Black Clouds forming over Wales

Why on earth are we allowing Gatland to take the Lions job? The last time we did this it was a complete car crash. Henry lost his dressing room, effectively having to implicitly tell core members of his Wales team that he felt players from other countries were actually better than them. It is impossible having done so to then expect them to play for you with the same passion and confidence.

Taking on such a role by its very nature, means that you have to undermine some of your players and shatter the confidence and team spirit you have created. This is a team with a lot of growing to do, why pour weed killer all over it.

It is folly on behalf of the WRU and plain vanity on the behalf of Gatland. The WRU has a self-harming habit that requires psychiatric help

If the players do not have self belief in their own abilities then we have no hope in hell in taking on the better sides of this world.
The squad we have now are professional rugby players with a professional attitude they know full well that they will not be selected unless they are the best in their position.
They wont get selected to play for Wales let alone the Lions if they are that brittle.

Could be worse. Could be that total t0**er Woodward.

Very different mentality of player between 1998 and 2012. I dont think the players will have an issue.

Gatland certainly wont.

dragonbreath wrote:Why on earth are we allowing Gatland to take the Lions job? The last time we did this it was a complete car crash. Henry lost his dressing room, effectively having to implicitly tell core members of his Wales team that he felt players from other countries were actually better than them. It is impossible having done so to then expect them to play for you with the same passion and confidence.

Taking on such a role by its very nature, means that you have to undermine some of your players and shatter the confidence and team spirit you have created. This is a team with a lot of growing to do, why pour weed killer all over it.

It is folly on behalf of the WRU and plain vanity on the behalf of Gatland. The WRU has a self-harming habit that requires psychiatric help

What you really mean there is, that there will be an outcry in de Vaalleys, when Wales dont dominate the team (they wont) and throw their rattles out of the pram. As in 2005. And diss the very man who gave them 2 x SLAM's and made them the best International side in Europe.

But dont lose it now man.

Give it some more time to lose it. Build up some steam, for when the Irish, English & Scots, make more in-roads into the XV.

What I didn't realise was that the lions are insisting that whoever takes the job will not be in charge of any home nations side in the 6N 2013.... and maybe even the AIs.

That would seriously hinder Wales coming into a Lions year... to lose your coach who literally turned the team around could become a nightmare.

I read that Howley & McBride would become interim coaches in his absence.

Are the Welsh fans ok with this????

Why would it seriously hinder Wales ? this is just guessing games.

Cymroglan wrote:If the players do not have self belief in their own abilities then we have no hope in hell in taking on the better sides of this world.
The squad we have now are professional rugby players with a professional attitude they know full well that they will not be selected unless they are the best in their position.
They wont get selected to play for Wales let alone the Lions if they are that brittle.

I have to believe that you believe what you have written but it seem naive in the extreme. People are people; confidence can be shattered no matter who you are or how professional you think you are.

The confidence the boys have is significantly enhanced by the environment and culture that Gatland has created, and is one in which they have been almost completely immersed for most of the part 12months . Taking a lump of clay and moulding it into an object is one thing, gluing it back together once broken is quite another. It is neither as strong or as perfect

Let me ask you; if the psychology of the player is not a factor in elite performance then why is so much time and money spent upon nurturing it?

Even if you are right (and we clearly disagree on this) why take the bloody risk

This Welsh side is made up of a mature core of players. I'm sure they'll know better than take offence if Gatland favours their English/Irish/Scottish counterparts in some cases. On the contrary, they'll take it as a clear indication that there is still room for improvement and will work towards just that. That is my belief. Have faith in the boys for a change

The management's job is to find the best man for head coach and the coach's job is pick the best available side. Everyone should know this, even the Welsh players.

It will be intersting when the team for Lions is chosen, who will choose the team? Will it be Gatland.

Will he choose a team that (ALL the players)are on form? Or will it be on reputation?

what to lose your coach? Your figurehead.

This is the man who took over the job in perhaps one of your lowest periods in memory and took them to GS glory in the same year.

The boks had some of the best players in the world between 08-11 yet with PDV bar 09 the boks looked completely at sea... just shows what happens when a team is lead by an ineffective coach. In every other year bar 09 they came last in the 3N... with the talent they had they should have won at least 1 and probably 2 more.

Being a good number two does not mean you will can handle the top job (see Andy Robinson).

The OP has a strong point. It WILL affect Wales.

But, as 30,000 of the last Lions Tour fans were Welsh*, what are the Welsh fans feelings/loyalties on this one? Its a compliment. But. Are they happy about it?

* Bread Of Heaven was belted out by half the crowd in SA. Wales love and support the Lions more than any other Home Nation. By miles. It has long History.

dragondbreath in a sense I understand your view on this. But you do accept that Gatland cannot take the whole welsh squad?

