The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

GavinDragon wrote:what about you then steffan would you support the blues if they dropped cardiff from the name and played 50% of the gmes at sardis or penyydarren?

I wanted to support the Blues when we first got incorporated. I actaully did think that they may call themselves 'Cardiff & Valley Blues' and play games at Sardis and possibly Penyydarren but none of this ever happened and the Valleys got left out in the cold to the current Cardiff superclub. If they were willing to change for the better then so would I

LordDowlais wrote:I do go and watch live rugby though, it's just that I cherry pick the games I want to watch. You will not catch me making a massive effort to go and watch the Blues V Connacht down at Leckwith on a rain swept Friday night that is for sure, I would rather put my effort into watching my local side on a Saturday or I might pick another region to watch. I will more than likely watch the derby this weekend but you will not see me throw myself heart and soul into the "CARDIFF" Blues, not one jot, because they do "NOTHING" for valleys rugby. For instance, when the youth rugby club I used to help run wanted some representation from our region to give out trophy's and the what not for our end of season presentation night we were told by the Blues hierarchy that they were all to busy, bet when we asked the Scarlets, not even our region, they could not be more helpful, and they sent up Mark Jones, and what a nice bloke he was to. So please do not tell me that I am biting my nose off to spite my face, as "my region" has done sweet f.a to build anything with us up in the valleys.

Dowlais that's unbelievable behavior from Blues. Any team in any sport has to go out of its way for community involvement. That's exactly how support and loyalty is built. And they need to try and build it more than anybody. What are they at?

can anyone tell me a legitimate reason why this (i.e blues playing at sardis and elsewhere) cannot happen?

Dowlais - I wasn't tell you personally, and I'm not sure where you've read that. I said some Welsh. It's not my fault that you've taken it to mean that I've meant you

GavinDragon wrote:can anyone tell me a legitimate reason why this (i.e blues playing at sardis and elsewhere) cannot happen?

Gavin, it is because they do not want anything to do with the valleys, I am not being funny here, I am being very serious, I have been there and heard this for myself, they just want to be a capital city club. They see "their region" as Cardiff city and the immediate surrounding areas, and I can tell you now that this is a legitimate answer.

yes i know that sorry i should have stated is there a business case for it not happening, i.e sardis not meeting rabbo criteria, wat is the capacity of sardis and pennydarren

and dowlais then they should be forced to change, the wru have the power there now they should be made to play elsewhere regardless of what cardiffians think.

i think the same should be done at the dragons, and tbh youd find very few dragons fans would be opposed to games being played at eugene cross or pontypool park

Maybe this is something the independent review is going to address. The Blues might be told in no uncertain terms that they have to take seriously their responsibility to the whole of their region.

Well, Penydarren can hold 10,000 people, well, they had just a few more than that in there for their match against Atalanta from Italy in the eightees, but the good thing about it is the fact it is right in the Merthyr Town, and it is half seated and three quaters covered. It also has decent facilities there for getting started and would not cost half as much to upgrade if things got off the ground. I tell you what, I would even get right behind the Cardiff Blues if they played a few games there.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I do go and watch live rugby though, it's just that I cherry pick the games I want to watch. You will not catch me making a massive effort to go and watch the Blues V Connacht down at Leckwith on a rain swept Friday night that is for sure, I would rather put my effort into watching my local side on a Saturday or I might pick another region to watch. I will more than likely watch the derby this weekend but you will not see me throw myself heart and soul into the "CARDIFF" Blues, not one jot, because they do "NOTHING" for valleys rugby. For instance, when the youth rugby club I used to help run wanted some representation from our region to give out trophy's and the what not for our end of season presentation night we were told by the Blues hierarchy that they were all to busy, bet when we asked the Scarlets, not even our region, they could not be more helpful, and they sent up Mark Jones, and what a nice bloke he was to. So please do not tell me that I am biting my nose off to spite my face, as "my region" has done sweet f.a to build anything with us up in the valleys.

Dowlais that's unbelievable behavior from Blues. Any team in any sport has to go out of its way for community involvement. That's exactly how support and loyalty is built. And they need to try and build it more than anybody. What are they at?

Quite frankly, with attitudes like that at the Blues it's no wonder they're struggling. The Crusaders may have started out with a "Canterbury" in front of their name, and they still share facilities (post-earthquake that's not going to change any time soon) with the Canterbury NPC team but they've always made a real effort to stay grounded in the community. I remember reading a while back about a couple of players handing out prizes at my old high school's annual prize giving ceremony - 4 hours drive each way. And every year Leon MacDonald leads the team in a charity cricket match against pro cricketers and celebs (Leon is playing provincial cricket for Marlborough now he's retired from rugby)

well then there is no argument for not trying to stage games there maybe 3-4 a season to see if it could take off?

