ATP Latest: Nadal Resigns And The Plot...Thickens...

by noleisthebest Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

Nadal resigns from ATP council of players.

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=16968&zoneid=25

An unexpected but not quite so surprising development
Interesting times ahead.

What's coming next?

by hawkeye Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:21 pm

djlovesyou wrote:It's your thread hawkeye.

What did you expect to happen when you started this thing off?

The original post highlights Nadal's 'eccentricities' and now you're complaining because people are talking about them on the thread, but not in the way that you want.

I think your on the wrong "Why I dislike Nadal thread"... This isn't "Enough is enough" (the one I started... more fool me as it turned out) or "POOR SPORTSMANSHIP" this is

ATP Latest: Nadal Resigns And The Plot...Thickens...

Mods. Wouldn't it be helpful to combine these three threads? They are all basically the same. I could think up a good title for it if needed. It would make it much easier for posters who are bored of this one topic to avoid it and discuss other things instead and also it would be helpful for posters who like to discuss little else...

by Guest Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:40 pm

hawkeye wrote:

Mods. Wouldn't it be helpful to combine these three threads? They are all basically the same. I could think up a good title for it if needed. It would make it much easier for posters who are bored of this one topic to avoid it and discuss other things instead and also it would be helpful for posters who like to discuss little else...

No
If you dont want to discuss it, post on another thread.
If you are sick of these articles, make an article on a different subject.

I said the other day its the same old stuff being posted, its up to you the posters to change that, not the mods.

by reckoner Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:42 pm

Gav wrote:
hawkeye wrote:

Mods. Wouldn't it be helpful to combine these three threads? They are all basically the same. I could think up a good title for it if needed. It would make it much easier for posters who are bored of this one topic to avoid it and discuss other things instead and also it would be helpful for posters who like to discuss little else...
No
If you dont want to discuss it, post on another thread.
If you are sick of these articles, make an article on a different subject.

I said the other day its the same old stuff being posted, its up to you the posters to change that, not the mods.

by noleisthebest Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:20 pm

Enough is enough! Run

by time please Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:41 pm

A slightly more detailed report:

http://www.thesportreview.com/tsr/2012/03/rafael-nadal-quits-atp-players-council-role/#comment-25566

by noleisthebest Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:01 am

time please wrote:A slightly more detailed report:

http://www.thesportreview.com/tsr/2012/03/rafael-nadal-quits-atp-players-council-role/#comment-25566

Thanks TP,
From the horse's mouth:

"I believe that we did a few things well for the sport. I believe it’s not enough. " Laugh

by time please Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:49 am

"Confirmation came initially via the New York Times’ Christopher Clarey in a tweet on Monday, which reported Nadal’s camp as saying “he resigned last week…felt lack of support from some of the Board.”

I don't think there has ever been a tennis player with such a very active PR team - from the blogs before majors in The Times and NY Times, to the constant stream of information over niggles and aches to the airing of discontent with the world's media.

It's constant communication gone mad!

Nadal's team should not have gone public with the above before the ATP announcement - in fact I would go further and ask why this needed to be brought into the public arena.

enough is enough already! (sorry, wasn't going to be the only one who hadn't said it!! Wink

)

by **laverfan** Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:45 pm

To reinforce what TP is saying...

1. Neither Simon Briggs (Telegraph) nor Daniel Kaplan (SBJ) would give up their source, would they? Chris Clarey (NY Times), Craig Gabriel (Australia) are the other two journalists who knew on Monday afternoon.

2. Nadal told the London Times' Neil Harman in January that he was tired of the aggravation that goes along with being a board member.

http://tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=16968&zoneid=25

I wonder if this is from before the public spat with Federer or after. chin

3. I cannot find anything closer than 'Nadal camp'.

Confirmation came initially via the New York Times’ Christopher Clarey in a tweet on Monday, which reported Nadal’s camp as saying “he resigned last week…felt lack of support from some of the Board.”

See the link from TP.

4. This is Craig Gabriel from Australia, one of the broadcasters involved with AO.

http://2011.australianopen.com/en_AU/interactive/radio/index.html

5. The question now is how did the four journalists I have named get the news, and from where? chin

(Posted on MTL earlier)

by reckoner Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:52 pm

perhaps his "girlfriend" leaked the story?

by Josiah Maiestas Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:55 pm

I'll be fair and say Nadal is playing with some wind in his sails after venturing away from this "council". But I still believe Murray has a better chance in winning the final out of the two players.

by time please Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:05 pm

laverfan wrote:5. The question now is how did the four journalists I have named get the news, and from where?

