Club - Country - Lions priorites

What's your preference?

Mine is Country Club(Europe) Club(League) Lions but I can see why players would put the Lions at the pinnacle.

Country - Lion - Club(E) - Club(L)

I would prefer Wales to beat NZ than the Lions to - so Country first

Country- Regions (Europe) -Lions- Regions ( League)

For me, clearly:
Lions, Country, Club
For club, I equate Europe and the Premeirship. Want to win both. Two separate competitions that I want my club to win.

For me its club and then country. I have no interest at all in the outdated concept that is the Lions

Country then club. Lions are good for the spectacle but they damn welsh rugby - as since the year 2001 we've fared badly after every single tour. 2001 because Henry took so many Welsh players, leaving our team depleted the following season. 2005 because half the players didn't come back in one piece - and indeed some were never the same again. 2009 took Roberts from us for a while - with another couple of injuries thrown in (although, to be fair - it did mark the moment Adam Jones became recognised as a world class destructive scrummaging tighthead).

I laughed when Ronan Ogara came on in the second test of 2009. Partly because he was there and partly because I was amazed that one person could single handedly cost an entire series in about 5 minutes. Quite impressive actually.

Whos your club Oxy?

Neath and the Ospreys. All my life - and even though the O's are irritating the hell out of me at the moment I'm still as loyal as ever. Actually hopeful now that Johnson has gone.

Didn't we have this convo over on the boxing boards - you're a Ponty fan right?

I cant understand how anyone could hate the Lions. So it impacts on the international team - we are all in the same boat. Thats like saying you dont like your country as it disrupts your club preparation.

I'd probably put Ireland and Ulster in Europe on a par- that is to say, the system must allow both to be successful and not one at the expense of the other.

Sometimes Ulster should have to take a short term bullet in developing a player to help Ireland, but if it comes down to interfering with our chances in Europe it's wrong. A Six Nations title wouldn't mean more to me than a Heineken Cup, maybe even not as much.

After that Ulster in the Pro 12, then the Lions. The Lions is great, great for rugby. But it's not a team you have the same emotional attachment to year in year out. A series of wonderful exhibition matches and team bonding in the best traditions of rugby. The thing I like best about the Lions is seeing which Ulster players are given the honour of selection and supporting them to the hilt.

oxring wrote:Neath and the Ospreys. All my life - and even though the O's are irritating the hell out of me at the moment I'm still as loyal as ever. Actually hopeful now that Johnson has gone.

Didn't we have this convo over on the boxing boards - you're a Ponty fan right?

Yeah Ponty fan. Neath are ok I dont mind them infact Ponty and Neath have always got on quite well. Dont dislike the Os as at least they have treid to be a region but not a fan

red_stag wrote:I cant understand how anyone could hate the Lions

I dont hate the Lions. I just dont see the point in them anymore. Years ago when the game was amateur and travel wasnt as easy it made sense to take the best players from the 4 nations of the Isles on a tour for many reasons. Now I dont see the point. 4 nations ganging up on one just to beat them when in reality they should be aspiring to beat the southern hemisphere themselves individually. Plus there is no real national pride at stake. Its also annoying when everyone starts banging on about what the starting lineup will be for about 6 months prior to the tour and by the time the first test is around the selection has been totally dominated by injuries picked up in pointless provincial matches. The fact that they have only won one test series in the last 20 years says it all. Give me a proper Wales v England, New Zealand v Australia, Ireland v Argentina etc. test match any day of the week

For me its Club, province, Country. The Lions is a great thing but only happens once every four years so is not as important as the rest until its actually happening then and only then does it take precedence

In my view the Lions are a celebration of rugby. It is a once every four year phenominan that doesn't happen in any other sport.

It should be celebrated, in a sense it is like the three Musketeers, only there is four nations. One for all an all for one, every four years.

It should be the one time in the calendar where all the home nations set their differences aside and celebrate their collective.

I would love it if the three nations being visited by the Lions could reciprocate with a similar type tour once every four years.