GavinDragon wrote:well then there is no argument for not trying to stage games there maybe 3-4 a season to see if it could take off?

I would support it.

GavinDragon wrote:and dowlais then they should be forced to change, the wru have the power there now they should be made to play elsewhere regardless of what cardiffians think.

i think the same should be done at the dragons, and tbh youd find very few dragons fans would be opposed to games being played at eugene cross or pontypool park

Trust me, the WRU need to grow a pair, to be honest, this is why I think Peter Thomas wants out, because now that the WRU might be in a position to stand up to all the big money men at Cardiff, although I still think the WRU would soil themselves at the thought, Peter Thomas just does not want the argument. This is why they still want their "status" in the rugby circles, but just do not want to be told what to do, the people who run the Cardiff Blues are pretty powerfull people.

Maybe that's about to change, Dowlais.

In all fairness from the little I know if the blues played in Ponty they would have to rent a third ground.
Ponty fans wouldn't go as it would be seen as Cardiff rubbing it in their face.
So why would the Blues have 1000 at a game when they need the money.

I would guess Ponty fans going to a Blues game even if at Sardis would be akin to crossing the strike lines

Brendan wrote:In all fairness from the little I know if the blues played in Ponty they would have to rent a third ground.
Ponty fans wouldn't go as it would be seen as Cardiff rubbing it in their face.
So why would the Blues have 1000 at a game when they need the money.

I would guess Ponty fans going to a Blues game even if at Sardis would be akin to crossing the strike lines

They did it not so long ago for a game and it was a sell out.

was that the blues or ponty

I know ponty had a big game sell out

The Irish love to support each other regardless who it is as long as it is not another Irish Team.

I wish Wales was more like that.

A lot of Wales is like that, Brendan

And if that's the case with the irish, why is there always so much squabbling amongst provincial fans when it comes to supporting team Ireland?

You don't get that issue over in Wales at all.

If the Ulster game was played at Croke it would fill as munster and leinster fans would go.

When it comes to internal we are as tribal as ye.

When it comes to the national team we all support the team it is who should and shouldn't be playing which comes back to my player is better then yours.

Would cardiff or any other fill Mell for a semi or final.
It seems it only filled for the big 5 which is the problem in wales.
Did like the topic on religion

Brendan wrote:If the Ulster game was played at Croke it would fill as munster and leinster fans would go.

When it comes to internal we are as tribal as ye.

When it comes to the national team we all support the team it is who should and shouldn't be playing which comes back to my player is better then yours.

Would cardiff or any other fill Mell for a semi or final.
It seems it only filled for the big 5 which is the problem in wales.
Did like the topic on religion

Blues got 35-40,000 for Gloucester and Leicester during their impressive run in the Heineken Cup. If they could one draw in rugby supporters from all over their Region whilst playing good rugby again then they may fill the Millennium Stadium.

Do they connect wales tickets to region tickets

If they sold tickets for wales cheaper to Region attendees or gave money from none region attendees to the the region by having a higher price for none region attendees it might help the regions.

It could also have the opposite affect and get rid of Wales fans as a fair weather is better then an empty seat

Brendan wrote:Do they connect wales tickets to region tickets

The option is there, but it's a double-edged sword for the regions as they have to pay for any ticket allocation they take up that go unsold.

They really should link the two a lot better though, at the end of the day it's us lot who decide to get on with life and support our pro tier rather than mope around about imaginary slights a decade dead that subsidise the national team and deliver those grand slams etc.

Brendan wrote:In all fairness from the little I know if the blues played in Ponty they would have to rent a third ground.
Ponty fans wouldn't go as it would be seen as Cardiff rubbing it in their face.
So why would the Blues have 1000 at a game when they need the money.

I would guess Ponty fans going to a Blues game even if at Sardis would be akin to crossing the strike lines

Some Welsh fans believe that the so called regions can move around grounds willy nilly and are also unable to comprehend the concept of cash.

LordDowlais wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Morganwwg. The valleys is not a hot bed of rugby???? Phenomenal statement.
The reason the regions are in the south, is because that's where Wales is most populated.
Take a look at Super league. Wigan, ST Helens, Wakefield, Widnes, etc. You could throw a blanket over them. They've branched out with Harlequins and the Crusaders, but the true hot bed is in the north.
Valleys not a hot bed!!! Genius

As I said, the RU hotbed in Wales is and always has been the Swansea and Llanelli areas. Not sure why you are mentioning RL teams then North Wales.

