Attendances

I head mention during the Quins v Wasps game that the Sarries v Quins game next weekend at Wembley has already sold over 70 thousand tickets. Just thought I'd post how impressed I am with that. Its great to see and can only be good for the AP and english rugby going forward.

wow that's fantastic, maybe the blues should try moving a game against the Ospreys to the Millenium stadium?

Not trying to WUM, but how come Sarries can't get many fans at their home ground? Aren't they getting around 5,000 or something at Vickerage Road???

Griff wrote:Not trying to WUM, but how come Sarries can't get many fans at their home ground? Aren't they getting around 5,000 or something at Vickerage Road???

No it's a bit more than that Griff that is closer to a Dragons home crowd , I think the move to Copthall will increase the Sarries home support though.

I'm going and I'm a Wasps supporter. Apart from the 2 clubs supporters their will be plenty like me who attend because it's a good product, well marketed and good value.
McFly (?) are performing which is a further attraction for others and tickets start at a fiver.

Bottom line is it works. Would it in Wales? Blues v Ospreys at the MS - I don't think so.

Big Trev, no need to include the snide remarks about It working in Wales. I'm genuinely interested in the sarries development. It's great that they can sell out Twickers/wembley, outstanding really, but why can't they attract 10% of that at home? You're right, Dragons crowds are around 6,000 which is awful too.

Does it suggest that Sarries are in the wrong part of London? I.e. support comes out when they move to a different part. Or is it the sense of occasion in the national stadium that drives up numbers? Or, like the fan interviewed at the last one, just there to see the x factor contestants and not the rugby. Either way, it's working and it's great for the game.

Doe Sarries get much of the gate receipts? If so, maybe they're playing so many games at wembley/Twickers because they make far more than they can at home ???

You're right though about wales. I don't think it would get as much support, but then that just describes the difference in the way club rugby is supported compared to England. It's big in England and not so big in Wales so crowds would be lower. Similarly, I don't think England would fill Twickers with 70,000 fans to watch a game on the big screen being played on the other side of the world like Wales did v France in the world cup. Again, that's just the difference in the rugby focus in the 2 nations. However, Cardiff Blues got something like 45-50,000 in the MS for the Leicester HC game a few years back so maybe a derby might attract a lot of support?

AlynDavies wrote:wow that's fantastic, maybe the blues should try moving a game against the Ospreys to the Millenium stadium?

Don't think it would work at all Alyn. Especially now or next season anyway

From what I can gather talking to Sarries fans, some of them just really dislike where the team is currently based. Many expect there to be bigger crowds at Copthall.

The thing about Copthall though, is that the capacity is going to be 10,000 with no wiggle room to add more. (I'm talking about public opinion in the area, rather than land at the site). Don't get me wrong, I like what Sarries are doing there. They seem to be really community orientated with the provision for the local athletics club. But to me, Sarries are going to have to continue to move their bigger games around the capital.

A lot of it is down to success. After winning 10 trophies in as many years the last 3-4 years without a sniff of one has seen Wasps' crowds dwindle to around the same as Sarries.

I still see the same London based diehards at the European away games though. Move us back to West London and we would get bigger crowds. It takes me two hours to get to Wycombe, but I still go.

Sarries will be nearer to their traditional fan base at Copthall, so they should see gates improve.

The regional divvying up in Wales effectively saw bitter rivals paired up. Not surprising that some of the traditionalists haven't embraced their local region.

I agree about Wasps. There is a huge market in West London which Wasps simply left. Madness in pure busness terms. They must go back to West London, or in my opinion will likely end up like Newcastle, hanging on by the skin of their teeth. And worse, with no money to spend because the market is so small around their current home.

Not sure about Sarries. Seems to me a lot of one step forwards, one step back. Perhaps they feel they have an agreement to play all their big matches at Wembly? Certainly no Heineken Cup matches at their new home.

Big Trev, no need to include the snide remarks about It working in Wales. I'm genuinely interested in the sarries development. It's great that they can sell out Twickers/wembley, outstanding really, but why can't they attract 10% of that at home? You're right, Dragons crowds are around 6,000 which is awful too.

Apologies Griff but in general if a post starts 'This isn't a WUM...' or something similar then invariably it is!

The question is still the same though, with or without that line included. If my team, the Dragons, managed to get 70,000 regularly at the Millenium Stadium but only 6,000 at home then I'd wonder why. I think it's a valid question. Shame you don't seem willing to discuss. Isn't that why we're here???

