ATP Latest: Nadal Resigns And The Plot...Thickens...

First topic message reminder :

Nadal resigns from ATP council of players.

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=16968&zoneid=25

An unexpected but not quite so surprising development
Interesting times ahead.


What's coming next?

HarpoMars wrote: Seems like Nadal has a dilemma.

If you believe the reasons behind the "dilemma".

kemet wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Ruffin, what if it is gamesmanship? My answer to that question is, So what? It has always been a part of the game, just ask one James Scott Connors. I am sure he has an ache or a pain that could warrant a MTO and lets say he even tries to take it strategically, what of it? World class tennis players have to blot out a lot of distractions and fight a lot of mental battles to get to the top, this sort of gamesmanship by Nadal isn't particularly worrying for me. Fed fans need to get over it, Roger is doing fine without the whinning and the excuse making. What Nadal is accused of is hardly the crime it is portrayed as, it is part of top flight competition to take a turn at disrupting your opponents rhthym.

On the warpath against Federer fans again I see.

Contrary to what you may think, Rafa's issues are bigger than Federer fans and Roger Federer and is really about the game of tennis. If other players and commentators are now bringing up the issue, please do not condemn Federer fans for it.

It is a valid issue and one that needs to be discussed.

I agree Kemet, the rules should be enforced about Mtos and time between points. But if certain rules are not enforced the players will naturally try to push the enevelope in terms of gamesmanship. It is a valid issue for discussion but then at the end of the day I think it is making a mountain out of mole hill, especially in likes of the behavior we have seen on the men's tour from the dawn of said tour. Psyching out your opposition has always been part of it. I don't have a problem by the way with enforcing the rules on the books, just give a couple of guys point penalties and be done with it.

socal1976 wrote:

I agree Kemet, the rules should be enforced about Mtos and time between points. But if certain rules are not enforced the players will naturally try to push the enevelope in terms of gamesmanship. It is a valid issue for discussion but then at the end of the day I think it is making a mountain out of mole hill, especially in likes of the behavior we have seen on the men's tour from the dawn of said tour. Psyching out your opposition has always been part of it. I don't have a problem by the way with enforcing the rules on the books, just give a couple of guys point penalties and be done with it.

There is no rule in ATP against 'washing your hands in the middle of the game'. Should there be?

socal1976 wrote:Ruffin, what if it is gamesmanship? My answer to that question is, So what? It has always been a part of the game, just ask one James Scott Connors. I am sure he has an ache or a pain that could warrant a MTO and lets say he even tries to take it strategically, what of it? World class tennis players have to blot out a lot of distractions and fight a lot of mental battles to get to the top, this sort of gamesmanship by Nadal isn't particularly worrying for me. Fed fans need to get over it, Roger is doing fine without the whinning and the excuse making. What Nadal is accused of is hardly the crime it is portrayed as, it is part of top flight competition to take a turn at disrupting your opponents rhthym.

So because Conners or other did or do it, it's okay for him to do it? That's a childs excuse.. And Fed Fans? this isn't a Roger/Rafa issue.. that's always ur fallback.. It's not like he does only things that are within the rules but just gamesmanship, he breaks some absolute rules with the coaching and timing. Nadal fans claim they are minor but what if the NBA allowed 1 or even 5 players to shoot a free throw from the 9 foot 6 inch line and everyone else had to shoot from the 10 foot line which is the rule? Would that be fair? It's only 6 inches!!! big deal.. so what.

On one thread you are saying people who accuse Nadal of faking injuries have egg on their face because his injury is real, on this you take the "if it's fake, so what" attitude.

There are things my favourite players do that I don't like and I will rightly call them on it. I understand as a fan it aggravates you to see people pile on your favorite player who you obviously are passionate about-- but I would respect (in this case) Nadal fans more if they could just say "hey, we love the guy even with his faults, love his style, his fight- but we agree he needs to play within the rules and spirit of the sport" What's wrong with that?

hawkeye wrote:I don't think it's Rafa himself providing the ammunition...

Felt I had pretty much said my bit on this well-worn chestnut of a debate, it can get a bit tedious and I wasn't really planning to come back to it.

In principle I've absolutely no issue with you putting your own thoughts HE but .....with respect you've got me a tad puzzled here

If it's not Rafa himself providing the ammunition for criticism - then just who might it be ....??

