Lions, The 6N and a Wardrobe.

I often find it amazing that the Home Nations fans, so bitterly entrenched in their own camps for the 6N, can come together in a spirit of togetherness for the June or Autumn series and wish each other the best of luck against the southern foe.

This tends to be not the case for the big three in the SH when they go on tour or host teams from the NH. I, for one, respect both Australia and SA, but certainly wouldn´t openly support them against the likes of Ireland or Scotland. Indeed, I´d be quite happy if NZ were the only ones to beat the NH teams. There´s respect but there´s certainly no love lost between the teams.

But then the fractious debate seems to manifest itself into a foamed-mouth frenzy once again when the Lions come round every four years. This resentment can stir from the coach right through to the number of players represented by each nation. My question to you NH HN posters is where does this spirit of fraternity against the SH go to whenever the Lions are in question? Maybe there is a genuine desire for them to beat whichever SH team but it sure doesn't appear like a gesture of hand-holding unity that appears to occur during the autumn series?

As a neutral looking from the outside, are these views correct and if so (or not), why is that the case?
Confused and bewildered.

Have you ever heard of underdogs?

simples.

Well not that simple because let´s face it, the Lions are underdogs as well.

Yet it seems to divide the different nations. Scotland, the terminally under-represented believe a Scotland tour down south would be more productive and depending on how the other teams fare in the 6N, the others tend to bicker over how many players really they should have in the Lions Squad.

Kia - I'll keep this simple - the answer is a very personal one - Some feel an allegiance to the British concept and others don't. The rivalry is historical and supersedes rugby traditions. As for the British concept for example, well Wales are not even represented on the British flag so so much for inclusiveness there. Like I said it really depends on peoples political and social allegiances and then it becomes a very complex matter. A Kiwi leading the "British" Lions that includes Saffers among other foreign players is also something of conjecture. I am a welsh fan first and foremost and my second fav team has always been New Zealand - I have no reason to change

i find it simple you don't.

hence you are confused and bewildered.

and, why does it matter to you?

RubyGuby wrote:Kia - I'll keep this simple - the answer is a very personal one - Some feel an allegiance to the British and Irish concept and others don't. The rivalry is historical and supersedes rugby traditions. As for the British and Irish concept for example, well Wales are not even represented on the British flag so so much for inclusiveness there. Like I said it really depends on peoples political and social allegiances and then it becomes a very complex matter. A Kiwi leading the "British and Irish" Lions that includes Saffers among other foreign players is also something of conjecture. I am a welsh fan first and foremost and my second fav team has always been New Zealand - I have no reason to change

Fixed that for you

I think theres a lot of opinions based solely on these boards! Don't take much said on here as fact.

Go on a tour, watch a test and watch the supporters, there is no malice between supporters, they are definately united, but what makes it all the more beautifull is that you can have a bit of banter with both your fans and the opposition fans alike.

Unless you've experienced a tour, knowledge of the lions is restricted, and you have missed out. I am hoping to be on my 2nd tour next year, already booked my flights and have arranged to stay in the sister in laws place in Melbourne...

I don't consider myself British but I still support the Lions. I'd hope the concept stays on even if Scotland, Wales and NI break away from the UK and I'd still support them. It's nice to put the rivalries aside and it's something special to see regular foes, those you strain and struggle against every year, become allies for a short while.

Then again, supporting the Lions as a team is made difficult when some idiot disregards that concept and reduces things back to their original tribalisms, like what we had on the old 606 for the last tour with half the board spending the whole tour bickering about why their nation should contribute the majority of players.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:Kia - I'll keep this simple - the answer is a very personal one - Some feel an allegiance to the British and Irish concept and others don't. The rivalry is historical and supersedes rugby traditions. As for the British and Irish concept for example, well Wales are not even represented on the British flag so so much for inclusiveness there. Like I said it really depends on peoples political and social allegiances and then it becomes a very complex matter. A Kiwi leading the "British and Irish" Lions that includes Saffers among other foreign players is also something of conjecture. I am a welsh fan first and foremost and my second fav team has always been New Zealand - I have no reason to change

Fixed that for you

Cheers Shoulder

Maybe the answer is more integration as Bluesman sais, when everyone is physically together the toxic element dissipates. I would guess that even those who areue on here would probably enjoy a pint and a discussion about rugby if they met in a pub. Even Hersh perhaps - Yeah Hersh and Gower discussing the 6 Nations over a pint = harmony - Let's go for it.