The same place that Harman got his 'Nadal plays Wimbledon final with fractured foot' bit of PR I would imagine before he had to tweet that he had been mistaken - a rather embarrassing situation for an experienced sports journalist to find himself in.

by **laverfan** Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:12 pm

TP... if 'Nadal's camp' is the source and provided this information to some named journalists, does it not constitute a deliberate attempt to 'leak'? Crying or Very sad

Nadal, as a person, can always plead ignorance and point the finger internally to some one in his 'camp', but very Crying or Very sad

nonetheless.

by reckoner Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:19 pm

But LF, his whole camp is totally ultra humble so you must be misunderstanding matters.

by time please Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:26 pm

Even with the best will in the world, I fail to see how these leaks can come from anywhere but the Nadal camp.

I think Nadal has had his image very micro managed by Benito whatisname and Uncle Toni - the 'humble' champion was extremely popular with the press, the champion that gave major newspapers exclusives, or a member of his PR team did in terms of blogs even more so. This guaranteed a sympathetic press - that did not examine the discrepancies between performance and supposed injuries nor commentate unfavourably on the less than perfect manners on court .

I have a feeling that the Nadal camp may have slightly over played their hand in 2011, helped by the Wimbledon story and Nadal's outburst at AO in direct contrast to a very dignified response from Federer. I think Nadal believed (and why wouldn't he on past evidence?) that he had the press in his corner and they would support him over Federer and the rest of the PC, and the ATP.

by reckoner Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:30 pm

It's like North Korea in that camp - anyone remember the Lynn Barber piece lol...

by time please Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:31 pm

yes - she got slaughtered for that ATP Latest: Nadal Resigns And The Plot...Thickens... - Page 3 810156456

by Josiah Maiestas Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:34 pm

if 'Nadal's camp' is the source and provided this information to some named journalists, does it not constitute a deliberate attempt to 'leak'?

Sounds like an attempt to make Nadal look like an innocent victim.

But LF, his whole camp is totally ultra humble so you must be misunderstanding matters.

Humble Nadal who cannot wait to change his shirt 3 times in an hour and capture more girlies to his bandwagon. clap

by time please Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:44 pm

Sorry JM, but your post just detracts from the point in question imo.

Nadal is very marketable as a body - and the team have cashed in on that very well with the Armani shoots and the Shakira videos and whatever the latest one is advertising with Bar whatshername. That's smart of his team- he has a certain look, just as Fed has another and I think that is where they have both been well managed at maximising their income with the right advertisers. Nadal is as good a 'face' (I use the word loosely ) for Armani as Fed is for Credit Suisse.

That is completely different from a PR team using newspapers as skillfully a politician would do to get their campaigns (in this case the ranking system and the schedule) into the headlines; that is quite extraordinary for a sportsman!

by noleisthebest Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:54 pm

reckoner wrote:But LF, his whole camp is totally ultra humble so you must be misunderstanding matters.

Yes, that's the humbullest camp that ever was!

by Josiah Maiestas Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:57 pm

Have I said his team are not smart? Headscratch

My comment was a dig at Nadal's so called "humility" which I feel very indifferently.

by reckoner Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:42 pm

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2012/03/player-rankings-tennis

an article in the economist of all places covering this

I like the way the players are referred to as Mr Federer and Mr Nadal - jolly civillised bunch, economists.

by Tenez Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:57 pm

reckoner wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2012/03/player-rankings-tennis

an article in the economist of all places covering this

A very good summary of current tennis affairs. I like their mention of time taking between points as the consequence of the gruelling game.

by hawkeye Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:00 pm

Poor Djokovic! No one even noticed when he resigned from the player council...

by Tenez Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:01 pm

hawkeye wrote:Poor Djokovic! No one even noticed when he resigned from the player council...

What I like is the fact we did not even know he was there. Meaning he did not try to change everything to his advantage.

by noleisthebest Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:04 pm

hawkeye wrote:Poor Djokovic! No one even noticed when he resigned from the player council...

wow, now even you! Laugh

by HarpoMars Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:05 pm

I don't know about you but I sometimes feel as though Nadal offends people without trying. For example him taking time between points, or taking time before coming to do the coin toss, is his way of doing things. He's very superstitious, so he wants these things for his gain only, and not to distract other players. The toilet break in Indian Wells was weird I admit, but maybe he just didn't think that it would put Federer off, it was just that he needed to 'regroup' (as they say). Maybe thats the thing, he just doesn't think??

With the PR issue, I think that theory carries forward. Maybe there are people in his camp that tell him to do stuff and he listens to them without thinking them over.

