Wind back to 2003. What would have been the best regional format?

by 3rdGrandslamCame Sat 24 Mar - 8:48

I have no idea what the WRU and the regions intend to do to fix the current regional crisis. Hopefully central contracting will tie our star players to Wales and eventually the crows will increase because of it.

It is too late to change to format or go back to club rugby so everyone needs to pull together to make the best out of the current mess.

If we did have a magic time machine I would like to know what your ideas would be if we were able to start from scratch again.

THIS IS HOW I WOULD HAVE DONE THINGS:

1. I would have heavily marketed the regions in their specific areas at least 2 years before the launch. In 2003 the regions almost appeared out of nowhere without any of the public knowing. Schools would have been one of the most important places to do this. More billboards with players on them too there are nowhere near enough of these and the commercial departments are scratching their heads wondering why they can't get crowds. The only billboards I know of were the SA Brain beer ones for Wales.

2. Most of the infrastructure, roads, population, towns and rugby culture is in South Wales, so most of the regions would still have to be based in the southern half of the country, but I would want to see ALL of Wales involved. Just like Munster and Leinster do, play the smaller games at smaller grounds. For example, Ospreys v Blues (Liberty Stadium) or Ospreys v Connacht (The Gnoll).

START WITH FOUR REGIONS, not 5 like in 2003.
These regions should have no affiliation with the Welsh clubs other than which clubs feed which regions. New colours, new flag, new region etc etc..

REGIONS:

SOUTH WEST
SOUTH EAST
CENTRAL
NORTH

I have no idea what the names of them would be, but they can be anything as long as they don't represent one individual club.

FEEDERS:

SOUTH WEST: Llanelli, Swansea, Llandovery, Carmarthen & any club down to Haverfordwest or up to Aberystwyth
SOUTH EAST: Cardiff, Newport, Caerphilly, Pontypool and any club in Gwent, the Gwent valleys and up to Abergavenny
CENTRAL: Neath, Bridgend, Pontypridd, Merthyr, most of the valleys and Rhondda and up as far as Brecon
NORTH: Wrexham, Bangor, Llandudno, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl and anywhere from Rhayader north.

That is as good as you're going to get with the way the infrastructure in Wales is laid out. Most of the roads and people and big clubs in the south, but we should not neglect the north. It is a potential goldmine.

Whenever I go to Ospreys matches I begrudge the ticket prices, but I always buy a fair bit of food. Make the tickets cheaper and improve the food slightly but charge more for that instead or something? Just get people into the stadium. Wales did an experiment with £5 a ticket for football in the millennium stadium and it filled the stadium for a friendly!

YOUTH:

They are the key. If you want to build up a future fan base you need to target the current kids who are taking up or thinking of taking up rugby. I would give tickets free for under 12's and at least some sort of discount for a parent who has driven or taken their child to the match. Not all parents want to go to rugby matches and that is why a lot of kids may be missing out. Have to make it more attractive for the parents as well as the kids.

STADIUMS: This is what I would have done. New stadiums isn't always the best thing and I certainly wouldn't have one over 15,000. Sharing with a football club doesn't always seem to work either.

SOUTH WEST: As much as I love Neath, Swansea and Llanelli are larger and the stadiums would need to be here for transport and ease of access reasons. I would upgrade Stradey Park and St Helens to 15,000 and alternate the matches. After a few years maybe build a slightly larger new stadium near the M4 somewhere.

SOUTH EAST: Cardiff Arms Park is already a sufficient size. Play the smaller games at Rodney Parade and the bigger ones in Cardiff. If there are any games of less value like an LV cup with the youngsters playing then maybe play those in Caerphilly or Pontypool.

CENTRAL: Improve the Gnoll to at least 10,000 and Improve the Brewery field and Sardis Road. Neither Neath, Bridgend or Ponty are huge towns so I think three 10,000 seat grounds would be enough and just alternate.

NORTH: 15,000 seater stadium in Wrexham with a smaller 10,000 seater in Bangor.

by doctornickolas Sat 24 Mar - 10:30

To be fair the system you have proposed is exactly what David Moffatt suggested and pushed for. Anyone with an ounce of common sinse or no vested interest could see that.

However, then the clubs had their say. And it all went downhill from there.

