Bob Carruthers wants another go
+3
funnyExiledScot
21st Century Schizoid Man
12345678910
7 posters
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
Page 1 of 1
Bob Carruthers wants another go
Bob Carruthers: Ready to take on Edinburgh Rugby again
By DAVID FERGUSON
Published on Wednesday 28 March 2012 02:12
FORMER Edinburgh Rugby owner Bob Carruthers insists that he has the desire and funds to take on the capital side again, or re-launch the Caledonia Reds, five years after his previous involvement ended in acrimony.
The 51-year-old businessman from Kirkcaldy, who made his money from the music, film and media business, was the only entrepreneur entertained by the SRU after Gordon McKie took over as chief executive in 2005 and looked to introduce private investors. McKie handed Edinburgh over to the consortium in 2006, and it was initially a success, with crowds rising. However, it collapsed after just a season, and it quickly emerged that the improvement of the team and crowds came against a backdrop of continual bickering between the new Edinburgh owners and the SRU over the contract and payments.
It ended with a bitter public feud as Edinburgh agreed ultimately futile terms with Stephen Larkham, the Wallaby internationalist, while threatening court action and withdrawing existing Edinburgh internationalists from Scotland’s pre-World Cup training. Chris Paterson left the club as a result, joining Gloucester, and others threatened to quit before the SRU stepped in to reclaim ownership of the team with a pay-off to the consortium.
Now, Carruthers has launched a book termed The Murrayfield Experience in which his complaints about the SRU’s handling of the affair appear in print, but with no author claiming responsibility for the content.As the book was launched, yesterday, Carruthers’ assertion that he could return to professional rugby in Scotland was more intriguing. The obvious question was ‘why?’ after he had experienced so much pain and, he stated, lost over £1m in the last venture. “I regret everything about it,” he admitted, reflecting on the 2006-7 involvement. “It was a very, very rushed agreement, done over one night, but we had the benefit of a cast-iron guarantee that if anything went wrong the SRU would pay.
“But we have a fantastic, exciting game, and I would like to see the game build in Scotland because I know it can be done. There is passion there from people and we’re still passionate about it. I would also like to see the Borders back because that’s the one heartland where rugby is the first game, not the second, and it’s atrocious how the SRU dealt with that.”
Carruthers insists he has backers and the funds to take on a pro side again, but if that is his intent why would he endorse a book which rehashes the bitter feud of five years ago rather than look to cultivate a positive relationship with the SRU? “When you take on Scottish rugby there are some pretty heavy forces arraigned against you, but I think I would wrong if I just shut up and said ‘that’s fine, you can conduct the game this way’, because every time I go back to Kirkcaldy [Rugby Club] they’re skint,” said Carruthers.
“More than half a billion pounds has come into SRU PLC since 1991 and we should have the best clubhouses, the best facilities, the best everything, and the guys are ending up being net-payers into it [Scottish rugby]. There has to be a balance, but the best way to achieve the balance where you get money back to the clubs is when you shoulder the burden of the professional game among entrepreneurs. It can be done because it’s done in Wales, it’s done in Ireland, it’s done in England and in France.”
Irish rugby is almost entirely funded by the IRFU, the extra coming from sponsors and the provinces’ own income generation, while Wales regions are split between WRU and entrepreneurs and English and French clubs largely funded by entrepreneurs. “I don’t think they [the SRU] are deliberatey taking the game down,” he added, “but the trajectory we’re on isn’t a good one. We’ve only got two teams and we’re 12th in the world rankings so there has to be a way to work the professional game with the club game and stop us from sliding off the scale.”
McKie’s successor, Mark Dodson, has pledged since taking over last September to re-open the commercial markets and take a more pro-active approach to sponsorship and courting investors, which is why he agreed to meet Carruthers in December.
Carruthers returned to Murrayfield for the meeting with Dodson, attended also by Ian McLauchlan, the SRU President, director of communications Dominic McKay and Graham Ireland, the SRU PLC company secretary. He suggested yesterday that he then made known his interest in becoming an investor again but The Scotsman understands that Dodson left the meeting unaware that that extended to taking on Edinburgh or re-launching a third pro team. Carruthers said that he had the backing to do that, at a budget of around £3-£4m, swelled by the £2m approximately that the SRU receive from Heineken Cup and RaboDirect competition.
The SRU insisted Dodson had not turned down any advance from Carruthers, believing no advance had been made, and reiterated they were interested in outside investment.
Dodson has met with several interested investors and new sponsors in recent weeks, but does not appear to be closer to unearthing the serious players to take on one of the existing professional teams or launch a new one.
