The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

offload wrote:I've supported Pontypool for 40 years and I'm a Dragons season ticked holder! I want nothing to do with the "Valley's Fantasy Region".

And who the hell would want a turncoat like you to support them anyway. Youve apparently supported Pooler for 40 years yet were quick enough to jump on the Newport bandwagon when the Superclub came in. Next year youl be supporting Cardiff probably

Sounds like you need to brush up on your geography, Steffan. Pontypool is in the old county of Gwent - you know, as in Newport Gwent Dragons. How supporting his own regional side makes him a 'turncoat' baffles me. And you don't seem to grasp that it's not forbidden to support a club as well as a region.

I know my geography well as it goes so dont bother trying to patronise me. He supports a Newport superclub and dont try and make out its any different

Steffan wrote:

offload wrote:I've supported Pontypool for 40 years and I'm a Dragons season ticked holder! I want nothing to do with the "Valley's Fantasy Region".

And who the hell would want a turncoat like you to support them anyway. Youve apparently supported Pooler for 40 years yet were quick enough to jump on the Newport bandwagon when the Superclub came in. Next year youl be supporting Cardiff probably

Umm not sure where he's said he supports Newport? He's obviously a passionate and loyal fan if he's supported Pontypool for 40 years and then has continued to support the players as they progress from Pontypools tier up to the professional tier with the Dragons (who Pontypool are a feeder club to).

Strange that you accuse him of being a turncoat for support his own region yet you fully expect him to turn his back on the Dragons and support an (as yet) imaginary Valleys Region which will probably be based in Ponty which is even further away from Pontypool

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Strange that you accuse him of being a turncoat for support his own region yet you fully expect him to turn his back on the Dragons and support an (as yet) imaginary Valleys Region which will probably be based in Ponty which is even further away from Pontypool

At least the Valleys Region (if it did happen) would represent him. Newport dont do that and never will do. My mates dad is a Pooler fan and he hates the Newport Dragons and why wouldnt he Newport and Pooler have been bitter rivals for years

You mean bitter rivals like Neath and Pontypridd or Ebbw and Pontypool - or any clubs in the old Welsh Prem basically?

Just coz ur dad comes froom Pontypool and hates the Dragons doesn't mean he speaks for everyone in the area - The Dragons have quite a lot of fans from all over Gwent and do a lot of work with the clubs around the area.

It's hardly being a turncoat to support the club you've always supported and then to support the region that you're club feeds into.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:It's hardly being a turncoat to support the club you've always supported and then to support the region that you're club feeds into.

What region???????? Its a rebranded Newport Superclub. Lets call a spade a spade here is it and not delude oursleves

Or 'let's call a region a rebranded superclub even though it's not'.

Iv heard the 'British & Irish Lions' might be changing their name soon. They will be called the 'English Roses'. I assume you still be supporting them. After all they will still represent the rest of Britian and Ireland and have Welsh players in the team...

Anyway im off off shopping with the mrs. Might go for a few pints when im in town and then can delude myself that everything is fine with the current superclub setup. Regards

so steffan for you what constitutes a true region?

GavinDragon wrote:so steffan for you what constitutes a true region?

Probably anything that has Valleys in the name and is based in Ponty.

I hope the town where he's buying his pint represents the street where his house is as well...

Steffan wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Strange that you accuse him of being a turncoat for support his own region yet you fully expect him to turn his back on the Dragons and support an (as yet) imaginary Valleys Region which will probably be based in Ponty which is even further away from Pontypool

At least the Valleys Region (if it did happen) would represent him. Newport dont do that and never will do. My mates dad is a Pooler fan and he hates the Newport Dragons and why wouldnt he Newport and Pooler have been bitter rivals for years

Steffan - My old man worked with a bloke who was a die hard neath fan and the whole family were die hard Neath fans, and when rugby went regional they refused to follow the Ospreys as they were Neath fans, and didn't want anything to do with the Ospreys. So by your logic the Ospreys are not representing the region and are a superclub.

Steffan wrote:And who the hell would want a turncoat like you to support them anyway. Youve apparently supported Pooler for 40 years yet were quick enough to jump on the Newport bandwagon when the Superclub came in. Next year youl be supporting Cardiff probably

And this is the reason why little oiks like Steffan should not have their views listened too. Utter tripe.