The watching crowd... ? The umpire .... ? Members of the press (aka 'the meeja' !) perhaps ....?

Personally I've never spotted spectators suddenly asking for a MTO when a scoreline is coincidentally tight ; or anyone from the commentary team endlessly re-arranging their clothing just before the start of each point ; or an umpire deciding to tape up his fingers even before the match gets underway - when it could so easily have all been sorted in the dressing room before actually being called on to court ....)

TRuffin : outstanding post

HarpoMars wrote:Interesting, what would you do if you were Nadal now? Thank him for making him the player he is and stand up and say, ok thats it, I'm not going to listen to you anymore about these unsportsman 'games' I play. Or stick to something that works and grin and bear it. Seems like Nadal has a dilemma.

It's similar to Agassi hating his father cause he pushed him too much (have not read his book but heard something like that). However can Agassi reject all he got from tennis, therefore from his father?

I don't think so. Like the gypsy child stealing in the street, he then grows up and educates his children the way he was. No one to blame...it's just a facet of our world.

@Ruffin, first off i am not a particular fan of Nadal, this site has become a mecca of odd fedophile extremists certainly not all the fed fans, most are quite sane, but a certain segment of them. If I participated on a site where unreasonable Nadal fans bashed fed's character continually I would defend fed just as much. Neither of the two are my favorites, although I like watching them. And excuse me for pointing out the obvious that these time and gamesmanship arguments are usually most vociferously coming from a segment of aggrieved Fed fans.

For my part I have always stated, that eventhough Novak is my favorite that the time rule should be imposed equally on everyone.

Ruffin, as a fan of the game with some knowledge you should be able to acknowledge that these sort of gamesmanship tactics have been prevalent in tennis a very psychological sport since the dawn of top flight tennis. As a fan of the game you don't have to like it, but put it in proper prospective. It is hardly earth shattering level evil it is portrayed.

Whoever breaks the rules should be warned and then deducted a point, until the ATP decides it cares about its own rules on time between points I can't be too bothered by a little bending by a few cagey vets. Its part of sports and there is an acceptable level of it the higher up you go.

socal1976 wrote:@Ruffin, first off i am not a particular fan of Nadal, this site has become a mecca of odd fedophile extremists certainly not all the fed fans, most are quite sane, but a certain segment of them. If I participated on a site where unreasonable Nadal fans bashed fed's character continually I would defend fed just as much. Neither of the two are my favorites, although I like watching them. And excuse me for pointing out the obvious that these time and gamesmanship arguments are usually most vociferously coming from a segment of aggrieved Fed fans.

For my part I have always stated, that eventhough Novak is my favorite that the time rule should be imposed equally on everyone.

Ruffin, as a fan of the game with some knowledge you should be able to acknowledge that these sort of gamesmanship tactics have been prevalent in tennis a very psychological sport since the dawn of top flight tennis. As a fan of the game you don't have to like it, but put it in proper prospective. It is hardly earth shattering level evil it is portrayed.

Whoever breaks the rules should be warned and then deducted a point, until the ATP decides it cares about its own rules on time between points I can't be too bothered by a little bending by a few cagey vets. Its part of sports and there is an acceptable level of it the higher up you go.

Your choice of language is somewhat peculiar and is a lightening rod for rebuttals. You are arguing from the premise that the "fedophile extremists" as you put it are the ones leading the charge against Rafa. It seems to me like you are the one who is exhibiting the "extremist" behaviour of which you accuse these "fedophiles", because you always seem to launch into unprovoked attacks against these so-called extremists instead of focusing on the topic at hand, i.e. Rafa's on-court demeanor.

Roger Federer is not even in the tournament anymore and yet you feel the need to defend someone you have never met based on these "extremists".

Has it ever occurred to you that people may have legitimate concerns about Rafa's tactics, Federer fan or otherwise? I do have such concerns, and if that makes me a "fedofile extremist", so be it.

socal1976 wrote:

Ruffin, as a fan of the game with some knowledge you should be able to acknowledge that these sort of gamesmanship tactics have been prevalent in tennis a very psychological sport since the dawn of top flight tennis. As a fan of the game you don't have to like it, but put it in proper prospective. It is hardly earth shattering level evil it is portrayed.