Do I sound harsh in this post, I'm trying to sympathize??

There, I've said it Run

by reckoner Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:09 pm

Tenez wrote:
reckoner wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2012/03/player-rankings-tennis

an article in the economist of all places covering this

A very good summary of current tennis affairs. I like their mention of time taking between points as the consequence of the gruelling game.

Also did you notice the level of acrimony in the comments is just like it is here!

by Guest Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:14 pm

Spoiler:

by Tenez Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:14 pm

reckoner wrote:
Tenez wrote:
reckoner wrote:http://www.economist.com/blogs/gametheory/2012/03/player-rankings-tennis

an article in the economist of all places covering this

A very good summary of current tennis affairs. I like their mention of time taking between points as the consequence of the gruelling game.

Also did you notice the level of acrimony in the comments is just like it is here!

Certainly, though they tried to appear as unbiased, it was not very convincing. Wink

by gallery play Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:20 pm

HarpoMars wrote:I don't know about you but I sometimes feel as though Nadal offends people without trying. For example him taking time between points, or taking time before coming to do the coin toss, is his way of doing things. He's very superstitious, so he wants these things for his gain only, and not to distract other players. The toilet break in Indian Wells was weird I admit, but maybe he just didn't think that it would put Federer off, it was just that he needed to 'regroup' (as they say). Maybe thats the thing, he just doesn't think??

With the PR issue, I think that theory carries forward. Maybe there are people in his camp that tell him to do stuff and he listens to them without thinking them over.

Do I sound harsh in this post, I'm trying to sympathize??

There, I've said it

Bottom line is :he don't gives a sh!t what other players think, as long as they submit to his terms. PR is for off court.

by reckoner Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:26 pm

Gav wrote:
Spoiler:

by Josiah Maiestas Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:32 pm

Gav wrote:
Spoiler:

http://www.italychannel.ru/img/47/475/Oliver_please_sir_i_want_some_more.jpg

Run

by Guest Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:34 pm

by lags72 Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:26 pm

HarpoMars wrote:I don't know about you but I sometimes feel as though Nadal offends people without trying. For example him taking time between points, or taking time before coming to do the coin toss, is his way of doing things. He's very superstitious, so he wants these things for his gain only, and not to distract other players. The toilet break in Indian Wells was weird I admit, but maybe he just didn't think that it would put Federer off, it was just that he needed to 'regroup' (as they say). Maybe thats the thing, he just doesn't think??

With the PR issue, I think that theory carries forward. Maybe there are people in his camp that tell him to do stuff and he listens to them without thinking them over.

Do I sound harsh in this post, I'm trying to sympathize??

There, I've said it

No, I wouldn't say it's harsh.

In fact, put like that, your analysis strikes me as quite feasible.

It doesn't in any way excuse the delays or ill-timed breaks etc, but it might just offer an explanation of sorts ...... ie, that the habits have now become instinctive, a sort of default setting and thus an integral part of his play ; and as such are acted upon without much thought or consideration for others.

And if it is the case that he doesn't think (or even care ..?) about what effect it all might have on the opponent of the day, then I really can't imagine there would be much thought as to the effect on spectators, whether keen fans or otherwise.

I put myself in a group of folk (a pretty large group I would think) who basically like Rafa, and who feel that he is a huge talent who has done great things for this sport, bringing flair and excitement, and yet who, at the same time (whether unwittingly or not), has also clouded not just our current-day perception of him but possibly his own longer-term legacy in the sport.

by Tenez Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:54 pm

Some go a very long way to find excuses to Nadal. I woudl say he is pretty lucky that all his unconscious habits and behaviour are helping him and his game and not playing against him and his game style.

Imagine if his OCDs were forcing him to be first at the net or play within 10sec. Lucky him.

by hawkeye Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:59 pm

Has anyone heard of the term "echo chamber"? This could explain the outbreak of "Nadal is the death of tennis" articles.

The echo chamber effect
refers to any situation in which information, ideas or beliefs are
amplified or reinforced by transmission inside an "enclosed" space...

...
How it impacts online communities

Participants in online communities may find their own opinions constantly echoed
back to them, which reinforces their individual belief systems. This
can create significant barriers to critical discourse within an online
medium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_%28media%29

Interesting...

by lags72 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:06 pm

All the debate and negative comment (some of it justified, some of it maybe not) could be brought to an end if Rafa himself would only stop giving such ammunition ....

by HarpoMars Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:09 pm

lags72 wrote:

I put myself in a group of folk (a pretty large group I would think) who basically like Rafa, and who feel that he is a huge talent who has done great things for this sport, bringing flair and excitement, and yet who, at the same time (whether unwittingly or not), has also clouded not just our current-day perception of him but possibly his own longer-term legacy in the sport.

lags, I agree with you there.