If this is true it could be excellent although I'm not too about what Carruthers is like, because I didn't pay too much attention last time, I'd prefer him to start a new team rather than take one on therefore if he messes things up we'll still have two teams on the downside it would mean the one district without a pro team would be the borders which is ridiculous unless they were restarted as well, I think that might be too much and I'm not sure if we have enough players currently, Edinburgh are struggling already squad depth wise and so we'd need 10-15 foreigners in each squad but there'd still be about 80-100 Scots would be involved in rugby around Europe.
12345678910- Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-03-28
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
Bob is a serious nutter !
21st Century Schizoid Man- Posts : 3564
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Glasgow
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
Bit of both - likes a shandy or 2 IYKWIM !
21st Century Schizoid Man- Posts : 3564
Join date : 2011-05-31
Location : Glasgow
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
Well I suppose if he starts a new club with other investors not much could go wrong and it wouldn't cost the SRU a single penny, I'd say that if we get 1 or 2 more pro-teams we should sign up a few u18s and u20s as well as the top players from the premiership plus 10-15 foreigners including two big names like Brad Thorn with Leinster or Doug Howlett with Munster.
12345678910- Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-03-28
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
He'd need a lot of money and need to be prepared to lose all of it. It's not really viable as a business in the short term, and whilst I'm sure there are longer term possibilities, it'll need to be a labour of love.
The other big question is whether the Rabo12 and European competitions would let another Scottish team play. They could well question the current crowds at Glasgow and Edinburgh and ask whether a third region would be well enough supported to make it viable.
There are a few players at Edinburgh and Glasgow who are probably surplus to requirements: Forrester, Verbackel, Dewey, Houston, MacDonald, Horne etc. and obviously the new region could have priority over a few of the kids coming through the ranks, but it'll hardly fill the gates at a new club. Even if you can persuade a few exiles to come back: Ansbro, Walker, S Lawson, Strokosch et al, I still think the side would struggle to be competitive. Probably another job for Sean Lineen.
Not sure we'd be able to attract big names either. Leinster and Munster are perhaps in a slightly different position.
I'd love it to happen, don't get me wrong, but buying Edinburgh and creating a new side are two different jobs. I don't know enough about Carruthers and his pockets to make a solid judgment, but he'll need deep pocket for it to be a success.
The other big question is whether the Rabo12 and European competitions would let another Scottish team play. They could well question the current crowds at Glasgow and Edinburgh and ask whether a third region would be well enough supported to make it viable.
There are a few players at Edinburgh and Glasgow who are probably surplus to requirements: Forrester, Verbackel, Dewey, Houston, MacDonald, Horne etc. and obviously the new region could have priority over a few of the kids coming through the ranks, but it'll hardly fill the gates at a new club. Even if you can persuade a few exiles to come back: Ansbro, Walker, S Lawson, Strokosch et al, I still think the side would struggle to be competitive. Probably another job for Sean Lineen.
Not sure we'd be able to attract big names either. Leinster and Munster are perhaps in a slightly different position.
I'd love it to happen, don't get me wrong, but buying Edinburgh and creating a new side are two different jobs. I don't know enough about Carruthers and his pockets to make a solid judgment, but he'll need deep pocket for it to be a success.
funnyExiledScot- Posts : 17072
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 43
Location : Edinburgh
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
Hypothetically, if it were to be announced tomorrow they should wait 2-3 years in which time they should advertise, set-up the infrastructure, put in an academy and start setting money aside fir big signings etc. They should also organise and sort everything with the SRU. They should be able to get a team/ teams into the Rabo and a team in the Amlin.
The money will obviously be a problem; I read somewhere that it takes £3-4 million to run a half decent pro team, if it happens the SRU should take 10 percent, as should the clubs of that district, 20% should be owned by local businessmen and the rest split proportionally between the investors therefore, to an extent, each person's needs would be met.
The money will obviously be a problem; I read somewhere that it takes £3-4 million to run a half decent pro team, if it happens the SRU should take 10 percent, as should the clubs of that district, 20% should be owned by local businessmen and the rest split proportionally between the investors therefore, to an extent, each person's needs would be met.
12345678910- Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-03-28
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
I remember the Carruthers incident and it was very messy with a lot of bad blood. I remember a lot of kick up about it because if this deal stuck the Boarders would have probably have survived, for a while longer at least.
I think it would do no harm for Scottish rugby to have a third side, especially if someone is willing to throw their own money at it. There are plenty of exiles out there and a few young prospects that could fit into a new team, not to mention the fringe players of the two existing sides and a southern hemisphere guys who may want to come in,and maybe even become Scottish.
Be no harm done really, except maybe a rich guy not being as rich. Only help Scottish rugby in my opinion. Especially if the team can be put into an area were could grow like Aberdeen or the likes.
I guess the best approach would be like the one mentioned above involving a strategy based over a 2-3 years. A process of developing academy players, a fan base and of course the infrastructure.