6 Nations morphing into Lions every four years is great from my point of view. There isn't really that much of a difference in the thought process of support. When 6 nations starts, we all want to beat each other.
Next, we all want everyone else to beat England. When home nations play SH sides we will support our neighbours against them and England get to feel the warm glow of fraternity.
When the Lions come around of course there will be bickering and a "my brother is bigger than yours" flavour to selection debate. Having said that, most supporters I know from all nations will get behind the team once the action kicks off.
Ask yourself this, could NZ, Aus and SA produce an equivelent? We have thousands of years of history of kicking the crap out of each other, making alliances breaking promises. As an Irish man, seeing all of the fantastic players who have represented the Lions over the years ahead of the best of the other countries gives me a lot of pride and I can't help but get excited about it each time it rolls around.

Very well put Submachine!

RubyGuby wrote:well Wales are not even represented on the British flag so so much for inclusiveness there.

A Japanese website ran a competition to fix that a number of years back. My personal favourite was this one (and if you substitute the pink hair for a cowboy hat it would be very apt for the rugby crowd):

Spoiler:

gelodge wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:well Wales are not even represented on the British flag so so much for inclusiveness there.

A Japanese website ran a competition to fix that a number of years back. My personal favourite was this one (and if you substitute the pink hair for a cowboy hat it would be very apt for the rugby crowd):

Spoiler:

Ok, so St. George was a girl and he didn't kill the Dragon but tamed it? Japanese Manga hostory to the rescue.

Easy for me to say but I would have thought that purely for rugby, sport and enjoyment reasons the Lions could be supported on that basis. All for one, one for all kind of thing- at least a truce for this tour where rugby is the unifying factor, not allegiance to country or foe.

As someones already said, its a personal choice to let politics get in the way of the enjoyment of the sport. Can't argue with that.

Agree to an extent with the brighter outlook on what sport should be but we also have to admit that sport, the very nature of the beast, is about the concept of 'them' and 'us' - and another name for that is politics.

You might be able to evade the more high profile examples of politics - race, creed, war and peace, work and health - but 'them' and 'us' is an integral part of the enjoyment package of sport, not alien to it.

Almost as many reasons for fraternity and diversity of opinion as there are posters on here. I'm welsh and British. I'm not the sort of Welshman that gives a damn about nationalism, Welsh politics, devolution or independence. In fact I hate the idea that nationalism might split the union. My mother was born in Dublin, I live part of the time in England, my wife is half English and my daughter is Welsh but attends an English school.

Anyway, I'm only ever anti English when we play them at rugby and regard the Lions as the pinnacle of British and Irish sport. The best way to understand the fraternty is to listen to the players not the fans. Past Lions rate Lions test caps as the high point of their careers and potential Lions aspire to the same. If that's what it means for professional players to represent the Lions - who are we to think otherwise.

offload wrote:I'm welsh and British. I'm not the sort of Welshman that gives a damn about nationalism, Welsh politics, devolution or independence. In fact I hate the idea that nationalism might split the union.

But that IS nationalism. It might be a bigger Nation (Britain) but it's still your Nation. You don't define yourself as French, because you are not French, you are British.
I'm Irish and distinctly not British. Yet I'm told The Lions belongs to me too. Complex thing, The Lions.

SecretFly wrote:Agree to an extent with the brighter outlook on what sport should be but we also have to admit that sport, the very nature of the beast, is about the concept of 'them' and 'us' - and another name for that is politics.

You might be able to evade the more high profile examples of politics - race, creed, war and peace, work and health - but 'them' and 'us' is an integral part of the enjoyment package of sport, not alien to it.

Thats true Fly, but its also interchangeable. Here we might be Otahuhu vs Ponsonby in our club comp where we are fiercely us and them.