Seriously mate, if you do not think that the valleys are a rugby hotbed you really need your head checked, if you have ever been to the valleys you would notice that any bit of spare grass has rugby posts on it. From Vale of Glamorgan and upwards to Brecon their must be about 500 different rugby clubs, Swansea is more for Football than rugby, I will give you Llanelli as a bit of a hotbed, but the valleys live and breathe rugby and every school puts it first before any other sport.

Lord Dowlais you are having a laugh. Rugby in the schools is a joke. My boy is in his first year at Pontypridd High School and has played 4 games all season after not even having a rugby team in his primary school. If it was not for the clubs providing mini/junior rugby then the kids would not be playing at all.

Pyleboy65 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

manofgwent wrote:Morganwwg. The valleys is not a hot bed of rugby???? Phenomenal statement.
The reason the regions are in the south, is because that's where Wales is most populated.
Take a look at Super league. Wigan, ST Helens, Wakefield, Widnes, etc. You could throw a blanket over them. They've branched out with Harlequins and the Crusaders, but the true hot bed is in the north.
Valleys not a hot bed!!! Genius

As I said, the RU hotbed in Wales is and always has been the Swansea and Llanelli areas. Not sure why you are mentioning RL teams then North Wales.

Seriously mate, if you do not think that the valleys are a rugby hotbed you really need your head checked, if you have ever been to the valleys you would notice that any bit of spare grass has rugby posts on it. From Vale of Glamorgan and upwards to Brecon their must be about 500 different rugby clubs, Swansea is more for Football than rugby, I will give you Llanelli as a bit of a hotbed, but the valleys live and breathe rugby and every school puts it first before any other sport.

Lord Dowlais you are having a laugh. Rugby in the schools is a joke. My boy is in his first year at Pontypridd High School and has played 4 games all season after not even having a rugby team in his primary school. If it was not for the clubs providing mini/junior rugby then the kids would not be playing at all.

They tend not to play at juniour school level for safety reasons, but as soon as you get to high school or comp as we used to call it, by the time you are fifteen you get to play loads, I know when I was in comp, all our games teacher would let us play is rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer. Just because they are not getting games against other schools you can bet your life every P.E lesson is rugby,rugby,rugby.

The clubs are providing mini rugby from the age of seven which is not taken up by the schools and trust me it is not the same as it used to be.

The teachers are simply not interested in rugby in schools anymore. Well certainly not in Pontypridd High School. The only serious rugby played by the kids theses days are on a Sunday at club level.

This is where the Regions are failing. They should be more involved in the mini/junior rugby in the clubs. Not only are these the players of the future but also the spectators of the future. The Blues do run 3 day coaching courses but charge £80 per child !!!!!!

Steffan - I quite like the idea of that name - "The Cardiff and Valley Blues" (though does sound like a maudalin song) and if there is such a clause that any teams playing at the CAP have to have Cardiff in their name then this name meets that criteria - though of course it would be better if they were just "The Blues"

I know it's awhile ago (I'm 28 now) but we played lots of rugby at Primary School level in Llanelli, and then there was a very healthy junior set up with lots of teams from u7s up.

Think it varies from school to school to be honest. I am 46 and we only played schools rugby but it seems to be the other way around now which is a shame.

To be fair my daughter is 8 and The Blues have just started sending coaches into her school so perhaps they are strting to get the message. By the way she looks forward to every Thursday when they come in and is satring to take an interest in The Blues - shows what a bit of positive marketing from the regions could achieve.

I went to high school 2000-05. Sports such as football, rugby, cricket going through the schools is dead and has been for decades, all due to Thatcherism. It is no wonder we started to produce a lot less athletes than before. In junior school I played about two games of football in my entire 4 years there because we didn't have any teachers or coaches to train/coach us.

Pyleboy65 wrote:The clubs are providing mini rugby from the age of seven which is not taken up by the schools and trust me it is not the same as it used to be.

The teachers are simply not interested in rugby in schools anymore. Well certainly not in Pontypridd High School. The only serious rugby played by the kids theses days are on a Sunday at club level.

This is where the Regions are failing. They should be more involved in the mini/junior rugby in the clubs. Not only are these the players of the future but also the spectators of the future. The Blues do run 3 day coaching courses but charge £80 per child !!!!!!