Now if Gatland is going to take around 45 players, then it would mean a good chunk of the 15 best Welshman would make the squad.

The rest of the players who are usually not the starters in the team already has the perception and mindset that they are either impact subs or not the best in their position.

The reality is Gatland of the four home unio coaches are the obvious candidate.

Their is a price to pay for this success, in gatland's case the honour of coaching a Lions team is huge, every four years this situation presents itself where the coach has to make this decision, and it is inevitabe that a handful of first choice players might not go, although I doubt it will be more than 2 or three.

They will just have to deal with it, but I do not believe it is as negative as you think.

Gibson

"What you really mean there is, that there will be an outcry in de Vaalleys, when Wales dont dominate the team (they wont) and throw their rattles out of the pram. As in 2005."

Oh yeh, and we all remember what a great strategy ignoring players who had demonstated form and confidence turned out to be

biltongbek

I think the squad has to be 30 only... has been for the last couple of tours no?

Sort of makes it difficult for anyone to have more than 15.. esp. given both IRE & ENG are snapping at WAL heels... its going to be a very competitive tour.

Knowsit17 wrote:This Welsh side is made up of a mature core of players. I'm sure they'll know better than take offence if Gatland favours their English/Irish/Scottish counterparts in some cases. On the contrary, they'll take it as a clear indication that there is still room for improvement and will work towards just that. That is my belief. Have faith in the boys for a change

The management's job is to find the best man for head coach and the coach's job is pick the best available side. Everyone should know this, even the Welsh players.

FA just checked 2009 was 37 players.

Smack dab in the middle.

but wasn't that after injury?

actually you're right.

They actually announced a 37 man squad on 21 april 2009, and then there after there were replacement s for injuries.

dragonbreath wrote:Gibson

"What you really mean there is, that there will be an outcry in de Vaalleys, when Wales dont dominate the team (they wont) and throw their rattles out of the pram. As in 2005."

Oh yeh, and we all remember what a great strategy ignoring players who had demonstated form and confidence turned out to be

Please don't mention Henson. Please dont.

Thank God Wales have left all that sheet behind. Even Phillips is behaving better than Care now. Its all about the Team. And our collective choice of Captain - Warburton, represents it beautifully.

Be proud.

The lads have just won a hard fought GS and the negativity is already starting to creep in from some quarters.
This is the most professional Welsh side that I have ever seen ( Car Park fees did not count ) and for that reason I believe they are mature enough to know that they will need to be on top of their game to be selected to represent the Lions.
Several of the squad are young enough to be on another couple of Lions tours even if they are not selected for this one

biltongbek wrote:dragondbreath in a sense I understand your view on this. But you do accept that Gatland cannot take the whole welsh squad?

Now if Gatland is going to take around 45 players, then it would mean a good chunk of the 15 best Welshman would make the squad.

The rest of the players who are usually not the starters in the team already has the perception and mindset that they are either impact subs or not the best in their position.

The reality is Gatland of the four home unio coaches are the obvious candidate.

Their is a price to pay for this success, in gatland's case the honour of coaching a Lions team is huge, every four years this situation presents itself where the coach has to make this decision, and it is inevitabe that a handful of first choice players might not go, although I doubt it will be more than 2 or three.

They will just have to deal with it, but I do not believe it is as negative as you think.

Your point only reafirms my belief regarding the negative impact non selection will have upon this young team. You are right, he can't take them all and that is the problem. He shouldn't be allowed to put himself in a position where he has to make such public declarations of his opinions of the merits of one player against another. We pay his wages and his loyalty should be to us. THERE IS NO UPSIDE FOR WALES.

The reason the study of history is important, is so that we may ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. As referenced in the OP the, Henry, Lions, Wales, love triangle ended in disaster, especially for us yet we are about to repeat the very same mistake. BONEHEADED but thats the WRU for you

Henry had lost the dressing room before the Lions tour.

In total there were 45 players including those replaced for inury and the newcomers.


2009 Lions squad

dragonbreath wrote:Your point only reafirms my belief regarding the negative impact non selection will have upon this young team. You are right, he can't take them all and that is the problem. He shouldn't be allowed to put himself in a position where he has to make such public declarations of his opinions of the merits of one player against another. We pay his wages and his loyalty should be to us. THERE IS NO UPSIDE FOR WALES.

The reason the study of history is important, is so that we may ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. As referenced in the OP the, Henry, Lions, Wales, love triangle ended in disaster, especially for us yet we are about to repeat the very same mistake. BONEHEADED but thats the WRU for you

Surely you don't expect him to say no to this honour?

fa0019 wrote:What I didn't realise was that the lions are insisting that whoever takes the job will not be in charge of any home nations side in the 6N 2013.... and maybe even the AIs.

That would seriously hinder Wales coming into a Lions year... to lose your coach who literally turned the team around could become a nightmare.

I read that Howley & McBride would become interim coaches in his absence.