That changes when we all used to go to Eden Park to support Auckland- players from both sides in the same team.

Changes again at Superxv when Aucklnad fans are livid when losing to Canterbury and vice versa but we're all on the same team when it comes to the AB's.

The concept with the Lions is exactly the same, it may be integral to it but its also a choice we all make to be that way, it just seems that some things are more deep rooted than others, but its still, in the end, a choice we all make...

SecretFly wrote:

offload wrote:I'm welsh and British. I'm not the sort of Welshman that gives a damn about nationalism, Welsh politics, devolution or independence. In fact I hate the idea that nationalism might split the union.

But that IS nationalism. It might be a bigger Nation (Britain) but it's still your Nation. You don't define yourself as French, because you are not French, you are British.
I'm Irish and distinctly not British. Yet I'm told The Lions belongs to me too. Complex thing, The Lions.

That's a very fair point Fly. It's all a complex thing. I'm a traditionalist who doesn't want my "nation" to change any more than I do the British & Irish Lions. Perhaps I'd better just roll over and let some inevitable tide of change wash over.

gelodge wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:well Wales are not even represented on the British flag so so much for inclusiveness there.

A Japanese website ran a competition to fix that a number of years back. My personal favourite was this one (and if you substitute the pink hair for a cowboy hat it would be very apt for the rugby crowd):

Spoiler:

Technically it is, it contains the St Patrick's Saltire and he was a Welshman, born and raised till 16 years old when Irish raiders abducted him.

I've heard the suggestion of a gold outline on the St George's Cross to represent the flag of St David before. I'd be alright with that, the Union Jack is a gaudy mess already, it can't get much worse, might as well bling it up.

I reckon we go for a couple of lions (rampant & passant gardant), a unicorn and a dragon having a playful scrap, with a stag playing a harp in the background though.

As I just wrote on another thread

SA, NZ, Aus live in the same 1/2 of the world. You guys live on 2 islands. It's much easier to relate to each other when you are that close.

The ANZAC spirit runs pretty deep when the Poopie hits the fan but really SA and NZ don't have too much in common other than rugby and most of us speaking English. We did contribute soldiers to the Boer War but I don't think that endears us to many Springbok fans.

I think you mistake our "foam-mouthed frenzy" for genuine dislike/hatred.

We have a long (and extremely enjoyable) history of intense rivalry in rugby, typically characterised by the sort of vitriolic insult that would probably get you decked in any other forum.

To me, for example, it's a joy to encourage the Welsh in their bi-polar mood swings from best team in the world (on little evidence) to worst (on equally thin evidence).

I'm sure the Welsh love to laugh at England still harking back to a RWC 9 years ago as evidence of our inherent rugby superiority.

Sure, it gets vicious sometimes, but we actually have sneaking respect for each other - just don't tell anyone!

Thanks for the comments.

Personally, there´s a little envy from me that a Lions equivalent doesn´t exist for SA, NZ and Aus. I´d love to see Genia serving Carter or a big bad South African backrower like Burger working with Pocock or Beale and Dagg trying to outdo each other in the wow factor. I think though the Lions concept is enhanced by the fact that generally they go into the tours as underdogs. A SH equivalent taking on each individual HN might not have the same appeal. I´m not saying a combined SH team would be invincible (I tend to think each separate team would play better individually. It´d be more the novelty factor of seeing traditional foes playing alongside one another) but that they´d have healthy odds for a series victory.

Then again, I don´t have to live with the fatigue factor the following season, the politics of which coach or team and the style of play they used. It´s swings and roundabouts.

Good on you bluesman for touring with the Lions. That´s a special part of rugby you´ll witness first hand and something I could never experience as a true Lions fan (though I won´t deny I´ll probably be supporting the Lions. Just not the following tour!). There´s undoubtedly some envy in that regard. A World Cup is not the same as a Lions tour. The latter is a deeper insight into the rugby psyche of not only the host country but also the diverse range of fans that make up the Barmy Army. I remember having a good laugh with them when they toured NZ and Australia (I found the cricket version a louder and more obnoxious version of the rugby one to be honest).