Maro Itoje?

First topic message reminder :

Apparently he was listed by Lancaster as one of the 63 players he considers to be Englands future and a possible for the 2015 world cup squad in his interview presentation for the England job.


Who?

Agree with Thomh - plus lock is possibly our strongest area.

But you never know what Lancaster is thinking. Itoje has started in the final for the English champions...so there isn't a better acknowledgment of his talent than that. He is a leader and blatantly one for the future - if not now.....and he covers 6 (as do Lawes, Launchbury and Parling)

And im sure you learn so much in a world cup competition. They may want him to experience that.

I suspect they'll take 4 locks. Three already set in stone - Launchbury, Lawes, Parling...and that leaves one more spot.

His competition for that spot:
Slater
Attwood
Kruis

Or they may be thinking he's currently more of a 6 so comp. of Wood, Haskell, Burgess, maybe even Vunipola, Easter move Robshaw over and have a Kvesic.

Very possible 7.5

It will be interesting to see what they decide on him. Would you take him.

I'm still the crazy one who'd take Burgess as a 6 and probably Slater as that 4th lock who can cover 6.

Im sure you can tell I want a monster of a guy as an option at lock, and I backed Attwood, sadly aside from a good defence he hasn't offered what I hoped he would ball in hand.

Possibly Slater could deliver that, its such a shame he got injured...we might have had the answer already.

But im not averse to the idea of Itoje going. Likewise if Burgess shows enough, then he's the type of player I have been asking for in the back row.

I just worry that Lancaster asks them to perform different roles than they should be doing..ie has Haskell looked bad because he isn't being allowed to just play beast mode...ie tackler and carrier which is what Burgess is similar.

Haskell is looking bad because he can't consistently deliver, the problem through his entire career.

Yeah I guess....such as shame.

Haskell looks bad whenever he is asked to make decisions about what he should be doing on the pitch, and has a track record of making poor ones.

Burgess, from what I have seen, has similar physical attributes but already looks to be making better decisions, somewhat giving the lie to the idea that union is a more difficult game than league. Either that, or he's remarkably good at picking up new skills.

On that basis alone, I would like to see him given a shot in a warm up game.

Poorfour wrote:Haskell looks bad whenever he is asked to make decisions about what he should be doing on the pitch, and has a track record of making poor ones.

Burgess, from what I have seen, has similar physical attributes but already looks to be making better decisions, somewhat giving the lie to the idea that union is a more difficult game than league. Either that, or he's remarkably good at picking up new skills.

On that basis alone, I would like to see him given a shot in a warm up game.

I think its probably more about the athlete in question rather than the difference between sports. The fact that so few RL players successfully transfer to RU does seem to indicate that there are often problems in learning the new game

Quite clearly Itoje is a favourite of coaches. Mccall has shown an awful lot of faith in Itoje.

Starting him in the away semi final vs Clermont, the away semi final vs Saints and the final vs Bath.

I don't think that Mccall would have done this if he didn't think he was good enough. Mccall is a relatively conservative coach. He could have picked Wray or Brown but he didn't.

Other youngsters have had a much tougher longer route to the big games yet Itoje has been fast tracked. Even Itoje's fellow 2nd row/flanker has had a much more gradual route - Kruis.

Lancaster put Itoje into the Saxons in the Autumn, since then he's worked his way into the starting line up of Saracens and he's in the 50 England squad.

This convinces me that the fast tracking of Itoje should continue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws1-cO0wYgk

Love this highlight from the Clermont vs Saracens game.

You could point that first part to Burgess as well though Slater is obviously a favourite. Going to be intertesting.

lostinwales wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Haskell looks bad whenever he is asked to make decisions about what he should be doing on the pitch, and has a track record of making poor ones.

Burgess, from what I have seen, has similar physical attributes but already looks to be making better decisions, somewhat giving the lie to the idea that union is a more difficult game than league. Either that, or he's remarkably good at picking up new skills.

On that basis alone, I would like to see him given a shot in a warm up game.