The Same clubs where most of them had bone bust or had to be bailed out by the WRU for mismanagement. Llanelli, Swansea, Neath all fall in to this category and yet between them they control 2 of the 4 regions.

Regions should never have been in the clubs hands.

At the start I thought we should have gone for 3 regions and built that up and maybe add a 4th in time. My logic being at the time that Australia won 2 World Cups with 3 professional sides so why not.

At the time we had a 9 team league so if it was the case that the clubs had to be involved my thought was Llanelli, Swansea and Neath as West region covering the SA postcode. Cardiff, Ponty and Bridgend as a South region covering the CF postcode and Newport, Ebbw Vale and Pontypool as a East region covering the NP postcode with the WRU also having a share in each region.

What we have now is purely a a result of the clubs and their benefactors.

Sides like Llanelli seemed to forget very quickly that they only exist today because the WRU bailed them out on several occasions. yet they wanted to sue the WRU if they weren't given stand alone status. Now they are £5m in debt.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 10:35

but we should not neglect the north.

I was reading an article Portnoy did about the north of Wales and from what I saw from the posters on that thread, they were of the opinion that there isn't enough interest in rugby in the north.

Apparently it is quicker for them to just go east for an hour and play soccer.

by maestegmafia Sat 24 Mar - 11:06

biltongbek wrote:
but we should not neglect the north.

I was reading an article Portnoy did about the north of Wales and from what I saw from the posters on that thread, they were of the opinion that there isn't enough interest in rugby in the north.

Apparently it is quicker for them to just go east for an hour and play soccer.

No that's not true at all...! And on welsh rugby matters and the geography of Wales Portnoy knows little and googled less.

There is huge support for rugby in the north, just a less dense population...!

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:08

Portnoy wasn't the one saying that, he was questioning it.

RD and a few others said that.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:11

Re: A Welsh northen region is an impractical pipe dream : Another left-field Portnoy post:
by Kingshu Yesterday at 5:48 pm

.even at that would North Wales be comparable to Connacht? no big areas of high population density, a few clubs etc etc.

Connacht though are growing and crowds are increasing, don't know if you'd get a sell out for a u20 Ireland game there. Even Ravenhill doesn't sell out for the wolfhounds.

The problem would be can the WRU fund 5 regions, doubt it. means teh south only having 3 regions, that would mean a merger between two of Scarlets, Dragons Ospreys or Cardiff.

Likley be Dragons and Cardiff, but would Cardiff blues give up the Cardiff identity they have fought so hard to keep, without going through the courts? Or Llanalli Merge with Ospreys without going to the courts?

WRU don't have the power to do in.

IMO the best solution would be to merge the Cardiff Blues and Dragons, and bring Ponty and other clubs in the new region on board, Create a new identy not attached to any clubs, etc etc. ( I suggest Red Kites, a symbol of Welsh nature)

Left over players from this region would go to RCG1404 and a new region is formed in the north.

If this was done I could see 3 proper regions and Scarlets (superclub/region 606 can decide on that)

by Guest Sat 24 Mar - 11:12

I never said there wasn't interest in the North? Headscratch

I even pointed out they were selling out games up there for the U20's!

I said, they couldn't build a motorway through the middle of Wales because of the mountains.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:14

Re: A Welsh northen region is an impractical pipe dream : Another left-field Portnoy post:
by AlynDavies Yesterday at 9:52 pm

.One of the main reasons why North Wales rugby has never really evolved is because South Wales teams have never wanted to travel there.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:15

rugbydreamer wrote:I never said there wasn't interest in the North?

I even pointed out they were selling out games up there for the U20's!

I said, they couldn't build a motorway through the middle of Wales because of the mountains.

Yeah, sorry RD, I got my thouhts crossed there, it wasn't you.

I went back and reread it. Sorry

by Guest Sat 24 Mar - 11:18

dim probs Biltong

I think we all want a region in North Wales now, it is badly needed if we are all being honest, and the new development they have up at Parc yr Eirias is a brilliant starting point. RGC1404 is going to be playing in the Welsh Premiership soon, and if it's given enough time to become a proper region, and not just one that came out of the blue like our current regions (bar the Scarlets) then I think they can develop a much more sustainable fan base, it will truly be something for the fans to invest in and get behind.