Tenez, I'm not really trying to find an excuse for Nadal, just saying that he sometimes appears a bit confused, foot in mouth, contradicting himself as if he doesn't know whats best. Seems a bit lost sometimes. It doesn't help that he keeps looking at Toni all the time, as if to ask what do I do now?
More often than not, I want Nadal to lose but thats just because I'm pro Federer. But then I can't help but feel sorry for the poor guy.

by hawkeye Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:10 pm

I don't think it's Rafa himself providing the ammunition...

by TRuffin Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:25 pm

[quote="gallery play"]

HarpoMars wrote:I don't know about you but I sometimes feel as though Nadal offends people without trying. For example him taking time between points, or taking time before coming to do the coin toss, is his way of doing things. He's very superstitious, so he wants these things for his gain only, and not to distract other players. The toilet break in Indian Wells was weird I admit, but maybe he just didn't think that it would put Federer off, it was just that he needed to 'regroup' (as they say). Maybe thats the thing, he just doesn't think??

With the PR issue, I think that theory carries forward. Maybe there are people in his camp that tell him to do stuff and he listens to them without thinking them over.

Do I sound harsh in this post, I'm trying to sympathize??

There, I've said it

No offense but it's pretty naive to think Nadal is doing these things and doesn't think it will bother the other player.. If it was one toilet break at Indian Wells, that would make sense, but we're talking about a guy who in many many tough matches and especially when momentum was in the other players faver has called for trainer breaks, MTO's, retaping his feet, bathroom breaks. That's just not all innocient coincindences. Even his supporters for the most part admit it's purposeful gamesmanship-- it's just whether you forgive or ignore that he's doing it, or whether you are turned off by him doing it- but just happy go lucky Nadal innocently taking his time and calling for MTO's with no motive in mind???? No way..

by socal1976 Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:44 pm

Ruffin, what if it is gamesmanship? My answer to that question is, So what? It has always been a part of the game, just ask one James Scott Connors. I am sure he has an ache or a pain that could warrant a MTO and lets say he even tries to take it strategically, what of it? World class tennis players have to blot out a lot of distractions and fight a lot of mental battles to get to the top, this sort of gamesmanship by Nadal isn't particularly worrying for me. Fed fans need to get over it, Roger is doing fine without the whinning and the excuse making. What Nadal is accused of is hardly the crime it is portrayed as, it is part of top flight competition to take a turn at disrupting your opponents rhthym.

by reckoner Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:48 pm

My answer to your "so what" is ... so what? Just because you think it is OK doesn't make it ok.

Enough is enough!

by HarpoMars Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:51 pm

Fair enough, I stand corrected, it annoys me when he does it too.

But something tells me that its not entirely his decision. I mean why risk appearing like a poor sportsman, unless he's got full support from his team telling him to do so. Doesn't he think that it will annoy fans and players? He's either got some nerve or he thinks its a good thing to do (hence my argument for not thinking).

by Tenez Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:51 pm

socal1976 wrote:Ruffin, what if it is gamesmanship? My answer to that question is, So what? It has always been a part of the game, just ask one James Scott Connors. I am sure he has an ache or a pain that could warrant a MTO and lets say he even tries to take it strategically, what of it? World class tennis players have to blot out a lot of distractions and fight a lot of mental battles to get to the top, this sort of gamesmanship by Nadal isn't particularly worrying for me. Fed fans need to get over it, Roger is doing fine without the whinning and the excuse making. What Nadal is accused of is hardly the crime it is portrayed as, it is part of top flight competition to take a turn at disrupting your opponents rhthym.

And where is the limit? Or maybe there is no limit to it....so what??!!

by Tenez Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:55 pm

HarpoMars wrote:But something tells me that its not entirely his decision. I mean why risk appearing like a poor sportsman, unless he's got full support from his team telling him to do so. Doesn't he think that it will annoy fans and players? He's either got some nerve or he thinks its a good thing to do (hence my argument for not thinking).

That's a different matter. I am 100% sure that Toni is behind 99% of that. He even told him to play with his left hand. Nadal has little say but he still does it, a bit like like a gipsy child stealing in the streets.We can see him both as a victim or plain guilty....except that Nadal is 26 soon.

by kemet Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:02 pm

socal1976 wrote:Ruffin, what if it is gamesmanship? My answer to that question is, So what? It has always been a part of the game, just ask one James Scott Connors. I am sure he has an ache or a pain that could warrant a MTO and lets say he even tries to take it strategically, what of it? World class tennis players have to blot out a lot of distractions and fight a lot of mental battles to get to the top, this sort of gamesmanship by Nadal isn't particularly worrying for me. Fed fans need to get over it, Roger is doing fine without the whinning and the excuse making. What Nadal is accused of is hardly the crime it is portrayed as, it is part of top flight competition to take a turn at disrupting your opponents rhthym.