I think its probably more about the athlete in question rather than the difference between sports. The fact that so few RL players successfully transfer to RU does seem to indicate that there are often problems in learning the new game

Perhaps we should conclude from that that Haskell might be better suited to league!

beshocked wrote:
Lancaster put Itoje into the Saxons in the Autumn, since then he's worked his way into the starting line up of Saracens and he's in the 50 England squad.

This convinces me that the fast tracking of Itoje should continue.

I don't think anyone objects to him being fast-tracked, but the world cup will probably come too soon given the lack of experience in the squad as a whole already.

If its between Attwood, Slater, Kruis and Itoje, then bar Attwood none have any experience.

Go on ability and potential in this World Cup....not potential for 2 years time.  For me I want someone who can really carry well. As Attwood completely failed in that area in his recent games his chance is gone...and so that probably would mean its between Slater and Itoje. And of course we need to see what Form Slater has after his long term injury. Has it affected him?

GeordieFalcon wrote:If its between Attwood, Slater, Kruis and Itoje, then bar Attwood none have any experience.

Go on ability and potential in this World Cup....not potential for 2 years time.  For me I want someone who can really carry well. As Attwood completely failed in that area in his recent games his chance is gone...and so that probably would mean its between Slater and Itoje. And of course we need to see what Form Slater has after his long term injury. Has it affected him?

I honestly reckon Attwood has played himself out of contention. He had a brilliant opportunitiy to lay a marker down, and just simply didn't take it. He had some good games, but a couple of really poor ones. His discipline wasn't what it needs to be either. 

For me, Slater is the player that we all thought Attwood would be- an uncompromising physical presence.

GeordieFalcon wrote:If its between Attwood, Slater, Kruis and Itoje, then bar Attwood none have any experience.

Go on ability and potential in this World Cup....not potential for 2 years time.  For me I want someone who can really carry well. As Attwood completely failed in that area in his recent games his chance is gone...and so that probably would mean its between Slater and Itoje. And of course we need to see what Form Slater has after his long term injury. Has it affected him?

No chance for Kruis you reckon then?

I think Haskell needs to be left alone to play as a 6 - tell him to tackle, ruck and carry. Anything else is a bonus. Personally i reckon he's a vastly underrated player and probably the only player we have whose defense can keep players behind the gain line.

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If its between Attwood, Slater, Kruis and Itoje, then bar Attwood none have any experience.

Go on ability and potential in this World Cup....not potential for 2 years time.  For me I want someone who can really carry well. As Attwood completely failed in that area in his recent games his chance is gone...and so that probably would mean its between Slater and Itoje. And of course we need to see what Form Slater has after his long term injury. Has it affected him?

No chance for Kruis you reckon then?

I actually rate Kruis a lot, but hes quite similar in styles to what we have. I want to see our reserve lock as someone with a bit of explosiveness. I thought Attwood was the man...but as Eddie said above he failed completely in the chances he had.

Thus for me if Slater shows he's back to where he was before the injury it could be him...hes a huge carrier. But we just don't know how he would perform another level up.

Likewise Itoje is young, inexperienced, but he has that explosiveness. And he is also captain material and a U20 World Cup winner, and started in some massive games for Sarries this season...

I just feel that would push them ahead of Kruis for this WC.

But it'll be a difficult decision for Lancaster.

Hood83 wrote:I think Haskell needs to be left alone to play as a 6 - tell him to tackle, ruck and carry. Anything else is a bonus. Personally i reckon he's a vastly underrated player and probably the only player we have whose defense can keep players behind the gain line.

I think most would agree Hood.

But why is it that he was so immense V Wales then simply vanished for the rest of the tournament.

Did they ask him to play a different role...or is it simply he's inconsistent as many believe...and unable to play to the level we have seen in every game.

Did he really vanish, or is that an erroneous perception that has grown on the boards the more people say it?

Now while it is true that he carried more often and for further against Wales than any other side, it was the only match he played in full. hie did more defence work in all four other matches, despite less playing time.

