The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

800,000 is a big fan base whether you like football or rugby. Personally where I am from most are fans of both sports with most prioritising club football first then international rugby. They (North Walians) don't really care much for rugby? Tell that to the 10,000 who regulary turned up to watch a poor Wales U20s team and sang their hearts out. The people of the North are crying out for rugby.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:As long as they're not merged with the Dragons, I don't care what happens to them!

Not keen on the NGC Blue Dragons splitting games between Newport & the Arms Park eh Lucky?

That wouldnt happen anyway. Lets not forget how Cardiff fans bang on and on about some rule that the team that plays at Cardiff Arms Park must have 'Cardiff' in the name so a team called 'Blue Dragons' couldnt play at CAP if you believe what Cardiff fans tell you

There's a lot more potential for a region in North Wales and as an additional bonus it would help tap the lots of rugby talent in that area which can leak out to Sale or RL.

They also don't have as much parochialism as in S Wales, and fans are willing to travel further - rugby fans even travel down to South Wales if they have to (at least further than 12 miles down the road).

Infastructure isn't the best, but then if you live in Caerphilly and don't drive you'd need to catch a train into Cardiff and then out again to Ponty to get to Sardis Road - buses aren't brilliant in the nights in many of the smaller valleys/towns/villages and things do get difficult if you don't drive and don't live on the Merthyr/Pont line or Aberdare/Ponty line.
But then it's nowhere near as difficult as in the old 'Dyfed' are/Scarlets region though the Valleys have the added competition from the Blues/Dragons/Ospreys & Cardiff FC

How a debt ridden club in a little west Wales village where the fans still live off 1972 got 'regional' status I will never know. Well I do know...it was a typical WRU bailout and the self serving piece of work Sturt Gallagher talking a good talk

Steffan wrote:How a debt ridden club in a little west Wales village where the fans still live off 1972 got 'regional' status I will never know. Well I do know...it was a typical WRU bailout and the self serving piece of work Sturt Gallagher talking a good talk

Come back and annoy the boxing board Steff

Not really fair bud. West Wales was and is a rugby heartland, with its own nuances of culture and is different from the vale of Neath. There is nothing to suggest that the Scarlets didn't deserve their regional status.

You could argue that the Scarlets had nothing to do with North Wales, mind...but I won't open that particular can of worms.

Simple question - as a Ponty fan - were you one of the 1,200 who would turn up to watch the Celtic Warriors play?

Steffan wrote:How a debt ridden club in a little west Wales village where the fans still live off 1972 got 'regional' status I will never know. Well I do know...it was a typical WRU bailout and the self serving piece of work Sturt Gallagher talking a good talk

It turned out to be the right decision though. I think that they have a fantastic long term future and have really taken their chance unlike some of the other teams.

oxring wrote:Simple question - as a Ponty fan - were you one of the 1,200 who would turn up to watch the Celtic Warriors play?

Simple answer...yes I was

The Warriors didnt work for a number of reasons. At least they did try and be a region though something which the selfish standalones Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport didnt have to. Dont pretend that the attendances had anything to do with the shutdown though. The WRU stabbed them in the back and thats the bottom line. Well done to the Opsreys for making a region work. What happened back in 2003 is irrelevant now though. 10 years is a long time in profesional rugby. Its a new generation of fans coming through. Valleys rugby is the future. Its not about someone like myself in their 30s anymore its about making sure the Valley youngsters of today have players to support and aspire to. Something that they dont have under the current system as the Dragons and Blues do not know that life exists outside Newport and Cardiff nevermind there are people that watch and play rugby

Steffan wrote:Valleys rugby is the future.

Well that's that, then. Sorry, North Wales.

Steffan wrote:

oxring wrote:Simple question - as a Ponty fan - were you one of the 1,200 who would turn up to watch the Celtic Warriors play?

Simple answer...yes I was

The Warriors didnt work for a number of reasons. At least they did try and be a region though something which the selfish standalones Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport didnt have to. Dont pretend that the attendances had anything to do with the shutdown though. The WRU stabbed them in the back and thats the bottom line. Well done to the Opsreys for making a region work. What happened back in 2003 is irrelevant now though. 10 years is a long time in profesional rugby. Its a new generation of fans coming through. Valleys rugby is the future. Its not about someone like myself in their 30s anymore its about making sure the Valley youngsters of today have players to support and aspire to. Something that they dont have under the current system as the Dragons and Blues do not know that life exists outside Newport and Cardiff nevermind there are people that watch and play rugby

Newport, really? And Scarlets must be doing something right to have the best academies in Wales.

Not sure how valleys rugby is the future, aren't they already working with Newport, Cardiff, Swansea to develop rugby players? . I love how some are convinced this idea would work yet when neighbouring valley clubs play each other you always get 30 man brawls and plenty of foul play.

So just out of interest is it true that the way the Blues are going they could be playing under the Newport banner very soon?

Morgannwg wrote:Ah, KRD. Now that you are here perhaps you could tell us a bit more about how the NZ model works? The clubs, the NPC provinces and the S15 Franchises. How do they all work together through the season and feed each other? I for one am interested to know.

