The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Dive of a little place near Rodney, just across from the Kwik fit?

Lord

You said Cardiff has nothing that Merthyr hasn't got better of!

I didn't use Google maps, I used AA routeplanner, which by car states the CCS is 1 minute closer to Sardis than Pennydarren is!
The train is also 12 minutes quicker Ponty to Central, than the bus Ponty to Merthyr!!

In every way your argument is flawed!

This business plan has just as much to do with the rest of Wales as you guys! Your basically asking for a peice of the pie, on the basis there is a small number who think it'll work out!

As I said, I'm all for it, but I can't help thinking it's a misguided venture!

If you mean across the road from Kwikfit then the only thing there is that indie nightclub I mentioned, but that's closed down for ages so you can't have gone there the other day! And, it would have been nightclub hours, I.e. after 11pm? If you mean just up from Kwikfit then it must be the Ivy Bush which I've drunk in many times pre and post rugby and only had pints not cans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17780742

Roger Lewis' comments give me a feeling that the WRU are going to end up saying nice idea, but sorry not right now.

think it's pretty obvious that Lewis doubts that a pro side can be ran with a budget of 1.5 mil, especially if the four other regions are having trouble operating over 3.5 at the moment. *

It's a case of prove your math, or no slice of the pie.

Let's be honest, the other unions aren't going to simply allow another welsh team into the P12 at the expence of a future (possible) scottish/italian team, which in my opinion would be of greater value to the league than a 5th welsh team.

* not sure of the Dragons budget.

Does seem like a bit of a no go with the WRU doubting the viability of a region run on £1.5m and no agreement in place with any of the competitions that the regions meant to compete in - LV, Pro12(or Pro13 as it would have to be), Amlin (ECR).

I wonder how many fans will pay into this region is it's competing against Pontypridd in the Welsh Prem but still playing games at the Gnoll, Penderryn Park and (apparently) Ebbw as well as North Wales.

I don't think that Owen Smith is able to appreciate some of the fundamentals of the way rugby is working in Wales atm. He's concerned purely with the Valleys. It's being debated whether Welsh rugby would be able to sustain a fifth region, the general consensus of which is that with the regular regions where they are the answer would be no. A sixth region is therefore out of the question.

I think that central contracts are necessary at this stage and not only are stand-alone clubs like the Blues blocking off that option for now but a new 'Valleys' region would be adding to this debacle.

It seems to me that when this Valleys region was first suggested, the WRU told them to go away and come back with a detailed proposal, not really meaning it and expecting that to be the end of it. Now that they've been presented with the proposal, they don't really know what to say.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It seems to me that when this Valleys region was first suggested, the WRU told them to go away and come back with a detailed proposal, not really meaning it and expecting that to be the end of it. Now that they've been presented with the proposal, they don't really know what to say.

So you don't think it's coz the WRU believe the figures to be a bit squiffy and that they don't believe the region to be viable?

Well it's that too.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It seems to me that when this Valleys region was first suggested, the WRU told them to go away and come back with a detailed proposal, not really meaning it and expecting that to be the end of it. Now that they've been presented with the proposal, they don't really know what to say.

How about this? Another region (a sixth region as we've already got a fifth under development) would be adding to the problem in almost every way as described and detailed throughout this thread. Six regions are unsustainable, we're not even sure if five are sustainable. Four is currently proving hard to sustain measured against other club structures.

Central contracting is necessary but impossible as long as some regions 'stand-alone'. How would VR and their hostility towards the necessary co-operation do anything other than increase these issues?

That said, I'm not entirely sure the boundaries of the regions were well set out in the first place. You can sympathise with the likes of Owen Smith, even if he has absolutely no consideration for Wales as a whole and is only able to think within the Valleys box. Truth be told, the regions have been shoddily managed administratively all the way through. Things ought to be revamped almost entirely, the likelihood of which is less than 1% looking at the egos running everything and the financial hole they have dug us into.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It seems to me that when this Valleys region was first suggested, the WRU told them to go away and come back with a detailed proposal, not really meaning it and expecting that to be the end of it. Now that they've been presented with the proposal, they don't really know what to say.

