A truly confusing conundrum.

Chris Ashton ( the guy who used to score trys for england on a regular Basis) got alot of stick last year for the way he celebrated before he even scored the points. Celebrations like this .....

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/columnists/2011/2/12/1297522688970/Chris-Ashton--007.jpg

This caused complete outcry among people of the rugby world , Welsh people were up in arms. How dare this young Winger score a try in such manor! "Arrogant!" and "disrespectful!" were words that were being thrown around "Typical arrogant English". When confronted with the argument that Shane Williams has celebrated Trys in the same way ,they couldn't admit that their hate was unjustified. They would reply that shane has been around long enough on the international circuit and therefore his Celebrations are justified, perhaps that argument was fair enough......

But then this happened........

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2012/2/26/1330269176901/Scott-Williams-scores-a-t-007.jpg

A young welsh lad by the name of Scott Williams scores a match winning try against england at HQ in a manor that has significant similarities to an incident from a certain game at the millennium stadium last year .Yet there was no outcry from the English Rugby public or anyone else for that matter ? Even though this was a blatant copy of Ashtons celebrations, rumours have it that Ashton was so deeply effected by the Blatant breach of copy right laws that his form was hampered for the rest of the tournament.

What does this mean ?

Perhaps the English are more Gracious in defeat, so they don't bring up such inconsequential things ?

Or Maybe the Welsh Critics of the Ash-splash have seen the light, and now finally appreciate the Athletic ability it takes to jump a few feet into the air?

Or even more likely, the reason behind the completely different re-actions from the two trys is due to some unknown magical formula taking into account the height of the player in the air and the angle of which the player is facing the pitch?

Who Knows...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGrMJhgvAzE

To be fair there were plenty of english willing to lay into Ashton too just for the sake of it. People like to be angry.

The swan aint got anything on the caterpillar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq1rUu8dZ6g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJJCvnI3N0

Seems try celebrations have become commonplace in super rugby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvkcDynkTrI


Still, its fair to say this guy is a donut
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3dXJ0kCQNk



Look at the list of names there,all top class players whove earned the right to be a bit arrogant doing this sort of thing ...and cipriani.

That picture of Scott Williams doesn't show a swan dive though! Way to ruin your argument.

Griff wrote:That picture of Scott Williams doesn't show a swan dive though! Way to ruin your argument.

We need the facepalm icon back.

Ashtons try celebration in this case was to raise an arm in the air ( see the picture, identical to scott williams), even that was enough to send the jealousy patrol into overdrive.,

In the grand scheme of things its a nothing.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Griff wrote:That picture of Scott Williams doesn't show a swan dive though! Way to ruin your argument.

We need the facepalm icon back.

Ashtons try celebration in this case was to raise an arm in the air ( see the picture, identical to scott williams), even that was enough to send the jealousy patrol into overdrive.,

In the grand scheme of things its a nothing.

Ashton did the raised arm then a swan dive if memory serves. Scott Williams didn't do a swan dive, he just died over the line like any normal player. Seems odd to compare the two. Why not make the argument stronger by showing a picture of a Welsh Ashton-esque swan dive instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8kA6rlq7SM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Griff wrote:That picture of Scott Williams doesn't show a swan dive though! Way to ruin your argument.

I was mainly referring to the celebration before the try was scored , now i could be wrong but i do recall Scott Williams jumping up in the air with one arm raised, now if your telling me that one arm raised is ok but two arms (a Swan dive) is being disrespectful, thats laughable...

Unless mayby you refer back to the magic formula i mentioned, maybe the number of arms extended from the Body does matter

Nah, it's the swan dive that riles people. Scott Williams did a regular dive!

Griff wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Griff wrote:That picture of Scott Williams doesn't show a swan dive though! Way to ruin your argument.

We need the facepalm icon back.

Ashtons try celebration in this case was to raise an arm in the air ( see the picture, identical to scott williams), even that was enough to send the jealousy patrol into overdrive.,

In the grand scheme of things its a nothing.

Ashton did the raised arm then a swan dive if memory serves. Scott Williams didn't do a swan dive, he just died over the line like any normal player. Seems odd to compare the two. Why not make the argument stronger by showing a picture of a Welsh Ashton-esque swan dive instead?

I don't really care if players dive on their way to score, but if you were to say that Ashton is a reprehensible person for his celebrations, then you have to say the same thing about Scott Williams. He dived in celebration, there was no need to dive but he was excited about scoring a try. So he should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XAzWQ0NpUU

Our Acadamy team coached by Louis Koen and Ian McDonald went to England to play against one of the varsities there, when the wing scored a try he started doing a dance and the try was disallowed because they are trying to teach these young boys to be respectful in victory.

True story.

Perhaps the English are more Gracious in defeat, so they don't bring up such inconsequential things ?

Obviously a massive fan of irony. It took you nearly two months to come up with this? Oh dear. Whatever happened to a good wum?

I don't think Scott Williams' dive is any different than, say, Kevin Morgan's against Ireland to win the grand slam in 2005, or Scott Gibbs against England in 1999 at Wembley. People don't talk about those dives as being disrespectful, so there must be something different that Ashton does. So yes, it is the 'formula' that the OP talks about. I think it's this 'splash' thing, legs and arms splayed like a WWF wrestler diving off the top ropes! So much could go wrong in terms of not grounding the ball. Maybe that's what makes it arrogant?

griff dont be such a simp;leton- its quite obvious its because ashton is english. there is no difference at all other than that.

The difference is that the good old BBC and a certain brainless female interviewer couldn't stop talking about Ashton's dive. Add that to him scoring a record number of tries and England winning the 6N's for the first time since god knows when and the media (BBC in particular) went mad about it.

In the end it's easier for a corporation and people at home who know little about rugby to focus on this then on actual technical things.

its easier for bitter celts to have a pop at an englishman for diving than it is for them to have a pop at there own player for doing it- it really is that simple yappy- nothing else

Why still be on this point about Ashton?
Ashton dives then gets up, doesn't pander to the camera and/or the crowd with silly dances or gestures. He just goes and celebrates with his teammates.........as he should.

In Rugby today, it seems half of all try scorers are putting their hand up in that silly 'I am number one' gesture before going over. Makes them all look like number two, by the way. I don't like that from a pure technical point (don't put yourself in position to lose the ball before touch down, dumbass), and from a professionalism and respect point of view. I suggest cutting the offending finger off all players who do this or simply making them place the particular digit in a most uncomfortable place for a while.

Scott Williams does remind me of someone else...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph_qG5NYbUc

Quade knows how to be humble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvkcDynkTrI

do people really truely have a problem with celebrating a score!!

i am very confussed by this strange attitude

SecretFly wrote:Quade knows how to be humble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvkcDynkTrI

Homer

It's not confusing and there's no conundrum.

The truth is that some fans - Welsh and English - grab any opportunity to slag off players of their respective countries - or whole teams and sometimes whole countries. Facts aren't allowed to get in the way.

That's not all fans, thank goodness, just some.

mystiroakey wrote:griff dont be such a simp;leton- its quite obvious its because ashton is english. there is no difference at all other than that.

This is the point i was trying to get across. But i can see now that no self Respecting Welsh rugby poster will admit this.

The reason why i brought this up now and not straight after the final whistle is that i didnt want to draw attention from their deserved Grand Slam.

The double standards on these boards are stupid. Posts such as "England Target 2015" are heckled by Welsh posters saying how the English are being arrogant. All you have top do is look down a couple of topics and you see headlines like "Wales to be the All Blacks Biggest Challange in 2012" .........

I know which one i think is more arogant.

There was never anything wrong with Ashton's celebration. He should be allowed to celebrate his try how he likes but within respectfull grounds.

EngInAuck wrote:The double standards on these boards are stupid. Posts such as "England Target 2015" are heckled by Welsh posters saying how the English are being arrogant. All you have top do is look down a couple of topics and you see headlines like "Wales to be the All Blacks Biggest Challange in 2012" .........

I know which one i think is more arogant.

EnginAuck. Mate it isn't double standards or arrogance. It is commonly known as wind ups and biased views.

Again, I can only reiterate that Ashton will swan dive at any opportunity he can, even if he's handed a simple run-in under the posts which he did nothing to create himself.

Not only did Scott Williams not swan dive but his try required at least some individual skill on his part. Shane was the same, he only did dives when he scored tries that required skill. I've seen Ashton recieve a pass with no one in front of him, at a very short distance from the line, couldn't have been easier, yet he still can't resist prancing.

EngInAuck wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:griff dont be such a simp;leton- its quite obvious its because ashton is english. there is no difference at all other than that.

This is the point i was trying to get across. But i can see now that no self Respecting Welsh rugby poster will admit this.

The reason why i brought this up now and not straight after the final whistle is that i didnt want to draw attention from their deserved Grand Slam.

The double standards on these boards are stupid. Posts such as "England Target 2015" are heckled by Welsh posters saying how the English are being arrogant. All you have top do is look down a couple of topics and you see headlines like "Wales to be the All Blacks Biggest Challange in 2012" .........

I know which one i think is more arogant.

Sorry to pop your balloon but the thread re "WAles to be the All Blacks biggest challenge" was started by a Kiwi.Kind of undermines your posturing somewhat?????

Taffineastbourne wrote:

EngInAuck wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:griff dont be such a simp;leton- its quite obvious its because ashton is english. there is no difference at all other than that.

This is the point i was trying to get across. But i can see now that no self Respecting Welsh rugby poster will admit this.

The reason why i brought this up now and not straight after the final whistle is that i didnt want to draw attention from their deserved Grand Slam.

The double standards on these boards are stupid. Posts such as "England Target 2015" are heckled by Welsh posters saying how the English are being arrogant. All you have top do is look down a couple of topics and you see headlines like "Wales to be the All Blacks Biggest Challange in 2012" .........

I know which one i think is more arogant.

Sorry to pop your balloon but the thread re "WAles to be the All Blacks biggest challenge" was started by a Kiwi.Kind of undermines your posturing somewhat?????

Indeed it was

Tbh I’m amused when the oppo fans get their knickers in a twist over one thing or another that an English player did or didn’t do – shows they're thinking of us. As some guy with funny hair once said there’s only one thing in life worse than being talked about and that’s not being talked about.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

EngInAuck wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:griff dont be such a simp;leton- its quite obvious its because ashton is english. there is no difference at all other than that.

This is the point i was trying to get across. But i can see now that no self Respecting Welsh rugby poster will admit this.

The reason why i brought this up now and not straight after the final whistle is that i didnt want to draw attention from their deserved Grand Slam.

The double standards on these boards are stupid. Posts such as "England Target 2015" are heckled by Welsh posters saying how the English are being arrogant. All you have top do is look down a couple of topics and you see headlines like "Wales to be the All Blacks Biggest Challange in 2012" .........

I know which one i think is more arogant.

Sorry to pop your balloon but the thread re "WAles to be the All Blacks biggest challenge" was started by a Kiwi.Kind of undermines your posturing somewhat?????

Indeed it was

And your telling me that no Welsh posters agreed with the post ?

Would a Welshman argue with a Kiwi fan of the current world champions on this matter?I doubt that many would as we acknowledge that they know their Rugby.
How does that make us arrogant as you suggested?

EngInAuck wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

EngInAuck wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:griff dont be such a simp;leton- its quite obvious its because ashton is english. there is no difference at all other than that.

This is the point i was trying to get across. But i can see now that no self Respecting Welsh rugby poster will admit this.

The reason why i brought this up now and not straight after the final whistle is that i didnt want to draw attention from their deserved Grand Slam.

The double standards on these boards are stupid. Posts such as "England Target 2015" are heckled by Welsh posters saying how the English are being arrogant. All you have top do is look down a couple of topics and you see headlines like "Wales to be the All Blacks Biggest Challange in 2012" .........

I know which one i think is more arogant.

Sorry to pop your balloon but the thread re "WAles to be the All Blacks biggest challenge" was started by a Kiwi.Kind of undermines your posturing somewhat?????

Indeed it was

And your telling me that no Welsh posters agreed with the post ?

Personally I didn't agree or disagree, I'm still sceptical on whether it'll be the case and anyway it's not for months yet. But why should no Welsh poster agree? Wales are the best side in the NH so logically we might be the AB's toughest test when they visit the NH.

Now back on topic... why isn't Ashton arrogant for diving as often as possible?

Taffineastbourne wrote:Would a Welshman argue with a Kiwi fan of the current world champions on this matter?I doubt that many would as we acknowledge that they know their Rugby.
How does that make us arrogant as you suggested?

You Agree that Wales will be the World Champions biggest challenge in 2012, and you cant see how that makes you arrogant?

Yet if a English poster posts that they believe that England might win the World Cup in 2015 , that is being arrogant ?


.....Lord help us

EngInAuck wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:Would a Welshman argue with a Kiwi fan of the current world champions on this matter?I doubt that many would as we acknowledge that they know their Rugby.
How does that make us arrogant as you suggested?

You Agree that Wales will be the World Champions biggest challenge in 2012, and you cant see how that makes you arrogant?

Yet if a English poster posts that they believe that England might win the World Cup in 2015 , that is being arrogant ?


.....Lord help us

If I were to disagree with a well-informed fan of the World Champions,that would be arrogant.If they see us as their biggest threat,who am I to disagree?Dont you get it?
If you disagree,might that seem a tad arrogant?
A true conundrum for you,methinks.

Guys enough of this arrogance. There is nothing wrong with either set of supporters believing or hoping their team could be the All Blacks biggest challenge, whether you agree is a different matter. But keep it based on facts and not accusing each other of arrogance or any other personal attack.

biltongbek wrote:Guys enough of this arrogance. There is nothing wrong with either set of supporters believing or hoping their team could be the All Blacks biggest challenge, whether you agree is a different matter. But keep it based on facts and not accusing each other of arrogance or any other personal attack.

Apologies Biltong

Originally posted this Topic as a bit of a joke, i thought it might provide some laughs , hopefully it has

Wow...

This is now the most pathetic thread I have read on here...!

EngInAuck wrote:Originally posted this Topic as a bit of a joke, i thought it might provide some laughs , hopefully it has

Like I said all along oh dear. No it hasn't provided any laughs and you have done yourself no favours flogging a dead horse by continuing to go down the same path. Your incorrect comparison of the two threads was funny though, but only for getting to watch you try and justify your mistake.

Poor effort.

I think we are missing the point here and will offer a diferent angle. Many anglo fans are dismissive of Ashtons diving and whilst I have no problem with the celebration (I would if I was his coach as it is a bit risky) I think people are judging the action by the type of person performing that action. Ashton has not endeared himself to many fans including some anglos and hence his celebration is treated with some disdain. Scott Williams is a virtual unknown and until he achieves a higher profile he's probably safe from criticism. Interestingly the much loved Jamie Roberts started celebrating with a finger in the air a long time before touching down versus Italy yet Saint Jamie is devolved of all things arrogant as he's a "decent bloke" so to speak. A little more humilty from all would help. Celebrate by all means that's what you're there for but just have a think what's best for all concerned.

At least it is something to talk about when the Six Nations are over, eh?

I am surprised the finger pointing thing was that big a deal.

Personally speaking I thought Ashton was a plonker as the swan dive is likely to lead to a knock on and the coach of the international team told him privately and publically by the media that it could affect the team some day with a knock on and to stop doing it.

That was the arrogant part for me. Never the finger point.

so pointing a finger isnt arrogant?

lol

personally i dont mind arrogance,its part and parcel of sport!! but lets not try and make out something isnt arrogant when it clearly is! lol

mystiroakey wrote:so pointing a finger isnt arrogant?

lol

personally i dont mind arrogance,its part and parcel of sport!! but lets not try and make out something isnt arrogant when it clearly is! lol

Not for me it isnt. Lots of players do it. From memory I think Jamie Heaslip does it a bit.

No for me it was continuing to do these dives when they were risky and his coach told him to stop that was the issue.

Yeah lots of people do do it. but thats due to the fact most sportsmen are arrogant.

I used to hate the Ashton Swan-dive. I was sure one day it would go wrong.
Now I miss it.

The 'arrogant' part for me was the team the swan dive was initially directed at - Italy (bottom ranked side, trying their best, being eaten alive and having their noses rubbed in it) I didn't like that aspect.

I don't like performance celebrations in general (non-showy simple put downs and non-showy retreat for restart position are much cooler in my eyes) but rubbing it in to low ranked sides is a tad cruel.

But the actual bit about swan dives and other dramatic leaps and falls that I detest is the lack of understanding of just how much damage could be inflicted on an arm/shoulder/wrist as they take the full weight of an exuberant player needlessly crashing to the ground. Injuries can happen in rugby, we all know that - don't invite them whilst scoring.

mystiroakey wrote:Yeah lots of people do do it. but thats due to the fact most sportsmen are arrogant.

Do you really find it arrogant? I dont even give it a second thought.

Whats so arrogant about it.

I dont give a swan dive a second thought.

You need me to tell you whats arrogant about gestures before a score. lol

i dont give a second thought. but its still a display of arrogance

I dont see whats funny. I just dont find it arrogant. Thats all.

Being arrogant for me is doing something risky that could affect you and the team.

Pointing a finger in the air is simply celebrating a try.

It's the fact that Ashton looks like he might drop the ball mid-score than upsets me. Nobody minded when Shane did a roly-poly score (though his context in doing so was better), because tbh it's not that disrespectful. Better than celebrating for ages after the score

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's the fact that Ashton looks like he might drop the ball mid-score than upsets me. Nobody minded when Shane did a roly-poly score (though his context in doing so was better), because tbh it's not that disrespectful. Better than celebrating for ages after the score

Exactly. Thats the issue.