Steffan wrote:Iv heard the 'British & Irish Lions' might be changing their name soon. They will be called the 'English Roses'. I assume you still be supporting them. After all they will still represent the rest of Britian and Ireland and have Welsh players in the team...

It's interesting that you've chosen the Lions - one team that represents four others - for your analogy. Some might take that as a unwitting admission that the Dragons do indeed represent Pontypool and the other clubs in Gwent.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I hope the town where he's buying his pint represents the street where his house is as well...

Doubt it, he'll probably be drinking in one of Cardiff's 'Super pubs'

gcBlues wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I hope the town where he's buying his pint represents the street where his house is as well...

Doubt it, he'll probably be drinking in one of Cardiff's 'Super pubs'

Those super-pubs are even worse as they are based in Cardiff but represent Ireland and Australia

Fair enough Kiwi but I didn't see anything really insulting here (the pubs comment was meant as a joke - though not as good as gcblues or SS' ones).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Those super-pubs are even worse as they are based in Cardiff but represent Ireland and Australia

Brilliant!

As an outsider - all I can say is this whole debate illustrates why Welsh club rugby is in such a state, all the petty rivalries, everyone V Cardiff, Newport V Swansea V Cardiff, the valley towns against each other. To be honest it makes the Grand Slam win and world cup progress all the more remarkable.

You have the nearest NH equivalent of New Zealand in Wales, the one country where rugby is a top level sport but also the sport of choice for loads of club side, going through Wales a couple of summers ago every place from the smallest village had three things, a chapel, a pub and a rugby ground - you've got something wonderful in rugby terms there that exists only in pockets (if at all) elsewhere in Europe and for reasons of locality, pettiness, and sheer bloody mindedness you are on the verge of throwing it away in a national case of cutting off you nose to spite your face.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Fair enough Kiwi but I didn't see anything really insulting here (the pubs comment was meant as a joke - though not as good as gcblues or SS' ones).

I know, but it was threatening to descend once the next round of repostes got started so I figured a friendly pre-emptive reminder could save me grief later.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Fair enough Kiwi but I didn't see anything really insulting here (the pubs comment was meant as a joke - though not as good as gcblues or SS' ones).

I know, but it was threatening to descend once the next round of repostes got started so I figured a friendly pre-emptive reminder could save me grief later.

Ahh I see you're going the American route by blasting us all with pre-emptive strikes before we sin!

Consider me humbly 'striked' before you start a War On Banter!

I find those pre emptive strikes are rather effective, used one myslef and it paid dividends.

Carwyn James was a fan of the pre-emptive strike: 'get your retaliation in first.'

Yeah, you'll find there is little collateral damage, maybe one or two innocents cop it but defintely an effective strategy. You tend to cop a bit of criticism, but if you aren't sensitve it matters none.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Fair enough Kiwi but I didn't see anything really insulting here (the pubs comment was meant as a joke - though not as good as gcblues or SS' ones).

I know, but it was threatening to descend once the next round of repostes got started so I figured a friendly pre-emptive reminder could save me grief later.

Ahh I see you're going the American route by blasting us all with pre-emptive strikes before we sin!

Consider me humbly 'striked' before you start a War On Banter!

Banter good
Personal attacks bad (now where did I put that big stick )

More seriously, this has been a pretty interesting thread, and as a non-Welshman (I have attended matches at Millenium, CCS and that big shed down in Llanelli in the last year admittedly) I feel I've learnt a few things, so thanks all.

As a New Zealander who supports a regional team that plays most of its games 4 hours drive from his birthplace it's been eye-opening. For the Crusaders the tone got set in 1998 though with Todd Blackadder's victory speech

We're a regional selection... and it's important to remember that, besides Canterbury, we also represent Nelson Bays, Marlborough, Buller, West Coast, Mid-Canterbury and South Canterbury

- Todd had played club rugby in Nelson as an amateur, and lived in North Canterbury rather than Christchurch (even though both are in Canterbury) which made a big difference.

