The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

red_stag wrote:LordDowlais
Posts: 371
Join date: 2011-05-18
Age: 35
Location: Methyr Tydfil

I am just trying to sell the town in which I live, which in case you havent noticed, does not have any pro rugby, but we are the biggest town in the valley's, some might say the capital of the valley's

on a serious note tho dowlais would the martyrs allow a ground share at pennydarren? who owns the ground?

I can't see how a valleys development region can plan to develop Rugby in another development region.

Also like said will other nations agree to a Valleys team in the Pro 12 or even RCG1404??

Personally if it's to expand then I think Rome should get a team before North Wales or the Valleys, Scottish Boarders or Cali Reds.

The market in Rome has Far far more potentional than any of these team would.
Italy has the potentional to support 4 teams to make a Pro 14, Better than Wales a 5th region or Scotland a 3rd.

Personally I think Wales are pretty much limited to 4 teams now, so if a valleys team or RGC1404 ever want to join the league, one of the current 'regions' has to merge/fold, to make way.

GavinDragon wrote:on a serious note tho dowlais would the martyrs allow a ground share at pennydarren? who owns the ground?

The Martyrs don't own the ground the council do, Merthyr Town as they are now known have been ground sharing with Taffs Well for the last two seasons as they went bankrupt and they could not afford the rent. The only thing it has been used for during the last two years is for the odd friendly between Cardiff and pop concerts. For the record and wumming aside though it would be a prime spot for regional rugby and I can see it being a sucsess there.

is it really 10k capacity?

If it is 10k no wonder Merthyr couldn't afford the rent!

It could be the best location for the team as it's easier to get to (by car) from Neath as well - however how would the Ponty fans take it?

Smirnoff,

They would feel disenfranchised

seriously tho the likes who have been calling for something like this...steffan and others would you support a valleys team in merthyr?

But also G Dragon since this thread has gone up I've seen a lot of people mentioning problems, barriers and holes in the business plan but all the people who started off defending it have seemed to have disappeared from the thread instead of defending it/providing more information.

gowales wrote:Smirnoff,

They would feel disenfranchised

the proposal has its flaws, and ive accepted that, i just really like the concept of a fan owned region so im just playng devils advocate and seeing what people in the valleys actually think and how much appetite there is for this

I though the buiness plan had some good points in it as well.

I'd like the existing regions to put out their own buiness plans and include some of the point made in this

Kingshu wrote:I though the buiness plan had some good points in it as well.

I'd like the existing regions to put out their own buiness plans and include some of the point made in this

It would be interesting as Ebbw are in the Dragons business plan and Bridgend and even Neath are in the Ospreys business plan

I wonder which business plans would win the big fight off...

That's another thing that annoys me about this plan, Smirnoff. It assumes that the people of the Gwent valleys don't feel that the Dragons represent them, when I know from personal experience that plenty of them do.

luckless we need to go further tho dont we, we need to stage whereever possible games at ebbw and pontypool if we can as a symoblic gesture if nothing else, dropping newport also again as a symbolic gesture

True Gavin - however just because the Dragons haven't done that yet - it's still a bit arrogant to assume that all these Ebbw fans will fall in love with the 'Valleys region' and want to become part of that region - or that Ebbw could/would want to sever the financial ties and Academy ties they have with the Dragons and take up with a development region.

Maybe discussions on the 'Valleys region' will encourage Dragons to look at playing some games in Ebbw/Cross Keys and to drop Newport from their name. Though I suppose it's more difficult with an expensive new stand in the Dave

just listened to the real radio phone in from last night owen smith was on there and stated that htye had unnofficial talks with ebbw vale and that they were interested in the concept

well i tell you what smirnoff if they dont try to take games to ebbw etc and then this valleys region take off (in effect officially making newport a standalone club again) i wouldnt complain one bit if newport were removed from the rabbo in favour of valleys rugby

im newport born but raised in monouthshire i bought into the concept of the dragons as it encompassed where im from, if they go back to stand alone status they will be losing a fan in me and as i said IF this valleys concept takes off id happily support them instead

That's interesting - I wonder who he spoke to at Ebbw?