Lions (SA,NZ,AUS) in that order, Country , Club (Domestic) , Club (Europe)

biltongbek wrote:In my view the Lions are a celebration of rugby. It is a once every four year phenominan that doesn't happen in any other sport.

It should be celebrated, in a sense it is like the three Musketeers, only there is four nations. One for all an all for one, every four years.

It should be the one time in the calendar where all the home nations set their differences aside and celebrate their collective.

I would love it if the three nations being visited by the Lions could reciprocate with a similar type tour once every four years.

Do SA/Oz/ABs unite in solidarity against the Lions irrespective of their opponents?

In terms of the players it will certainly be Lions over Country... to be a lion means you are the best out of all 4 countries... not just your own. Its the ultimate honour... ask the greats such as JPR, Edwards, Guscott, McBride, Irving etc and they'd all say the lions.. I'd be very confident of that.

It’s the challenge of enemies coming together, attempting to build a team with little time and leave as brothers.

The lions isn't just a touring team that comprises the best of 4 nations so that they stand a chance of beating SH teams.... prior to Ireland independence it was the British Isles team and Wales, Scotland & England & NI are still part of the UK... we are one country... and thus far this is out of choice not necessity.

Come the Olympics do we just cheer on our athletes from our own respected parts of the UK… I don’t think so.

Its different for some, I fully accept that and as a expat Scot some may say that its my only chance of cheering on a side with much chance of winning a game… but when I was growing up in the 80s & early 90s when our team was up there with the very best it was still and always would be the lions over all.

If the 3N decided to get together and tour it wouldn’t be the same… why? Ok they would be great players coming together sure… but they’re completely different countries albeit in their mutual contempt for mother Britain

Portnoy wrote:

biltongbek wrote:In my view the Lions are a celebration of rugby. It is a once every four year phenominan that doesn't happen in any other sport.

It should be celebrated, in a sense it is like the three Musketeers, only there is four nations. One for all an all for one, every four years.

It should be the one time in the calendar where all the home nations set their differences aside and celebrate their collective.

I would love it if the three nations being visited by the Lions could reciprocate with a similar type tour once every four years.

Do SA/Oz/ABs unite in solidarity against the Lions irrespective of their opponents?

I would like to see it, yes.

fa0019 wrote:If the 3N decided to get together and tour it wouldn’t be the same… why? Ok they would be great players coming together sure… but they’re completely different countries albeit in their mutual contempt for mother Britain

Of course it will be the same, as the commonwealth (The Lions) we will just be the collective of the colonies.

As long as the team was called 'the colonies' I would have no problem with its establishment!

As a boer that must still rattle your cage though and probably why many bok fans would support even a Martian team over ENG or the Lions.

I would prefer something more "adventurous"

Pioneers
Pirates
Explorers


Beating the English has more to do with pulverising an opponent, nothing more.

I think for home nations rugby to function effectively it should be Lions, Country and then province/club.

The Lions is only once every 4 years, like the RWC so if it disrupts things then so be it. It is a special tradition and one of the pinacles of a players career.

If I'm totally honest I'd far rather see Ireland beat NZ than the Lions beat Australia but the Lions is a special time when the best of the best of Ireland and Britain come together and an exciting time for fans and players here.

For what it's worth, and counter to players' ambitions, I'd be perfectly happy for Wales and their foreign coach to represent the Lions.

I don't want any English dirt-trackers thank you.

COUNTRY

Europe

League

Lions


I was going to explain why...but I've decided not to. Lions is a surprising emotionally sensitive subject - both for those of us who love the concept of it and those of us who are less taken by it. Both sides can be passionate about reason for and against. So it's best to just leave 'reasons for' methinks.

Fly, it is not like you to leave things up without an explanation?

biltongbek wrote:Fly, it is not like you to leave things up without an explanation?

Even I know when it might be best to pass on an explanation, biltong. It might be too raw. I respect those who regard the concept of the Lions with more passion than I perhaps do. But you're right, who needs a list of names without reasons? I might take that post down now.

Come on fly this is a rugby forum, you should be able to air your opinion if its on topic. If other people choose to take offence, feic it.