Whoever breaks the rules should be warned and then deducted a point, until the ATP decides it cares about its own rules on time between points I can't be too bothered by a little bending by a few cagey vets. Its part of sports and there is an acceptable level of it the higher up you go.

I am not Ruffin, but will give you an example. A 17-year old playing at W against an established British player (at that time) was uncertain whether a ball was in at MP (it would have given the match to this British player). The British player offered and re-played the MP and won the match. I will leave it to you as an exercise, who the players were and which Wimbledon Men's round this was.

Another example, a more recent one, a player serving for the match at 5-4 in the second set, down 15-40, heard an out call. and played the returned ball into the net. It turned out that a spectator had made a call. Instead of arguing with the umpire to ask for a Let, he continued and did win the match in the ensuing TB. Again, an exercise for you to think about this match this year (2012) and show me where gamesmanship was involved at all.

Laverfan: those are nice examples but I do not think they contradict what socal was saying. He did not argue that gamesmanship was to be applauded, he was just saying that Nadal's gamesmanship was not nearly as extreme as it is sometimes portrayed. I tend to agree with that. It would be nicer if he cut some or all of that out, but it is not exactly outside of what many other (though not all) players would be willing to do if they thought it would help them.

summerblues wrote:Laverfan: those are nice examples but I do not think they contradict what socal was saying. He did not argue that gamesmanship was to be applauded, he was just saying that Nadal's gamesmanship was not nearly as extreme as it is sometimes portrayed. I tend to agree with that. It would be nicer if he cut some or all of that out, but it is not exactly outside of what many other (though not all) players would be willing to do if they thought it would help them.

I disagree here. Nadal uses gamesmanship on every point almost and it is documented that the more important the point the more he breaks the time rule. There in no equivalent in the history of tennis as far as I know.

Tenez wrote:

summerblues wrote:Laverfan: those are nice examples but I do not think they contradict what socal was saying. He did not argue that gamesmanship was to be applauded, he was just saying that Nadal's gamesmanship was not nearly as extreme as it is sometimes portrayed. I tend to agree with that. It would be nicer if he cut some or all of that out, but it is not exactly outside of what many other (though not all) players would be willing to do if they thought it would help them.

I disagree here. Nadal uses gamesmanship on every point almost and it is documented that the more important the point the more he breaks the time rule. There in no equivalent in the history of tennis as far as I know.

summerblues wrote:Laverfan: those are nice examples but I do not think they contradict what socal was saying. He did not argue that gamesmanship was to be applauded, he was just saying that Nadal's gamesmanship was not nearly as extreme as it is sometimes portrayed.

Are you suggesting that 'gamesmanship' should be looked through the lense of 'degrees' and be discussed based on the 'gravity' of the situation? There is a US law which is colloquially called 'three-strikes-and-out'.

summerblues wrote:I tend to agree with that. It would be nicer if he cut some or all of that out, but it is not exactly outside of what many other (though not all) players would be willing to do if they thought it would help them.

This has been discussed in the press and his PR is aware of the 'image'. It is not the first time such a situation has arisen. My question is this - If you are trained to serve inside the service box to have a valid service, why cannot this be addressed by training? I understand the 'individual' style arguments, but the sport allows different styles to flourish, within the context of the sport's laws and stipulations.

BTW, can anyone recall the players involved in the situations that I am referring to?

Well the recent incident was Fed vs Harrison, where Fed just let it go when a spectator called "out"... the other one rings a bell but the grey calls aren't cooperating!

kemet wrote: ... and is a lightening rod for rebuttals. ...

That sounds a bit kinky to me.

reckoner wrote:Well the recent incident was Fed vs Harrison, where Fed just let it go when a spectator called "out"... the other one rings a bell but the grey calls aren't cooperating!

You are correct.

The other incident is Roger Taylor v Bjorn Borg 1973 W QFs. Taylor won 7-5 in the fifth. The UTube videos do not have this last incident. Here is a video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQQfSChtzUU

laverfan wrote:

reckoner wrote:Well the recent incident was Fed vs Harrison, where Fed just let it go when a spectator called "out"... the other one rings a bell but the grey calls aren't cooperating!

You are correct.