Are the Welsh fans ok with this????

As long as Shaun Edwards stays, I can't see there being a huge problem. They will continue the work Gatland has been doing - he should only miss the 6N after all (I really hope he doesn't miss the AIs)

He hasn't taken the offer yet. Time with the welsh squad is the pressing issue.

Shaun Edwards will be available the rest of the Lions coaches get together after the 6N

I was under the impression that it's not just Gatland who selected the touring squad

It will be interesting to see what effect it does have, Gatland not being there for the 6N next year.

I can't remember an International side going through a major championship without their Head Coach - can anyone?

I guess it will be a revealing glimpse into the level of input and impact the Head Coach actually makes.

I have to say, however, I'm glad it's Wales experimenting with it not us

Personally i don't want Gatland to go. We need to build on this year and with Howley at the helm next year we won't do that. As much as i love the Lions, i don't care about them half as much as i do Wales.

dragonbreath wrote:The reason the study of history is important, is so that we may ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. As referenced in the OP the, Henry, Lions, Wales, love triangle ended in disaster, especially for us yet we are about to repeat the very same mistake.

For such a keen student of history, you seem not to know that Gatland was on the Lions' coaching team in 2009. You can't cite one precedent that suits your theory and ignore a more relevant one that knocks your theory flat.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:The reason the study of history is important, is so that we may ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. As referenced in the OP the, Henry, Lions, Wales, love triangle ended in disaster, especially for us yet we are about to repeat the very same mistake.

For such a keen student of history, you seem not to know that Gatland was on the Lions' coaching team in 2009. You can't cite one precedent that suits your theory and ignore a more relevant one that knocks your theory flat.

What are you on about Gatland was not the head coach. [Insult removed - KRD]

biltongbek wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Your point only reafirms my belief regarding the negative impact non selection will have upon this young team. You are right, he can't take them all and that is the problem. He shouldn't be allowed to put himself in a position where he has to make such public declarations of his opinions of the merits of one player against another. We pay his wages and his loyalty should be to us. THERE IS NO UPSIDE FOR WALES.

The reason the study of history is important, is so that we may ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. As referenced in the OP the, Henry, Lions, Wales, love triangle ended in disaster, especially for us yet we are about to repeat the very same mistake. BONEHEADED but thats the WRU for you

Surely you don't expect him to say no to this honour?

I expect the WRU to enforce his contract and for him to dedicate his time to Wales not to satisfying some personal ambition. Personally I don't think that unreasonable

Thats going to dent your 2015 RWC bid for glory!

I think it will have an effect on Wales. Particularly as that I would say Wales are on form just now due to team momentum and spirit.

I do not think wales will have players in the lions starting XV in the following positions:

Hooker
1 if not both 2nd rows
8
9
10
15

and possibly 13

That is half of the team. which mens half of the Wales team couple possibly become de-jected. There are welsh players who are not stand out performers who are alone in being the "best" in thier position. Where Wales's sucess comes from (in my opinion) is the sprit as a team and that they work together well as a unit.

This could (only could) hurt Wales, as it would if any other county's manager was the Lions manager.

Least of all The lions coach is basically going to have a year out from continuing to imrove his side. That is a large chuck of time that would do any country harm!

I would like to offer my heartfelt and wholehearted thanks to Wales for sabotaging their RWC build up for the sake of the Lions tour

dragonbreath wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Your point only reafirms my belief regarding the negative impact non selection will have upon this young team. You are right, he can't take them all and that is the problem. He shouldn't be allowed to put himself in a position where he has to make such public declarations of his opinions of the merits of one player against another. We pay his wages and his loyalty should be to us. THERE IS NO UPSIDE FOR WALES.

The reason the study of history is important, is so that we may ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated. As referenced in the OP the, Henry, Lions, Wales, love triangle ended in disaster, especially for us yet we are about to repeat the very same mistake. BONEHEADED but thats the WRU for you

Surely you don't expect him to say no to this honour?

I expect the WRU to enforce his contract and for him to dedicate his time to Wales not to satisfying some personal ambition. Personally I don't think that unreasonable

I agree though the WRU have said how they see the Lions role as beneficial to Wales should Gatland be coach. But they have strongly stipulated that they want him available for the AI campaign.

That will be the dividing factor in his decision whether or not to accept.


Personally I don't mind either way as long as if he is coach that he does look after the AIs, or that as long as whoever else the Lions choose is a talented coach as well.

Joe Schmitd would be a great second choice.

If you win a Slam, and your coaching one of the 'Home' nations then it's natural that your coach might get headhunted for a big job going down at the Lions. It's a very real possibility that shouldn't have been overlooked by the Welsh populace as they enjoyed the 6N trip. But I think the Welsh did expect it, probably boasted about it a little, kinda wanted him to be asked to do it, were chuffed that The Lions want him ....but NO, he shouldn't go! So what? Choose a lesser coach, have his Lions capitulate and have the Welsh fans moaning that their man should have got/taken the job as he was really the only coach up to the task?

