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Foundations

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formerly known as Sam
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler
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Post by Triangulation Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:03 pm

What our cartakers have done exceptionally well is to start with the fundamentals. The foundations have been laid in a remarkably short space of time.

Selection on form not reputation - TICK
Fitness and conditioning - TICK
Team culture, work ethic, lines of communication, respect and all that. - TICK
Then - scrum, lineout, restarts. - TICK
Then defensive organisation, counter rucking philosophy, - TICK
Kick chase organistation - TICK

Next stage - consolidating all of the above and…

- Work on creating more in attack and on general play understanding between players,

- Giving more players more responsibility to make decisions.

- Continue to foster massive competition for places. This is what really drives up performance levels.

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Post by Biltong Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:06 pm

I will agree with you on new blood, yes, and your defensive discipline and organisation was what impressed me most.

Team, culture etc is hard too tell as those are aspects mainly measured behind closed doors.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:22 pm

Triangulation wrote:
Fitness and conditioning - TICK

Really?


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Post by Triangulation Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:42 pm

Yes in the very limited time available I thought that with the exception of Fatty Morgan we looked ok fitness wise. I didn’t get the impression that we were unable to live with the welsh supermen from poland, did you?

Granted its a work in progress.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:49 pm

I thought Morgan's fitness improved over the tournament.

The next big step is to re-organise the attacking patterns to allow the 9 and 10 options and the ability to shape the attack through choices. At the minute England are far to predictable in attack, painfully so with phase ball. In fact I think we managed one try in the whole of the tournament from phase play and that was Tom Croft against France, that is pretty poor.

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Post by Geordie Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:20 pm

Selection on form not reputation - TICK

This was the area i feel Matin Johnson really let himself down with some puzzling selections. On the whole this 6ns was based on good selections. The only one i queried was Botha...and even he has performed well.

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Post by Triangulation Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:23 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Selection on form not reputation - TICK

This was the area i feel Matin Johnson really let himself down with some puzzling selections. On the whole this 6ns was based on good selections. The only one i queried was Botha...and even he has performed well.

I have had my doubts about the class of Botha. But i have been impressed with his incredible work rate from the SROW this 6N. He is almost making himself indispensible and i suspect is part of the reason for the resurgence in form of Mr Croft. Doing some spade work for him.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:32 pm

Im sorry but Lancaster hasnt been in charge long enough to have worked significantly on the palyers fitnesss, and there are other blowhards in the side than Morgan which suggests to me he hasnt been over concerned about this when selecting players.
Now Morghan is a n extreme example, but he will be worked lon termm on of course. Farrell too tends to fade as the game goes on, and had to come off early for cramp. Tuilagi usually looks out of it by 70 minutes. We havent seen enough of Lawes to know if hes more than 60 minute player yet but I doubt it. On a positive not Cole is a flipping machine, immense work most notably against Ireland.
Corrct me if Im wrong but didnt England concede a lead and lose the game against Wales, hardly evidence they are fitter?
In general terms England did get through a lot of work and do have mobile players on the whole, but Im not convinced they are especially strong in that area.
You cant call it a failing of the coaches, its a failing of the saxons and age grade coaches if these kids are coming up less well developed than their Welsh counterparts. So thatd be ..of Stuart Lancaster then Doh Thats a jokey comment though, I dont mean this as an attack on them. Just if question if its one area England have the base they need in yet, or if they are as fit as the previous team. Its certainly an area Johnson was tough on.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:36 pm

I have had my doubts about the class of Botha. But i have been impressed with his incredible work rate from the SROW this 6N. He is almost making himself indispensible and i suspect is part of the reason for the resurgence in form of Mr Croft. Doing some spade work for him.

I think that Botha has taken on the Deacon role of doing the dirty unglamourous stuff. That certainly helps the pack and frees up Parling and Croft to attack in the midfield and get across the park. I think what has made the difference for Croft is that Robshaw is such a reliable tackler around the tight areas Croft doesn't need to be there and so can concentrate on sweeping across and targeting the backline ball carriers, chasing kicks and winning turnovers by getting to the breakdown first. During the RWC and the build up Wood and Moody failed to offer that for different reasons. Moody being injured and Wood being given little game time to get a working relationship going.

Corrct me if Im wrong but didnt England concede a lead and lose the game against Wales, hardly evidence they are fitter?