Do it slowly and do it properly, and I think a region in North Wales could work really, really well.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:20

What I don't understand is there is 4 regions at the moment, correct?

So do they add a region or change the make up of the regions and keep it to 4 regions?

by maestegmafia Sat 24 Mar - 11:21

Bil, aft the post you quoted there are several all continuing to knock the OP. even the post you have offered as an example is pro north region.

It presses the debate that is more pertinent which is valley rugby.

You are probably not aware but Newport Dragons are only 60 miles away from Scarlets. The two other regions are in between. As are 2/3rds of the population.

by maestegmafia Sat 24 Mar - 11:23

biltongbek wrote:What I don't understand is there is 4 regions at the moment, correct?

So do they add a region or change the make up of the regions and keep it to 4 regions?

They don't need to do anything to the regions.

People are more annoyed by performance than anything else. Most of the other stuff following are excuses.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:36

maestegmafia wrote:
biltongbek wrote:What I don't understand is there is 4 regions at the moment, correct?

So do they add a region or change the make up of the regions and keep it to 4 regions?

They don't need to do anything to the regions.

People are more annoyed by performance than anything else. Most of the other stuff following are excuses.

Are you talking about their performances in the HC?

I also read that a good number of the top Welsh players are leaving to play in France and English clubs?

by maestegmafia Sat 24 Mar - 11:46

biltongbek wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
biltongbek wrote:What I don't understand is there is 4 regions at the moment, correct?

So do they add a region or change the make up of the regions and keep it to 4 regions?

They don't need to do anything to the regions.

People are more annoyed by performance than anything else. Most of the other stuff following are excuses.

Are you talking about their performances in the HC?

I also read that a good number of the top Welsh players are leaving to play in France and English clubs?

No I'm talking about the existence of the regions, performances are relevent but they are circumstantially related to those regions reinvention as feeders for the national team and as successful teams in competitions like the lv=, the HEC and the Rabbo 12.

We expect the regions to be doing better, to be as successful as Ulster, Munster and Leinster have been. But, eluding to your second point, we are losing players to wealthier clubs who pay massive wages in France and England, and we do not anymore spend huge amounts on non welsh qualified players to bolster the regions as the Irish provinces and the French and English clubs do. Central contracting is the logical conclusion.

The reasons are mainly financial, but are also positive steps to improve the welsh play strength and depth.

The WRU have employed international accounting firm Price Waterhouse Coopers to investigate making regional rugby more financially successful and efficient, report to be concluded at the end of the season.

These are very positive steps, we are seeing great new players and improving our player base in all positions. Improved results will improve crowds, and if the PWC report shows ways to make regional rugby more financially efficient we will be on to a real winner.

In my mind we are making some very positive steps.

by Guest Sat 24 Mar - 11:48

Not that many top players have actually left Biltong, tis juts the media becoming all hysterical.

Some like Charteris and Phillips have left, but then you've got the likes of Adam Jones and Jon Davies staying.

Fringe players are leaving but then I don't see that as a problem, it frees up places for younger guys to come through.

by maestegmafia Sat 24 Mar - 11:49

rugbydreamer wrote:Not that many top players have actually left Biltong, tis juts the media becoming all hysterical.

Some like Charteris and Phillips have left, but then you've got the likes of Adam Jones and Jon Davies staying.

Fringe players are leaving but then I don't see that as a problem, it frees up places for younger guys to come through.

The same as happens in SA and New Zealand, neither are bad models to follow.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:50

So it boils down to the public expecting the regions to do better, that's it really.

by **Biltong** Sat 24 Mar - 11:55

maestegmafia wrote:
rugbydreamer wrote:Not that many top players have actually left Biltong, tis juts the media becoming all hysterical.

Some like Charteris and Phillips have left, but then you've got the likes of Adam Jones and Jon Davies staying.

Fringe players are leaving but then I don't see that as a problem, it frees up places for younger guys to come through.

The same as happens in SA and New Zealand, neither are bad models to follow.

I fully agree with that. It is fine to have clubs, even have them in a professional league. but in my opinion it is preferable to have your top players in 4 or 5 top regional/provincial teams/franchises and build the depth of those squads to as close as possible international level.

It will always provide you with a whole handfull of quality players per position.