How about this? Another region (a sixth region as we've already got a fifth under development) would be adding to the problem in almost every way as described and detailed throughout this thread. Six regions are unsustainable, we're not even sure if five are sustainable. Four is currently proving hard to sustain measured against other club structures.

Central contracting is necessary but impossible as long as some regions 'stand-alone'. How would VR and their hostility towards the necessary co-operation do anything other than increase these issues?

That said, I'm not entirely sure the boundaries of the regions were well set out in the first place. You can sympathise with the likes of Owen Smith, even if he has absolutely no consideration for Wales as a whole and is only able to think within the Valleys box. Truth be told, the regions have been shoddily managed administratively all the way through. Things ought to be revamped almost entirely, the likelihood of which is less than 1% looking at the egos running everything and the financial hole they have dug us into.

Also you've got to feel that the likelihood for another massive restructure of the regions gets less likely every year as more money is spent marketing the existing regions, branding gets stronger and stronger, and more money is spent on the infrastructure of these regions.

It is a big shame that the regions weren't set up properly in the 1st place though.

I doubt there'll be a massive restructuring of the regions any time soon, but we'll have to wait and see what this independent review concludes.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I doubt there'll be a massive restructuring of the regions any time soon, but we'll have to wait and see what this independent review concludes.

Neither do I - but I meant people who want to see the regions revamps and called East, West, North, South (I still think they'd be based in PyS, Liberty, CAP or Dave though) - I can't really see it happening as it would entail a huge marketing campaign for a start to convince the current fans to support the newly names teams and try not to disenfranchise them while at the same time trying to convince the current disenfranchised fans that these new regions are theirs and are the best their going to get and to support them.

Shame the WRU mucked up majorly at the start, not only with the senseless regional organisation but conceding so much ground to what are essentially greedy clubs in all but name. It's gone far beyond the point where there's any remotely simple solution. The best thing would have been for the WRU to admit their mistake once it started becoming apparent and restructure the regions while they were still young. They utterly failed in the compassion department when they didn't record local sentiment towards the regions in the first place. The egos wouldn't allow for any of it.

Knowsit17 wrote:Shame the WRU mucked up majorly at the start, not only with the senseless regional organisation but conceding so much ground to what are essentially greedy clubs in all but name. It's gone far beyond the point where there's any remotely simple solution. The best thing would have been for the WRU to admit their mistake once it started becoming apparent and restructure the regions while they were still young. They utterly failed in the compassion department when they didn't record local sentiment towards the regions in the first place. The egos wouldn't allow for any of it.

To be fair the WRU, because they were skint, didn't have much bargaining power to negotiate with the clubs - the clubs held all the power - the player contracts, the grounds and the moneymen.

There seems little appetite among the fans of the current regional clubs to change anything, which is understandable, as they are loyal to their teams.

Everyone else has gone off and is now following the football.

Roger Lewis has stated the desire for 'radical' change, but as pointed out on here, he has very few options.

Most likely scenario is just a massive cost cutting exercise (superclubs can't just haemorrhage money indefinitely) - hardly radical but essential.

The best players will go to France and England but the upside is that our youngsters will get more game time. We'll have the same warmed-over versions of the old Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport that we have now (maybe the premiership teams will be merged into their superclub equivalents to simplify things) attracting sparse crowds - but we'll save money and hopefully still deliver players to the test team.

It's a shame in some ways, as it could have been so much better, but after nine years of the current set up, damage limitation may be the best (only) strategy available for the time being.

and yet again you are applying all the negatives to the Scarlets, when it isn't accurate. nice one.

Why aren't you valleys types all down in the liberty for the battle of the Valleys teams?

Glas a du wrote:Why aren't you valleys types all down in the liberty for the battle of the Valleys teams?

They'll be down CCS on Sunday afternoon. It'll be a thriller.

Casartelli wrote:There seems little appetite among the fans of the current regional clubs to change anything........

Boycotting Cardiff City stadium hopefully will lead to changes. Hopefully.

dreamer - stop being so paranoid! I was applying the negatives to all the 'regions', not just the Scarlets.

glas - Valley Type! How dare you sir! I'm Vale dear boy, I'm neutral!

yes but the negatives you are citing don't apply to the Scarlets, they are completely innacurate!