It's Club first for me and even though I am a Heineken Cup addict, I think winning your domestic league has to be the principal aim at the start of any season.
I find it's getting harder to become motivated by the International Team. Maybe it will change when the coaching team changes I don't know!

The Lions are a welcome distraction on a four yearly basis but its difficult to be very passionate about a team chosen from four separate nations. I enjoy the spectacle of the rugby and I hope to be in Australia next summer. Maybe just being there will change my mind.

roddersm wrote:Come on fly this is a rugby forum, you should be able to air your opinion if its on topic. If other people choose to take offence, feic it.

Agreed, an opinion if put diplomatically is just that, an opinion, those who choose to take offence, then need to look within themselves if they object.

roddersm wrote:Come on fly this is a rugby forum, you should be able to air your opinion if its on topic. If other people choose to take offence, feic it.

Nah. I get in too much hot soup, Rodders. Besides, this site needs a few quiet happy weeks after the fire and brimstone ones we've had in the last few months!!! All Hail Country. All Hail the Lions!

SecretFly wrote:

roddersm wrote:Come on fly this is a rugby forum, you should be able to air your opinion if its on topic. If other people choose to take offence, feic it.

Nah. I get in too much hot soup, Rodders. Besides, this site needs a few quiet happy weeks after the fire and brimstone ones we've had in the last few months!!! All Hail Country. All Hail the Lions!

Wimp.

this feels very much like when you go on a date with a sure thing. you expect action and yet nothing happens after all that anticipation.

Bollix fly, this is the business end of the season! We need fire and brimstone man! Get those hand grenades out!

I agree rodders.

The Lions is a bit of a gong for those selected, but little to get excited about.

A super-Lions tour which included say the 6Ns v 4Ns on a five-match tour may be more interesting.

A bit like the Ryder Cup.

Portnoy wrote:Mine is Country Club(Europe) Club(League) Lions but I can see why players would put the Lions at the pinnacle.

I think there is a difference between priority and pinnacle. I probably enjoy Lions the most; to my mind it encompasses all the great things about rugby philosophy, and it's completely understandable why it is so revered by the players. But, I think club should be the priority; it was there before any other form and it's the bedrock of rugby culture at every level.

I would say my most enjoyment comes in the following order:

- Lions
- Rugby World Cup
- Heineken Cup
- Autumn Internationals
- 6 Nations
- Rabo Direct Pro 12

A lot of it isn't logical. Its merely personal choice and the things that got me hooked on rugby.

The 2000 Munster team and 2001 Lions team got me into rugby as a 12 year old. I really only started taking an interest in Ireland in 2001 Autumn Internationals. By that stage I knew what I liked. By the time I was an avid Ireland fan, we had the 2003 RWC which I loved and then Munster's HEC affair for the next few years had me enthralled and distracted me from Ireland.

Country, club (l), club (e) then Lions. I don't dislike the Lions, i very much enjoy the spectacle. I just happen to prefer the others more!

Portnoy wrote:

biltongbek wrote:In my view the Lions are a celebration of rugby. It is a once every four year phenominan that doesn't happen in any other sport.

It should be celebrated, in a sense it is like the three Musketeers, only there is four nations. One for all an all for one, every four years.

It should be the one time in the calendar where all the home nations set their differences aside and celebrate their collective.

I would love it if the three nations being visited by the Lions could reciprocate with a similar type tour once every four years.

Do SA/Oz/ABs unite in solidarity against the Lions irrespective of their opponents?

We live on the same hemisphere - you live on the same island or two(pretty much) so no not always

nganboy wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

biltongbek wrote:In my view the Lions are a celebration of rugby. It is a once every four year phenominan that doesn't happen in any other sport.

It should be celebrated, in a sense it is like the three Musketeers, only there is four nations. One for all an all for one, every four years.

It should be the one time in the calendar where all the home nations set their differences aside and celebrate their collective.

I would love it if the three nations being visited by the Lions could reciprocate with a similar type tour once every four years.

Do SA/Oz/ABs unite in solidarity against the Lions irrespective of their opponents?