But the thing is, Welsh players could say the same as Todd Blackadder but some Welsh fans simply wouldn't accept it. They've decided themselves that they're "totally disenfranchised" and will never support their region. Instead they'll try to tear the game apart to get their club at the top table.

not all fans feckless, and i think most fans realise that club rugby in its old form is not the way to go and that there must be a less teams at the top i just think most fans would have appreciated it when the game went regional, it ws truly regional with no ties to the old clubs, but back then the WRU was broke and had no real power, and the clubs had massive sugar daddys, now its reversed the sugar daddys are alot less sweet and the wru has got its house in order. as has been mentioned we are all awaiting the publication of the financial report.....

Yeah I know gavin. The switch to regionalism was botched.

But I think the root of the regions problems is the lack of support from the public. It's not a lack of talent. More support would mean more intimidating home grounds and more funds to keep the best players, hire better coaches and better foreign signings.

The people who are constantly giving out about the regions are actually part of the problem they are complaining about. Their lack of support is harming the chances of the regions to succeed and harming Welsh rugby.

Of course the regions themselves are far from blameless either.

I think the call for a new region is madness. It makes no sense financially and is of no benefit to the national team or to domestic Welsh rugbys chances of success in Europe. It's motivated solely by the fact that they don't want to support a region based in Cardiff that also represents them.

But remember Kiwi's quote above.

We're a regional selection... and it's important to remember that, besides Canterbury, we also represent Nelson Bays, Marlborough, Buller, West Coast, Mid-Canterbury and South Canterbury

Why can't the Welsh public be a little bit more mature. It would be brilliant if 12 Welsh clubs could succeed financially and dominate European rugby, but it's impossible. Regional rugby is the only way forward. And they should get their house in order as quickly as possible.

I think there could be a euro super league type thing a decade down the line for Europes biggest rugby teams. If the TV companies see the Welsh sides as adding nothing but empty stadiums then they'll be left behind to squabble amongst themselves.

You already have the Welsh Premiership to fight the village rivalries. They should just support the regions. You're producing some of the best young talent in Europe and they're leaving in droves because you won't support them and there's more money elsewhere.

I wonder what this report will say. Will there be major changes?

You're talking too much sense there, Feckless. You're lucky Steffan's still out shopping!

I have said this on numerous other topics, if you think there will be a valleys region then you nead your head read. There is no way on god's green earth that the WRU will let the capital city team go bust. They save the Scarlets not so long ago and they will save the Cardiff Blues as well. There are to many people involved with the Blues with to much money and power and these people want their "status" kept within the game. We have all hered what as been said and the fact of the matter is, that the four regions will stay as they are. The only thing we have hered is that Roger Lewis is aware that there is a problem within the regional setup and there are plans afoot to sort it out, so we will see around the valleys posters and bill boards with the Cardiff Blues emblem on it with a big war time headline along the likes of "Your Region Needs YOU!!!!". We will than be expected to club around and go down and support "Cardiff" Blues. The only other plans they have is for a North Welsh region, probably to get started in the premiership, then when the roots have set in and everything is moving they will look to get them into the Rabbo. So the Pontypridd MP and us valley folk can make as much noise as we like, but they will not bend and we will be expected to support the capital's region.

what if they dropped cardiff and played 50% of the games at sardis dowlais?

They will not do that, because the people with money at Cardiff want to keep their status in the rugby circles and they beleive that Cardiff is the most popular rugby club in the world. Also I have also heard that to be able to play in the Cardiff athletics club ground you have to have the name Cardiff in your team, look lets be totaly honest here, the CARDIFF Blues have never wanted anything to do with the valleys and they should just come out and say so, they are arrogant enough to beleive that the CARDIFF brand is the biggest club brand in the world and do not want to dilute it down with having the barbarians from the valleys having anything to do with them.

yes but hypothetically IF the above situation occured would you support it?

Steffan wrote:

offload wrote:I've supported Pontypool for 40 years and I'm a Dragons season ticked holder! I want nothing to do with the "Valley's Fantasy Region".

And who the hell would want a turncoat like you to support them anyway. Youve apparently supported Pooler for 40 years yet were quick enough to jump on the Newport bandwagon when the Superclub came in. Next year youl be supporting Cardiff probably

I don't think there is any need for your aggressive and ill informed rant. Turncoat?? I happened to embrace "regional " rugby when it was introduced, flawed though it is. I don't jump on bandwagons and in case it has escaped you, professional rugby in Wales has been centred around 4 regions for a decade. Certainly more change is necessary if we are to take a longer term view of mainataining a healthy and affordable professional game, but in the meantime this is what we have. Pontypool is indeed a feeder club for the Dragons - I have no probelm supporting both.

