Black Clouds forming over Wales

First topic message reminder :

Why on earth are we allowing Gatland to take the Lions job? The last time we did this it was a complete car crash. Henry lost his dressing room, effectively having to implicitly tell core members of his Wales team that he felt players from other countries were actually better than them. It is impossible having done so to then expect them to play for you with the same passion and confidence.

Taking on such a role by its very nature, means that you have to undermine some of your players and shatter the confidence and team spirit you have created. This is a team with a lot of growing to do, why pour weed killer all over it.

It is folly on behalf of the WRU and plain vanity on the behalf of Gatland. The WRU has a self-harming habit that requires psychiatric help

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Dragonbreath, I never said Gatland was head coach in 2009 (and thanks, Kiwi, for removing whatever insult was there). But he, along with Shaun Edwards and Rob Howley, would have had a huge say in selection for the Test side. Did it affect the Welsh players who didn't make the Test side? Apparently not. Why should it be any different in 2013?

Because for some it will be their 1st sniff/taste of a Lions tour and if you don't get selected for the tour or the test team then that could potentially damage them.

Dragon,
"I expect the WRU to enforce his contract and for him to dedicate his time to Wales not to satisfying some personal ambition. Personally I don't think that unreasonable"

Legal talk? reasonable ? Well that should motivate the coach and his charges. He is a foreign mercenary not a Welshman. His passions are rugby, glory and money, in no particular order, but he is not a Welsh patriot like you are. 'Personal Ambition' you have a problem with that ? that is partly why he was hired. If WG sees his future elsewhere why would you want to shackle a pressed man against his will, using legal clauses ? Souns like Roman motivation. Sure you could try and make him stay, but would that get the best from him and from his players ? If his ambition takes him on, good luck, shake his hand, and find a coach who still hungers for Wales' ongoing success.

tigertattie wrote:I think it will have an effect on Wales. Particularly as that I would say Wales are on form just now due to team momentum and spirit.

I do not think wales will have players in the lions starting XV in the following positions:

Hooker
1 if not both 2nd rows
8
9
10
15

and possibly 13

That is half of the team. which mens half of the Wales team couple possibly become de-jected. There are welsh players who are not stand out performers who are alone in being the "best" in thier position. Where Wales's sucess comes from (in my opinion) is the sprit as a team and that they work together well as a unit.

This could (only could) hurt Wales, as it would if any other county's manager was the Lions manager.

Least of all The lions coach is basically going to have a year out from continuing to imrove his side. That is a large chuck of time that would do any country harm!

There were reasons why Graham Henry's decisions as lions coach effected players in 01.

Those were less apparent when three welsh coaches, Gatland, Edwards and Howley, went to SA in 09. They had no poor effect on Welsh moral whatsoever. Players came back with a heightened reputation, Phillips, Rees and Roberts in particular.

It is likely to be similar if not the same three Welsh coaches with Gatland, should he take the role, in 2013. There is no reason to assume that there would be an effect afterwards either.

SecretFly wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

SecretFly wrote:If you win a Slam, and your coaching one of the 'Home' nations then it's natural that your coach might get headhunted for a big job going down at the Lions. It's a very real possibility that shouldn't have been overlooked by the Welsh populace as they enjoyed the 6N trip. But I think the Welsh did expect it, probably boasted about it a little, kinda wanted him to be asked to do it, were chuffed that The Lions want him ....but NO, he shouldn't go! So what? Choose a lesser coach, have his Lions capitulate and have the Welsh fans moaning that their man should have got/taken the job as he was really the only coach up to the task?

Next: Gatland himself. Has he ambition? Of course he has. He hasn't signed his soul over to Wales. He's a career coach in motion and his ambitions haven't dulled by taking Wales to his second Slam with them. He has his own wishes and future plans and Wales aren't given authority over them. So it's a natural that Gatland wants the Lions job and if offered it - takes it.

I couldn't give a rats poohole about Gatlands ambition. The WRU pay him a massive salary and his reponsibilities to Wales Rugby and its supporters should be the height of his ambition.

I knew that would come back at me.

Final point: Now wouldn't Gatland be a very happy and cooperative camper in his Welsh tracksuit if his employers denied him The Lions job? Oh there'd be champagne parties going on into the early hours all over Wales if that was the solution. Gatland would laugh it all off and say "Ha!!! Ha!!!! Ya got me, ya buggers. Let's go win the WC"

You think coaches have a brain, Dragonbreath? You think WRU should have thought about what they want before they signed a contract guaranteeing Gatland time off? You think Gatland would really have hung around if he didn't get that guarantee in his contract? You think he's a slave? You think he tries his darned best for Wales because his master order him to?

Yes I do think he would have hung around because of that ambition you seem so much to admire. Because he has a brain, he realises that outside of NZ he has as strong a group of players as any of the top nations and a group that should improve. He is not a God and if his performance drops because he has not been allowed to go out and play with the Lions then he will be fired as all in his position are. The queue outside the WRU offices applying for his job would stetch for miles (if only for the ridiculous salary). Before the World Cup there was a campaign to get rid of him so if he thinks he is bullet proof he is badly mistaken.

The Welsh public will not tolerate a grown man sulking over the fact that we expect him to do the job he is very well paid for. If indeed the WRU ceded this condition in his new contract then they are fools, but then we already know that. Even if that is the case he owes it to his employers (the Welsh public) to thank the Lions panel for the kind offer, make all the appropriate noises, and get on with his job

People who sign contracts have responsibilities this is not Soccer.

maestegmafia wrote:

tigertattie wrote:I think it will have an effect on Wales. Particularly as that I would say Wales are on form just now due to team momentum and spirit.