He ran into the post. I'm not able to get away from that!

As usual it's all about Haskell. I actually think the post had anticipated the move and positioned itself perfectly. Credit where it's due, please.

Aye, the post just had a few more "little grey cells" than the player.

LondonTiger wrote:Did he really vanish, or is that an erroneous perception that has grown on the boards the more people say it?

Now while it is true that he carried more often and for further against Wales than any other side, it was the only match he played in full. hie did more defence work in all four other matches, despite less playing time.

So he tackled a lot in the last few games...we have numerous players who would fill that role. Matt Garvey is one of the best defensive players about...he could fill that role. Haskell was brought in for his power both in defence and more importantly his carrying...and we saw very little that. Was that his inconsistency or did the opposition nullify him?

Dave Attwood was excellent defensively but people feel he's missed his chance because he didn't bring the carrying game he has to this level.

Again we might be doing them a huge disjustice by not taking appreciating the massive jump in standards to international level...but i guess that's what us armchair pundits do.

Haskell will be in the WC squad i have no doubt about that.

Haskell was Englands secondary carrier, behind BillyV.

What we have to ask ourself is whether any one else would have done better. I am not a huge Haskell fan, but I do feel he is at times unfairly maligned. If we look at the likes of Marler, Mako, Launchburry, Robshaw and even Wood - they all, in differing ways, carry a lot and to good effect at club level. Yet we barely see them do it for England. either the game plan and/or the step up from the club game causes this. thus I tend to have doubts about others who shine at club level stepping up instead of these guys.

thomh wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:If its between Attwood, Slater, Kruis and Itoje, then bar Attwood none have any experience.

Go on ability and potential in this World Cup....not potential for 2 years time.  For me I want someone who can really carry well. As Attwood completely failed in that area in his recent games his chance is gone...and so that probably would mean its between Slater and Itoje. And of course we need to see what Form Slater has after his long term injury. Has it affected him?

No chance for Kruis you reckon then?

Ah, I didn't mean to omit Kruis from my response!

I think Kruis is a cracking player and were it not for England's sudden plethora of options, I reckon he would be a consistent starter. He had a superb Autumn campaign, and a very decent Six Nations. My only worry echoes Geordie's words, in that I think he's a very similar player to Launchbury or Parling. Slater stands apart because he is a bit more of a physical presence and really throws his weight around. Kruis is a superb athlete; fast, agile, strong, but I just feel Slater is more of a 'bruiser' and offers something unique in comparison. 

For what it is worth, this is how I currently see the England locks: 

1. Lawes
2. Launchbury 
3. Parling
4. Slater
5. Kruis
6. Attwood
7. Easter?? 

But this is how I think SL currently sees it: 

1. Lawes
2. Launchbury
3. Parling
4. Attwood
5. Kruis
6. Easter
7. Slater

It really is an embarrassment of riches at lock. What we could have done with a list like this at their current level in the last decade.

The good thing in my opinion is that there always appears to another on the horizon. You wouldn't want a glut of them playing well and then retiring together like Johnson, Grewcock and Kay so that you are left with nothing. Now you can look ahead to guys like Itoje, Ewells and Barrow once the current guys are drawing their pensions in the South of France.

Cumbrian wrote:... once the current guys are drawing their pensions in the South of France...

We have too many to give everyone a game, even at Saxons level, so it wouldn't be a surprise if one or two of them end up looking for a payday earlier in their career.

Cumbrian wrote:The good thing in my opinion is that there always appears to another on the horizon.  You wouldn't want a glut of them playing well and then retiring together like Johnson, Grewcock and Kay so that you are left with nothing.  Now you can look ahead to guys like Itoje, Ewells and Barrow Witty once the current guys are drawing their pensions in the South of France.

LondonTiger wrote:Haskell was Englands secondary carrier, behind BillyV.