I have always maintained the club system in England and France is their downfall on the international arena.

When Wales or Ireland have teams qualify for the HC then those teams are representative of top players.

In the French and Englisg club scene it isn't their best players, but their best clubs.

Big difference when some English clubs have not qualified and each of them has a handful or more top players not competing in the top European comp.

by Guest Sat 24 Mar - 11:55

There's that, but there's also match day experience, the O's and Blues have pretty rubbish ones due to being in too big a stadium and the quality of rugby on offer. Also there's the issue of promoting themselves around the whole region, but I think they are all getting better at that.

by maestegmafia Sat 24 Mar - 11:57

biltongbek wrote:So it boils down to the public expecting the regions to do better, that's it really.

I think so.

And the public are right, the Ospreys for example have had the majority of the welsh squad for the last few years, plus players like Marty Holah, Jerry Collins, Justin Marshall and Tommy Bowe and have not made a semi final of the HEC.

Last night they beat rabbo pro 12 leaders Leinster in Dublin with only two Non Welsh Qualified players, the rest are players who progressed through the Ospreys academies.

I really believe that in a season or two we will see sides like the Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues looking far more dominant in Europe, with predominantly Welsh players, maybe one or two foreigners.when that happens the fans will be praising the regions and all this talk of the inequalities, poor decisions and under achievement will disappear.

by Shifty Sat 24 Mar - 19:23

rugbydreamer wrote:I said, they couldn't build a motorway through the middle of Wales because of the mountains.

That's wrong, there are a few roads the A483 takes you up about half way, then you have to left for West North Wales or straight up for North East Wales. They have talked about widening the A roads into a Motorway but there is not much point because the roads are so long and so few vehicles are on them. It's a bit like the A465 across the valleys, you can drive for quite a long time and not come across anyone, Seven sisters to Aberdare can be really quiet.

The roads are there but they're obviously not in a straight line because of the mountains.

by Shifty Sat 24 Mar - 19:57

I think the best way to sumarise this debate would be to look at the facts.

North Wales makes up two thirds of the country, were basically talking about Ceredigion and Radnorshire and upwards. However the population is very thin, making up about only a third of the Welsh population.

Rugby has been played there for as long as rugby has been down South, the problem is south Wales teams have complained so much about travelling the 4 hours or so to get there.

Another major problem is the lack of clubs, most major towns in the area have a team, but the little villages and towns around them don't. In South Wales you can drive down Margam road for example which takes about 7 minutes. at the start of the road you have Tata Steel Port Talbot, half way down you have Taibach, a few seconds after that you have Aberavon, not to mention about 6 other teams in that small town alone!

In North Wales you have one major town and no rugby team until the next major town so there are so few teams. We have 3 North Wales leagues comprising of about 32 teams, while we have 340+ in the South.

Of the North Wales teams ALL of them are basically a field with goal posts in, no stadia of ANY description. I've looked on Google maps at most of them look very poor. In fact if you look at this article you will see Denbigh RFC boasting about the fact they have the best facilities in north Wales with their new stand!

http://itvwalesblog.com/2010/09/21/denbigh-rfc-gets-the-best-facilities-of-any-rugby-union-team-in-north-wales/

I'm sorry not to be mean but that shed with the people in is the best North Wales club rugby has to offer?

Have a look at the stadiums of clubs in the South Wales like Abertillery and Caerphilly, who play in division 3 East.

Abertillery
http://www.cwmtillery.com/walks/silent_valley.htm

Caerphilly
http://images2.pitchero.com/clubs/9788/031011221346.jpg

The WRU, the Welsh assembly and several charities have recognised that something needs to be put in north Wales, so Park Erias was built.

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/matchdaytv/Index/index/id/9839
^ Video linked above.

Putting something in Wrexham was a waste of time because Wrexham RFC has been pushed up the leagues and struggled before. The town already has a football team and a rugby league team, so the WRU were sensible and built the team in the second largest town Colwyn Bay, which is far more centralised in North Wales, basically on the coast smack bang in the middle.