I'd imagine (haven't looked into it) it would kill the Newport Dragons if they became stand alone (or even just Cross Keys and Newport), as I reckon a lot of fans could be like you and leave them to support someone else (or just become disenfranchised with it all). Then Newport/Newport Dragons would still have a bigger stadium/expensive stand to pay for with less crowds.

You'd think it wouldn't be too simple to change academies and financial obligations but you never know. and you'd also imagine that the Dragons would want to put up a fight to keep Ebbw in their region, but who knows with Welsh rugby.

If a Valleys team did start, clubs like Eddw vale and Bridgend would maybe have to decide which region they belong to.
Not told by the WRU.

Most clubs would know the area they belong to it teams on boarders than may have decisions to make.

However I would propose that once they have made the decision that have to stick with it. So you don't have teams like Neath falling out and wanting to join Valley or Ospreys every few years, either they are part of the region they decide, or they are left out.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:That's interesting - I wonder who he spoke to at Ebbw?

I'd imagine (haven't looked into it) it would kill the Newport Dragons if they became stand alone (or even just Cross Keys and Newport), as I reckon a lot of fans could be like you and leave them to support someone else (or just become disenfranchised with it all). Then Newport/Newport Dragons would still have a bigger stadium/expensive stand to pay for with less crowds.

You'd think it wouldn't be too simple to change academies and financial obligations but you never know. and you'd also imagine that the Dragons would want to put up a fight to keep Ebbw in their region, but who knows with Welsh rugby.

did someone not mention a rumor that Newport were wanting to chance next year to just Newport a standalone team, and losing out on WRU funding etc, but not having to do the regional stuff

i dont know about that kingshu, what is the point of that stand if their team is only playing semi pro rugby

and smirnoff the last player i can remember who was ebbw vale/dragons afifiliated was aron coundley the prop and i dnt think hes there anymore, seems that since theyve been down in div one they havent apeared to have had much more support

maybe bedford could clear that up tho hes an ebbw man

I met an Ebbw Valian a few years back on my way to the bus station. He said that everyone in Ebbw hates the Dragons and supports Cardiff Blues. Now, I know he doesn't speak for everyone but it does show people from the valleys (even the Gwent Valleys) are willing to support a region and more to the point, support the Blues! I am not sure what happened with Ebbw Vale but they were in a hole before the Regions come in and were never a good feeder club nor could they produce the results in the Premiership (and prior to 2003 in every competiton). So not sure what the Dragons were meant to do there. We as a Region work well with Newport, Crosskeys and Pontypool; I mention those three because I think that we only need the 3 clubs and each 'region' should be allocated an equal number; you should note Bedwas are below semi-pro standard.

I don't think the Dragons will be going back to Newport. If they did I can't imagine the attendances dropping. The like of Blackwood, Abertillery (I use these because they were earlier mentioned) would come down and support Newport at the turn of professionalism. It makes sense, given what they are. How could either of those dish out a professional team by themselves and expect them to compete with teams like Toulouse?

GavinDragon wrote:i dont know about that kingshu, what is the point of that stand if their team is only playing semi pro rugby

and smirnoff the last player i can remember who was ebbw vale/dragons afifiliated was aron coundley the prop and i dnt think hes there anymore, seems that since theyve been down in div one they havent apeared to have had much more support

maybe bedford could clear that up tho hes an ebbw man

If it is the Aaron Coundley I'm thinking of then he is the Wales U20 representative from Blackwood. Not sure of his club history from age 17/18 onwards. I know, because we attended the same college.

Morgan,

People see things in different ways. I was doing a volunteer programme in Africa and I was talking to a girl from Wales who was there.

I asked her did she follow a region. She said "I'm from North Wales so I dont have an official region but I support the team who are most of a "region" and less of a "superclub".

Have a guess who she said . . . . . . . . . .The Cardiff Blues!!!!!!!