I do not think wales will have players in the lions starting XV in the following positions:

Hooker
1 if not both 2nd rows
8
9
10
15

and possibly 13

That is half of the team. which mens half of the Wales team couple possibly become de-jected. There are welsh players who are not stand out performers who are alone in being the "best" in thier position. Where Wales's sucess comes from (in my opinion) is the sprit as a team and that they work together well as a unit.

This could (only could) hurt Wales, as it would if any other county's manager was the Lions manager.

Least of all The lions coach is basically going to have a year out from continuing to imrove his side. That is a large chuck of time that would do any country harm!

There were reasons why Graham Henry's decisions as lions coach effected players in 01.

Those were less apparent when three welsh coaches, Gatland, Edwards and Howley, went to SA in 09. They had no poor effect on Welsh moral whatsoever. Players came back with a heightened reputation, Phillips, Rees and Roberts in particular.

It is likely to be similar if not the same three Welsh coaches with Gatland, should he take the role, in 2013. There is no reason to assume that there would be an effect afterwards either.

I have to admit that I am astonished that a number of people seem to be able to make the distinction between being a memeber of a coaching team and being the HEAD COACH AND SELECTOR.

ITS DIFFERENT

Oh dear, what a narrow view of how to motivate. What motivated the amateur greats of the 70s? Contracts ?
Contracts are a necessary practical measure today, but you cannot contract for passion.

dragonbreath wrote:he owes it to his employers (the Welsh public) to thank the Lions panel for the kind offer, make all the appropriate noises, and get on with his job

As long as you think Gatland's employed by the people of Wales, you're not in a position to judge anyone else.

I've just read the last 9 posts on here and its the biggest load of crap I've seen - Gatland gets the job on merit, most welsh fans are happy as are the team and i dont see any divided loyalties anywhere as this was more or less in the WRU's plans - Talk about tryoing to create something out of nothing FFS

RubyGuby wrote:I've just read the last 9 posts on here and its the biggest load of crap I've seen - Gatland gets the job on merit, most welsh fans are happy as are the team and i dont see any divided loyalties anywhere as this was more or less in the WRU's plans - Talk about tryoing to create something out of nothing FFS

They are happy now, but just you wait. Poor 6 nations next year and watch the poo fly

gregortree wrote:Oh dear, what a narrow view of how to motivate. What motivated the amateur greats of the 70s? Contracts ?
Contracts are a necessary practical measure today, but you cannot contract for passion.

If your passion determines your performance then I am afraid to tell you that you can.

Hersh

"If Hansen has a tough year, what are the odds of Gatland getting the All Blacks job before the 2015 RWC? "

and that is why we owe him exactly nothing. He would go whether he takes the Lions or not. So I say not

Still.................................thanks again

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:he owes it to his employers (the Welsh public) to thank the Lions panel for the kind offer, make all the appropriate noises, and get on with his job

As long as you think Gatland's employed by the people of Wales, you're not in a position to judge anyone else.

Sorry mate. Not quite sure I follow you?

Well he's not employed by the people of Wales. If you think he is, then that calls into question everything else you state.

dragonbreath wrote:Why on earth are we allowing Gatland to take the Lions job? The last time we did this it was a complete car crash. Henry lost his dressing room, effectively having to implicitly tell core members of his Wales team that he felt players from other countries were actually better than them. It is impossible having done so to then expect them to play for you with the same passion and confidence.

Taking on such a role by its very nature, means that you have to undermine some of your players and shatter the confidence and team spirit you have created. This is a team with a lot of growing to do, why pour weed killer all over it.

It is folly on behalf of the WRU and plain vanity on the behalf of Gatland. The WRU has a self-harming habit that requires psychiatric help

about time one of you got it.. i honestly think its ridiculas.

Btw how is this new character going so far?

I'm furious Wales have allowed this!

The only crumb of comfort I have is at least we will have an idea if Howley and Mcbryde are up to the job in 2015 when Gatland leaves to take on the All Blacks job.

I guess the difference between Henry and Gatland though is Henry told the Welsh boys they were the best in the world and got them to believe in him. then the Lions came along and most of them found out they weren't the best in Britain and Ireland!

Gatland is loyal to a select few, but is also pretty ruthless and the current Welsh boys respect this. Secondly a lot of this Welsh squad had their first caps under Gatland so I expect Gatland to always have most of their loyalty.

The OP is exaggerating. I´ve been to Wales where there was glorious sunshine, albeit for thirteen minutes.

Kia

you were there for that 13 minutes? First and last in living memory!

This selfish decision by Gatland is going to cost Wales a World Cup!

It's disgusting that he has the ambition to take on this unique job and utterly destructive of Welsh Rugby that he could potentially only pick 15 Welsh players for the starting XV.

Shoot him now, the traitor!

Cowshot

I think you've summed up the general sentiment

Wow there is a lot of clutching at straws here.

Not sure about that Cymro

Little bit of Schadenfreude maybe.................

Yes but that's after the event at the moment it's very premature.

Cymro True

Look, in all honesty Wales are good enough & professional enough at the moment to take this in their stride.

I'm just enjoying some of the foaming at the mouth that seems to be going on.

Cymro: You know, somehow I think Welsh Rugby will cope during Gatland's busman's holiday.

I do wonder what some here will be posting when we actually get somewhere near the event...

Tribal wars will be forgotten by then we will be all focused on the opposition.

Mmm - that'd be us, then

Tribal wars will be forgotten by then we will be all focused on the opposition

The Lions are special.