New Zealand's geography plays a big part, we have a similar land area to UK, with under 5 million people so the population is pretty spread out. Rugby-wise the country is divided into 27 (or 26 since the creation of Tasman) provincial unions, which roughly tie up with local governmental divisions. Each province has it's own amateur club competition, with club matches played through autumn and early winter. Marlborough (provincial population just over 30,000) has around 10-12 clubs, with 4 (it used to be 6) in Blenheim (pop ~26,000) plus clubs representing Renwick, the Rapuara area, Picton, Pelorus Sound, the Awatere Valley and Kaikoura. Players from the Marlborough and Nelson club competitions are eligible to be selected for the Tasman team for the INL cup (National Provincial Championship) which is played in late winter/spring. The first division is semi-pro, so the provinces will also sign players to strengthen their teams. A lot of the other smaller/rural provinces play in the amateur "Heartland" 2nd division. Back in the amateur days the 27 provinces were split into 3 divisions, with promotion/relegation, and the Heartland Division still reflects that.

Canterbury is one of the bigger provincial unions, drawing on a population of around 400,000 people in Christchurch and North Canterbury (South Canterbury and Mid Canterbury play in the Heartland Division). There are 3 separate club competitions in the region, the Metro (Chch) one, plus the North Canterbury and Ellesmere rural regions have their own competitions. Most Canterbury players will be registered with one of the amateur clubs, and any who don't have a Super XV contract will play in the club competition (Super Rugby players generally only turn out in club rugby if they're returning from injury).

Before the mid 1970s there was no national competition. Provinces organised matches between themselves, with the main glory being attached to the Ranfurly Shield, a trophy which you won (win) by challenging the holder, and beating them on their turf. The "Log o' Wood" is still played for today but has lost a lot of significance. Regional areas also had trophies, for example Marlborough, Nelson Bays, Buller and West Coast play for the Seddon Shield.

The Super Rugby franchises were initially set up as regional teams, and still pay out any profits to the provincial unions inside their borders on a formula based on registered player numbers. Each franchise has 2 or more Division 1 INL cup teams feeding them, though nowadays the franchises are allowed to directly sign players from anywhere in NZ (the NZRU pays the salaries for all NZ-eligible SXV players via central contracts anyway), hence Israel Dagg and Zac Guildford are signed to the Crusaders despite playing their INL cup rugby for Hawkes Bay, part of the Hurricanes region.

Some of the old provincial divisions have hampered franchises - the Crusaders were lucky in a way that Canterbury was the only "traditional" big union in the top of the South Island, with (before the formation of Tasman) all the other unions being Heartland ones. By contrast, Otago and Southland were bitter rivals, as were Wellington, Taranaki, Manawatu and Hawkes Bay, and Auckland, North Harbour and Northland (the Auckland Blues early Super 12 domination was built almost exclusively on Auckland players, largely ignoring the neighbours' players).

PS, forgot to summarise the season organisation in NZ.

Super rugby runs late summer-mid winter (with a break this year for the June Internationals)
Amateur club rugby runs autumn-mid winter
NPC runs from late July-September
4 Nations is played in August-September

Ultimately the NZ game is geared towards making sure the All Blacks are the best they can be. So the average Kiwi fan will swallow a lot of stuff going on at provincial level as long as the ABs are winning.

Speaking of New Zealand, how ridiculous and self-defeating would it be if the NZRU had no NPC / Super 14 sides on the North Island and everything up there was run so poorly in comparison to the South Island that anyone wanting to further his rugby career had to move? It would be unthinkable, wouldn't it? And yet that's how things are in Wales.

Steffan wrote:

oxring wrote:Simple question - as a Ponty fan - were you one of the 1,200 who would turn up to watch the Celtic Warriors play?

Simple answer...yes I was

The Warriors didnt work for a number of reasons. At least they did try and be a region though something which the selfish standalones Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport didnt have to. Dont pretend that the attendances had anything to do with the shutdown though. The WRU stabbed them in the back and thats the bottom line. Well done to the Opsreys for making a region work. What happened back in 2003 is irrelevant now though. 10 years is a long time in profesional rugby. Its a new generation of fans coming through. Valleys rugby is the future. Its not about someone like myself in their 30s anymore its about making sure the Valley youngsters of today have players to support and aspire to. Something that they dont have under the current system as the Dragons and Blues do not know that life exists outside Newport and Cardiff nevermind there are people that watch and play rugby

They didn't try that hard to be a region, if memory serves - given Samuel's skullduggery - and his business acumen - consisting of repeatedly offering to buy, then withdrawnig the offer, then buying, then threatening to sell, then selling, then withdrawing the sale - all the time accruing toxic debt for the club. They stopped playing at Sardis Road and Samuel was selling on the grounds of "lack of support". I appreciate that 10 years is a long time - but past events have to be taken into account when looking at future potential.

Where is the money for this new venture? How is it going to be afforded? With funds tight as they are - where is the WRU supposed to find this extra £2 million from?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Speaking of New Zealand, how ridiculous and self-defeating would it be if the NZRU had no NPC / Super 14 sides on the North Island and everything up there was run so poorly in comparison to the South Island that anyone wanting to further his rugby career had to move? It would be unthinkable, wouldn't it? And yet that's how things are in Wales.