What we have to ask ourself is whether any one else would have done better. I am not a huge Haskell fan, but I do feel he is at times unfairly maligned. If we look at the likes of Marler, Mako, Launchburry, Robshaw and even Wood - they all, in differing ways, carry a lot and to good effect at club level. Yet we barely see them do it for England. either the game plan and/or the step up from the club game causes this. thus I tend to have doubts about others who shine at club level stepping up instead of these guys.

Maybe its because we expect certain postions to do a certain job more than others.

Ie We all acknowledge that Marlers carrying is way down on what he has done for Quins...but he's a prop so we sort of make allowances if hes doing his basics well.

We expect backrowers to be carriers...so if they aren't doing it to a level we anticipate or expect (even if its unfair expectations) then they get criticised.

Haskell is the type of player I rate highly when he's on top form. He's explosive and powerful...he's the exact type of 6 i want playing for England...and he's the type of player everyone loves to watch. But he just can never get that consistently.

Yet we laud the back row of Hill, Back and Dayglo - only one player there we would deem a ball carrier.

Yes indeed.

For me it's not even his carrying which was the big issue but just felt his general play was a bit lacking. He wasn't awful but he wasn't as good as Wood has been. He was letting those niggly pens into his game as well.

For a player of his age and experience (he has 58 caps) he commits far too many stupid penalties. He never seems to have developed that clever (cynical) knack of knowing when you can get away with things.

Those dumb penalties are main reason i am not a fan.

I think it will be difficult squeezing Itoje into the final 31.  The general view is that Lawes, launchbury and Parling are in pole position at lock which leaves Kruis, Slater and Attwood to fight out the final berth plus of course Itoje.  Though I do have slight question mark about Parling?

Personally I would like to see Itoje tried in the backrow firs,t as it does booster the line-out capability, but I think the world cup will come too soon.  My fantasy backrow of Vunipola, Itoje and Burgess would be interesting to try.

cb wrote:I think it will be difficult squeezing Itoje into the final 31.  The general view is that Lawes, launchbury and Parling are in pole position at lock which leaves Kruis, Slater and Attwood to fight out the final berth plus of course Itoje.  Though I do have slight question mark about Parling?

Personally I would like to see Itoje tried in the backrow firs,t as it does booster the line-out capability, but I think the world cup will come too soon.  My fantasy backrow of Vunipola, Itoje and Burgess would be interesting to try.

I have also wondered why Parling is a cast iron place. Maybe because he knows the system so well and is the type Lancaster likes...hits every ruck etc.

As for your back row....leave the breakdown to the front 5 eh...

Re-Haskell

I could cope with the odd dumb penalty if he made up for it with a consistant rampaging game just hitting anything that moved hard and back over the gainline...and carrying the same way.
But we don't always get that. Its almost like his 'roids have worn off and he's going through the soft phase.....

I wouldn't have Parling there if I'm honest. Maybe this WC for the experience and lineout nous but I think Lawes, Launchbury, Slater, Kruis and Attwood are all better bets. He's a great all rounder, but we have a lot of great all-rounders and who I think all have at least one area superior to Parling.

I accept Haskell's standard isn't always right at the top, but the one reason I'd prefer him now to other 6 options is his tackling. He gets through a lot but he also is far better at stopping opposition momentum. Wood gets through a lot of tackles but always seems to concede ground

In my opinion Haskell did not deliver after the Wales game because he didn't bully the opposition. Sure he didn't do badly in the tackle stats but he wasn't as involved as Billy Vunipola for example who made plenty of tackles but also did a lot more carrying and made a lot more metres.

Billy showed you can have work rate and carrying power.

Geordiefalcon you're right. Haskell doesn't do enough of that.

I think whether we take Itoje depends on whether we intend to keep Launchbury at 4. He's not a great lineout jumper and wasn't used at all vs the Baabaas where Slater was very good and Beaumont didn't really get on the same wave length as LCD. Itoje would help with the options as he'd bring some serious height to the back row we miss with Croft injured.

