SPOILER ALERTS - COMMENTARY/RESULTS - Molina vs Kirkland/Morales vs Garcia

First topic message reminder :

Hey ladies and gents,

Dont know if anyone is still up, but im watching the bill i have put in the title.

Just wondering on peoples thoughts on whats happened so far?

Its round 4 of Molina vs Kirkland and Molina is an absolute stinker.

Constantly grabbing Kirkland EVERY 2 seconds. Throws a punch, misses, then grabs.

Messy work here.[b]

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Alvarez isn't chinny, since he's been at 154lbs fully he's taken some goodf shots without any problems, with the way people are talking about Cotto's little brother rocking him you'd think he was on his last legs and nearly out of it, he was a bit hurt and his legs trembled but he wasn't MAJORLY hurt.

Because you get rocked once at a weight he isn't comfortable at doesn't mean he is chinny Az, try watching a fight for once. Could almost guarentee you haven't even seen Alvarez/Cotto.

I dont think he boiled down seing as that fight was a cereer high weight. His next few fights were at the same weight. He was coming up from WW. I have my doubts about his chin.

Doesn't really matter if he is still weight drained. He was a 19 year old growing into his body still, not a fully mature man, he still isn't and he quite possibly should be fighting higher than 154 seeing as how much he's struggling to make weight. Against a decent puncher like Cotto you get caught and he can hurt you, he's been stunned once in his career. Doesn't mean he's chinny.

AlexHuckerby wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Alvarez isn't chinny, since he's been at 154lbs fully he's taken some goodf shots without any problems, with the way people are talking about Cotto's little brother rocking him you'd think he was on his last legs and nearly out of it, he was a bit hurt and his legs trembled but he wasn't MAJORLY hurt.

Because you get rocked once at a weight he isn't comfortable at doesn't mean he is chinny Az, try watching a fight for once. Could almost guarentee you haven't even seen Alvarez/Cotto.

I dont think he boiled down seing as that fight was a cereer high weight. His next few fights were at the same weight. He was coming up from WW. I have my doubts about his chin.

Doesn't really matter if he is still weight drained. He was a 19 year old growing into his body still, not a fully mature man, he still isn't and he quite possibly should be fighting higher than 154 seeing as how much he's struggling to make weight. Against a decent puncher like Cotto you get caught and he can hurt you, he's been stunned once in his career. Doesn't mean he's chinny.

If you're good enough, you're old enough. His age doesn't mean anything. Fact is he was at his career highest against a LW. I recall Bob Foster saying that his best punches bounced off Frazier's chin. That's the difference between a lower weight bid puncher and a non chinny bigger guy.

Saul should not be rocked by a LW. Ergo he's chinny. If Kirkland half clips him, I reckon he'll go.

Wouldn't call Rhodes or Cintron joke opponents.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Wouldn't call Rhodes or Cintron joke opponents.

Cintron I most certainly would. Rhodes for me is a euro level fighter. Granted he deserved a belt tilt, but he wasn't expected to win. It was a gimme for Saul.

Khan was knocked down by Gomez at lightweight but has yet to be knocked down at light welterweight against far bigger punchers, weight makes a huge difference to punch resistance.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Wouldn't call Rhodes or Cintron joke opponents.

Cintron I most certainly would. Rhodes for me is a euro level fighter. Granted he deserved a belt tilt, but he wasn't expected to win. It was a gimme for Saul.

The only world class opponents in the division are Cotto and Mayweather of which neither fight was ever going to happen until now.

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Alvarez isn't chinny, since he's been at 154lbs fully he's taken some goodf shots without any problems, with the way people are talking about Cotto's little brother rocking him you'd think he was on his last legs and nearly out of it, he was a bit hurt and his legs trembled but he wasn't MAJORLY hurt.

Because you get rocked once at a weight he isn't comfortable at doesn't mean he is chinny Az, try watching a fight for once. Could almost guarentee you haven't even seen Alvarez/Cotto.