The other incident is Roger Taylor v Bjorn Borg 1973 W QFs. Taylor won 7-5 in the fifth. The UTube videos do not have this last incident. Here is a video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQQfSChtzUU

I'm always amazed at your tennis knowledge, laverfan!

laverfan wrote:The other incident is Roger Taylor v Bjorn Borg 1973 W QFs. Taylor won 7-5 in the fifth. The UTube videos do not have this last incident. Here is a video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQQfSChtzUU...

That clip shows the fifth set and shows how the game has changed with regard to Nadal, Djokovic, Del Potro and others. No towelling down between points, no multiple ball bounces, no wandering around the court after the point is won or lost, no long stares at the opponent before serving. As soon as the point is won or lost they walk back to the serving line get the next ball and serve. The time taken between points seems to be at least half that than what it is today.

hear hear.

I would just like to add a similar incident occurred in the fourth set of the 1924 Mens Wimbledon quarter-finals between Britains very own Algernon Kingscote and the representative from the USA Norris Williams. I remember telling my daughter, who was sat there beside me eating her strawberries and cream (it was her first time at Wimbledon), that if it hadn't have been for that incident Mr Kingscote would have verily won.

laverfan wrote:Are you suggesting that 'gamesmanship' should be looked through the lense of 'degrees'...?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Sort of like when most people would say that robbing a bank at gunpoint is worse than speeding on a highway, even though both of them break the law. In fact, some of the forms of gamesmanship (e.g., letting the other player wait at the net before the coin toss) may not even technically fall outside the rules.

laverfan wrote:My question is this - If you are trained to serve inside the service box to have a valid service, why cannot this be addressed by training?

Uh oh, where did this come from? Is this referring to Nadal's time wasting between the points? Let me be clear that my view on that is that:

(a) He (obviously) knows that he is breaking the rules
(b) He could change it but has no intention of doing so
(c) It is gamesmanship, and it would be better if he did not do it

Nore Staat wrote:I would just like to add a similar incident occurred in the fourth set of the 1924 Mens Wimbledon quarter-finals between Britains very own Algernon Kingscote and the representative from the USA Norris Williams. I remember telling my daughter, who was sat there beside me eating her strawberries and cream (it was her first time at Wimbledon), that if it hadn't have been for that incident Mr Kingscote would have verily won.

Shush! I'll have you know Norris is my son... He was clearly the better player on the day.

Tenez wrote:I disagree here. Nadal uses gamesmanship on every point almost and it is documented that the more important the point the more he breaks the time rule. There in no equivalent in the history of tennis as far as I know.

Ok, I suppose I am not convinced but this does at least frame the question nicely. Rather than one side saying that he employs gamesmanship and the other side saying that so do many other players, and both sides being obviously right, this makes a claim that, if true, justifies singling Nadal out.

But why do we say he is one of the worst? You say "on every point almost". I cannot think of anything that happens on almost every point other than his time wasting and, in regard to that, there are players who are not so much better than him. Novak for one is not far off. So what makes Rafa so special?

Nore Staat wrote:No towelling down between points, no multiple ball bounces, no wandering around the court after the point is won or lost, no long stares at the opponent before serving.

Yeah, also find all that quite annoying - especially towelling down gets on my nerves for some reason. I am pretty sure I once saw Andy Roddick grab a towel after his opponent's double fault.

Let us get back to the OP. I am not sure I have the desire to bash Nadal on this thread.

Djokovic was on the PC from June 2008-2010.

He has the experience, so it would be good to see him back on the PC.

Murray can take the Gonzalez spot. It would be good to see part of the Top 4 back on the PC.

summerblues wrote:But why do we say he is one of the worst? You say "on every point almost". I cannot think of anything that happens on almost every point other than his time wasting and, in regard to that, there are players who are not so much better than him. Novak for one is not far off. So what makes Rafa so special?

In the history of tennis, I'd say Connors comes pretty close to Nadal but all those players were playing tennis at a normal rhythm. It is so important to do so cause it really breaks the rhythm of the opponent and defeats the purpose of going for winners. It's just gamesmanship with a smile, unlike Connors or Becker, but it's gamesmanship nonetheless.

Yes Djoko does it too..but we cannot blame him, Delpo or any other before we sort out Nadal cause he is the one that made it "accepetable". Nadal did it to get to number 1 in the world and continued to do it as a number one.