It's sad to hear that Pyleboy, but I can assure you it is not like that in Merthyr. There is a healthy rivalry between comp schools in Merthyr Tydfil, you have Cyfarthfa High School, Pen-y-dre High School, Bishop Hedley High School, Afon Taff High School, then you have the surrounding areas like Treharris, Rhymney and the rest, but that is what is probably the issue in Ponty, it is not as big a town as Merthyr therefore does not have as many High schools for competition.

Morgannwg wrote:I went to high school 2000-05. Sports such as football, rugby, cricket going through the schools is dead and has been for decades, all due to Thatcherism. It is no wonder we started to produce a lot less athletes than before. In junior school I played about two games of football in my entire 4 years there because we didn't have any teachers or coaches to train/coach us.

Couldn't agree more and that is why since the inception of regional rugby and the setting up of Acadamies, Welsh rugby has improved. If we do embrace the regions and more importantly the acadamies then we will go back to the dark days of the 80's and 90's.

Pyleboy65 wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:I went to high school 2000-05. Sports such as football, rugby, cricket going through the schools is dead and has been for decades, all due to Thatcherism. It is no wonder we started to produce a lot less athletes than before. In junior school I played about two games of football in my entire 4 years there because we didn't have any teachers or coaches to train/coach us.

Couldn't agree more and that is why since the inception of regional rugby and the setting up of Acadamies, Welsh rugby has improved. If we do embrace the regions and more importantly the acadamies then we will go back to the dark days of the 80's and 90's.

Also, parents and kids alike are now realising that there could be a future and a career in rugby now that it has gone professional so now more parents are encouraging there children to participate in the sport. Also rugby is cool again in Wales after the recent succsess.

Valleys Rugby is delighted to announce that Gareth Davies, Finance Director and General Manager of Flexicare Medical Limited has joined the Advisory Board.

Gareth is an experienced financial executive with broad experience in all aspects of financial
management and business leadership at executive board level.

Gareth qualified as a Chartered Accountant with Deloitte Llp in 1998 and during his time there worked with a range of companies from small SME's to multinational listed companies.

Gareth will add his significant financial and managerial experience to the Board, and his presence on the Board is a further indication of the campaign's intent.

Theres a lot of guff being spoken about the Blues intentions here.

Firstly I want to note that Rhymney is part of the Dragons region, and some of the surrounding too.

The Blues are crippled by the CCS rent, why or how could they then go and rent out other grounds to play in?

If the Blues were to up and move up the valleys and play at Sardis (who would elevate their rental proposal) and Pennydarren, it would be all but boycoted by those they were targetting, and they also risk alienating cardiffians!

The way forward for Cardiff and Valley rugby is to conced they cannot be one, and both go their own way! This Valley proposal sounds great, and in the interest of both parties has to be suppported by all.

Then Cardiff would be allowed to it's own devices (don't get me started on that mess)

Ps schools rugby has been struggling anywhere east of Swansea for years, In Cardiff and Newport it has been flooded with University students from England gaining jobs and having a more focus on Football etc...

The numbers of English PE teachers in Cardiff and Newport are something like 50%, and the amount of football to rugby being played in schools is about even.

thebluesmancometh wrote:This Valley proposal sounds great, and in the interest of both parties has to be suppported by all

Totally agree with you there

Just a shame the rest on here are too narrow-minded to see it that way

I think a valleys region would be a success. I dont think that it would impact massively on the current regions at all. I know Pooler fans, who would never follow the Dragons. I know there are some from the valleys that support the Dragons, but the Dragons haven't embraced the Gwent valleys at all. I regularly work in Tredegar, Rhymney, Blackwood and Ebbw Vale and I do speak to a couple of Dragons fans, but mostly people are against the region. It goes back to old rivalries and that the Dragons aren't seen as a region, but as Newport. From the shirts I see whilst driving around the Gwent valleys, the majority support the Ospreys. They may not go to their games, but they're supporting them rather than support the Dragons and I don't really blame them.
Having supported Newport, before the Dragons and having been to Sardis Road on several occasions as well as speaking to Ponty fans. There's no doubt that this area needs to be given top level rugby. It is so passionate about the game. Look at the Ospreys. They were getting 7,000 to watch their star studded teams a few years back. Before the game went regional. Swansea were in a real state. Getting less than 1,000 fans for home games. No wonder Ponty feel cheated. But it's ok. You can drive to the CCS and cheer on your bitter rivals. I wonder why they don't bother?!?!?!

I'm still struggling to see how a valleys Region would be a success whilst not having an impact on the current 4 should they also stay put mog, have you not read anything of note on this thread?

A few people feel 'disenfranchised' by the Dragons and feel they don't represent them. So they go and support another 'region' that doesn't represent them. That's the bit I don't get.