On the warpath against Federer fans again I see.

Contrary to what you may think, Rafa's issues are bigger than Federer fans and Roger Federer and is really about the game of tennis. If other players and commentators are now bringing up the issue, please do not condemn Federer fans for it.

It is a valid issue and one that needs to be discussed.

by HarpoMars Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:03 pm

Tenez wrote:
HarpoMars wrote:But something tells me that its not entirely his decision. I mean why risk appearing like a poor sportsman, unless he's got full support from his team telling him to do so. Doesn't he think that it will annoy fans and players? He's either got some nerve or he thinks its a good thing to do (hence my argument for not thinking).

That's a different matter. I am 100% sure that Toni is behind 99% of that. He even told him to play with his left hand. Nadal has little say but he still does it, a bit like like a gipsy child stealing in the streets.We can see him both as a victim or plain guilty....except that Nadal is 26 soon.

Indeed...maybe one day he'll look back and regret that he didn't think for himself.

by Tenez Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:10 pm

HarpoMars wrote:
Tenez wrote:
HarpoMars wrote:But something tells me that its not entirely his decision. I mean why risk appearing like a poor sportsman, unless he's got full support from his team telling him to do so. Doesn't he think that it will annoy fans and players? He's either got some nerve or he thinks its a good thing to do (hence my argument for not thinking).

That's a different matter. I am 100% sure that Toni is behind 99% of that. He even told him to play with his left hand. Nadal has little say but he still does it, a bit like like a gipsy child stealing in the streets.We can see him both as a victim or plain guilty....except that Nadal is 26 soon.

Indeed...maybe one day he'll look back and regret that he didn't think for himself.

Or, if I were him, I'd thank Toni everyday cause without him and his "plan", Nadal woudl be nowhere the top of the tennis world in my view.

by socal1976 Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:16 pm

Tenez wrote:
socal1976 wrote:Ruffin, what if it is gamesmanship? My answer to that question is, So what? It has always been a part of the game, just ask one James Scott Connors. I am sure he has an ache or a pain that could warrant a MTO and lets say he even tries to take it strategically, what of it? World class tennis players have to blot out a lot of distractions and fight a lot of mental battles to get to the top, this sort of gamesmanship by Nadal isn't particularly worrying for me. Fed fans need to get over it, Roger is doing fine without the whinning and the excuse making. What Nadal is accused of is hardly the crime it is portrayed as, it is part of top flight competition to take a turn at disrupting your opponents rhthym.

And where is the limit? Or maybe there is no limit to it....so what??!!

There obviously is a limit tenez, the lines have been pushed much further at other periods in tennis history I think you are aware of that. Always has been part of the game at the highest levels and always will be. Ask any of the past greats. For example, in Agassi's book he gets really angry with courier because after one year in the FO that Courier beat Agassi in three sets Courier decided that after his match he was going to go on the tread mill at the players lounge and run a few miles. Andre was peed at that obvious psychological rub of his nose in it. There is a line between cheating and gamesmanship, and when you see it you will know it.

by HarpoMars Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:21 pm

Tenez wrote:
HarpoMars wrote:
Tenez wrote:
HarpoMars wrote:But something tells me that its not entirely his decision. I mean why risk appearing like a poor sportsman, unless he's got full support from his team telling him to do so. Doesn't he think that it will annoy fans and players? He's either got some nerve or he thinks its a good thing to do (hence my argument for not thinking).

That's a different matter. I am 100% sure that Toni is behind 99% of that. He even told him to play with his left hand. Nadal has little say but he still does it, a bit like like a gipsy child stealing in the streets.We can see him both as a victim or plain guilty....except that Nadal is 26 soon.

Indeed...maybe one day he'll look back and regret that he didn't think for himself.

Or, if I were him, I'd thank Toni everyday cause without him and his "plan", Nadal woudl be nowhere the top of the tennis world in my view.

Interesting, what would you do if you were Nadal now? Thank him for making him the player he is and stand up and say, ok thats it, I'm not going to listen to you anymore about these unsportsman 'games' I play. Or stick to something that works and grin and bear it. Seems like Nadal has a dilemma.

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