None of us here really know Nadal and there is no reason to dislike him for anything other than what we actually see on court. And what we see is not right. Once people understand that, we can move on beyond those little fan wars. I am not a fan or Djoko, Granollers nor Murray but you don't hear me too often about them. I keep the discussion at a tennis level. WIth Nadal it's more difficult.

Tenez wrote:In the history of tennis, I'd say Connors comes pretty close to Nadal but all those players were playing tennis at a normal rhythm. It is so important to do so cause it really breaks the rhythm of the opponent and defeats the purpose of going for winners. It's just gamesmanship with a smile, unlike Connors or Becker, but it's gamesmanship nonetheless.

Oh sure it is gamesmanship, I just do not think it is necessarily worse (though not better either) than what some other players are doing. Perhaps his gamesmanship is more visible because the style of game that brought him success is somewhat outside of mainstream of styles that typically lead to success in tennis, and because some of his tactics appear to be designed to support that style. Gamesmanship of many of the other players in the past may have been more "in tune" with the way the game was typically played. But that does not necessarily make him worse - just more visible.

In any event, I do not think you and I are far enough apart on this topic to support a meaty debate. Also laverfan is right that this has veered slightly off the subject of this thread. Therefore, I will stop here, say that in principle I am willing to entertain the idea that in the end you may be right, I may be wrong, and Nadal may be worse than most, and leave it at that.

Nore Staat wrote:

kemet wrote: ... and is a lightening rod for rebuttals. ...

That sounds a bit kinky to me.

I see where your mind is.
But know I am not alluding to what you are thinking.

Tenez wrote:

summerblues wrote:But why do we say he is one of the worst? You say "on every point almost". I cannot think of anything that happens on almost every point other than his time wasting and, in regard to that, there are players who are not so much better than him. Novak for one is not far off. So what makes Rafa so special?

In the history of tennis, I'd say Connors comes pretty close to Nadal but all those players were playing tennis at a normal rhythm. It is so important to do so cause it really breaks the rhythm of the opponent and defeats the purpose of going for winners. It's just gamesmanship with a smile, unlike Connors or Becker, but it's gamesmanship nonetheless.

Yes Djoko does it too..but we cannot blame him, Delpo or any other before we sort out Nadal cause he is the one that made it "accepetable". Nadal did it to get to number 1 in the world and continued to do it as a number one.

None of us here really know Nadal and there is no reason to dislike him for anything other than what we actually see on court. And what we see is not right. Once people understand that, we can move on beyond those little fan wars. I am not a fan or Djoko, Granollers nor Murray but you don't hear me too often about them. I keep the discussion at a tennis level. WIth Nadal it's more difficult.

Exactly! I have nothing against Rafa the invidual. It's just that I have seen too many instances when he takes convenient medical timeouts (recent media announcements notwithstanding) and make miraculous recoveries (Wimbledon 2010 match against Petzschner a great case in point).

Again, people can label me a Federer extremist or apologist, it still does not change the facts.

@ SummerB - Good of you. ! Just to say, that I agree the purpose is not "worse" as essentially the time taking is more to do to with allowing his gruelling game to succeed than maybe unsettling his opponent (though I am sure he is aware of both) but it is more consistant or constant and has therefore more impact on his opponents than an outburst of McEnroe or Connors.


Let's move on as you suggested.

Yes Kemet!

socal1976 wrote:@Ruffin, first off i am not a particular fan of Nadal, this site has become a mecca of odd fedophile extremists certainly not all the fed fans, most are quite sane, but a certain segment of them. If I participated on a site where unreasonable Nadal fans bashed fed's character continually I would defend fed just as much. Neither of the two are my favorites, although I like watching them. And excuse me for pointing out the obvious that these time and gamesmanship arguments are usually most vociferously coming from a segment of aggrieved Fed fans.

For my part I have always stated, that eventhough Novak is my favorite that the time rule should be imposed equally on everyone.

Ruffin, as a fan of the game with some knowledge you should be able to acknowledge that these sort of gamesmanship tactics have been prevalent in tennis a very psychological sport since the dawn of top flight tennis. As a fan of the game you don't have to like it, but put it in proper prospective. It is hardly earth shattering level evil it is portrayed.

Whoever breaks the rules should be warned and then deducted a point, until the ATP decides it cares about its own rules on time between points I can't be too bothered by a little bending by a few cagey vets. Its part of sports and there is an acceptable level of it the higher up you go.