We live on the same hemisphere - you live on the same island or two(pretty much) so no not always

And it would be highly inaccurate to observe The Lions and therefore assume All of us here on the two islands always support each other when playing against SH opposition.

It's a nice advertisement for those who like to generalise but it isn't true.

Two close islands but we all individually have our favourite sides - and many of us might choose a SH side as our 2nd favourite next to our own. The Lions can promote a false picture of where loyalties lie on these two islands.

fly I accept that.

But for me I want the SH teams to dominate. we don't have the money the NH has, it is my last vestage against the almighty dollar completely ruining our sport. so if the "poorer" system still dominates it confirms to me that money is not yet the victor.

It might change, but for now it will suffice.

Are Ireland, wales and Scotland richer and better resourced than Australia, NZ and SA?

roddersm wrote:Are Ireland, wales and Scotland richer and better resourced than Australia, NZ and SA?

Their rugby is subsidised by being part of the european competitions and HC brings in enough money for them to attract top players frm the SH. so yes.

Bek,

I am a major major Lions fan.

However I dont especially want Wales, England or Scotland to beat the Southern teams.

I consider my second favourite team to be NZ and I know one Welsh admin who considers France her second favourite team.

I see I am the only person out of 35 people who voted who has my preferences.

red_stag wrote:Bek,

I am a major major Lions fan.

However I dont especially want Wales, England or Scotland to beat the Southern teams.

I consider my second favourite team to be NZ and I know one Welsh admin who considers France her second favourite team.

Stag you gave me a promise beginning of the year that Sa will be your considered second favourite team.

As far as the SH thing for me is concerned, New Zealand has always been the mythical foe. When I was growing up the stories told, the analogies made next to a school rugby field, the reprimands from school coaches always had the challenge or connotation of the all blacks as motivating factor.

Hence there is a respect for their rugby that is deep seated and has turned into not only respect for their game and even though they are our biggest challenge it is also with great affinity that I support their team.

Without wanting to sound arrogant or disrespectful, becuase of our history over the last 100 years, I expect us to beat all other nations, in fact I demand it, and are extremely disappointed and disgusted if we lose.

I am trying to alter my expectation of that as many factors have influenced our performance and results over the professional era, but it hurts to look at what is happening where other teams are starting to believe they can beat us. for me it is a great mental paradigm shift to accept that reality.

Done:

Lions, Country, Club(Europe), Club(League).

As a fan these days I wouldn't support the Lions above Ireland but from a playing perspective I still think playing for the Lions is the highest honor possible and winning a Lions series is up there with winning a RWC.

Politics aside I find it a massive honor to see Irish players selected for the Lions and it fills me with real pride that Ireland have provided the last two captains. Its also exciting to see how the best home nations players combine, like BOD and Wilkonson in 2001.

So many great players have made their names with the Lions and to join the likes of McBride, Edwards, Johnson etc is pretty special.

biltongbek wrote:Stag you gave me a promise beginning of the year that Sa will be your considered second favourite team.

I will embrace SA as my 2nd favourite I said if certain conditions came about which I will have to judge in 3 Nations.

red_stag wrote:I see I am the only person out of 35 people who voted who has my preferences.

And I, (for once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), am on the majority. I don't vote often on the differing polls here but I don't think I've remotely been on a majority before whenever I have.
I might run for election next time at this rate. The Anti-Ming the Merciless Party

I'm actually quite surprised at that result too - I always felt Lions was much more important in the grand scheme of things for the majority of us.

red_stag wrote:I see I am the only person out of 35 people who voted who has my preferences.

Before you got interested in rugby, was there any tradition of interest in your family and close peers with rugby?

I've always sort of understood that you were one of the new tradition of enthusiasts. Post-amateur and on the cusp of a rising tide of success.

As you know I'm from a different generation and carry a lot of baggage regarding the game's spirit and traditions. A living dinosaur. I know it and really I don't care. I'll just plod on.

red_stag wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Stag you gave me a promise beginning of the year that Sa will be your considered second favourite team.

I will embrace SA as my 2nd favourite I said if certain conditions came about which I will have to judge in 3 Nations.

I would then suggest you get that email off to Heyneke Meyer pronto.