I might be biased but Slater needs to go. He's a leader and the best physical all rounder we have. However, England have omitted last season's best lineout operator so I expect Lancaster to go for athletic locks. That helps Itoje I suppose as he's an incredible athlete.

Haskell will go due to his experience. Personally I thought he had a fair six nations and it was really only the brain farts that let him down. He's a liability but I think he'll be selected anyway. I feel neither Haskell nor Wood offer balance in our back row.

Sam you forget that Itoje is also a leader. He might be young but he's captained the U20s and this season he captained the Saracens A side. He's not just athletic, he's got a lot of power for a young man. He's not the finished article but so far he's making excellent progress. I think he's got the most potential out of all the options - it's why I want him picked. He has been thrown into tough challenges this season and overall he's done very well. He's proven his worth this season - certainly more so than Slater whose barely played this season. Is that unfair? Perhaps but you have to factor in what players have done.

Sure it helps that Itoje has been in a powerful pack but to get to start in that pack is not easy. Winning the faith of the coaches is obviously important for a player and Itoje has been doing that so far.

If Slater was tearing up the AP I might feel the way you do but he hasn't.

Oh and who should Kitchener go instead of in your opinion?

Wood will be that second jumper in the back row options. His work in the line-out was often brushed aside when he had a run in the side but he was consistently excellent there for us.

Especially in high pressure line-outs either on our own line or early in the game where we had a tendency to miss our marks. There was a period when every time we had that sort of throw in we would cut the numbers in the line down and put Wood at the front with two strong lifters. Everyone from both sides knew where the ball was going and hence Wood was always under pressure from another jumper but they just planted him there and backed him to get up in the air first and win the ball. Which I can't remember him failing to do in that situation.

Croft would be used in this role when fit as well.

Beshocked, I'm a big Itoje fan he's a leader and an incredible athlete but he's very raw. Slater had a good end to the season after a long time out. Remember he picked up said serious injury captaining the England mid week side in an all action display against the Crusaders. Slater had an excellent game against the Baabaas.

We should be looking to win the RWC or go as close as we can it's not a development tournament. Having Itoje is good to have in the initial squad but unless he can shine on the blindside in the pre tournament friendlies he doesn't make it for me.

I'd have had Kitchener on the bench in the Baabaas game ahead of Gaskell for starters. Get him in the camp and see how he goes. Personally I'd take him over Parling. Just as good at the line out but a mobile 19 stone work horse round the park.

Formerly known as Sam. Let's be honest how much can we really learn from a unimportant friendly like an under strength England vs a thrown together Barbarians team?

No it's not a development tournament but if we go by that logic then Slater shouldn't be involved either. He has no proper international experience either. Sure he's older than Itoje but so what? I want the best for England. Perhaps Slater is the man for the job but Attwood and Haskell were meant to deliver but did not. I think a Itoje has the potential to be special.

I think Itoje will get better and better. I personally don't see Slater doing the same.

I agree Kitchener instead of Gaskell. Yes they should have a look I guess but I don't see what he offers compared to the rest.

Parling at least had experience.

I think in a game like that you can probably learn more about a player like Slater, whose contribution is about technical and numerical output - lineouts, tackles, rucks hit etc - than you can about some like Wade, who is being assessed by defenders beaten and yards made against a ramshackle defence. Slater'so performance is not quite so determined by the preparedness of the opposition.

The real star forward of the Barbarians game was Clifford but that's a separate issue.

When I watch Itoje I always think he looks a little small for a lock (height and size), although the stats say he's 6'5"??

I think he'd be better off staying at 6 where he's looked impressive for Sarries.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:When I watch Itoje I always think he looks a little small for a lock (height and size), although the stats say he's 6'5"??

I think he'd be better off staying at 6 where he's looked impressive for Sarries.

What is he, 20 years old? He's going to get quite a lot bulkier I reckon.

Even as he is, he's shown he can live at the a high level as a lock already. I think SL really rates him, and that consequently the 3rd and 4th locks will be a very tight call.

Has he actually played much at lock?

He's obviously going to get bigger but I'm on about the here and now.