Given that the South Island has 1 million people and the North over 3m, we'd be in trouble

Christian Cullen was (I think) the last person to make the All Blacks from a Division 2 NPC side (and the 2 provinces who briefly merged to form the ill-fated Central Vikings, Hawkes Bay and Manawatu are both now division 1 unions - albeit in a bigger division than in the old days)

Steffan wrote:The Warriors didnt work for a number of reasons. At least they did try and be a region though something which the selfish standalones Llanelli, Cardiff and Newport didnt have to. Dont pretend that the attendances had anything to do with the shutdown though. The WRU stabbed them Something that they dont have under the current system as the Dragons and Blues do not know that life exists outside Newport and Cardiff nevermind there are people that watch and play rugby

Just a recent example to urine on your chips

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/newsarticle.aspx?n=20935

Unless all four of the Premiership clubs are from Newport. It makes me laugh how the Ospreys are touted as the only true regional side if I'm honest. They aren't. People who call the regions, super clubs just prove their ignorance. I bet all the regions do "regional things" but to your average, clueless "disenfranchised" supporter it won't matter as they'll only try to create negatives to persuade others how hard done by the Valleys allegedly are. I hope we do get another region, but I want North Wales to get it.

By the way, those that mentioned Aaron Coundley, he's been starting at loosehead for Newport recently.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Speaking of New Zealand, how ridiculous and self-defeating would it be if the NZRU had no NPC / Super 14 sides on the North Island and everything up there was run so poorly in comparison to the South Island that anyone wanting to further his rugby career had to move? It would be unthinkable, wouldn't it? And yet that's how things are in Wales.

This has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read. Also if you want to base North Wales getting a region based on three games then perhaps this is how the regions got in this mess? I don't want to get into Holly Wilaboobie-for-tat but I believe if a new region is to be established the potential for it lies in the south, in the Valleys and not, like I said, in a sparsely under developed football loving area of Wales. Why not the heavily populated rugby loving area of the valleys, that appears to be offering a true regional concept?

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Ah, KRD. Now that you are here perhaps you could tell us a bit more about how the NZ model works? The clubs, the NPC provinces and the S15 Franchises. How do they all work together through the season and feed each other? I for one am interested to know.

New Zealand's geography plays a big part, we have a similar land area to UK, with under 5 million people so the population is pretty spread out. Rugby-wise the country is divided into 27 (or 26 since the creation of Tasman) provincial unions, which roughly tie up with local governmental divisions. Each province has it's own amateur club competition, with club matches played through autumn and early winter. Marlborough (provincial population just over 30,000) has around 10-12 clubs, with 4 (it used to be 6) in Blenheim (pop ~26,000) plus clubs representing Renwick, the Rapuara area, Picton, Pelorus Sound, the Awatere Valley and Kaikoura. Players from the Marlborough and Nelson club competitions are eligible to be selected for the Tasman team for the INL cup (National Provincial Championship) which is played in late winter/spring. The first division is semi-pro, so the provinces will also sign players to strengthen their teams. A lot of the other smaller/rural provinces play in the amateur "Heartland" 2nd division. Back in the amateur days the 27 provinces were split into 3 divisions, with promotion/relegation, and the Heartland Division still reflects that.

Canterbury is one of the bigger provincial unions, drawing on a population of around 400,000 people in Christchurch and North Canterbury (South Canterbury and Mid Canterbury play in the Heartland Division). There are 3 separate club competitions in the region, the Metro (Chch) one, plus the North Canterbury and Ellesmere rural regions have their own competitions. Most Canterbury players will be registered with one of the amateur clubs, and any who don't have a Super XV contract will play in the club competition (Super Rugby players generally only turn out in club rugby if they're returning from injury).

Before the mid 1970s there was no national competition. Provinces organised matches between themselves, with the main glory being attached to the Ranfurly Shield, a trophy which you won (win) by challenging the holder, and beating them on their turf. The "Log o' Wood" is still played for today but has lost a lot of significance. Regional areas also had trophies, for example Marlborough, Nelson Bays, Buller and West Coast play for the Seddon Shield.

The Super Rugby franchises were initially set up as regional teams, and still pay out any profits to the provincial unions inside their borders on a formula based on registered player numbers. Each franchise has 2 or more Division 1 INL cup teams feeding them, though nowadays the franchises are allowed to directly sign players from anywhere in NZ (the NZRU pays the salaries for all NZ-eligible SXV players via central contracts anyway), hence Israel Dagg and Zac Guildford are signed to the Crusaders despite playing their INL cup rugby for Hawkes Bay, part of the Hurricanes region.

Some of the old provincial divisions have hampered franchises - the Crusaders were lucky in a way that Canterbury was the only "traditional" big union in the top of the South Island, with (before the formation of Tasman) all the other unions being Heartland ones. By contrast, Otago and Southland were bitter rivals, as were Wellington, Taranaki, Manawatu and Hawkes Bay, and Auckland, North Harbour and Northland (the Auckland Blues early Super 12 domination was built almost exclusively on Auckland players, largely ignoring the neighbours' players).

When I played in NZ I was very impressed with the set up. Everything is truly geared towards the All Blacks and there is so much integration between the different tiers of rugby that you have no other choice but to improve. It's a model that I think, and something that I have written on, van be copied in Wales. I don't think it would work in Ireland or England but most certainly in Wales. It's a great set up with obviously produces world class players, and it baffles me that I didn't get more of a response when I posted it.

I though the Irish set up was similar to the NZ model.


Irish league clubs feed the Provinces, who feed Ireland.

Club>Province>International.

ok there are acamadmies and Provinicial 'A' teams but these are basically grouping the best young club/School players in the Province, to concentrate talent, and coaching etc etc.


If I had my way I'd downgrade the Schools competitions and promote under age club competations instead, and follow the

Club>Province>Internation

Well thanks Kiwi. I guess it works in NZ due to the geography, no. of clubs and interest in the sport. S15 attendances and club attendances don't seem to be too great from what I have seen (same goes for Aus); I'd imagine you would be in trouble if all club rugby was run the same time as the tri/4-nations and any pre-season or end of year tests.

In Wales, I believe it is divided between east and west. There is about 6 league's in the east consisting of about 12 teams, with the lower league's consisting of less I believe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4777229.stm
There has been a boost of playing numbers in recent years which introduced new teams. The winner of the league in the link would usually gain promotion into the Principality Premiership, who as you probably know are the semi-pro clubs acting as feeders to the 4 regions. This is due to change I believe, the number of clubs being lowered at promo/relegation being scrapped. Only amateur clubs in North Wales and now a development region (RGC 1404). Wiki actually sums it up correctly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_rugby_union_clubs_by_division

JayMaster3000 wrote:

When I played in NZ I was very impressed with the set up. Everything is truly geared towards the All Blacks and there is so much integration between the different tiers of rugby that you have no other choice but to improve. It's a model that I think, and something that I have written on, van be copied in Wales. I don't think it would work in Ireland or England but most certainly in Wales. It's a great set up with obviously produces world class players, and it baffles me that I didn't get more of a response when I posted it.

You are right about NZ rugby. The reasons a mirror image don't work for Wales are the season structure, interest in the game at club level (because the game revolves around money in the NH) and the geography. The best we can hope for is to spread the game out (to the North) then try to mirror Irelands model. The valleys are included in the South set-up and their players reap the rewards. It's only some of the fans who bitch and moan.

Morgan,

Dont worry about Ireland or NZ model. Find the Welsh model.

- Play in the Pro 12
- Have a small number of ring fenced teams that have feeder clubs

After that the rest gets tailor made to suit Wales.

Look Steffan I get what your driving at but here is the thing. Given the history and total biased of rugby to the south of wales I think the people of north wales deserve it more. Plus up there given the total lack of pro sports up there the potential is greater for support regardless. Also Wrexham alone has about 5 times the population Ponty has.

I appreciate it wasnt fair when Ponty got binned from pro rugby, I really do.

That said the only way they will ever get pro rugby is at the cost of one of the existing 4 regions and that will never happen unless one goes bust. Also regarding your point on the 5k attendance Ponty got vs Neath. Every single region is getting a minimum attendance of that figure and they are still complaining that funding is an issue. I cant see how Ponty will be sustainable other than as a development team - which would totally destroy the credibility of the league (and I would imagine the Irish and Scottish Unions would share this concern before letting them join the Rabbo).

Personally I think the Blues are probably the worst run region in Wales and Peter Thomas is lucky the WRU keep putting up with his antics. Should they instead give Ponty their status, maybe. Will it happen - no. Case closed.

BTW the only reason that MP is involved is so his name gets in the paper and his popularity rises. He wants to get into power and probably never actually went to a Ponty match in his life.

I vote Plaid Cymru anyway so the Owen Smith Labour MP thing does not effect me in anyway

Agreed that Cardiff Blues are a joke. As for the horrible Pieman...any man willing to pay hundreds of thousands of pounds to play in a stadium that the club doesnt even want to be in anymore deserves no business part in Welsh rugby

Im not saying that a region in Ponty would definitely work but if it cant then at least give the Valleys people a real region to support rather than the self serving stuckup ring fenced superclubs that have the cheek to call themselves a 'region'

Yes Cardiff and Newport you know who you are...

Risca:

Good move by the Dragons just a shame it did not happen 10 years ago, better late than never. Are the Dragons like the Blues making efforts because of this initiative from outside to break into the current gang of 4?

I agree with you, we need a region in Mid/North Wales as a priority, to do this something has to give. The lowest performing region is obvious to everyone so the funding should be either withdrawn from that region or reduced and remove any WRU involvement. This will provide funding for the new region not at the level of the untouched regions unless sponsorship can be found e.g., Airbus UK in North Wales. What N Wales needs is a similar proposal as put forward by the Valley boys and submit to the WRU with their business plan. If the N Wales plan does not happen then serious consideration should be given to the Valleys proposal/plan.

JayMaster - it would definately be stupid to base setting up a NW region on 3 games - but then again I have heard some fans basing a Valleys region one 1 game in Ponty that got 5,000 fans...

Kingshu wrote:I though the Irish set up was similar to the NZ model.


Irish league clubs feed the Provinces, who feed Ireland.

Club>Province>International.

ok there are acamadmies and Provinicial 'A' teams but these are basically grouping the best young club/School players in the Province, to concentrate talent, and coaching etc etc.


If I had my way I'd downgrade the Schools competitions and promote under age club competations instead, and follow the

Club>Province>Internation

I wouldn't say that the Irish model is like the NZ model. In Ireland we have, like you said,-Club>Province> International. In NZ they have a four tier system of Club>Province>Franchise>International. But the real reason I think the NZ system works so well is the integration of these four tiers which is allowed through a staggered season.

For example I played against Jimmy Cowan's little brother in the Club season but as soon as the NPC started he was training with the Southland Stags who has guys like Jamie Macintosh, the Highlanders captain. In my club we even had a one or two Super rugby guys come down and play at the tail end of the season. So by the end of the season we had X amount of NPC players, X amount of Super rugby players and then the rest of us normal club players who got the chance to train and play with/against these guys.

In Ireland we kind of have that with the AIB but no where near to same extent. Like I've trained with Ulster academy and a few fringe players but never any of the real Ulster boys and I think that is the difference. We're lacking a tier of full integration.

Morgannwg wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:

When I played in NZ I was very impressed with the set up. Everything is truly geared towards the All Blacks and there is so much integration between the different tiers of rugby that you have no other choice but to improve. It's a model that I think, and something that I have written on, van be copied in Wales. I don't think it would work in Ireland or England but most certainly in Wales. It's a great set up with obviously produces world class players, and it baffles me that I didn't get more of a response when I posted it.

You are right about NZ rugby. The reasons a mirror image don't work for Wales are the season structure, interest in the game at club level (because the game revolves around money in the NH) and the geography. The best we can hope for is to spread the game out (to the North) then try to mirror Irelands model. The valleys are included in the South set-up and their players reap the rewards. It's only some of the fans who bitch and moan.

If I had my way in Wales the first thing I would do is attempt to mirror the NZ set up by simply moving the Welsh Premiership to the summer. I think Wales have the player pool, support and money to have a NPC type league. All the best players from the Winter's club season, the regular Premiership guys with a few regional lads. Wales would be breeding success quicker than any other Home Nation.

JayMaster3000 wrote:
If I had my way in Wales the first thing I would do is attempt to mirror the NZ set up by simply moving the Welsh Premiership to the summer

I suggested this on a thread before but most people were against the idea

Steffan wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:
If I had my way in Wales the first thing I would do is attempt to mirror the NZ set up by simply moving the Welsh Premiership to the summer

I suggested this on a thread before but most people were against the idea

Yeah I started a whole thread and had like 5 or so posts. To my simple mind it makes the most sense to try and copy the best nation in the world. Maybe there are cons we are just not seeing?

Steffan wrote: Im not saying that a region in Ponty would definitely work but if it cant then at least give the Valleys people a real region to support rather than the self serving stuckup ring fenced superclubs that have the cheek to call themselves a 'region'

Yes Cardiff and Newport you know who you are...

So you're idea is to get rid of one of the other regions and replace them with a Valleys region so at least the Valleys have a region to support to support. Never minding the fact that it's not actually the Scarlets, Ospreys or Dragons job to provide Rhondda Cynon Taf with pro-rugby - the Scarlets job is to offer pro-rugby to the South West Wales are, which it does well, hence the number of fans from Pembroke, Llandovery, Carmarthen and Yes Llanelli.
The Ospreys job is to provide pro-rugby for everywhere from Swansea to Bridgend and Port Talbot to Ystradgynlais - which seeing the spread of Ospreys shirt wearing fans through the region (and even as far as Ponty) their doing a decent job.
Dragons job is to provide pro-rugby for what is effect Gwent and they have lots of fans from Newport, Blackwood, Ebbw, Cwmbran and Pontypool and even from Abergavenny so I'm told.

But you're plan is to deprive on of these areas of pro-rugby so that Sardis Rd can have a pro-rugby regional team again.

And for Steffan - for your info the 'village' that the Scarlets are based in has a population of 46k and is one of the biggest towns in Wales - almost double the size of Ponty

Morgannwg wrote:Well thanks Kiwi. I guess it works in NZ due to the geography, no. of clubs and interest in the sport. S15 attendances and club attendances don't seem to be too great from what I have seen (same goes for Aus); I'd imagine you would be in trouble if all club rugby was run the same time as the tri/4-nations and any pre-season or end of year tests.

In Wales, I believe it is divided between east and west. There is about 6 league's in the east consisting of about 12 teams, with the lower league's consisting of less I believe. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4777229.stm
There has been a boost of playing numbers in recent years which introduced new teams. The winner of the league in the link would usually gain promotion into the Principality Premiership, who as you probably know are the semi-pro clubs acting as feeders to the 4 regions. This is due to change I believe, the number of clubs being lowered at promo/relegation being scrapped. Only amateur clubs in North Wales and now a development region (RGC 1404). Wiki actually sums it up correctly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Welsh_rugby_union_clubs_by_division

No worries mate. Attendances in Super rugby are better than you think though, while they're not always selling out the grounds they're also big grounds. 45,000 came to Eden Park for the opening match between the Blues and Crusaders for example. Crowds did drop off a bit in 2008-09 with the public cheesed off at the RWC exit the year before despite a lot of ABs being rested from Super rugby, plus NZ got the global recession earlier than Europe.

Crowds are up significantly this year apparently, even in Dunedin - the Highlanders only have 3 Otago players this season, and for some reason Dunedin has fallen out of love with rugby to a degree. Southland has more loyalty when games are in Invercargill, but the population is a lot lower (Dunedin to Invercargill is a 3 hour drive, and there are no passenger trains down there). INL cup attendances have actually improved somewhat too, though they vary a lot from region to region.

At club level it's hard to say, as it's often free to stand on the sideline, not many clubs in the provinces have seating (my parents live 5 minutes walk from the local club ground, and they regularly wander around to watch). Renwick is a town of 1900 people and they'll have a hundred or so on the sidelines.

JayMaster3000 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:
If I had my way in Wales the first thing I would do is attempt to mirror the NZ set up by simply moving the Welsh Premiership to the summer

I suggested this on a thread before but most people were against the idea

Yeah I started a whole thread and had like 5 or so posts. To my simple mind it makes the most sense to try and copy the best nation in the world. Maybe there are cons we are just not seeing?

Well it's actually a good idea, but would mean we would need agreement from the other Celtic Unions if we were to stay in the B & I cup, which is a cup competition that I am all for. How soon would the Prem finish before the Rabo Celtic League begins?

Personally, I would like to see the 6 Nations start end of March if we are going to get good weather like we had. There is also less chance of snow/game postponements. It's a shame though because as I said, to implement these changes would require a NH season restructure and probably lose the AI's/end of year tours.

[quote]

JayMaster3000 wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Speaking of New Zealand, how ridiculous and self-defeating would it be if the NZRU had no NPC / Super 14 sides on the North Island and everything up there was run so poorly in comparison to the South Island that anyone wanting to further his rugby career had to move? It would be unthinkable, wouldn't it? And yet that's how things are in Wales.

This has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read. Also if you want to base North Wales getting a region based on three games then perhaps this is how the regions got in this mess? I don't want to get into Holly Wilaboobie-for-tat but I believe if a new region is to be established the potential for it lies in the south, in the Valleys and not, like I said, in a sparsely under developed football loving area of Wales. Why not the heavily populated rugby loving area of the valleys, that appears to be offering a true regional concept?

JayMaster3000 That has to be one of the most uninformed replies that I have seen on here.You need to look at the bigger picture a North Wales region is needed so we can search for talent all over Wales we cant simply ignore a third of the population,
The regions are in a mess due to all the immature stubborn rugby politics of the South and thats something a North Wales region will not be burdened with.
If we invest in a region down south when we already have four struggling regions there then the tag of village idiots of world rugby would be well placed.
You said that North Wales is a sparsely under developed football loving area ... Well yes you are correct about being underdeveloped in rugby terms but that is due to having officials in the WRU with the same blinkered attitude as yourself who are only interested in their own patch. By the way when the regions get anywhere near the attendances of your football clubs maybe then your troubles will be over but I suggest you think again who the football loving areas of Wales are.
I travel regularly from North Wales to watch the regions play but most of you down there wont even travel a few miles down the road because granddad brainwashed you.

Morgannwg wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:

Steffan wrote:

JayMaster3000 wrote:
If I had my way in Wales the first thing I would do is attempt to mirror the NZ set up by simply moving the Welsh Premiership to the summer

I suggested this on a thread before but most people were against the idea

Yeah I started a whole thread and had like 5 or so posts. To my simple mind it makes the most sense to try and copy the best nation in the world. Maybe there are cons we are just not seeing?

Well it's actually a good idea, but would mean we would need agreement from the other Celtic Unions if we were to stay in the B & I cup, which is a cup competition that I am all for. How soon would the Prem finish before the Rabo Celtic League begins?

Personally, I would like to see the 6 Nations start end of March if we are going to get good weather like we had. There is also less chance of snow/game postponements. It's a shame though because as I said, to implement these changes would require a NH season restructure and probably lose the AI's/end of year tours.

I am not to sure if it would require a complete remodel of the Northern Hemisphere schedule, I would argue only for Wales- as it is only really effecting the Welsh domestic league. I would suggest that everything stays the same, such as the Rabo and European cup with the exception of the of the WP. Start the league around May and have it finished by September. Shouldn't really effect anyone, maybe a few holidays but that's it.

In the thread I started I suggested that the B&I Cup should definitely stay and be used as the development tool it suppose to be used as. If you could imagine all the young guys, different combinations and potential clubs players being played in preparation for the Summer WP league, and then perhaps starting the club season of with a final for the B&I Cup, that would add some flavour and prestige to whatever team could beat the B&I Champions throughout the regular club season.
Also with some of the talk/ideas on the boards of having a Millennium Stadium double header with the regions to start the season, perhaps then if it ever happened the WRU could add an extra game of the final of the WP? One day, three games, some craic.

Also I completely agree about moving the 6nations. Like I said everything in NZ is geared towards getting the best out of the All Blacks. Such as they would play the Tri-Nations then come up here and hammer all of us. What we do, is take a hammering in the Autumn Internationals, then have a break, then play the 6nations, then a have another break, then go on tour after a few months apart and take a hammering.
I say move it, just not for the better running rugby that would on offer because of the warmer weather but then it will give out nations a fighting chance of beating the All Blacks in New Zealand- or Oz or SA. Like I said I completely agree with you.

Also just another thought. If they were to agree to move the 6nations and the WP then when the 6nations is being played, and the regular Rabo season is done then perhaps the WP teams could have a few more regional players to bulk up their teams. Just the way New Zealand do it.

[quote="Cymroglan"]

JayMaster3000 wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Speaking of New Zealand, how ridiculous and self-defeating would it be if the NZRU had no NPC / Super 14 sides on the North Island and everything up there was run so poorly in comparison to the South Island that anyone wanting to further his rugby career had to move? It would be unthinkable, wouldn't it? And yet that's how things are in Wales.

This has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read. Also if you want to base North Wales getting a region based on three games then perhaps this is how the regions got in this mess? I don't want to get into Holly Wilaboobie-for-tat but I believe if a new region is to be established the potential for it lies in the south, in the Valleys and not, like I said, in a sparsely under developed football loving area of Wales. Why not the heavily populated rugby loving area of the valleys, that appears to be offering a true regional concept?

JayMaster3000 That has to be one of the most uninformed replies that I have seen on here.You need to look at the bigger picture a North Wales region is needed so we can search for talent all over Wales we cant simply ignore a third of the population,
The regions are in a mess due to all the immature stubborn rugby politics of the South and thats something a North Wales region will not be burdened with.
If we invest in a region down south when we already have four struggling regions there then the tag of village idiots of world rugby would be well placed.
You said that North Wales is a sparsely under developed football loving area ... Well yes you are correct about being underdeveloped in rugby terms but that is due to having officials in the WRU with the same blinkered attitude as yourself who are only interested in their own patch. By the way when the regions get anywhere near the attendances of your football clubs maybe then your troubles will be over but I suggest you think again who the football loving areas of Wales are.
I travel regularly from North Wales to watch the regions play but most of you down there wont even travel a few miles down the road because granddad brainwashed you.

Unfortunately I am not one of these people that has been brain washed by my grandfather to hate the regions and love your local valley club, based mostly on the fact that I am from Northern Ireland. Now of course you wonder what gives me the right to comment?? Well of course I live in Wales. Have been for the last 3 years and will probably for the next 3 years, until my Welsh girlfriend is done with her second degree. So I think I am justified in hopefully giving my objective opinion.
Now in my objective opinion I still feel if a 5th region is to open it would be best suited in South Wales. Let's not beat around the bush. The third of the population of Wales is simply not as interested in rugby, it is football. Why would you open a club in an area where you have to compete with people's love for Manchester United or whatever crap teams there are. In terms of searching for talent, why go t an area who does not embrace the national sport? Go to the heartlands, like the Valleys. I haven't got a "patch" I have support Ulster but I can clearly see that the lack of rugby clubs have nothing to do with the WRU but the people of North Wales not wanting to play rugby, so there is not as many rugby clubs.
Not sure what you mean about the football clubs?

The one thing I do love about Wales is the fact that you guys are so tribal. Even in NZ I have never seen clubs so close to each other that hate each other! Which I presume why the Celtic Warriors were never supported. But it appears that the battle lines have been redrawn again. And, even though I am not sure if another region will work, or is even a good idea, I think based on the apathy for the regions could probably create a strong region, that has the best chance of surviving in the Valleys and not in North Wales. As I said already, though I couldn't understand what anyone was saying in time in North Wales I saw more MU shirts and football goalposts and fields upon fields upon slate quarries that do suggest that a pro-rugby team would survive or produce as much talent.

There is no region in North Wales so of course the youngsters will look for another sport to follow,
There are several rugby teams in North Wales with all of them also fielding age grade rugby sides it's not the lack of interest in North Wales that's the problem it's the lack of interest by the WRU for the last 100 years that's held us back.
Whenever a North Wales side has won promotion it's always been vetoed by the WRU due to the fact that the Southern based clubs did not want to travel up here but the North Wales club were looking forward to playing down south.
North Wales has no major sport so a region up here would not be in competition with any other sport sponsorship would not be a problem.

I value your opinions on Welsh rugby but it's very uninformed.

Stone. Ponty would have brought the support. Just because Samuel was the money man at the warriors, they played mainly at the Brewery. Bridgend should have been joined to the ospreys and the valleys had their own region. Bridgend hasn't got the fan base.
I think a 5th region could only go to the valleys and I bet they'd attract big crowds. My big worry, with so many players going abroad is just how strong these regions will be. There is no way that our 4 regions will compete in the HC next season and a 5th will weaken us further.
5th region in north Wales?? I thought we put that argument to bed 2 weeks ago. Why dont we stick a region on flat holm!!!

manofgwent why not support the existing regions first and when they are full week in week out then and only then would I feel you have the right to another region.

Cymroglian.
I'm a Dragons season ticket holder unfortunately. I can only do my bit. I can't follow the other 3 too. The regions are in a mess and so too my dragons, but north Wales isn't the answer. I've been following Newport, then the dragons since 1985, so I'm fairly confident with my knowledge of the state of the game.

Went to Lisbon on a stag do last weekend and JPR was on our flight to and from Lisbon. He also wrote a piece about how he wants the regions to die and so back to the old structure. I'm not quite in his camp, but I think the Rabies league is a poor product.

Why do you feel that North Wales is not the answer ? why should the youngsters of North Wales not have the same opportunities as their counterparts in the South.
The regions are in a mess due to all the politics and a region outside the fishbowl is what we need and it's also what the players need.
We up here in the north have been neglected for far too long it's disheartening for all the club officials up here that they are in a constant battle with the WRU the WRU are quick in taking subs but reluctant to show any support.

Cymroglan wrote:Why do you feel that North Wales is not the answer ? why should the youngsters of North Wales not have the same opportunities as their counterparts in the South.
The regions are in a mess due to all the politics and a region outside the fishbowl is what we need and it's also what the players need.
We up here in the north have been neglected for far to long it's disheartening for all the club officials up here that they are in a constant battle with the WRU the WRU are quick in taking subs but reluctant to show any support.

Because North Wales is not the problem, I guess.
Until the deep South is sorted, I doubt very much anything will happen up North.
Talking of North, he done alright living in Anglesey.
Also, I didn't realise till now that George was born in England and his Dad is English.
Raised in Wales mostly mind you and his Mum is Welsh.

His father was based on RAF Valley Anglesey but got posted to King's Lynn Norfolk, Janet his mother is Anglesey born. The North family returned back to Anglesey after a stint in Hong Kong. George was two years old when they settled back in Wales.

Well firstly. Where is all this talent? I'll give you George North, but who else has come through? If they're good enough they will make it. There are small clubs throughout the valleys that are producing top talent. What are north Wales producing?
If North Wales comes into existence in September. What will the team look like. If will need to compete in the in the Rabies league. You would need to ship 30 players from south Wales to the north. What's the point in that? If north Wales had a dozen good players, then I'd day fine, but north Wales couldn't even compete in the premiership!
North Wales isn't a hot bed of rugby. I feel sorry that you aren't included and we are the lucky ones in the south, but I don't see things changing.

Rob McCusker, Effion Lewis-Roberts, Andy Fenby (I don't rate him) and Rhodri Jones I think. Pretty sure there is more from the North. And they don't have a semi-pro/pro team to go into at senior level or academies at younger levels to answer your question as to where are all their players.

JayMaster3000 wrote:
The one thing I do love about Wales is the fact that you guys are so tribal.

A virtue that should have been embraced, but unfortunately the veil of "regionalism" ie to appear to be fair to all, required this strength to be hidden from view, so now it is very much a weakness.

George North partly made it because a scout from Llandovery College (in Carmarthenshire, Scarlet land) spotted him and offered him a place in the College (which is an amazing place for rugby, loads of pro Wales players went/go there)


Robin McBryde is from the North also. There has always been a history of great players coming from the North, but only in dribs and drabs. Imagine how much talent is up there untapped that has been ignored for years!

The talent is here but they are not getting the opportunities, The North's McCusker's and co are forced to move to get any chance of playing top flight rugby.
Thinking that players come from clubs is getting a bit old fashioned these days players are discovered at a far younger age and moved into academies.
This hotbed stuff is a load of nonsense if a area is neglected for a 100 years is no excuse to continue neglecting it.
What you and a few others want is a region on your doorstep but my vision is far broader than that. My hope is that we have regions that cover all of Wales rather than have them all bunched up in one small area.
No other major rugby nation would ignore a third of the population especially when they have a small population like ours.

I agree with Cymro and I'd say there are hotbeds for rugby in Wales. They are Swansea/Llanelli and not the valleys.

rugbydreamer wrote:George North partly made it because a scout from Llandovery College (in Carmarthenshire, Scarlet land) spotted him and offered him a place in the College (which is an amazing place for rugby, loads of pro Wales players went/go there)


Robin McBryde is from the North also. There has always been a history of great players coming from the North, but only in dribs and drabs. Imagine how much talent is up there untapped that has been ignored for years!

A lad from my village has also won a place there via the rugby route, Keep your eye out for Sion Hughes our future hooker

Cymroglan wrote:His father was based on RAF Valley Anglesey but got posted to King's Lynn Norfolk, Janet his mother is Anglesey born. The North family returned back to Anglesey after a stint in Hong Kong. George was two years old when they settled back in Wales.

He's Welsh then.
As long as a player wears the jersey with pride, I don't give a toss about their roots or this and that. Doesn't matter to me, not one jot.
The same can be said about players who wear the Cardiff jersey. Don't care what nationality they are.