Casartelli wrote:dreamer - stop being so paranoid! I was applying the negatives to all the 'regions', not just the Scarlets.

glas - Valley Type! How dare you sir! I'm Vale dear boy, I'm neutral!

All of the 4 have problems to deal with, but to varying degrees, so generalising doesn't really work.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17780742

Roger Lewis' comments give me a feeling that the WRU are going to end up saying nice idea, but sorry not right now.

Charging clubs £10,000 to stage a game is crazy talk. Most, if not all the clubs haven't got tuppence to rub together. As for asking 10,000 people to donate £100 each, before they even purchase a season ticket, well that is total madness.
Where is the logic in any of this?

Casartelli wrote:There seems little appetite among the fans of the current regional clubs to change anything, which is understandable, as they are loyal to their teams.

Everyone else has gone off and is now following the football.

Roger Lewis has stated the desire for 'radical' change, but as pointed out on here, he has very few options.

Most likely scenario is just a massive cost cutting exercise (superclubs can't just haemorrhage money indefinitely) - hardly radical but essential.

The best players will go to France and England but the upside is that our youngsters will get more game time. We'll have the same warmed-over versions of the old Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport that we have now (maybe the premiership teams will be merged into their superclub equivalents to simplify things) attracting sparse crowds - but we'll save money and hopefully still deliver players to the test team.

It's a shame in some ways, as it could have been so much better, but after nine years of the current set up, damage limitation may be the best (only) strategy available for the time being.

You mean like Jon Davis, George North, Sam Warburton, Jamie Roberts and A Jones?
If by superclubs you mean the Scarlets region? then as you know being an expert on Scarlets finances they'll breakeven in 2 years so it's a strange comment to say they'll haemorrage money indefinately.

rugbydreamer wrote:yes but the negatives you are citing don't apply to the Scarlets, they are completely innacurate!

They don't apply to the Dragons or the <spit> Ospreys either as far as I can tell.

This is the problem with the likes of Casartelli. You can prove them wrong til you're blue in the face by showing the initiatives the regions have put in place a to satisfy the demands of the disenfranchised fan. It's an absolute nonsense, because they just trot out the Owen Smith party line that 'they're not regions' despite evidence to the contrary.

To be honest the real waste of money in Welsh rugby is trying to reach out to the so-called 'disenfranchised'. They will never except a region because they are too invested in the old clubs. If the regions put in half the effort to attract in the casual fan they'd be fine for attendances (a la the O's last night).

Casartelli, you can't create a region in a divided, parochial place like Wales - but you can evolve one. At the risk of pinching your patented broken record routine, on the old 606 it was put to you to tell everybody why the Dragons are not a region. Do you fancy another crack at answering that one?

I think we have three Regions. All, well two of them are always going to have people like Steffan and Casartelli feeling suicidal over being 'disenfranchised'; which is still a term I'm not too familiar with.

Stone Motif wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:yes but the negatives you are citing don't apply to the Scarlets, they are completely innacurate!

They don't apply to the Dragons or the <spit> Ospreys either as far as I can tell.

This is the problem with the likes of Casartelli. You can prove them wrong til you're blue in the face by showing the initiatives the regions have put in place a to satisfy the demands of the disenfranchised fan. It's an absolute nonsense, because they just trot out the Owen Smith party line that 'they're not regions' despite evidence to the contrary.

To be honest the real waste of money in Welsh rugby is trying to reach out to the so-called 'disenfranchised'. They will never except a region because they are too invested in the old clubs. If the regions put in half the effort to attract in the casual fan they'd be fine for attendances (a la the O's last night).

Casartelli, you can't create a region in a divided, parochial place like Wales - but you can evolve one. At the risk of pinching your patented broken record routine, on the old 606 it was put to you to tell everybody why the Dragons are not a region. Do you fancy another crack at answering that one?

Oh, go on then...