Vicarage Road is a complete dump. Access to it is terrible, parking impossible etc. This is why Sarries are moving away from there and back to North London.

Matches at Wembley/Twickenham are firstly cheap. They attract a lot of casual fans (40k watched the S15 match at Twickenham last year I think) and they become a day out.

Sarries have not attracted the fans they would have hoped and in recent years the attendances at VR have been on the slide. Guess it can't help that they only play attacking rugby away from home

What kind of money are you looking at for a ticket to a ground, say, like Copthall?

Duuno what Sarries plan on charging at the new place. At VR Ticket prices for an Adult seem to start at £20 and rise to £40 for teh good seats (Assuming we Ignore Platinum and Platinum plus - £55 and £65!!!)

http://www.saracens.com/tickets/

By comparison Full Price adult tickets at Tigers are more expensive

£21 (standing) to £45 Gold (not many Gold seats though - silver costs £32 and is more comparable with teh £40 tickets at VR)

They are still reasonable prices really.

But when you compare £10 for an adult at wembley or £40 at Watford.

There is a big difference then, i will grant you that but it still seems like a decent price.

How much do you guys pay for a ticket to an Aviva game, and how much for a heineken Cup game?

At Tigers there is no difference in price between AP and HC.

How much is it though, I am trying to compare prices in Europe to ours

Griff as others have said - Watford is not a popular destination for Saracens fans.

Most of the marketing efforts are not focussed on attracting people to Vicarage Road. With Wembley and hopefully the new stadium on the horizon, you could understand why.

The situation at Saracens is they have a core support of about 5-6,000 who go to most VR games,they do have numerous casual fans though and it's not surprising to see 20k+ Sarries fans turning up to big games.

Hound of Harrow like Saracens, Wasps don't have their own rugby stadium. To really build up a proper fanbase you need a proper home. The likes of Waps,London Irish and Sarries will never really grow in core support with true homes.

Saracens do have poor attendances but I am sure that their brand awareness is growing all the time.Probably a more well known club these days than a fair few others. Brand awareness helps hugely with sponsorship.

London Tiger that's wrong! We got a try bonus at VR vs Treviso! Try bonus points for us are still a precious commodity much cherished.


Saracens and Dragons only have attendances in common though.

biltongbek wrote:How much is it though, I am trying to compare prices in Europe to ours

Prices for Tigers were given above - from £21-£45. Good tickets around £28

These are ticket prices in SA, at Newlands stadium in Capetown.
• Category 1 – Grand Stand Level R120 - 10 GBP

• Category 2 - Grand Stand Level R100 - 8 GBP

• Category 3 - Railway Stand Level R100 - 8 GBP

Category 4 - Grand Stand Ramp Seating R80 - 6.60 GBP

Category 6 - Danie Craven Standing R50 - 4 GBP

Quite a bit cheaper than what you guys are paying.

biltongbek wrote:These are ticket prices in SA, at Newlands stadium in Capetown.
• Category 1 – Grand Stand Level R120 - 10 GBP

• Category 2 - Grand Stand Level R100 - 8 GBP

• Category 3 - Railway Stand Level R100 - 8 GBP

Category 4 - Grand Stand Ramp Seating R80 - 6.60 GBP

Category 6 - Danie Craven Standing R50 - 4 GBP

Quite a bit cheaper than what you guys are paying.

Ticket prices are about the same in England as in Wales. I am convinced if the prices at the Liberty match those at Newlands we would have twice the crowds.

It certainly does help, Stormers has an average of 35 000 spectators per match.

biltongbek wrote:These are ticket prices in SA, at Newlands stadium in Capetown.
• Category 1 – Grand Stand Level R120 - 10 GBP

• Category 2 - Grand Stand Level R100 - 8 GBP

• Category 3 - Railway Stand Level R100 - 8 GBP

Category 4 - Grand Stand Ramp Seating R80 - 6.60 GBP

Category 6 - Danie Craven Standing R50 - 4 GBP

Quite a bit cheaper than what you guys are paying.