That game was lost by a fresh player who came off the bench and gave away a cheap turnover. Can't blame that try on a lack of fitness it was a mixture of skill (considerable amount there of) and luck (bounce of the ball). Certainly further work could and should be done on that area but as you say he's only had the squad a couple of months.

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Post by Triangulation Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:37 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Im sorry but Lancaster hasnt been in charge long enough to have worked significantly on the palyers fitnesss, and there are other blowhards in the side than Morgan which suggests to me he hasnt been over concerned about this when selecting players.
Now Morghan is a n extreme example, but he will be worked lon termm on of course. Farrell too tends to fade as the game goes on, and had to come off early for cramp. Tuilagi usually looks out of it by 70 minutes. We havent seen enough of Lawes to know if hes more than 60 minute player yet but I doubt it. On a positive not Cole is a flipping machine, immense work most notably against Ireland.
Corrct me if Im wrong but didnt England concede a lead and lose the game against Wales, hardly evidence they are fitter?
In general terms England did get through a lot of work and do have mobile players on the whole, but Im not convinced they are especially strong in that area.
You cant call it a failing of the coaches, its a failing of the saxons and age grade coaches if these kids are coming up less well developed than their Welsh counterparts. So thatd be ..of Stuart Lancaster then Doh Thats a jokey comment though, I dont mean this as an attack on them. Just if question if its one area England have the base they need in yet, or if they are as fit as the previous team. Its certainly an area Johnson was tough on.

I dont disagree with any of this really. Except to say that Wales didn't out last us in the match through fitness particularly and they are the exemplars so were lead to believe of supreme fitness in rugby players. Lawes (an England sub) was stripped of the ball by williams ( a welsh sub) who proceeded to score quite a freakish try.

It was England who were knocking at the door at the death i.e when Strettle's try was denied us.

p,s i did not say we were fitter than wales.

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Post by dragonbreath Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:31 pm

Triangulation wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Im sorry but Lancaster hasnt been in charge long enough to have worked significantly on the palyers fitnesss, and there are other blowhards in the side than Morgan which suggests to me he hasnt been over concerned about this when selecting players.
Now Morghan is a n extreme example, but he will be worked lon termm on of course. Farrell too tends to fade as the game goes on, and had to come off early for cramp. Tuilagi usually looks out of it by 70 minutes. We havent seen enough of Lawes to know if hes more than 60 minute player yet but I doubt it. On a positive not Cole is a flipping machine, immense work most notably against Ireland.
Corrct me if Im wrong but didnt England concede a lead and lose the game against Wales, hardly evidence they are fitter?
In general terms England did get through a lot of work and do have mobile players on the whole, but Im not convinced they are especially strong in that area.
You cant call it a failing of the coaches, its a failing of the saxons and age grade coaches if these kids are coming up less well developed than their Welsh counterparts. So thatd be ..of Stuart Lancaster then Doh Thats a jokey comment though, I dont mean this as an attack on them. Just if question if its one area England have the base they need in yet, or if they are as fit as the previous team. Its certainly an area Johnson was tough on.

I dont disagree with any of this really. Except to say that Wales didn't out last us in the match through fitness particularly and they are the exemplars so were lead to believe of supreme fitness in rugby players. Lawes (an England sub) was stripped of the ball by williams ( a welsh sub) who proceeded to score quite a freakish try.

It was England who were knocking at the door at the death i.e when Strettle's try was denied us.

p,s i did not say we were fitter than wales.

Fitness is not just demonstrated by the ability to keep running. It is the ability to think clearly and maintain reaction times and make good decisions when at the edges of endurance. If we just take the England and France games. Both could have scored at the death. Harinordiquay butchered an overlap, cutting back into the traffic with a man outside him, and Strettle as we all know butchered his opportunity aided by Halfpenny's speed of reaction to the situation in front of him and fitness to make the ground necessary to effect the assist in the tackle. Are we fitter when it matters? I would argue we are. If England choose to believe otherwise, suits me fine Very Happy