Morgan. Well you simply haven't got a clue then. If the Dragons have a 5,500 crowd against Treviso tomorrow. I would say that 5,300 would be from Newport. So if getting a couple of hundred fans from outside Newport means that the rest of Gwent have embraced the Dragons and this would effect a valleys team?? How many fans travel from the Rhondda to Cardiff? Maybe a few. I'm telling you now, that the majority in the Gwent valleys don't go to Rodney Parade. I'm not even saying this as a valleys fan. Ive lived in Newport all my life. Supported Newport and now the Dragons, but even I can see that the Deagons aren't concerned about attracting valleys supporters.
The only difference for me supporting the Dragons since supporting Newport is that the team I support don't play in black and Amber. We've got a bit of red and White in the kit now!!!!

LOL - yeah good one mog... Here is just one link to shoot down your arguement: http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/newsarticle.aspx?n=20935. A valleys team on top of the current 4 is not viable, and that's a fact. I can't believe people still don't know that.

I've waited 18 months for a good manofgwent/morgannwg debate...

How does that shoot me down?? How do you think you can tell me more about my region than I can. I had that tweeted to me in the week. So what? The Dragons are desperate for support. There are free tickets flying around at every game and a few weeks ago children from Gwent rugby clubs had free entry.

I'm going over tomorrow. It'll be the same old crowd. How many Bedwas, Pooler, Bedwas and Vale fans do you think want to watch the Dragons play Treviso, even for free???? Not many at all. If I see any different I'll be amazed.

I guarantee the attendance will be the usual 5000-5,500. It won't all of a sudden be 8,000. There is barely a soul that attends Rodney Parade that previously supported another Gwent club. I know. I go. Yes. To every game!!!!!
I ain't watching it on the box without a clue!!!

It shoots you down because you said "but even I can see that the Deagons aren't concerned about attracting valleys supporters." (I assume you meant Dragons) .

Was there much difference in attendances figures before the Regions by the way? As I was under the impression they were growing. A Valleys region wouldn't even match what we get now and would soon die down. Some valleys fans will still be claim 'disenfranchisement' if there is a valleys region.

You can't win an argument on spelling you sap!!!
I think you're wrong. You put a region in the valleys and base it at Sardis road, it would be the best supported. Did you not watch much club rugby. The Rhondda is a hot bed.
The thing is, I'm not calling for a fifth region, but if we had one, I'd have it in the valleys every time before north Wales!

Your wasting you time with Morgannwg. He just dismisses any talk of a Valleys region without even offering decent debate. The spelling incident showed it

Who is trying to win an arguement on spelling? I just shot your arguement down with a fact on the link I provided you with. We know Ponty want a region at Sardis rd, as do you. They had one and it failed. And it wasn't the best supported. Again, these are facts.

Steffan, if you can provide anything to show how this valleys region is viable and in which league it would compete after multiple posters have given reasons for it not being possible I'd happily pay attention. But so far you haven't replied to any of them. This is just an excuse for you and a few others to cry disenfranchised. Even outsiders have stepped in and commented how you all need to see the bigger picture. Pathetic.

I wait 18 months and it descends into a spelling debate...

...like that time I watched 'Heat'...

Steff. You're right. Havent heard a good argument. Just running down other regions and he's got a point. The regions are in a state, but I'm not sure I've heard a good argument for north Wales. Comparing them to the Rebels is pretty laughable.
Trying to score points by picking up spelling and saying I haven't got a clue. Well I've followed Newport and the Dragons for 26 Years so I feel I have more to offer than someone who watches rugby on the box. Laughable.

manofgwent wrote:Morgan. Well you simply haven't got a clue then. If the Dragons have a 5,500 crowd against Treviso tomorrow. I would say that 5,300 would be from Newport. So if getting a couple of hundred fans from outside Newport means that the rest of Gwent have embraced the Dragons and this would effect a valleys team?? How many fans travel from the Rhondda to Cardiff? Maybe a few. I'm telling you now, that the majority in the Gwent valleys don't go to Rodney Parade. I'm not even saying this as a valleys fan. Ive lived in Newport all my life. Supported Newport and now the Dragons, but even I can see that the Deagons aren't concerned about attracting valleys supporters.
The only difference for me supporting the Dragons since supporting Newport is that the team I support don't play in black and Amber. We've got a bit of red and White in the kit now!!!!

Reckon you're right MOG and I suppose it's similar to Cardiff Blues. Most of the support comes from Cardiff and the Vale with a few hundred from the valleys who have no connection with Pontypridd. That's how it always has been and even before pretend regionalism came along.