...I believe that the Newport Gwent Dragons are not a 'region' because;

i. they call themselves NEWPORT Gwent Dragons.
ii. since 2005 they have been dire in the celtic league and completely irrelevant in the HC. Treorchy Rhondda Zebras would have reached a higher standard on the pitch. With their 1992 squad.
iii. In a CITY of 140,000 people, they can't attract an average gate of more than 6,000. Newport RFC was the 4th best supported club in the UK before 'regionalism' - just behind the big English clubs, at over 8,000 a game. How can you LOSE support during a period of repeated Grand Slam success in Wales??? How is that even possible?!

After a decade of 'regional rugby' a team with an average attendance of 5k isn't a region. Or, indeed, a superclub.

It's barely even a club.

Well they do call themselves Newport GWENT Dragons.

Casartelli wrote:Oh, go on then...

...I believe that the Newport Gwent Dragons are not a 'region' because;

i. they call themselves NEWPORT Gwent Dragons.
ii. since 2005 they have been dire in the celtic league and completely irrelevant in the HC. Treorchy Rhondda Zebras would have reached a higher standard on the pitch. With their 1992 squad.
iii. In a CITY of 140,000 people, they can't attract an average gate of more than 6,000. Newport RFC was the 4th best supported club in the UK before 'regionalism' - just behind the big English clubs, at over 8,000 a game. How can you LOSE support during a period of repeated Grand Slam success in Wales??? How is that even possible?!

After a decade of 'regional rugby' a team with an average attendance of 5k isn't a region. Or, indeed, a superclub.

It's barely even a club.

i. So what? Which part of Wales are they meant to represent that is not in the name? What do the fans chant? What is the team's nickname, written in big letters on the back of the jersey? What do you think that big old 'G' in the logo stands for? I won't go into the fact that the reason we can't change the name to include the so-called 'disenfranchised' is because the so-called 'disenfranchised' chickened out and gave their half of the region back to Uncle WRU...
ii. WTF have performances got to do with it? Are Connacht and Ulster less of a region than Leinster and Munster? Cardiff Blues have gotten further in the HC than the Ospreys, does that mean they're more of a region? Utter nonsense.
iii. You're contradicting yourself now - many Newport RFC supporters will not attend Dragons matches because they are not 'Newport' enough. Saracens get a similar crowd average when they play at Vicarage Road, and they are based in a city of over 9 million people. Again, nothing to do with regionalism.

So, these three silly attempts at WUMs aside, why are the Dragons not a region?

Stone - see above.

I wish Newport all the best, honestly, but it is likely to fold or be absorbed into something else (hopefully an East Wales Team) sooner rather than later.

It is as irrelevant to me as it is to anyone else outside the Newport area, thus I will bow out of this debate and be the first to admit I was wrong if they ever attract a crowd of more than 7,500 and/or develop into something other than cannon fodder for big teams.

Best wishes.

Bow out because you've been badly exposed more like.

Enjoy that brick wall son but I fear it's doing awful things to your grey matter.

Regards,

Stone
Cross Keys
Gwent

Stone Motif wrote:Bow out because you've been badly exposed more like.

Enjoy that brick wall son but I fear it's doing awful things to your grey matter.

Regards,

Stone
Cross Keys
Gwent

Not as badly exposed as Newport's defence was against Treviso!

(How can a 'region' of Wales lose at home against Treviso, I mean come on...!)

At least there weren't many there to see it...

Pathetic. Stone 2, Casartelli 0.

Loving the irony though, you're more boringly and wrongly insistent (demonstrably without basis I might add) that the Dragons are 'Newport' than the most hardcore of Black and Ambers....

Stone Motif wrote:Pathetic. Stone 2, Casartelli 0.

Loving the irony though, you're more boringly and wrongly insistent (demonstrably without basis I might add) that the Dragons are 'Newport' than the most hardcore of Black and Ambers....

That's the biggest 'victory' a Dragons fan has enjoyed in the last 7 seasons!

I think it's pretty evident that Cas just hates the Dragons so decides to join the valley commando's in running them down along with the other Regions.

At least he changed his tack though. He can't argue the Dragons are not a region now, so he tries to bring up what was a freak result to have a pop at us. Got to love him. Even God loves a trier.

Cas

Your a poor poor wum mate, none of your arguments hold up, and you'r just spouting garbage when youve been humiliated, I'm amazed you havn't come up with...