The final and major problem you have is Wrexham and Colwyn Bay are basically smaller or the same size towns as Pontypridd, Neath, Bridgend, Professional rugby has been proven to be unsustainable there, however with Colwyn Bay being so central maybe people may be inclined to travel from places like Ruthin, Rhyl, Llandudno, Bangor and Caernarfon to watch them.

by Cymroglan Sat 24 Mar - 21:30

Denbigh RFC gets the best facilities of any rugby union team in North Wales

No they don't thats just your normal chairman BS Very Happy

My local club for instance has facilities on par if not better than clubs like Merthyr RFC http://www.llangefnirfc.com/
What people need to realize is that the WRU have neglected the North since day one and it took a outsider WG to boot the WRU up the ass before they did something up here.
Everything we have achieved up here has been done through hard work of local club members with very little or no support from the WRU.

by Shifty Sat 24 Mar - 23:07

I'm pretty sure I looked at Llangefni on Google and their just a field in a long road of houses?

You don't have a seated stand or terracing do you? It's just a railing around a field?

by Cymroglan Sat 24 Mar - 23:11

There is seating in the club house but one side of the field is sheltered.
Google maps show a shed on my property that I had removed in 2005

by Cardiff Dave Tue 27 Mar - 22:16

"Wind back to 2003. What would have been the best regional format?"

We've never had proper regions and we couldn't afford them either which is why we did what we did.
Cardiff and Llanelli were and still are standalone clubs don't forget, although some crazy posters on here think differently.
The quicker this regional craziness idea is dumped the better it is for all.
Pretending doesn't work i'm afraid.

by Casartelli Tue 27 Mar - 22:29

Totally agree with Cardiff Dave.

Do it one way (clubs) or the other (regions). Having clubs pretending to be regions makes us look silly - and undermines the fantastic achievements of the test team.

by Morgannwg Tue 27 Mar - 23:54

The best Regional format would have been to have 4 Regions, not two with two stand-alone clubs. Blues need to become a real Region, not much more the other 3 can do I think. I want the North to have a top flight team, but that'll be a while. Maybe they can do that one right from the beginning by not naming it Wrexham or Rhyl and rotating the games around the North a bit; perhaps between Colwyn Bay (which looked fantastic on the TV) and Wrexham.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 Mar - 0:09

Morgannwg wrote:The best Regional format would have been to have 4 Regions, not two with two stand-alone clubs. Blues need to become a real Region, not much more the other 3 can do I think. I want the North to have a top flight team, but that'll be a while. Maybe they can do that one right from the beginning by not naming it Wrexham or Rhyl and rotating the games around the North a bit; perhaps between Colwyn Bay (which looked fantastic on the TV) and Wrexham.

The best regional format would have been, not to pretend we had pretend regions in the first place. But we did.
Now we are where we are.
Nearly 10 years later.
Enjoy.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 Mar - 0:13

Morgannwg wrote:The best Regional format would have been to have 4 Regions, not two with two stand-alone clubs. Blues need to become a real Region, not much more the other 3 can do I think. I want the North to have a top flight team, but that'll be a while. Maybe they can do that one right from the beginning by not naming it Wrexham or Rhyl and rotating the games around the North a bit; perhaps between Colwyn Bay (which looked fantastic on the TV) and Wrexham.

What is a "real region"?

by Morgannwg Wed 28 Mar - 0:49

Cardiff Dave wrote:
The best regional format would have been, not to pretend we had pretend regions in the first place. But we did.
Now we are where we are.
Nearly 10 years later.
Enjoy.

Where are we 10 years later, another Grand Slam you say? I'll take that!

thumbsup

by Morgannwg Wed 28 Mar - 0:53

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:The best Regional format would have been to have 4 Regions, not two with two stand-alone clubs. Blues need to become a real Region, not much more the other 3 can do I think. I want the North to have a top flight team, but that'll be a while. Maybe they can do that one right from the beginning by not naming it Wrexham or Rhyl and rotating the games around the North a bit; perhaps between Colwyn Bay (which looked fantastic on the TV) and Wrexham.

What is a "real region"?

A team that consists of and contributes back into the Region it is meant to represent. So with the Blues that would be Cardiff, Glamorgan, the Rhonnda valleys right? Basically, an improved superclub (which is what it is now, a superclub); because techincally we have never had the geography for the Provincial model which it was designed upon. Unless we base it on the old principalities that made up Wales which was a previous suggestion of mine.

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