People can stick their heads in a valleys sandpit if they choose - it will change nothing. As to one day supporting the Blues - I certainly hope not. But if the Dragons didn't exist, perhaps I would travel there to watch a professional Welsh team play rather than stay at home and sulk. At least I'll never have to contemplate supporting a valley's fantacy XV

Not being harsh on anyone here. But the regional HQs need to be based where the population centres of the regions are. And those are Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport.

I live in Milford Haven about a 120m round trip away from PYS, which is made longer by having to drive up to the Preseli mountains to pick up my dad on the way, but I have never really thought anything of it. Seeing as Milford Haven is the second biggest population centre in the region I should be making huge moans and groans on here about the Scarlets not playing their games at the Observatory Ground? No, I accept that my region needs to be based where it is easiest for the majority to get to and I deal with it.

Wow I get back from shopping (had a coffee instead of a beer) and iv been insulted on more than one occasion after I had left. Some tough people on internet forums fair do...

SS just chucked a grenade onto the thread

steffan i dnt tink anyone was insulting you as such just having a bit of banter about your point of view, i can see why you and many others in the valleys are completely peed off about how things are right now so i put to you the same question i put to dowlais, IF the blues dropped cardiff and played 50%| of their games at sardis would you support them?

GavinDragon wrote:SS just chucked a grenade onto the thread

Not wanting to be disrespectful, but Pembrokeshire is the forgotten county of Wales full stop. People seem to think that the country stops at Carmarthen. I do have empathy for the Valleys (and even more for those of the North), but there is only so much you can take.

ok tbf steffan i just re-read the thread and one or two did insult you

GavinDragon wrote:yes but hypothetically IF the above situation occured would you support it?

I have gone to watch quite a few Cardiff Blues games, more so when they were based at the Athletic club ground, but I cherry pick the games I go down to Leckwith to watch as I just do not like it there. My old man has been a Cardiff Rugby club supporter for about forty years and he will not watch many games at Leckwith either. I would even think twice about the games at Sardis Rd at the moment as I do not believe the ground ar the town have the facilities to stage a Rabbo direct game, I know I will be accused of being biased here but I really do think that If a valleys region were reformed then they should be based at Merthyr Tydfil as the town and Penydarren Park have more potential to be a succsess as Merthyr is probably the biggest town in the valleys and the facilities at Penydarren Park are much better than any other ground in and around the valleys.

Irish Londoner wrote:As an outsider - all I can say is this whole debate illustrates why Welsh club rugby is in such a state, all the petty rivalries, everyone V Cardiff, Newport V Swansea V Cardiff, the valley towns against each other. To be honest it makes the Grand Slam win and world cup progress all the more remarkable.

You have the nearest NH equivalent of New Zealand in Wales, the one country where rugby is a top level sport but also the sport of choice for loads of club side, going through Wales a couple of summers ago every place from the smallest village had three things, a chapel, a pub and a rugby ground - you've got something wonderful in rugby terms there that exists only in pockets (if at all) elsewhere in Europe and for reasons of locality, pettiness, and sheer bloody mindedness you are on the verge of throwing it away in a national case of cutting off you nose to spite your face.

This post is completely spot on, especilly the bit I've highlighted in bold, sums us Welsh up quite well I think (not all of us obviously, but there's a whole lot of Welsh people like it)

what about you then steffan would you support the blues if they dropped cardiff from the name and played 50% of the gmes at sardis or penyydarren?

Another factor worth looking at for buy-in to the regions is on-field success. The Crusaders' win in 1998 brought to an end a decade of absolute domination of NZ rugby by the Auckland NPC team (they held the Ranfurly Shield for over 50 consecutive defences, no other team has managed over 25), and the (Auckland) Blues who comfortably won the first 2 Super 12s and put 50 points on Brive in the "Battle of the Hemispheres". The traditional NZ tall poppy syndrome had kicked in and most of the rest of the country wanted Auckland to lose.