It made no sense to me. She said as far as "everyone" from up near her was was concerned it was:

Swansea
Llanelli
The Blues
Newport

People see things in weird ways.

morg its not about the playing side its the fan side, eugene cross is a pretty good facility and could easily host a dragons game.

you could give them 2-3 games a season....if after 2-3 years they weren showing up you could change it but at least youd be able to say 'we tried we included you, we brought top level rugby to your doorstep and you stll didnt support' but i believe if done correctly it could happen

and tbf thats where this valleys rugby concept does well again on real radio owen smith stated that from the outset 50% of the regions matches would be in sardis with 50% being elsewhere- wherever viable and whoever wanted to affiliate themselves to it, pontypool, pontypridd, neath and pennydarren park were all mentioned

Gavin,

I have to say I hope they manage to get it off the ground.

the more i think about it the more i agree stag

red_stag wrote:Morgan,

People see things in different ways. I was doing a volunteer programme in Africa and I was talking to a girl from Wales who was there.

I asked her did she follow a region. She said "I'm from North Wales so I dont have an official region but I support the team who are most of a "region" and less of a "superclub".

Have a guess who she said . . . . . . . . . .The Cardiff Blues!!!!!!!

It made no sense to me. She said as far as "everyone" from up near her was was concerned it was:

Swansea
Llanelli
The Blues
Newport

People see things in weird ways.

Yeah - girls shouldn't be allowed to comment on rugby. All went downhill the day we started selling them pink cowboy hats on international days....

I don't know much about Welsh regional rugby other than every valley town hates the one next to it and they all hate Cardiff but looking at the above from a purely financial context:
Can RCT Councill afford to put £100,000 of their cash into refurbing a rugby pitch in the current local government funding squeeze ?
Are there really 10,000 people in the valleys with £100 to spare nevermind the £1000 for a "membership" ?
Are there really businesses in the valleys who are doing well enough to put in a quarter of a million pounds each year ?
There will be no corporate facilities for these businesses to start with ?
And most importantly can the WRU afford to dish them out £1.2 million to kick start the whole thing ?

And castrelli shouldnt b allowed to comment on girls!

Kingshu wrote:did someone not mention a rumor that Newport were wanting to chance next year to just Newport a standalone team, and losing out on WRU funding etc, but not having to do the regional stuff

The rumour I heard was that the WRU were going to impose that on the Dragons. As has been mentioned, we have a good relationship with some of the clubs and we wouldn't want to throw that away. It wasn't too long ago that we were borrowing a good half-a-dozen our starting XV from the clubs.

Irish Londoner wrote:I don't know much about Welsh regional rugby other than every valley town hates the one next to it and they all hate Cardiff but looking at the above from a purely financial context:
Can RCT Councill afford to put £100,000 of their cash into refurbing a rugby pitch in the current local government funding squeeze ?
Are there really 10,000 people in the valleys with £100 to spare nevermind the £1000 for a "membership" ?
Are there really businesses in the valleys who are doing well enough to put in a quarter of a million pounds each year ?
There will be no corporate facilities for these businesses to start with ?
And most importantly can the WRU afford to dish them out £1.2 million to kick start the whole thing ?

I do not think they are asking for funding from trhe WRU though, I think they plan on being self sustainable.

Orginally the WRU wanted

Province location Main Feeder clubs
Stradey Park, Llanelli Llanelli RFC, Swansea RFC, Neath RFC
Cardiff Arms Park, Cardiff Cardiff RFC, Bridgend RFC, Pontypridd RFC
Rodney Parade, Newport Newport RFC, Caerphilly RFC, Ebbw Vale RFC
Racecourse Ground, Wrexham Fed from all South Wales clubs


We may see depending on the PriceWaterhouseandCooper report, Cardiff Blues continueing problems the rumors the Dragons will be demoted to Newport by the WRU, that in essance Dragons and Blues get combined to create a region, with a similar buiness plan.

Scarlets
Ospreys
Valley team Pontypridd RFC, Neath RFC, Ebbw Vale RFC
Cardiff/Dragons Cardiff RFC, Newport RFC

eventually maybe to allow RCG1404's entry the Ospreys would join the Scarlets, with Bridgend moving to the Valleys region.