I would argue that not all bashing Nadal has affilitation to Federer... so blaming it on extremists seems like you are assuming something based on your own bias.

Again, I don't argue Nadal is the first or will be the last- but at this present time- he is a current player and one of the greatest to ever play the game and should held to a high standard of conduct- we are all on here to talk about tennis- so his behaviour is fair game to discuss.

Some of what Nadal does can be called gamesmanship which as I read on here seems to indicate a very mild form of breaking rules. What about things like the coaching though? That is extremely bad misconduct. I have watched in person and witnessed Toni throughout a match using signals (similair to american baseball) to tell Nadal where to return, where to serve. The whole world has seen Toni do it-- pull on his ears, touch one side of his cheek or the other. Certainly in the USA- nearly every recent match the cameras have caught him and the commentators mentioned it. It's not a secret. A good example is the Berdych match- Nadal was on his way to losing it.. for some reason was staying way to far back while Berdych served adn couldn't seem to adjust that on his own...the whole world saw Toni direct Nadal in, and that one adjustment turned the tide.. That's basically stealing a win from another player as Nadal on his own couldnt or wouldnt' adjust. That is not gamesmanship, that is cheating. I don't know any Nadal fan that even disputes it, they just say "oh, others do it, it's not a bid deal",etc.. and to me that's no excuse. Nadal in his position should be above it.

You're right- the ATP should step in and uphold it's rules. It is partly their fault.....but some players..some very famous succesful players still abide by those rules even though they could clearly get away with it----so Nadal could too. We can't hate him for it, but to me it's a mark against his alltime greatness. Even when the ATP steps in and fines him like Wimbledon for coaching- NAdal didn't stop. In fact, and it is a fact- he denied Toni was coaching him, but also said that in the past he had, but this time didn't ,but Nadal knows its wrong. When he was later fined him they specifically mentioned that part of their judgement was after listening to conversation between him and Toni picked up on the court and tv mikes... it's beyond dispute.........yet Nadal denied it which means he lied, and he continues to do it- which means he is breaking a major rule that he admits shouldn't be done. How can that be defended?

That was evident at the 2012 Australian Open final, the cameras followed it from the hand singles of Uncle Toni (he actually went down a few rows in the seating for a better vantage point and to transmit the signal) and then Nadal responding and getting more success. He almost won it.

That is why I am beginning to think that Nadal is a little like Murray in lacking a brain on court. Uncle Toni, the everpresent Uncle Toni, is the brain on the court. Murray needs Lendl - at least a chat before the match to settle him and think about approaches and tactics. Nadal has more fight than Murray on court (actually Murray needs to be told that he has to "fight" one ball at a time etc from Lendl).

Murray needs Lendl

he needs to stop offering up a dozen break points and a fast start is needed cause NoDjo is not gonna throw it away if he gets a break in front.

Good post Ruffin, I understand what you are saying and I don't have any problem with you finding this problem annoying or irritating or that it reflects badly on Nadal's sportsmanship. You have a right to your opinion. I think that it is mildly annoying. As a spectator I like the action to be sped up as well. It is like in basketball certain rules aren't enforced, like the travelling rule. When the agency charged with enforcing said written rule allows a little or a lot of wiggle room on the rules then the real meaning of the rule becomes more amorphous and a great deal of players take advantage. Yet, I don't want to come off as saying that any form of gamesmanship or conduct is valid at some point it goes from being gamesmanship to cheating. And as to your point as to coaching I constantly see it happening on the men's tour. The ATP needs to enforce the rule, but they have been letting certain hard and fast rules slide for so long so singling out Nadal alone when a lot of people know where they can push the enevelope doesn't get a lot of mileage from me.

TRuffin wrote:That's basically stealing a win from another player as Nadal on his own couldnt or wouldnt' adjust. That is not gamesmanship, that is cheating. I don't know any Nadal fan that even disputes it, they just say "oh, others do it, it's not a bid deal",etc.. and to me that's no excuse. Nadal in his position should be above it.

After this socal's reply is:

socal1976 wrote:Yet, I don't want to come off as saying that any form of gamesmanship or conduct is valid at some point it goes from being gamesmanship to cheating. And as to your point as to coaching I constantly see it happening on the men's tour.