That initial success meant big (25,000-30,000) crowds at Lancaster Park as the Crusaders, backed by a superbly run back-office (rejects from other regions moved to Christchurch and were turned into All Blacks - often they lost their way again once they returned home) won the competition 6 times in 7 years. Money flowed into all of the provinces' coffers, pre-season matches were shared around the provinces, while the occasional competition match was played in Timaru or Nelson.

Crowds have dipped at times since (the NZ public had a wee tanty with rugby after the ABs' failure in 2007, coupled with the recession - the failure of several finance companies in NZ prior to the banking prices meant many middle income earners had to cut back), but most people in the provinces support the Crusaders, with only the odd hold-out (or someone born outside the region) supporting the neighbouring Highlanders and Hurricanes.

rugbydreamer wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:As an outsider - all I can say is this whole debate illustrates why Welsh club rugby is in such a state, all the petty rivalries, everyone V Cardiff, Newport V Swansea V Cardiff, the valley towns against each other. To be honest it makes the Grand Slam win and world cup progress all the more remarkable.

You have the nearest NH equivalent of New Zealand in Wales, the one country where rugby is a top level sport but also the sport of choice for loads of club side, going through Wales a couple of summers ago every place from the smallest village had three things, a chapel, a pub and a rugby ground - you've got something wonderful in rugby terms there that exists only in pockets (if at all) elsewhere in Europe and for reasons of locality, pettiness, and sheer bloody mindedness you are on the verge of throwing it away in a national case of cutting off you nose to spite your face.

This post is completely spot on, especilly the bit I've highlighted in bold, sums us Welsh up quite well I think (not all of us obviously, but there's a whole lot of Welsh people like it)

rugbydreamer, it is quite easy to get on your high horse and tell us all this when you have a "region" to affiliate yourself with. I wonder how you would feel if the WRU had not bailed out the Scarlets when they were starring administration in the face, how would you feel now if they decided to keep the Celtic Warriors going and decided to ditch the Scarlets and told you all to support the Ospreys instead.

I wouldn't have supported the Ospreys (me support a team based in Swansea?! never! yes I can be just as narrow minded as a lot of other people at times ) I'd probably have supported the Blues (especially having lived in the Diff now for 4 years and gone to watch them a fair few times). My point is, regardless of whether the Scarlets had continued or not, I'd have chosen another region and backed that one. why? because when it comes down to it, I love my rugby, and I want to go and watch games live. I'd also have continued to go and watch Llanelli RFC play I'd imagine.

And sure I'd have kicked up a massive fuss if that had happened to the Scarlets, but I it's been what, 7 years now? People need to start looking at the bigger picture and move on now. Otherwise Welsh rugby is going to continue to suffer, and we'll end up with nothing, or something a lot worse then what we've got now.

Kiwi on field success is a big factor. Leinster was once seen as a south Dublin team for posh people (Munstermen probably like to still see it that way). On field success has made it much easier to attract supporters from all over the province, and the support is really widespread throughout Leinster now.

I saw crowds of fans at the train station in my town heading to Dublin for the HC quarter final. This wouldn't have been the case 5 years ago. I'm not sure Leinster would have been so successful so quickly at growing the support base without the feats on the field the team was providing. Everybody likes a winner.

But in the Welsh regions case the lack of support is having a direct impact on what they can achieve on the field, because they're broke and dying, and the rich French clubs are circling like vultures to pick at the corpses. The regions need more support as soon as possible.

I do go and watch live rugby though, it's just that I cherry pick the games I want to watch. You will not catch me making a massive effort to go and watch the Blues V Connacht down at Leckwith on a rain swept Friday night that is for sure, I would rather put my effort into watching my local side on a Saturday or I might pick another region to watch. I will more than likely watch the derby this weekend but you will not see me throw myself heart and soul into the "CARDIFF" Blues, not one jot, because they do "NOTHING" for valleys rugby. For instance, when the youth rugby club I used to help run wanted some representation from our region to give out trophy's and the what not for our end of season presentation night we were told by the Blues hierarchy that they were all to busy, bet when we asked the Scarlets, not even our region, they could not be more helpful, and they sent up Mark Jones, and what a nice bloke he was to. So please do not tell me that I am biting my nose off to spite my face, as "my region" has done sweet f.a to build anything with us up in the valleys.