I think it would do no harm for Scottish rugby to have a third side, especially if someone is willing to throw their own money at it. There are plenty of exiles out there and a few young prospects that could fit into a new team, not to mention the fringe players of the two existing sides and a southern hemisphere guys who may want to come in,and maybe even become Scottish.
Be no harm done really, except maybe a rich guy not being as rich. Only help Scottish rugby in my opinion. Especially if the team can be put into an area were could grow like Aberdeen or the likes.
I guess the best approach would be like the one mentioned above involving a strategy based over a 2-3 years. A process of developing academy players, a fan base and of course the infrastructure.
JayMaster3000- Posts : 214
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
As long has it isn't hugely detrimental to Edinburgh or Glasgow then it is a win win situation, on the downside Edinburgh have no strength in depth and a third team would make it worse, if we change the pro-team structure now then we should change the grassroots rugby after.
12345678910- Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-03-28
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
Would it really work? We'd end up like the Welsh and squabbling about players not being released and not enough money being given to them by the SRU. Actually - was that not what happened last time round by Carruthers?!?!?
The most successful new pro teams are regionally run but (part) centrally funded - look at Leinster and the Irish mob or the Super Rugby teams.
The SRU are on the right track now (with a few hiccups) - more funding is being pumped (playing budget up to £4.2m according to todays Scotsman) in as they see that success at regional level will increase playing and spectator numbers. The Irish maybe moaning (they have the best setup) at the moment but the Leinster / Munster model is the way to go.
The most successful new pro teams are regionally run but (part) centrally funded - look at Leinster and the Irish mob or the Super Rugby teams.
The SRU are on the right track now (with a few hiccups) - more funding is being pumped (playing budget up to £4.2m according to todays Scotsman) in as they see that success at regional level will increase playing and spectator numbers. The Irish maybe moaning (they have the best setup) at the moment but the Leinster / Munster model is the way to go.
Last edited by cp10 on Thu 29 Mar 2012, 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
cp10- Posts : 286
Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Shit stirring somewhere
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
I think a third Private team is a great Idea.
hink if there was a 3rd private team part funded by the SRU etc like a Welsh region, if they had existed a few years ago, and we're constanstly the number 1 Scottish side the SRU would have had to put more funding toward Glasgow and Edinburgh to have them compete with the 3rd side.
A private side would push the 2 SRU sides, competation for H-cup places would maybe push the other two on as well, keeps themm honest.
As long as before they are launched the player release agreements are in place, and the number of NSQ over the next 5 years and penelties for exceeding this are all agreed, and signed by all parties, it could only be a good idea.
hink if there was a 3rd private team part funded by the SRU etc like a Welsh region, if they had existed a few years ago, and we're constanstly the number 1 Scottish side the SRU would have had to put more funding toward Glasgow and Edinburgh to have them compete with the 3rd side.
A private side would push the 2 SRU sides, competation for H-cup places would maybe push the other two on as well, keeps themm honest.
As long as before they are launched the player release agreements are in place, and the number of NSQ over the next 5 years and penelties for exceeding this are all agreed, and signed by all parties, it could only be a good idea.
Kingshu- Posts : 4127
Join date : 2011-05-30
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
True but I think Edinburgh/Glasgow should be partially private ie.
25% SRU
25% Clubs from the District
10% Local businesses
40% Investors
as well as a completely private team in the Borders who according to a few things I've read didn't catch on last time because they felt there weren't enough Borderers playing and it was being run from Murrayfield not locally, if their is a new team made their eventually it should have complete autonomy with a small amount of funding perhaps just any money they receive from the HC or league position.
Let Bob Carruthers do his thing with Caledonia reds and we should be ok!
25% SRU
25% Clubs from the District
10% Local businesses
40% Investors
as well as a completely private team in the Borders who according to a few things I've read didn't catch on last time because they felt there weren't enough Borderers playing and it was being run from Murrayfield not locally, if their is a new team made their eventually it should have complete autonomy with a small amount of funding perhaps just any money they receive from the HC or league position.
Let Bob Carruthers do his thing with Caledonia reds and we should be ok!
12345678910- Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-03-28
Re: Bob Carruthers wants another go
Here's the Herald's take on it:
Strange tale of Bob Carruthers and the others
by Alasdair Reid, Rugby reporter.
Bob Carruthers would not be the first rugby follower to cook up a daft wheeze in the Roseburn Bar, but it would be wrong to suppose that the idea that took shape in his mind in the celebrated Edinburgh watering hole on the last evening of May 2006 was entirely the product of the pints he was pouring past his tonsils.