'so's your mother'.

You'll find the Dragons are only the weakest region performance wise because theyre the only region playing within their means. They havn't overstretched, borrowed millions for a new stadium, signed high wage NWQ players, or even top welsh players. They have lived off low wage journeymen and focus'd on development within, anyone who provides the welsh team with players of the quality of Lloyd, Charteris, Falatau, Lydiate are a decent enough region in my book!

careful bluesman those sort of warm words will only fuel rumours of our impending almalgamation into te Blue Dragons

Will never happen mate.

Merging the 2 would alienate what little regional fans are left.

Use the CCS, you lose 90% of Blues fans and 100% of Dragons fans.

Use Rodney and you'll lose 100% of Blues fans.

Use a generic stadium inbetween ? You lose 100% OF FANS!

No, no, they will remain the Cardiff Blues, with the 'Valleys Dragons' development region playing at Sardis, Dave, and Eugene Cross.

Really???

So because the Warriors couldn't stay afloat they get to incorporate the Dragons???

What happens when the newport fans decide they need to be represented properly????!!!

tbf whether the 4th region is the dragons or the valleys they are going to struggle, the dragons have had a few of the best that ponty (pat palmer, tom riley, darren walters, wyatt) have had to offer over the lst couple of years and won nothing of note, what is to suggest that the same players would be successful under a valleys brand

In reality the Dragons live off journeymen and the youth system. How would basically adding the valleys region help them in any way shape or form???

Theyre youth set up are far more advanced to anything set in the valleys, adding an extra stadium rental when playing at Sardis etc..

It'll just be a poor effort on noones part to incorporate the valleys into a system..

'you don't like the blues? join the dragons' kinda thing!

No. Pies wants one of the others to be a development region so the Blues can get more cash out the WRU. The detail doesn't concern him.

[quote="thebluesmancometh"]Cas

Your a poor poor wum mate, none of your arguments hold up, and you'r just spouting garbage when youve been humiliated... [quote]

Not sure that disagreeing with four Dragons supporters (which is, in fairness, a decent proportion of their average gate) on an internet site qualifies as being 'humiliated'. I've had a lot worse in real life, I can tell you...

I do spout rubbish (not garbage, I'm not American) though. If only to fit in around here!

Casartelli wrote:
Not sure that disagreeing with four Dragons supporters (which is, in fairness, a decent proportion of their average gate) on an internet site qualifies as being 'humiliated'. I've had a lot worse in real life, I can tell you...

Nice to see you've learnt to say our region's name properly though. You'll be singing 'Stand Up for the Men of Gwent' with the best of them by the end of the season. Welcome to 2012!

thebluesmancometh wrote:You'll find the Dragons are only the weakest region performance wise because theyre the only region playing within their means.

Exactly right. If, after the forthcoming independent review, the Dragons get punished for living within their means, I'll be beyond furious.

The Dragons need to look at themselves to analyse what they have achieved and where they are going. Just some of the points brought up by Carartelli are valid, crowds going down from a low base, no longer in the HC, even in the Amlin they can't compete, their international players are hardly locals, best players are leaving as soon as their contracts are up, the Blues main sponsor is a Newport based company, the pitch is not flat as seen when it rains, no under soil heating resulting in games being postponed or played elsewhere but other than that the Dragons are a great success!

I can't see how this region can succeed with the present management and structure, these franchises should be put out to tender by the WRU to see what proposals come it for the good of regional rugby and Welsh rugby.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I doubt there'll be a massive restructuring of the regions any time soon, but we'll have to wait and see what this independent review concludes.

Most likely the Blues and Ospreys will be given a heftier cut of the money, and te SCarlets/Dragons will be given a bit less. I say this as the Blues and Ospreys seem to have been hit worst by the player drain into France/Eng/Scotland and the Salary cap, whereas the Scarlets and Dragons have been doing the better job of surviving with less spare cash.

ALso I went up to Cwnbran yesterday to look at some cars, and I noticed that to be honest I could travel the length of the country in under 2 hours, so do we really need to restructure, wouldn't i be better just to tidy up the regions we have?

But why should the regions who are worst at balancing the books and living within their means be rewarded for their profligacy?