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Post by Triangulation Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:38 pm

dragonbreath wrote:
Triangulation wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Im sorry but Lancaster hasnt been in charge long enough to have worked significantly on the palyers fitnesss, and there are other blowhards in the side than Morgan which suggests to me he hasnt been over concerned about this when selecting players.
Now Morghan is a n extreme example, but he will be worked lon termm on of course. Farrell too tends to fade as the game goes on, and had to come off early for cramp. Tuilagi usually looks out of it by 70 minutes. We havent seen enough of Lawes to know if hes more than 60 minute player yet but I doubt it. On a positive not Cole is a flipping machine, immense work most notably against Ireland.
Corrct me if Im wrong but didnt England concede a lead and lose the game against Wales, hardly evidence they are fitter?
In general terms England did get through a lot of work and do have mobile players on the whole, but Im not convinced they are especially strong in that area.
You cant call it a failing of the coaches, its a failing of the saxons and age grade coaches if these kids are coming up less well developed than their Welsh counterparts. So thatd be ..of Stuart Lancaster then Doh Thats a jokey comment though, I dont mean this as an attack on them. Just if question if its one area England have the base they need in yet, or if they are as fit as the previous team. Its certainly an area Johnson was tough on.

I dont disagree with any of this really. Except to say that Wales didn't out last us in the match through fitness particularly and they are the exemplars so were lead to believe of supreme fitness in rugby players. Lawes (an England sub) was stripped of the ball by williams ( a welsh sub) who proceeded to score quite a freakish try.

It was England who were knocking at the door at the death i.e when Strettle's try was denied us.

p,s i did not say we were fitter than wales.

Fitness is not just demonstrated by the ability to keep running. It is the ability to think clearly and maintain reaction times and make good decisions when at the edges of endurance. If we just take the England and France games. Both could have scored at the death. Harinordiquay butchered an overlap, cutting back into the traffic with a man outside him, and Strettle as we all know butchered his opportunity aided by Halfpenny's speed of reaction to the situation in front of him and fitness to make the ground necessary to effect the assist in the tackle. Are we fitter when it matters? I would argue we are. If England choose to believe otherwise, suits me fine Very Happy

all true in principle but your try was scored by a substitute who ripped the ball off one of our substitutes and im not sure that your analysis of the strettle try is correct at all.

brown (another sub) butchered that try by failing to even half draw the cover defence before passing to strettle.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:55 pm

Sure the specific try incident at the end was sub on sub and possibly a fully fit sorry fully rested Croft wouldve just caught him but I bough that question uop because someone had cited england finish against wales as evidence of their fitness. It just seemed a bit bonkers to me.

In most games England have had a number of players shagged by the end and fading from the game if not already replaced. That is an area they can improve upon IMO. The England staff will be working hard, and its one good thing about the EPS ( for England). They can set their own fitness targets and regimes that may not fit with the goals of the clubs.

I do hope they have the sense to give Cole a break over the summer though. As much as they will need him in SA his workload has been monstorous since joining the senior side. Hes pretty much certain of going on the lions tour so wont get another break till after the next world cup.

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Post by eirebilly Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:05 pm

I would be very happy with what has happened in the England camp if i was English. They have come along very well so far.
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Post by ChequeredJersey Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:07 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Im sorry but Lancaster hasnt been in charge long enough to have worked significantly on the palyers fitnesss, and there are other blowhards in the side than Morgan which suggests to me he hasnt been over concerned about this when selecting players.
Now Morghan is a n extreme example, but he will be worked lon termm on of course. Farrell too tends to fade as the game goes on, and had to come off early for cramp. Tuilagi usually looks out of it by 70 minutes. We havent seen enough of Lawes to know if hes more than 60 minute player yet but I doubt it. On a positive not Cole is a flipping machine, immense work most notably against Ireland.
Corrct me if Im wrong but didnt England concede a lead and lose the game against Wales, hardly evidence they are fitter?
In general terms England did get through a lot of work and do have mobile players on the whole, but Im not convinced they are especially strong in that area.
You cant call it a failing of the coaches, its a failing of the saxons and age grade coaches if these kids are coming up less well developed than their Welsh counterparts. So thatd be ..of Stuart Lancaster then Doh Thats a jokey comment though, I dont mean this as an attack on them. Just if question if its one area England have the base they need in yet, or if they are as fit as the previous team. Its certainly an area Johnson was tough on.

You can get a group of players from a set level of fitness to their previous peak fitness in 2 weeks with intensive training, so this is just not true
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Post by eirebilly Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:57 pm

I thought that he got them to pretty decent fitness levels if i may be honest.

During the whole 6N, i can only remember Farrell going off for a cramp.
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