Leaving North, West ,Valleys and Southern regions close to what they orginally planned

Some right fantasy being written here about the Dragons, whose own experience says a lot about the capacity of the smaller clubs in Wales to support a region.

Lest we forget, Ebbw Vale signed up to the merger with Newport, only for then-benefactor Marcus Russell to run for the hills the minute he realised how much money it would cost him. Net result the Dragons have only ever owned half their region - and cannot therefore attract the investment nor actually make many of the changes crowed for by the so-called 'disenfranchised' because they need permission from Uncle WRU to do it. Irony or ironies, then, that the club who have held back the regional agenda in Gwent the most is not the big bad 'superclub', but a Valleys club...in fact as said above if the WRU revert the Dragons to Newport (and they can kiss my season ticket money goodbye if they do, I signed up to a region) it will be because 'The Valleys' abandoned the regional concept!

When in the last nine years have any of the Gwent Valley clubs stepped up to the plate and made a noise to the WRU about getting 'their' region back? They could probably have had it for less than the £10,000 this sheister MP is asking for?

Cross Keys have at least stepped up to the plate with their work with the Academy but the rest have allowed Newport to take the risk and offered little more than complaints, even when facts are patently to the contrary (e.g. the Nelson coach who stated on TV he has nothing to do with the Dragons, even though several members of club play in the Dragons age-grade teams...).

This is the crux of the failure of the regions, imo. Why should they break their backs trying to attract the small minority of potential supporters who are hard-line fans of other clubs? It'll never work, there's too much water under the bridge and they have proved themselves most adept at conjuring fantastical reasons, NOT to be part of a region, even to the extent that they undermine the concept for everyone else.

Far better that those who want to play the victim jump down this hole in RCT, waste their small resources on a Ponty Superclub, and the regions get on with what they should be doing, which is bringing in the casual fans. Saracens get around the same as the regions at Vicarage Road, but 80,000 rock up to Wembley, ignorant of the shape of a rugby ball but eager to be part of the 'event' nontheless. For the Dragons, for example, to waste time trying to placate hard-line Ebbw-Valers instead of getting out and about in Cwmbran and the Risca-Newbridge-Blackwood corridor is commercial suicide.

I think that the fact that the other clubs in the Dragons region have had nearly 10 years to put a buiness model together or save up to buy the 50% of the region from the WRU, and you haven't heard even so much as a murmer that it's being considered, means that the Clubs in the Dragons region are very happy with Newports running of things. If they weren't happy they would have looked at ways to gain the 50% the WRU own.

However while this means the Clubs are happy it deosn't mean the fans of those clubs are happy.

Kingshu wrote:We may see depending on the PriceWaterhouseandCooper report, Cardiff Blues continueing problems the rumors the Dragons will be demoted to Newport by the WRU, that in essance Dragons and Blues get combined to create a region

Why should the Dragons, who manage their finances sensibly, be made to suffer because the Blues have been so profligate?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Kingshu wrote:We may see depending on the PriceWaterhouseandCooper report, Cardiff Blues continueing problems the rumors the Dragons will be demoted to Newport by the WRU, that in essance Dragons and Blues get combined to create a region

Why should the Dragons, who manage their finances sensibly, be made to suffer because the Blues have been so profligate?

Cos it would be to funny if the Blues were made into part of this Valleys region.

As long as they're not merged with the Dragons, I don't care what happens to them!

luckless_pedestrian wrote:As long as they're not merged with the Dragons, I don't care what happens to them!

Not keen on the NGC Blue Dragons splitting games between Newport & the Arms Park eh Lucky?



I'm still grumpy that the Marlborough Red Devils merged with the Nelson Bays Blue Gryphons to form the Tasman Makos. The combined province merged two good 2nd Division NPC sides to form one mediocre 1st Division one that serves as a secondary feeder for the Crusaders, with international players on the books who never play (Brad Thorn etc). And the initial (though they've since turned it around) financial stuff-ups meant the Marlborough District Council had to buy Lansdowne Park to bail them out. It's at least a 90 minute drive over the Whangamoa hills* from Blenheim to Nelson too.