By the time he had left the Roseburn that night, Carruthers had decided he would bid to take over the running of Edinburgh Rugby club. The influence of drink cannot be completely discounted, but as Carruthers' other business interests have embraced such disparate ventures as producing a film called Zombie Driftwood – "a surreal combination of zombies, paradisiacal beaches, heavy metal music, Hitler, beer and bagpipes" according to one review – and writing a history of the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band, he is clearly not the sort of fellow for whom sobriety is any sort of constraint.
Carruthers, in cahoots with his younger brother Alex, famously tied up the Edinburgh takeover in record time.
Or rather, he famously didn't tie things up at all, for the deal he negotiated with the former SRU chief executive Gordon McKie was a mass of loose ends, and they started to unravel almost as soon as he moved his backroom team into collection of Portakabins that served as Edinburgh's offices at the time.
Within a few months, the rows between Carruthers and McKie were public knowledge, with claims and counterclaims being made by both sides as they battled over competition revenues, gate receipts and, well, just about anything else they could think of.
An almighty stushie then erupted when, early in 2007, the union pulled the plug on the Border Reivers, and the Holly Wilaboobie-for-tat spatting was taken to another level soon afterwards when Carruthers barred Edinburgh players from taking part in Scotland's World Cup training camp.
From a distance it seemed that McKie and Carruthers made them thoroughly incompatible bedfellows all along, and that their hasty marriage of inconvenience was always destined to end in messy divorce. The alimony details were not made public at the time – August 2007 – but Carruthers' account of the settlement is that the union, through its subsidiary The Murrayfield Experience Ltd (TME), would buy back the team for the sum of £250,000.
In truth, for all that the rugby media feasted on the flamboyance of Carruthers at the time, McKie probably considered it good value to stump up a quarter of a mil just to be rid of the guy.
Generally speaking, Carruthers had made himself about as welcome as an outbreak of scrum pox at the headquarters of Scottish rugby, and you could almost hear the sighs of relief when the dalliance was finally over.
Except, of course, that Carruthers does going quietly like Simon Cowell does self-effacing modesty. Which is how it came to be that the 51-year-old media mogul – Carruthers, not Cowell – was yesterday holding court in an Edinburgh hotel, still fighting the fight that most of us thought had been settled five years ago.
Officially, the occasion was the launch of his book, The Murrayfield Experience, which boasts the intriguing subtitle Inside the Sex Rats' Union - Or rather, the launch of the book to which he has contributed a foreword, the principal author being one AN Alikadoo, a name previously unknown in the canon of modern Scottish literature.
"I polished it up," was the most Carruthers was prepared to say about his involvement, claiming that the real author simply wanted to keep himself out of the legal line of fire should the war break out again.
Carruthers' main beef with the SRU was that they used The Murrayfield Experience – the company, not the book – as the vehicle for taking the Edinburgh team back under their wing.
Now I'm prepared to admit that a gathering of Scottish rugby hacks does not exactly bristle with great legal minds of our time, but in the grand scheme of things it still seemed like rather a recondite point. Carruthers subsequently claimed that TME-filed accounts suggested that it was effectively dormant. Again, the subterfuge being hinted at was not exactly clear.
Conspiracy theories aside, any audience with Barking Bob is likely to be an entertaining affair, even if enlightenment does not figure on the menu. And with due allowances made for the fact that his opinions are bound to be coloured by personal grievance, he did make some good points about the overall shape of the Scottish game. Specifically, he highlighted the fact that the money that is currently gobbled up by two professional teams is money that could be better spent fostering interest at the game's grass roots.
"What we've lost sight of is that the clubs are the stakeholders in the Scottish Rugby Union," he explained. "Our clubs are struggling and not getting the money that they should. Rugby is an incredibly fortunate sport in that £20m-£30m pounds per year pours into the kitty, but our club game doesn't get its share.
"More money for the clubs is one way of getting more people playing. To do that you have to shift the burden of professional rugby off the shoulders of the clubs.
"That's what we were about back in 2007, although it didn't work for various reasons."
Perhaps the bizarrest twist to all of this is that Carruthers says he would do it all over again. Indeed, he claimed that he has already held an exploratory meeting with Mark Dodson, who last year replaced McKie at the SRU, with a view to bringing private investors back into the professional game.
Carruthers suggested that the avenue could be to again take over at Edinburgh, or to open a new franchise further north – probably Perth – effectively reviving the Caledonia Reds. The union's line, Carruthers explained, is that they want to hold station with the two professional sides under central ownership, for a couple of years at least. Then again, with lawyers' letters flying back and forth between the two parties, and with Carruthers having just dropped off a large file on the TME affair with Lothian and Borders Police, it is perhaps understandable that they should be cautious in their dealings with the man.
More's the pity. They just don't know what fun they could be having.
AsLongAsBut100ofUs- Posts : 14129
Join date : 2011-03-26
Age : 112
Location : Devon/London
The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
Page 1 of 1
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum