The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

Morganwwg. The valleys is not a hot bed of rugby???? Phenomenal statement.
The reason the regions are in the south, is because that's where Wales is most populated.
Take a look at Super league. Wigan, ST Helens, Wakefield, Widnes, etc. You could throw a blanket over them. They've branched out with Harlequins and the Crusaders, but the true hot bed is in the north.
Valleys not a hot bed!!! Genius

Why do you need another region when you already have four.

Wakefield alone has a similar population to Cardiff

Know a fella from Pontypridd and he was saying how delighted they are to finally have a proper team after the whole warriors fiasco. He believes crowds won't be an issue considering how good their crowds are at the moment.


He said, "I am one of the people who will be buying a share in the first true region and there's plenty more where that came from"

This true region is a load of rubbish, True fans of the game would forget the politics and get behind their nearest region.

Cymroglian. Not sure what you're getting at.

The valleys would probably be the best supported region.

Why would it be ? do you base this on the support of the other regions.

I could also say that a North Wales region would be far better supported than the existing regions due to the fact that there would not be any tribal wars.

Cymroglan wrote:This true region is a load of rubbish.

Agreed and if you had attended the Cardiff v Ulster game at Cardiff Arms Park not so long ago, you'd have got the message loud and clear in no uncertain terms.

Cymroglian. You're optimistic beyond belief. You think the north should have a region. I don't. Brace yourself for the fact it won't happen anyway. If the north had a region over the valleys, it would be a crime.
Give the north a prem team and watch them slip into obscurity!

All I want is the best for Wales the location of the regions does not bother me as long as they cover all of Wales, And we all know that they certainly do not do that at the present time.

What does annoy me though is the reluctance of so called rugby fans to go and support a region that's not in their town or Valley.
I live on Anglesey and it certainly would not bother me if I had to do the three hour round trip to see a Wrexham based region play.
The regions have been around for 10 years now and that should have been more than enough time to embrace the new regions.
Over the years I have defended the regions when people keep going on about the poor turnout but I have given up doing that because they are right in what they say.
This club history excuse is getting rather embarrassing now.

Cymroglan wrote:Why would it be ? do you base this on the support of the other regions.

I could also say that a North Wales region would be far better supported than the existing regions due to the fact that there would not be any tribal wars.

Cardiff by just being Cardiff at the Arms Park would be a better supported rugby team than any of the existing pretend "regions" if those in charge had the balls to do what was necessary. At the moment they haven't, but i'm hopeful things may change. Very soon actually.

manofgwent wrote:Cymroglian. You're optimistic beyond belief. You think the north should have a region. I don't. Brace yourself for the fact it won't happen anyway. If the north had a region over the valleys, it would be a crime.
Give the north a prem team and watch them slip into obscurity!

Yes of course I believe that the north should have a region because it's in Wales and it's also a large chunk of Wales.
North Wales youngsters lost to Georgia last weekend by a similar score that the best of the premiership did.
I'm not even sure why you are bringing the premiership into this ? I'm sure that you are aware that academies are the way forward.
The Valleys already has four regions all they need to do is go out and support one of them

Cymroglian. That shows how little you know. It would be like everyon going out of business and saying to their fans, go and support Liverpool. You can call it tribalism, but if the dragons were disbanded and I was told I could go and support the Blues. Then I just wouldnt bother. How can you support something that you aren't passionate about. You can't support your bitterest rival. You just can't. As a Dragons fan, I'm hoping to see Leinster rack up 60 points tomorrow night.

You have hit the nail on the head and that is exactly the reason that the new region needs to be outside the fishbowl.
I'm extremely passionate about my rugby and that's why it's disheartening to find so many empty seats down there when I have to do a eight+ hours round trip to watch one of the regions play.
New region wont work down there because the old fashioned attitudes are still as strong as ever

Cymroglan wrote:All I want is the best for Wales the location of the regions does not bother me as long as they cover all of Wales, And we all know that they certainly do not do that at the present time.

What does annoy me though is the reluctance of so called rugby fans to go and support a region that's not in their town or Valley.
I live on Anglesey and it certainly would not bother me if I had to do the three hour round trip to see a Wrexham based region play.
The regions have been around for 10 years now and that should have been more than enough time to embrace the new regions.
Over the years I have defended the regions when people keep going on about the poor turnout but I have given up doing that because they are right in what they say.
This club history excuse is getting rather embarrassing now.

So basically you have absolutely no idea of what is really going on in Welsh rugby? Are you a season ticket holder by any chance?

The biggest problem, is not the regions, but the structure of our season. The Rabies is an awful competition. Our regions are never at full strength, nor are the opposition. The league has good names eg Munster, Leinster and Ulster, bur they're virtually always weakened. The new football stadiums don't attract fans. Kick off times are all over the shop. As a seasonnticket holder, even I didn't go to our home game v Glasgow. 5pm on a Sunday!!! Seriously. This is what's wrong. People want to watch sport on a Saturday afternoon. There are barely any rivalries anymore and frankly I pretreated being a fan 15 years ago. JPR is right in many ways, but I'm not too sure what the solution is myself.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:All I want is the best for Wales the location of the regions does not bother me as long as they cover all of Wales, And we all know that they certainly do not do that at the present time.

What does annoy me though is the reluctance of so called rugby fans to go and support a region that's not in their town or Valley.
I live on Anglesey and it certainly would not bother me if I had to do the three hour round trip to see a Wrexham based region play.
The regions have been around for 10 years now and that should have been more than enough time to embrace the new regions.
Over the years I have defended the regions when people keep going on about the poor turnout but I have given up doing that because they are right in what they say.
This club history excuse is getting rather embarrassing now.

So basically you have absolutely no idea of what is really going on in Welsh rugby? Are you a season ticket holder by any chance?

Are you serious? Do honestly expect me to buy a season ticket for all four regions ?
Dave you are not fans of rugby what you are fans of is a old fashioned concept.

So all fans of the regions aren't fans of rugby? I'm really confused. No hang on......put a region in Mold and all our problems are solved. I reckon 20,000 fans will go and watch the north play Connacht on a Thursday at the Racecourse. They'll have all the Dross that the other regions don't want. Problem solved.

manofgwent
I'm not sure why you are so against North Wales having a region I'm perfectly happy for you to have four of them.
Why should we not go all out and search for talent up here in the north surely that can only be a good thing for Welsh rugby.
I don't think that support would be a problem here but it cant be any worse than the support some of our existing regions get week in week out.

I think it will be worse. Initially it would probably be ok, but in the long run, people would see how poor the competition is and attendances would drop off. Seriously. Your suggestion is laughable.

manofgwent
What is laughable is suggesting a region should be formed in a area that already has four regions who are struggling to keep their heads above water.
I wish you luck but I believe that common sense will win the day.

Cymroglan wrote:

Are you serious? Do honestly expect me to buy a season ticket for all four regions ?
Dave you are not fans of rugby what you are fans of is a old fashioned concept.

Who is your team then?
By the way I watched my old fashioned team get battered by Toulouse not long ago. It was in Toulouse, but I was there. Cost me a fortune too.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Are you serious? Do honestly expect me to buy a season ticket for all four regions ?
Dave you are not fans of rugby what you are fans of is a old fashioned concept.

Who is your team then?
By the way I watched my old fashioned team get battered by Toulouse not long ago. It was in Toulouse, but I was there. Cost me a fortune too.

Read my profile Wait I shall copy and paste it ... Team/Sports Followed: Wales and all the Regions

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Are you serious? Do honestly expect me to buy a season ticket for all four regions ?
Dave you are not fans of rugby what you are fans of is a old fashioned concept.

Who is your team then?
By the way I watched my old fashioned team get battered by Toulouse not long ago. It was in Toulouse, but I was there. Cost me a fortune too.

Read my profile Wait I shall copy and paste it ... Team/Sports Followed: Wales and all the Regions

I have read your profile and "Wales and all the Regions" speaks volumes.

Yes its ridiculous to have a region in Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli. They should be in Brecon, Ebbw Vale, Prestatyn and Aberystwyth. Absolute madness!! Swansea, Cardiff and Newport are the 3 most highly populated places in Wales. Forget their history and that they have facilities and already had a fan base. They are the biggest cities in Wales. If you think this is madness, then yes, madness will prevail.
I would imagine that more than three quarters of the population of Wales is in the south. That's not our fault. We're lucky to have it on our doorstep, but I just don't think the north has shown enough to be given a region. Far from it.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Are you serious? Do honestly expect me to buy a season ticket for all four regions ?
Dave you are not fans of rugby what you are fans of is a old fashioned concept.

Who is your team then?
By the way I watched my old fashioned team get battered by Toulouse not long ago. It was in Toulouse, but I was there. Cost me a fortune too.

Read my profile Wait I shall copy and paste it ... Team/Sports Followed: Wales and all the Regions

I have read your profile and "Wales and all the Regions" speaks volumes.

Why does it speak volumes? I support Wales first because I'm Welsh and I support all the regions because at the moment I just see them as feeder clubs to the national side.
If and when we get a North Wales region then of course I will buy a season ticket with them and they will become my region.

If not when. Don't rush to the bookies to put money on it. Still. The WRU have done some stupid things before!!!!!

manofgwent wrote:Yes its ridiculous to have a region in Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli. They should be in Brecon, Ebbw Vale, Prestatyn and Aberystwyth. Absolute madness!! Swansea, Cardiff and Newport are the 3 most highly populated places in Wales. Forget their history and that they have facilities and already had a fan base. They are the biggest cities in Wales. If you think this is madness, then yes, madness will prevail.
I would imagine that more than three quarters of the population of Wales is in the south. That's not our fault. We're lucky to have it on our doorstep, but I just don't think the north has shown enough to be given a region. Far from it.

Population size means nothing if the stadiums are half empty.6000 people watched the 1404 play Georgia last week the regions are lucky to get that in a HC match also the U20s broke the attendance record at Eirias Park it was a a full house for all the home games.
North Wales should not need to prove anything it's not a competition for who's the best or biggest the region is needed here so we can try and produce strength in depth.

DELUDED. you won't get support because the competition is so bad. You'll get the initial interest, but that's it. You only got good crowds for the u 20's because you don't see any live rugby up there, but once you get it week in, week out, people will lose interest.
You should be a politician. I don't even know why I'm having a debate about something that is so ridiculous it'll never happen.
Wale up.

manofgwent wrote:DELUDED. you won't get support because the competition is so bad. You'll get the initial interest, but that's it. You only got good crowds for the u 20's because you don't see any live rugby up there, but once you get it week in, week out, people will lose interest.
You should be a politician. I don't even know why I'm having a debate about something that is so ridiculous it'll never happen.
Wale up.

I could understand your argument if your stadiums were full but they are really struggling, You seem to be getting agitated and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way that was not my intention in any shape or form.
I would be very supportive of a fifth region being based in the south if there was a need for it and if the existing regions were playing to packed stadiums.
The failures of the south should not be used as a excuse to scupper the plans of having a north Wales region, Let's have regions that cover all of Wales that's what any other country would do but we just put them all in one small area.
You have four regions so let's see how a North Wales region gets on in the real world, I'm very confident that it will be a success.

Its the same as the Crusaders Rugby League. North Wales turned up for the first home game which was a sellout...and after that poor crowds. It would be the same with Rugby Union. Give north Wales a Premiership side by all means. But a region...forget it

Cymroglan wrote:

Why does it speak volumes? I support Wales first because I'm Welsh and I support all the regions because at the moment I just see them as feeder clubs to the national side.

QED.

Steffan wrote:Its the same as the Crusaders Rugby League. North Wales turned up for the first home game which was a sellout...and after that poor crowds. It would be the same with Rugby Union. Give north Wales a Premiership side by all means. But a region...forget it

Steffan I do not know anybody that went to see the Crusaders but there again I don't know many rugby league fans.
Using a RL match to judge the interest in RU is quite a strange thing to do.
I guess some enjoy both codes but I certainly have no interest in RL

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Why does it speak volumes? I support Wales first because I'm Welsh and I support all the regions because at the moment I just see them as feeder clubs to the national side.

QED.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Dave I'm not sure what you are trying to get at you seem to be speaking in riddles.
Do you expect me to choose a region buy a season ticket for it and claim that region to be my own ?

Cymroglan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Why does it speak volumes? I support Wales first because I'm Welsh and I support all the regions because at the moment I just see them as feeder clubs to the national side.

QED.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

Dave I'm not sure what you are trying to get at you seem to be speaking in riddles.
Do you expect me to choose a region buy a season ticket for it and claim that region to be my own ?

As you say, you support team Wales and you're Welsh. Good for you.

Cymroglan wrote:
The failures of the south should not be used as a excuse to scupper the plans of having a north Wales region, Let's have regions that cover all of Wales that's what any other country would do but we just put them all in one small area.
You have four regions so let's see how a North Wales region gets on in the real world, I'm very confident that it will be a success.

If you have any good ideas Cymroglan, then tell them to the bloke in charge of the WRU? Roger would welcome you with loving arms. Do you have a buisness plan though, with ££££££££££ signs on it? Otherwise that might be a problem.

JayMaster3000 wrote:

luckless_pedestrian wrote:Speaking of New Zealand, how ridiculous and self-defeating would it be if the NZRU had no NPC / Super 14 sides on the North Island and everything up there was run so poorly in comparison to the South Island that anyone wanting to further his rugby career had to move? It would be unthinkable, wouldn't it? And yet that's how things are in Wales.

This has to be one of the most stupid things I have ever read.

Why is that? Where is the analogy wrong?

i welcome jay's radical comments on the structuring of the season.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

"A virtue that should have been embraced, but unfortunately the veil of "regionalism" ie to appear to be fair to all, required this strength to be hidden from view, so now it is very much a weakness."

Does this mean your in favour of club rugby?

IF it does (and this comment goes to those who still think club rugby is the way forward including grandad williams stuck in the 70's) the standard of welsh players will drop pure and simple. Increase the number of pro teams and all you do is further dilute the talent in wales. To play at the top level in wales atm you need to be in effect one of the top welsh players 120 players (based on 4 squads of 30-even though we all know there is more, some of the fringe players even atm are not quite up to standard). Therefore to get to this standard you have to be pretty good and work bloody hard from the thousands of kids that play the game week in week out as youngsters. If you add more teams your opening the door to more players and making it easier for them to reach the top.

Thats why on the playing side the CONCEPT of regionalism has to be stuck to (even though what we have now was not the original design and has been distorted by people with self serving interests and others too stuck in their tribal roots...and im talking about the clubs who demanded stand alone status cardiff newport llanelli)

On the business side the concept works as well, the idea being that you will support a player from your home town/village/club playing representative rugby at the highest level and will go to watch them succeed. Again the politics ruined this concept but AGAIN diluting the fan base across 5,6 or 8 teams will only further spread the money available in wales again to the detriment of the national side.

At the end of the day the regional concept was adhered to first and foremost to improve the standard of players of the national side, this has happened 3 GS in 8 years proves this, and people who say the success for these was built from pre regions are having a laugh!

Another arguement ive heard is the coaching is better now and this is why weve had success which is nothing to do with the regions, again i think this is wrong.

1. The reason we can afford the best coaches is because there is more money in the game in wales because the WRU is not trying to fund 8-12 top teams
2. Talented coaches will rise through the ranks having ot be the best due to the limited vacancies at the 4 teams
3. Welsh internationals can no longer rest on their laurels anymore, think back to the nineties the mainstay of the team knew they would never be dropped, now you have even a british lion like Roberts looking over his shoulder at the likes of Scott Williams and Ashley Beck due to the increase inn standard of domestic rugby. This means that even when back on regional duty all the players are under immense competition to keep their place, competition drives up the standard of the players and the game in wales..

I understand peoples points about the fact that the standard of the Rabbo at times is poor with passionless games played out in passionless stadiums and i agree that something needs to be done to shake things up but i assure you for the reasons mentioned above a return to club rugby is not the answer. To the people who argue all we have now is 4 superclubs i can sympathise and agree that something needs to be done, if the regions are in as much trouble financially as they say they are the WRU could step in and have the power to make them adhere to the regional principle, be that through amalgamating certain teams or otherwise i dont know, but again i cant argue enough the concept of regionalism or four teams needs to stay.

As ive pointed out above i am fully in favour of the valleys concept and hope they get it off the ground, and even though im a dragons fan who went to uni in pontypridd and now lives in Cardiff. I would give my ton on the premise of me NOT going to watch games (i play most weekends anyhow so my ability to go to games is limited) but the fact that that £100 gives me avote to how the region is run is very appealing, and i would use that vote to ensure that the region sticks to it word and plays in ebbw vale, merthyr and elsewhere to ensure they engage a wide a fan base as possible, you look at other models of business where for example the employees own the company (John Lewis) they tend to do very well as all shareholders (employees/fans) get something out of venture. Imagine if you were part of something that you had a say on, you had ownership of, you saw succeed and you could determine how the proceeds of that success could be shared out. Its a powerful model and like i said providing rugby politics dont spoil it could provide the strongest platform for a regional team we have in wales.

As for north wales, it appears they are moving in the right direction, 5k to erias park is a fantastic effort, but i dont know enough about the area to say that 5-10k could turn up week in week out to support RGC Rebels.

Some in Llanelli and Newport seem passionately against a Valleys Rugby team. Which is odd. Why would they be bothered either way???

I think, from a national team perspective (which is the only really important thing) another team in the south is pointless folly (we should establish proper North, South, East & West teams if it's going to support the test side), but

if we're determined to stick with the current superclub model then the Valleys Rugby people are entitled to make a bid to have a team.

Because they propose;

- playing games throughout their patch
- not being called 'Pontypridd Valleys'
- not having a silly marketing name unless they have to
- co-operative ownership

they appear to have learned from the painful mistakes of the original clubs.

Thus, even though the odds are stacked against them - they deserve a shot.

We all now it should be West, East, Valleys, North (development) and should have been from the start. Any change (and that includes a Valleys side) however must require a reordering of all the regions. The pie isn't big enough now for four, it certainly isn't big enough for five. As to 6, well you might as well disband and go back to clubs.

Now, if the WRU said "on the basis of the clear support in the North as demonstrated at Eirias and the VR plan, we are merging the current four regions into two, East (based at CCS) and West (PYS). VR and RGC1404 will have the full support of the WRU and will take the places freed up in the Pro 12 and European competition".

What would be the result? Generously - a honeymoon period at the brand new regions before they face a tailing off of fan attendances and the same funding issues as the current regions. In the merged regions, a loss of up to half of the existing aggregate fans. Nil sum gain.

I would whole heartedly support a valley's team, and follow them around the valley's, I cannot see it failing as we in the valley's have a point to prove and will not let this oppurtunity pass us by.

Casrtelli, there is no reason if they decided on an east/west split they could spit the games between the four major stadia PYS/Liberty/CCS or CAP and Rodney Parade

Rodney Parade "major stadia" in the same sentence. I think you missed out "not" and "a" before hand.

dowlais its a near 10k capcacity with very good corporate facilties in the new stand and room for further development....which is more thn the valleys initiative which i have lent my support to have to offer

GavinDragon wrote:dowlais its a near 10k capcacity with very good corporate facilties in the new stand and room for further development....which is more thn the valleys initiative which i have lent my support to have to offer

Woooooaaaw, I was only joshing chief, I have been to Rodney Parade a few times, even before what it was like recently, and to be honest I do quite like it there, but it is hardley a Liberty Stadium or a Cardiff City stadium now is it. Anyway I think this new Valley's region should be based at Penydarren Park in Merthyr, as Merthyr is the capital of the Valley's isnt it.

haha im sure pennydarren would see a fair few games if it takes off, apologies for biting, obv not had enough sleep lol

GavinDragon wrote:haha im sure pennydarren would see a fair few games if it takes off, apologies for biting, obv not had enough sleep lol

no probs.

manofgwent wrote:Morganwwg. The valleys is not a hot bed of rugby???? Phenomenal statement.
The reason the regions are in the south, is because that's where Wales is most populated.
Take a look at Super league. Wigan, ST Helens, Wakefield, Widnes, etc. You could throw a blanket over them. They've branched out with Harlequins and the Crusaders, but the true hot bed is in the north.
Valleys not a hot bed!!! Genius

As I said, the RU hotbed in Wales is and always has been the Swansea and Llanelli areas. Not sure why you are mentioning RL teams then North Wales.

GavinDragon wrote:

Does this mean your in favour of club rugby?

No.

Morgannwg wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Morganwwg. The valleys is not a hot bed of rugby???? Phenomenal statement.
The reason the regions are in the south, is because that's where Wales is most populated.
Take a look at Super league. Wigan, ST Helens, Wakefield, Widnes, etc. You could throw a blanket over them. They've branched out with Harlequins and the Crusaders, but the true hot bed is in the north.
Valleys not a hot bed!!! Genius

As I said, the RU hotbed in Wales is and always has been the Swansea and Llanelli areas. Not sure why you are mentioning RL teams then North Wales.

Seriously mate, if you do not think that the valleys are a rugby hotbed you really need your head checked, if you have ever been to the valleys you would notice that any bit of spare grass has rugby posts on it. From Vale of Glamorgan and upwards to Brecon their must be about 500 different rugby clubs, Swansea is more for Football than rugby, I will give you Llanelli as a bit of a hotbed, but the valleys live and breathe rugby and every school puts it first before any other sport.

Remember the Gren cartoons in the Echo?
The sloping pitches in the valleys were great mun.
Fill yewer boots....
http://www.grencartoons.com/