I dont think he boiled down seing as that fight was a cereer high weight. His next few fights were at the same weight. He was coming up from WW. I have my doubts about his chin.

Doesn't really matter if he is still weight drained. He was a 19 year old growing into his body still, not a fully mature man, he still isn't and he quite possibly should be fighting higher than 154 seeing as how much he's struggling to make weight. Against a decent puncher like Cotto you get caught and he can hurt you, he's been stunned once in his career. Doesn't mean he's chinny.

If you're good enough, you're old enough. His age doesn't mean anything. Fact is he was at his career highest against a LW. I recall Bob Foster saying that his best punches bounced off Frazier's chin. That's the difference between a lower weight bid puncher and a non chinny bigger guy.

Saul should not be rocked by a LW. Ergo he's chinny. If Kirkland half clips him, I reckon he'll go.

That doesn't even make sense... His age DOES mean something, in terms of taking a punch and growing into your body, being comfortable at particular weights, it means an awful lot...

Also, Jose Cotto made his name at LW, but he is not a fat LW, he is a more than capable WW and has been for years, but most probably again, you've never even watched him fight.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Khan was knocked down by Gomez at lightweight but has yet to be knocked down at light welterweight against far bigger punchers, weight makes a huge difference to punch resistance.

Khan is somewhat chinny. Not as chinny as many make out though. He fought at a weight he shouldn't have been whereas Saul fiught at a career high.

But you're missing the point Az, IT IS STILL A WEIGHT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FIGHTING AT! My goodness.

Give up Alex.

His age is irrelevant. He was fighting at 150 against a fat LW. Getting hit can be put down to experience, but the reaction cannot be put down to age.

I saw Cotto's fight with Paulie where he rocked him also. Good puncher and Paulie has a decent chin. But Paulie is a LWW not a JMW.

AlexHuckerby wrote:But you're missing the point Az, IT IS STILL A WEIGHT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FIGHTING AT! My goodness.

For crying out loud. 150 is within the JMW limit. I imagined you knew the weight divisions.

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:But you're missing the point Az, IT IS STILL A WEIGHT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FIGHTING AT! My goodness.

For crying out loud. 150 is within the JMW limit. I imagined you knew the weight divisions.

Your point being?

145 is still in the WW division, what was your belief over Miguel Cotto and Pac again...? Whats the difference...? Hm...

I'm not going to bother commenting on you anymore Az, the forum would be much better without you, you were fun at first, but in complete honesty, you're a total WUM, worse than the likes of Waingro.

I give up. Saul came in at his career highest yet he was weight drained. He fought slightly lighter in his next fight, but was weight drained for the Cotto fight. Sure.

No worries.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:But you're missing the point Az, IT IS STILL A WEIGHT HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN FIGHTING AT! My goodness.

For crying out loud. 150 is within the JMW limit. I imagined you knew the weight divisions.

Your point being?

He wasn't drained.

That is your opinion but no offence Az you need to base opinions on a little more than boxrec.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:That is your opinion but no offence Az you need to base opinions on a little more than boxrec.

And your opinion is based on what? Looking at him?

Look at the facts. He came in heavy. He fought at 149.5 in his next fight. 150.5 after that until Hatton where he came in at 151. After that he came in at 153. I wouldn't call that a drained fighter especially as many dont see Miguel as being drained when he fought Paq for coming in lower than his usual weight.

Yes by watching him I came to the conclusion that he looked drained at the lower weight, he's looked in better condition since fighting at 154lbs.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Yes by watching him I came to the conclusion that he looked drained at the lower weight, he's looked in better condition since fighting at 154lbs.

Even considering he came in at a career high?

McLellan and Watson came in at career highs but were still drained at the higher weight, boxrec can be a good tool but only when used properly.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:McLellan and Watson came in at career highs but were still drained at the higher weight, boxrec can be a good tool but only when used properly.

I wouldn't say either were drained at the weight, especially watson. He made the weight easily without the usual struggles he had at MW where he ate 3 graped for brekkie, 2 tablespoons of rice with steamed fish or chicken and then a grapefruit or avacado for supper.