Truffin, you already knew what his reply would be. Good one

Socal constantly sees on-court coaching happening on ATP men's tour. If its constantly happening we must be able to see it in almost all matches and with almost all players. If its constantly happening then I must hear commentators talk about it in almost every match involving almost every player. But I don't see it anyone other than Nadal. The only thing I constantly see those are the matches in which Nadal plays. He is the one more than anyone else has kept it going constantly for ATP mens tour. Thats the only time when I hear the commentators bring out this. I saw some occasional ones in WTA matches but those too are rare. So how did you constantly see it happening in ATP mens tour? Did everyone else other than you miss it every single time? Or by constantly seeing it on mens tour you mean Nadal constantly is seen?

This reminds me of an earlier post where he said tennis is neither very clean nor very dirty on veejay's thread. This is very poor comment. Blame everyone else for dirt-play so as to make Nadal appear clean.

socal1976 wrote:Good post Ruffin, I understand what you are saying and I don't have any problem with you finding this problem annoying or irritating or that it reflects badly on Nadal's sportsmanship. You have a right to your opinion. I think that it is mildly annoying. As a spectator I like the action to be sped up as well. It is like in basketball certain rules aren't enforced, like the travelling rule. When the agency charged with enforcing said written rule allows a little or a lot of wiggle room on the rules then the real meaning of the rule becomes more amorphous and a great deal of players take advantage. Yet, I don't want to come off as saying that any form of gamesmanship or conduct is valid at some point it goes from being gamesmanship to cheating. And as to your point as to coaching I constantly see it happening on the men's tour. The ATP needs to enforce the rule, but they have been letting certain hard and fast rules slide for so long so singling out Nadal alone when a lot of people know where they can push the enevelope doesn't get a lot of mileage from me.

I appreciate the honest respectful debate. As Raider noticed, and as I said was the most common response about the coaching- you don't feel Nadal should be signaled out alone becasue others do it........ Here is the diffference though- those other players are not creating a legacy that will rank among the historical best of all time. Nadal is one of the top players of all time and is a historicaly important player. In that sense, his cheating is more important and has to be a part of the conversation. How can he enter the Federer,Laver, Sampras level with this taint against his success that even his most ardent fans admit he is guilty of (but to them is just doens't matter)? It's the same reason why Barry Bonds being caught cheating with steroids is vastly more importnant than a good but not historically important player like Josh Hamilton being caught. The MLB basically ignores that Barry Bonds has the home run record now, and I bet 99 out 100 people do not credit him as beign the true homerun king and in the league of Aaron and Ruth-- because we now know his ability was aided by steroids. Bonds cheating is importnat becasue he is an important player. Same with Nadal... as good a player as lets say Ferrer is-- if he was coached and got away with it- in the end- it doens't really have a lasting impact. Nadal however plays for history- his cheating agianst Berdych which is obvious and was an absolute factor in Nadal winning impacts the history books. It could have prevented Federer from another Major, could have ended up allowed Nadal another major. This stuff matters because Nadal matters.. So no- Nadal isn't the only one who is coached- BUT- he is the only GOAT contender that even has a whiff of that on his resume.

I also find the "others do it" excuse as bizarre as anyone who is a parent knows this is the classic childs excuse that we have told our kids isn't a valid excuse. It's not. How many kids have said "well the teacher let so and so push kids around, so it was okay if I did" and we say "just becasue someone else does it, it's not okay". That's true in all aspects of life.... If you work in a business and your coworker is slipping $5 out of the register do you say "it's only $5, he's doing it, why not me?" Of course not. If people are looting during a storm, is it okay for you to loot to? Of course not.. So if some players are being coached from the stands, is it okay for Nadal to? No.

singling out Nadal alone when a lot of people know where they can push the enevelope doesn't get a lot of mileage from me.

Nadal profits more from his gamesmanship than anybody else in the history of the game, does that not make a difference to you then?

Of course not because I know you are in the oil industry and we know what people in that business are like (it's only cheating if you get caught).

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Of course not because I know you are in the oil industry and we know what people in that business are like (it's only cheating if you get caught).

Surprised that you are accusing a general class of all oil industry workers by that ill-founded statement. Guess the OPEC has not called a time violation yet?

I think Josiah it referring to the imminent strike action in the UK, might be wrong?