Next: Gatland himself. Has he ambition? Of course he has. He hasn't signed his soul over to Wales. He's a career coach in motion and his ambitions haven't dulled by taking Wales to his second Slam with them. He has his own wishes and future plans and Wales aren't given authority over them. So it's a natural that Gatland wants the Lions job and if offered it - takes it.

wickedwasp wrote:I would like to offer my heartfelt and wholehearted thanks to Wales for sabotaging their RWC build up for the sake of the Lions tour

Please make all cheques payable to the WRU. They are very keen on making money and are probably very excited at all the money they will save when Gatland takes a year off

Morons to a man

So you think priestland will not be the Lions 10? He just guided wales to a grandslam whilst playing at 40% of his ability due to both knees being injured sexgon, farell are not fit to shine his shoes.

SecretFly wrote:If you win a Slam, and your coaching one of the 'Home' nations then it's natural that your coach might get headhunted for a big job going down at the Lions. It's a very real possibility that shouldn't have been overlooked by the Welsh populace as they enjoyed the 6N trip. But I think the Welsh did expect it, probably boasted about it a little, kinda wanted him to be asked to do it, were chuffed that The Lions want him ....but NO, he shouldn't go! So what? Choose a lesser coach, have his Lions capitulate and have the Welsh fans moaning that their man should have got/taken the job as he was really the only coach up to the task?

Next: Gatland himself. Has he ambition? Of course he has. He hasn't signed his soul over to Wales. He's a career coach in motion and his ambitions haven't dulled by taking Wales to his second Slam with them. He has his own wishes and future plans and Wales aren't given authority over them. So it's a natural that Gatland wants the Lions job and if offered it - takes it.

I couldn't give a rats poohole about Gatlands ambition. The WRU pay him a massive salary and his reponsibilities to Wales Rugby and its supporters should be the height of his ambition.

I think this give Gatland the opportunity to closely assess the strengths and weakenesses of England, Ireland and Scotland's best players. Has to be to our advantage at the moment. (as if we need it)

If Hansen has a tough year, what are the odds of Gatland getting the All Blacks job before the 2015 RWC?

Priestland is like a poor mans O'Gara because his goal kicking is weak and thats why he won't be the Lions 1st choice No10.

Dragonbreath, I never said Gatland was head coach in 2009 (and thanks, Kiwi, for removing whatever insult was there). But he, along with Shaun Edwards and Rob Howley, would have had a huge say in selection for the Test side. Did it affect the Welsh players who didn't make the Test side? Apparently not. Why should it be any different in 2013?

HERSH wrote:If Hansen has a tough year, what are the odds of Gatland getting the All Blacks job before the 2015 RWC?

Priestland is like a poor mans O'Gara because his goal kicking is weak and thats why he won't be the Lions 1st choice No10.

Gatland has enemies at the NZRU HERSH. There'd have to be a fair bit of turnover of office holders to put him at the top of any replacement-for-Hansen list.

dragonbreath wrote:

SecretFly wrote:If you win a Slam, and your coaching one of the 'Home' nations then it's natural that your coach might get headhunted for a big job going down at the Lions. It's a very real possibility that shouldn't have been overlooked by the Welsh populace as they enjoyed the 6N trip. But I think the Welsh did expect it, probably boasted about it a little, kinda wanted him to be asked to do it, were chuffed that The Lions want him ....but NO, he shouldn't go! So what? Choose a lesser coach, have his Lions capitulate and have the Welsh fans moaning that their man should have got/taken the job as he was really the only coach up to the task?

Next: Gatland himself. Has he ambition? Of course he has. He hasn't signed his soul over to Wales. He's a career coach in motion and his ambitions haven't dulled by taking Wales to his second Slam with them. He has his own wishes and future plans and Wales aren't given authority over them. So it's a natural that Gatland wants the Lions job and if offered it - takes it.

I couldn't give a rats poohole about Gatlands ambition. The WRU pay him a massive salary and his reponsibilities to Wales Rugby and its supporters should be the height of his ambition.

I knew that would come back at me.

Final point: Now wouldn't Gatland be a very happy and cooperative camper in his Welsh tracksuit if his employers denied him The Lions job? Oh there'd be champagne parties going on into the early hours all over Wales if that was the solution. Gatland would laugh it all off and say "Ha!!! Ha!!!! Ya got me, ya buggers. Let's go win the WC"

You think coaches have a brain, Dragonbreath? You think WRU should have thought about what they want before they signed a contract guaranteeing Gatland time off? You think Gatland would really have hung around if he didn't get that guarantee in his contract? You think he's a slave? You think he tries his darned best for Wales because his master order him to?