Training for the Eubank fight his diet was far better. I'm sure Peter Hamlyn would verify that weight draining was not the cause of his incident.

I honestly can't believe wha I'm hearing,

Canelo is 21, has been in 39 fights, has been a pro since he was 15, no amateur experience and has never hit the floor and has been I nreoyble in his emigre career a whole total of, ONCE when he was 19 and is now chinny.

He HAS been caught by Rhodes, cintron, hatton, Gomez and hasn't been in any bother. Although he doesn't get hit often, if he was chinny one of those (except hatton) would have had him in trouble.

You are seriously undermining cotto. True he isn't his brother but he has 24 knockouts in 32 wins. He won his last 4 wins by knockout in the welterweight division before he fought Saul. He recently had malignaggi (who has a great chin) in a bit of bother. Look at the footage of the fight, Saul got caught by a huge left hook that he was moving into and stayed up. He managed to take another 4 or 5 really solid shots by cotto while standing up and hitting cotto with a couple of his own

Brandon Rios has been in more trouble than this kid has (has some early career knocmdowns) but no-one has called him chinny

Az the more you comment on here, the more certain I am that you have never watched a boxing match before, but only read about them on Boxrec etc.....oh sorry you watched a YouTube clip of Wonjongkam and decided he is the 5th best fighter on the planet

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:I honestly can't believe wha I'm hearing,

Canelo is 21, has been in 39 fights, has been a pro since he was 15, no amateur experience and has never hit the floor and has been I nreoyble in his emigre career a whole total of, ONCE when he was 19 and is now chinny.

He HAS been caught by Rhodes, cintron, hatton, Gomez and hasn't been in any bother. Although he doesn't get hit often, if he was chinny one of those (except hatton) would have had him in trouble.

You are seriously undermining cotto. True he isn't his brother but he has 24 knockouts in 32 wins. He won his last 4 wins by knockout in the welterweight division before he fought Saul. He recently had malignaggi (who has a great chin) in a bit of bother. Look at the footage of the fight, Saul got caught by a huge left hook that he was moving into and stayed up. He managed to take another 4 or 5 really solid shots by cotto while standing up and hitting cotto with a couple of his own

Brandon Rios has been in more trouble than this kid has (has some early career knocmdowns) but no-one has called him chinny

Cotto is a LW who can still make that division given his size and physique. He shouldn't be rocking a sturdy chinned huge WW who was fighting at a career high weight. That shouldn't happen. Plus is was not a huge left hook. That he was rocking lends credinility to him being drianed, but that can be discounted by him coming in at his gighest ever weight. For me that leaves doubts around his chin.

Hope I'm wrong because the kid is exciting and good to watch as he comes to fight not play around hugging his opponent. He'll have a good fight with Kirkland who I believe is being targetted for him.

God, you infuriates me. Az, he isn't chinny at all, you say huge things, then when you get proved wrong you've said something in such a big way you can't really retract it, then instead of just admitting you're wrong you argue until everybody else is bored and can't be bothered anymore.

azania wrote:
Cotto is a LW who can still make that division given his size and physique. He shouldn't be rocking a sturdy chinned huge WW who was fighting at a career high weight. That shouldn't happen. Plus is was not a huge left hook. That he was rocking lends credinility to him being drianed, but that can be discounted by him coming in at his gighest ever weight. For me that leaves doubts around his chin.

Hope I'm wrong because the kid is exciting and good to watch as he comes to fight not play around hugging his opponent. He'll have a good fight with Kirkland who I believe is being targetted for him.

Pacquiao is a SFW but no-one questions him when he knocks down Mosley and cotto. No matter who you are, a puncher or not, you can always be knocked out. Cottos power punch is the left hook. You may have seen saul's fight but you obviously haven't seen much of cotto.

And it was a huge left hook. Both Saul and cotto threw hooks, Alvarez was wild and cotto hit him on the button when he was square on. When two fighters throw the same punch, they walk onto tere opponents shots. Prime example is Sergio Martinez vs williams. Both threw overhand lefts but Williams missed and his momentum drew him onto the shot and we all know what happened there.

Whether he was weight drained or not, it doesn't make him chinny by getting stumbled by a big shot, it just means he's no marvin hagler. He wasn't even out of it, he managed to hit cotto with a couple of decent shots, hardly a fighter on his last legs. He is a lot bigger than back then and more mature.

Valuev got stumbled by Haye in their fight Az, does that make him chinny, and Haye was so much smaller too.

Alex keep calm, it's fun watching someone be ridiculous. Savour the moment my friend. These theories are hilarious.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:

azania wrote:
Cotto is a LW who can still make that division given his size and physique. He shouldn't be rocking a sturdy chinned huge WW who was fighting at a career high weight. That shouldn't happen. Plus is was not a huge left hook. That he was rocking lends credinility to him being drianed, but that can be discounted by him coming in at his gighest ever weight. For me that leaves doubts around his chin.

Hope I'm wrong because the kid is exciting and good to watch as he comes to fight not play around hugging his opponent. He'll have a good fight with Kirkland who I believe is being targetted for him.

Pacquiao is a SFW but no-one questions him when he knocks down Mosley and cotto. No matter who you are, a puncher or not, you can always be knocked out. Cottos power punch is the left hook. You may have seen saul's fight but you obviously haven't seen much of cotto.

And it was a huge left hook. Both Saul and cotto threw hooks, Alvarez was wild and cotto hit him on the button when he was square on. When two fighters throw the same punch, they walk onto tere opponents shots. Prime example is Sergio Martinez vs williams. Both threw overhand lefts but Williams missed and his momentum drew him onto the shot and we all know what happened there.

Whether he was weight drained or not, it doesn't make him chinny by getting stumbled by a big shot, it just means he's no marvin hagler. He wasn't even out of it, he managed to hit cotto with a couple of decent shots, hardly a fighter on his last legs. He is a lot bigger than back then and more mature.

I dont believe the punch was that hard. It wasn't even the hardest hook thrown (not landed) during the fight. I dont believe a JMW should be hurt by a punch like that. Plus its from a LW (fighting outside his division) against a SMW (fighting within his division). Shouldn't be happening. I reckon he has a dodgy chin. Makes for an exciting fighter.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Valuev got stumbled by Haye in their fight Az, does that make him chinny, and Haye was so much smaller too.

Alex keep calm, it's fun watching someone be ridiculous. Savour the moment my friend. These theories are hilarious.

Last I knew SSM and Paq were fighting at WW. Did Paq come in at 130lbs? Do me a favour dee-boy. Try not to be smart. It doesn't suit you.

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Valuev got stumbled by Haye in their fight Az, does that make him chinny, and Haye was so much smaller too.

Alex keep calm, it's fun watching someone be ridiculous. Savour the moment my friend. These theories are hilarious.

Last I knew SSM and Paq were fighting at WW. Did Paq come in at 130lbs? Do me a favour dee-boy. Try not to be smart. It doesn't suit you.

What difference is there between a former flyweight hurting a Welterweight and a former lightweight hurting a light middleweight?

The former flyweight was a bonafide welter.

The fat LW is still a LW.

He's a fully fledged Welterweight actually Az but well done you've outdone my knowledge yet again... oh wait, silly me.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He's a fully fledged Welterweight actually Az but well done you've outdone my knowledge yet again... oh wait, silly me.

Dont be so hard on yourself.

I do wonder how you can be so wrong so often though, how do you do it?

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Valuev got stumbled by Haye in their fight Az, does that make him chinny, and Haye was so much smaller too.

Alex keep calm, it's fun watching someone be ridiculous. Savour the moment my friend. These theories are hilarious.

Last I knew SSM and Paq were fighting at WW. Did Paq come in at 130lbs? Do me a favour dee-boy. Try not to be smart. It doesn't suit you.

Huh?? I was referring to you ridiculous statement that Canelo is chinny just because he got shook by a great left hook by a "fat lightweight" as you put it.

So Valuev was chinny as well as he got shook up by Haye who was a career cruiser.

Leonard got wobbled a few times by Duran who was a career lightweight, I guess Leonard was chinny too.

I won't ask you to not act smart because I would hazard a guess that someone of your calibre to possess Al Pacino type acting skills to even get close to "a bit clever" ;-)

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I do wonder how you can be so wrong so often though, how do you do it?

Inability to accept he's wrong - but it comes from a lot of faith in his own ability and knowledge - which is to be respected, fair play.

Pacquiao being a real WW but Cotto being "still a LW" doesn't make all that much sense actually - you do know that right Az? So you don't have to boxrec it - you'd know that Cotto hasn't fought below 140 since 2007 - which means he's been over the lightweight limit for longer than Pacquiao. So why is it that Pac is a fully fledged welter - but Cotto is still a LW?

oxring wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I do wonder how you can be so wrong so often though, how do you do it?

Inability to accept he's wrong - but it comes from a lot of faith in his own ability and knowledge - which is to be respected, fair play.

Pacquiao being a real WW but Cotto being "still a LW" doesn't make all that much sense actually - you do know that right Az? So you don't have to boxrec it - you'd know that Cotto hasn't fought below 140 since 2007 - which means he's been over the lightweight limit for longer than Pacquiao. So why is it that Pac is a fully fledged welter - but Cotto is still a LW?

We're not referring to the Cotto who is fighting Floyd. His older brother.

Good job that Oxy was referring to Jose Miguel Cotto then isn't it.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Valuev got stumbled by Haye in their fight Az, does that make him chinny, and Haye was so much smaller too.

Alex keep calm, it's fun watching someone be ridiculous. Savour the moment my friend. These theories are hilarious.

Last I knew SSM and Paq were fighting at WW. Did Paq come in at 130lbs? Do me a favour dee-boy. Try not to be smart. It doesn't suit you.

Huh?? I was referring to you ridiculous statement that Canelo is chinny just because he got shook by a great left hook by a "fat lightweight" as you put it.

So Valuev was chinny as well as he got shook up by Haye who was a career cruiser.

Leonard got wobbled a few times by Duran who was a career lightweight, I guess Leonard was chinny too.

I won't ask you to not act smart because I would hazard a guess that someone of your calibre to possess Al Pacino type acting skills to even get close to "a bit clever" ;-)

Paq is not a fat WW. He moved up in weight with all the benefits of science known to man (and according to his detractors - known only to a few men). Likewise JMM bulked up in his last fight with Paq very differently to when he did against Floyd. The difference in physique was telling. Now look at Cotto and tell me he was ripped at the weight he fought Saul at. Be honest with yourself. The guy could easily shed 7lbs and be more effective. He wasn't in peak condition. Saul looked huge in comparison.

The difference with Haye/Valuev is that getting him by a 220 man regardless of size is very different from getting hit by a 144 fighter who ate his way to that weight.

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I do wonder how you can be so wrong so often though, how do you do it?

Inability to accept he's wrong - but it comes from a lot of faith in his own ability and knowledge - which is to be respected, fair play.

Pacquiao being a real WW but Cotto being "still a LW" doesn't make all that much sense actually - you do know that right Az? So you don't have to boxrec it - you'd know that Cotto hasn't fought below 140 since 2007 - which means he's been over the lightweight limit for longer than Pacquiao. So why is it that Pac is a fully fledged welter - but Cotto is still a LW?

We're not referring to the Cotto who is fighting Floyd. His older brother.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Good job that Oxy was referring to Jose Miguel Cotto then isn't it.

Well Ghosty...This is a bit awkward...

Yes Az - it is Jose Miguel Cotto who hasn't fought below 140 since 2007.

So - Jose Cotto has been over the LW limit for longer than Pacman - yet Pacman is a fully fledged welter whilst JCotto is still a LW?

I'm looking forward to watching you work your way out of this one Az. Or you could shock me and admit that you're wrong ref J Cotto.