*Note, the Whangamoas are ~200m higher than Mt Snowden

Ah, KRD. Now that you are here perhaps you could tell us a bit more about how the NZ model works? The clubs, the NPC provinces and the S15 Franchises. How do they all work together through the season and feed each other? I for one am interested to know.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Not keen on the NGC Blue Dragons splitting games between Newport & the Arms Park eh Lucky?

Sponsored by a company that makes sweet and sour sauce?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:Not keen on the NGC Blue Dragons splitting games between Newport & the Arms Park eh Lucky?

Sponsored by a company that makes sweet and sour sauce?

Sweet and Sour sauce flavoured Peters Pies, what a mix!

Given that Ponty has a population of 30,000 I fail to see any sense in putting a region there. Is the assumption that fans from other local areas will go to Ponty to watch regional rugby? I think its pushing it somewhat. Cardiff has far more people traveling it from outside the city. Same as Swansea and Newport (Llanelli is the odd one out).

If anyone is likely to be able to drum up support for a 5th Region its the 800,000 North Walians who dont get any pro rugby. Do the 30,000 Ponty fans really believe they have a god given right for pro rugby at the expense of North Wales?

I wish Ponty fans could just accept that Pro Rugby in the valleys will never come back. Dont complain about it. There are loads of teams with heritage who feel miffed at not becoming pro sides (Newbridge, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool etc). Truth is the only reason Ponty and Bridgend was because of Samual's dosh. Once that went it was all over for them.

The best chance of Pro Rugby in the valleys is if the Blues/Dragons play some matches there. Thats about it. People need to move on and accept that.

Don't get me wrong - there is no question that the Ospreys, Blues, Dragons & Scarlets came off very well when the game went pro. But their benefactors didnt bail, and sometimes the strongest survive. Sadly thats the way it is in life. Best to move on.

Welshmushroom wrote:Given that Ponty has a population of 30,000 I fail to see any sense in putting a region there. Is the assumption that fans from other local areas will go to Ponty to watch regional rugby? I think its pushing it somewhat. Cardiff has far more people traveling it from outside the city. Same as Swansea and Newport (Llanelli is the odd one out).

If anyone is likely to be able to drum up support for a 5th Region its the 800,000 North Walians who dont get any pro rugby. Do the 30,000 Ponty fans really believe they have a god given right for pro rugby at the expense of North Wales?

I wish Ponty fans could just accept that Pro Rugby in the valleys will never come back. Dont complain about it. There are loads of teams with heritage who feel miffed at not becoming pro sides (Newbridge, Ebbw Vale, Pontypool etc). Truth is the only reason Ponty and Bridgend was because of Samual's dosh. Once that went it was all over for them.

The best chance of Pro Rugby in the valleys is if the Blues/Dragons play some matches there. Thats about it. People need to move on and accept that.

Don't get me wrong - there is no question that the Ospreys, Blues, Dragons & Scarlets came off very well when the game went pro. But their benefactors didnt bail, and sometimes the strongest survive. Sadly thats the way it is in life. Best to move on.

How many of these 800,000 North Walians like rugby? And would be willing to travel across the sparsely populated, poor infrastructure that is North Wales week in week out? One of my very good friends is from North Wales and he claims in his awful broken English that he is rare rugby fan where he is from.

Also Ponty has got a population of 30,000 but I could kick a ball to Beddau, Bargoed and all the surrounding area and get a very dense population that all love rugby with a good infrastructure that will go to games.

On top of all that I went to Ponty v Neath last year and a crowd of 5000 showed up for that. That's what they get at Rodney Parade and probably more than the Blues will get all of next season.

I think you should pull your head out of the clouds. Two/Three of the four regions are super-clubs not regions and what Valley rugby is proposing sounds like region to me. People go on and on about North Wales but let's not beat around the bush, they don't really care for rugby do they?

They care enough about rugby to have sold out Eirias Park for the under-20s Six Nations matches. And I hope your 'very good friend' doesn't get to hear how you've described his 'awful broken English.'