Having had a quick look about the internet the average attendance of the Stormers is nearly 40,000 people. The highest in England is Leicester Tigers with around 20,000 (still a fantastically high figure for England, next highest is Saints with about 13,000), with most clubs getting between 4000 and 8000. If the English clubs charged the prices you quoted above, they'd go broke. You could argue if they made it really cheap, a lot more people would attend games, but I'm really not sure that is the case. Rugby is a relatively small spectator (almost niche) sport in parts of England and it will always suffer in comparison to Football in those terms.

Well you have to consider the average South African that watches rugby doesn't earn the same amount of money as the europeans do, but then life is cheaper here than over there.

I supppose in a sense it is all relative. I was reading in the UK you pay nearly 8 pounds for a pack of cigarettes, here in SA it is about 2 pounds 50.

Fuel here is just under a pound per litre.

Ok time to pack up the bags... im moving to South Africa

gowales wrote:Ok time to pack up the bags... im moving to South Africa

We also have sunshine. And lots of it. The winters in Gauteng must be the best and most pleasant winter in the world, and alomst no clouds or rain for the duration.

What's the average salary in SA though? Generally prices of things are reflective of the wages earned by the population.

Tigers do drop prices for games sometimes, for the LV Cup game vs Newcastle I think the tickets were available via a promotional site for as little as £15 for two. Generally they don't need to reduce ticket prices as the average attendance is over 20k and the stadium can only hold something like 24k. For the big games it's always a sell out.

I would hazard a guess that the average middle class family earns about 3000 GBP per month.

Ospreys are charging between 20-28GBP for the match against Treviso on their website, you could probably get them cheaper some other way. But they then wonder why no one goes to watch them... I wouldn't pay 10 to watch Treviso

biltongbek wrote:

gowales wrote:Ok time to pack up the bags... im moving to South Africa

We also have sunshine. And lots of it. The winters in Gauteng must be the best and most pleasant winter in the world, and alomst no clouds or rain for the duration.

Yes, but what would we be able to moan about then?

Cumbrian wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

gowales wrote:Ok time to pack up the bags... im moving to South Africa

We also have sunshine. And lots of it. The winters in Gauteng must be the best and most pleasant winter in the world, and alomst no clouds or rain for the duration.

Yes, but what would we be able to moan about then?

Well there is all the other stuff, like politics interfering with sport, traffic, taxis, the price of tabasco sauce etc.

I'm not sold. We can do most of that here.

Cumbrian wrote:I'm not sold. We can do most of that here.

The proof is in the pudding mate!

What's the beef with the taxis Bilt?

Well here in jo'burg there are roughly 6 million people using these Toyota 14 seater minivans for transport.

These drivers get paid by the owners of these taxis by performance, so they adhere to very few laws on the road, overload, stop anywhere they want at any time, pull in front of you, make u-turns etc.

The worst is when they are on the higways they will make up as much speed as they can, overtake you from left or right hand lane whilst you are adhering to speed limits, only to lose all their grunt on the uphills, cutting you therefor off, so that you have to slow down because of it.

Spoiler:

gowales wrote:Ospreys are charging between 20-28GBP for the match against Treviso on their website, you could probably get them cheaper some other way. But they then wonder why no one goes to watch them... I wouldn't pay 10 to watch Treviso

Treviso are a decent team and a home game against them is not a guaranteed win, but I agree it is not a game that inspires the casual fan. Tickets should be under ten pounds if the ospreys wish to have a gate over five thousand.

The business model that I imagine the clubs are working with is a set price ticket for the season. I have rarely seen the tickets for ospreys games at the liberty vary.

All well and good if like tigers you have 20,000 plus fans on a weekly basis. Not if you have a core of about five to six thousand plus between two and five thousand casual supporters.

Thing is that the regions are well supported outside the gate receipts, people in Wales do have an infinity, they do care about what is happening. So there is a potential market for more fans to attend.

But at £20 a pop I can see why they don't. Most of the ospreys fans where I live can't afford twenty quid anymore than two or three times a season.

biltongbek wrote:Well here in jo'burg there are roughly 6 million people using these Toyota 14 seater minivans for transport.

These drivers get paid by the owners of these taxis by performance, so they adhere to very few laws on the road, overload, stop anywhere they want at any time, pull in front of you, make u-turns etc.

The worst is when they are on the higways they will make up as much speed as they can, overtake you from left or right hand lane whilst you are adhering to speed limits, only to lose all their grunt on the uphills, cutting you therefor off, so that you have to slow down because of it.

Spoiler:

Reminds me of the same sort of thing in Egypt. Absolute nightmare!