I hate to tell you, but its going to take a minor miracle (aka beating the All Blacks) for us to avoid pool 3 even at this stage - we needed to win our last two 6Ns games to be in with a sensible chance of top 8, but that has gone

Yes, that's the aim of the SRU. But it'll be much easier if we're in a group with only one top 8 team. After the WC draw ranking points don’t matter so yes we should be looking to get these players involved in the national setup. I said it before that they should have at least 20 caps by the next WC. I guess it just depends where the priorities are. Should we concentrate on doing our best to make the top 8 at the risk of not introducing a couple of players until next year, or do we throw caution to the wind and blood them now and not care about our position since we have that 3rd pot place already? In my mind the next 3 games are too important to not play our best side. Yes Bennet, Dunbar, Brown look promising but they have limited or no game time and expecting them to be able to cope with the intensity of Australia is a big ask.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Lads, I hate to tell you, but its going to take a minor miracle (aka beating the All Blacks) for us to avoid pool 3 even at this stage - we needed to win our last two 6Ns games to be in with a sensible chance of top 8, but that has gone

It's not quite out of our reach yet, given the possible movement of Arg and Ire. We just need to win 5 out of our next 6

I would think about taking a group of young players on this tour in addition to the main touring party in order to speed their development. They would be there primarily to train and experience rugby culture abroad. As an example, having watched Nick Campbell playing for Glasgow recently, he looks to have the attributes to make it to the Scotland team (the big scrummaging Hamilton type role) in the next few seasons and should be helped along asap.
Brown, Dunbar, Bennett etc would also fit into this group, and I'd also consider taking players from the 7s such as James Fleming.
A main squad of around 30 players plus an additional 6-10 young prospects.

The other thing to bear in mind about this summer tour, lads, is that the first game is against Australia on the Tuesday prior to their first game on the Saturday of a triple header against Wales - reckon we'll not see that many of the big names

I'm all up for taking up the new broom and blooding more new players - just look at how Rennie, Denton, Welsh, Jones and Hogg did when they finally got their chances. I just want to see it done in a measured and sensible way... an most importantly has an eye on our ranking.

This doesnt mean being conservative. This doesnt mean we need to play Morrison at 12. It just means we dont throw out talent just because we're bored of what we've got. I am bored of losing but we've finally got a new spine to our team. That spine looks pretty good to me, so lets give it a tour to bed in.

I think its a case of tinkering with our starting 15, rather than shipping in the Browns, Leonards etc en masse. Lets use the summer to bed in the new talent we already have, plus Visser and Scott; move Laidlaw to 9 and allow Weir and Jackson to share the 10 shirt.

That's about enough for me. Its extremely easy to get over excited about new shiny things on a forum, but what evidence do people have for thinking Leonard, Fife or Bennett would not benefit from playing together at the U20's?

nickj wrote:I'm all up for taking up the new broom and blooding more new players - just look at how Rennie, Denton, Welsh, Jones and Hogg did when they finally got their chances. I just want to see it done in a measured and sensible way... an most importantly has an eye on our ranking.

This doesnt mean being conservative. This doesnt mean we need to play Morrison at 12. It just means we dont throw out talent just because we're bored of what we've got. I am bored of losing but we've finally got a new spine to our team. That spine looks pretty good to me, so lets give it a tour to bed in.

I think its a case of tinkering with our starting 15, rather than shipping in the Browns, Leonards etc en masse. Lets use the summer to bed in the new talent we already have, plus Visser and Scott; move Laidlaw to 9 and allow Weir and Jackson to share the 10 shirt.

That's about enough for me. Its extremely easy to get over excited about new shiny things on a forum, but what evidence do people have for thinking Leonard, Fife or Bennett would not benefit from playing together at the U20's?

Fife was born on 5th Feb 1990

Pretty irrefutable

nick, I feel it's going to be a fine balance - we can't take a hugely inexperienced side down there, that would be plain silly, but we should be looking to take the opportunity to blood another short handful at this level in my view

Fife was born on 5th Feb 1990? I suspect for many on here that makes him too old to play international rugby. Throw him on the scrap heap I say.

I completely agree with Nickj. I absolutely want to take young talent on the summer tour, just not children who haven't played professional rugby. The won't learn anything, they really won't.

I also hate the term "development tour". It sends completely the wrong message to the opposition and to the players who get picked. The emphasis should be that the players who tour are there on merit. As a happy coincidence that includes a number of young players with few caps: Welsh, MacArthur, Shiells, potentially Grant, Gilchrist, Harley, potentially Fusaro, Denton, Weir, Jackson, potentially Leonard, Scott, Jones, potentially Brown and Hogg.

These players aren't going for "development", they're going because they deserve to be there, and many of them deserve to start.

The list may change between now and the end of the season (e.g. if Pyrgos continues to play as he did against Aironi then there's a good case for him being the 3rd scrum half ahead of Cusiter and Lawson). Candidates could play their win in or out of the squad, but there are some good young players who ought to be going on that plane. Nothing to do with "development".

If creating successful rugby teams only depended on slinging in players as early as humanly possible then other sides would have latched onto the idea and just stuck their U18s onto the pitch and waited 4 years for inevitable success. It doesn't work like that. Look at club form and pick from there, it is by far the best indicator as to who will succeed at international level and who will not.

The template of Stuart Hogg is the one we ought to be replicating. Strong performances for the U20s, straight into professional rugby in his preferred position, strong performances at club level then straight (or what should have been straight) into the national side. It doesn't need to take long, and that certainly isn't being conservative.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Fife was born on 5th Feb 1990? I suspect for many on here that makes him too old to play international rugby. Throw him on the scrap heap I say.

At last some sense from you, fES!! Beginning to think the long journey north had scrambled your wits!

funnyExiledScot wrote:
The template of Stuart Hogg is the one we ought to be replicating. Strong performances for the U20s, straight into professional rugby in his preferred position, strong performances at club level then straight (or what should have been straight) into the national side. It doesn't need to take long, and that certainly isn't being conservative.

So, raelly not that straight after all - personally I'd like the final lap of the Hogg template scrapped for ever more

"Unfortunately with the way the WC seedings work we need to be in the top 8 by December otherwise we risk having to play 2 top seeds again in 2015"

this, in my opinion,is what is fundamentally wrong with Scottish rugby.

What is the point in stiffling the growth of the team if our aim is to avoid 2 of the top 8 teams in the next WC?

At some point in the WC you need to face a "top 8 team". If we were sooooo worried about facing 2 of them in the pool stages, why bother going? We should be looking at every team as beatable opposition.

Such pesimistic (some say realistic) views are what is hindering us. It should not matter if we have Eng and Arg again in the next WC, we should be aiming to beat them, not bloomin avoiding them!

I agree Tigertattie - I don't give a stuff about the rankings frankly. Not a big stats man, which is what they are.

I'd far rather we just focused on picking the right team to the end of winning rugby matches. The rankings will take care of themselves. They don't attach any more or less importance to rugby matches in my view.

As you rightly say, if we approach the WC hoping to avoid difficult rugby matches then we're in the wrong business.