What is wrong with you people. You love to argue. I said on page 1 that I believe Saul is chinny because he got hit and wobbled by a fat LW. Ordinarily had that happened to other fighters, there would be total agreement here. Haye gets called chinny because he got decked by a fat SMW. Guess what, he is chinny. A big CW should not be getting decked by a blown up SMW.

Saul should not be on queer street by a fat LW. That signifies a chinny boxer.

Oxy, the fight was in 2009. He was carrying love handles into that fight. He shows lack of world level ambition hence the love handles. He was fat. Likewise Morales was carrying love handles yesterday. I cant but like the bloke for the excitement he brought, but if he wants to carry on fighting it should be no higher than LW. Yesterday he was fat. Harsh but true.

Anyway.....carry on. You goons are so argumentative.

So basically you know you've been proved wrong so feel the need to insult again?

azania wrote:What is wrong with you people. You love to argue. I said on page 1 that I believe Saul is chinny because he got hit and wobbled by a fat LW. Ordinarily had that happened to other fighters, there would be total agreement here. Haye gets called chinny because he got decked by a fat SMW. Guess what, he is chinny. A big CW should not be getting decked by a blown up SMW.

Saul should not be on queer street by a fat LW. That signifies a chinny boxer.

Oxy, the fight was in 2009. He was carrying love handles into that fight. He shows lack of world level ambition hence the love handles. He was fat. Likewise Morales was carrying love handles yesterday. I cant but like the bloke for the excitement he brought, but if he wants to carry on fighting it should be no higher than LW. Yesterday he was fat. Harsh but true.

Anyway.....carry on. You goons are so argumentative.

Drop the obnoxious crap and explain why someone who hasn't fought below 140 since 2007 is less legitimate than someone who only ventured north of 140 in 2009.

Simple demand. Explain or retract. Lose the cowpat

Imperial Ghosty wrote:So basically you know you've been proved wrong so feel the need to insult again?

Insults? For crying out loud, no need to be so sensitive. If I were to insult anyone, I'd use more insulting word than "goon".

Still an insult.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:What is wrong with you people. You love to argue. I said on page 1 that I believe Saul is chinny because he got hit and wobbled by a fat LW. Ordinarily had that happened to other fighters, there would be total agreement here. Haye gets called chinny because he got decked by a fat SMW. Guess what, he is chinny. A big CW should not be getting decked by a blown up SMW.

Saul should not be on queer street by a fat LW. That signifies a chinny boxer.

Oxy, the fight was in 2009. He was carrying love handles into that fight. He shows lack of world level ambition hence the love handles. He was fat. Likewise Morales was carrying love handles yesterday. I cant but like the bloke for the excitement he brought, but if he wants to carry on fighting it should be no higher than LW. Yesterday he was fat. Harsh but true.

Anyway.....carry on. You goons are so argumentative.

Drop the obnoxious crap and explain why someone who hasn't fought below 140 since 2007 is less legitimate than someone who only ventured north of 140 in 2009.

Simple demand. Explain or retract. Lose the cowpat

I explained it already hombre. I called him a fat LW because he can (I believe) make the LW limit with relative ease given the excess fat he was carrying in that fight (and in the Paulie fight also). Many journeymen fight at weights which are often over their preferred weight. It marks them out as journeymen because they wont train down to their preferred weight. Not being critical of them as they play a vital role in the sport.

Paq can train, bulk up etc because he is a marquee name and can take the time, employ the right people to get him fully prepared at the new weight. Someone like Cotto hasn't got that luxury.

Do you honestly believe Erik couldn't get below 142 for yesterday's fight? He probably didn't want to go thru the strict diets required. He hit Garcia flush many times without so much as a dent. Ditto wen he fought Maidana (and I'd call Mardana relatively chinny given that he's been bounced a few times).

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Still an insult.

oooooh!

I'll apologise for any offense caused.

Think as a two time world title challenger Cotto was a little bit more than a journeyman and yes when I think of Maidana I instantly think he's chinny.

Ali too was chinny because he was decked a couple of times.