The Valleys business plan.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.valleysrugby.com/our-players-coaches

Our Region

The boundaries of the Valleys Rugby region will be decided by the fans and the clubs of the Valleys Rugby region.

Geography

Valleys Rugby’s primary objective will be to provide a home for those fans and clubs in Wales that consider themselves to be part of the Valleys community and who want to be part of a professional team for their region.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

Clubs will be invited to affiliate to Valleys Rugby and to host home matches as per the Funding section.

North Wales

Valleys Rugby will also look to provide a resource for the development of the game in North and Mid Wales.

Valleys Rugby would work with the WRU to provide a sustainable development plan. Initially it is proposed that Valleys Rugby provides a 3 year commitment along the following basis:-

Base a permanent player academy in North Wales and a player academy in South Wales. The two academies would meet at a middle ground venue on a monthly basis;
Work closely with North and Mid Wales clubs to identify and develop talented players;
Play 2 Rabo Direct league fixtures in North Wales annually. For consistency purposes, Valleys Rugby would propose that the Edinburgh and Ulster games are played in North Wales annually;
Undertake preparation for the establishment of a similar Community owned business model for a professional franchise for North and Mid Wales.
The ultimate objective of Valleys Rugby would be to assist the WRU with the creation of a viable stand alone model for North and Mid Wales. The North and Mid Wales development would ultimately spin out and away from Valleys Rugby. The introduction of a 3 year timeframe in this proposal is intended to focus efforts on establishing this model within this timeframe.

Our Players & Coaches

Valleys Rugby proposes to operate with a low salary budget for playing staff. On the basis that the Region will carry a playing squad of 32 the total salary cap for this squad would be capped at £1,200,000.

The Region would rely on developing young players and so the above cap is based upon the squad have 12 of its players on salaries of c. £18,000 (£216,000) as young professionals.

The remainder of the playing budget (£984,000) would be available between the remaining 20 players to cover salary costs and incidental costs including national insurance.

The following key points would underpin this salary limit:-

All players to be Welsh qualified or qualifying;

Valleys Rugby players would be under contract with a “player release” available should the player aspire to join another Region. The player release would operate on the basis that Valleys Rugby would allow the release, provided the acquiring Region in return provides to Valleys Rugby an academy or younger professional deemed talented and unable to secure adequate development time at the acquiring Region. If a suitable player were not available from the acquiring Region, Valleys Rugby would look for a fixed level of financial contribution allowing further investment into the Valleys Rugby Community;

Valleys Rugby would operate with an “Area Quota” and so have a squad with at least 20% of its players being developed or from North Wales whilst within its time commitment to North Wales and a further 30% being developed or from the Valleys. See our outline regarding a commitment to North Wales elsewhere in the proposal;

Valleys Rugby would be keen to discuss and review “player policies” annually with the WRU and actively seek to engage the input of the WRU in placing younger or developing players with Valleys Rugby – as guided by the WRU on this important strategic issue;
Valleys Rugby would be keen to work with the Wales 7’s structure, to “home” international 7’s players and develop these within the 15 a side structure;

Valleys Rugby would look to develop a schools and young player academy with the WRU and actively seek to progress WRU policies of youth development within its region. To this end, Valleys rugby would be keen to adopt a “commitment to playing” development “stars” as identified by the WRU and with the other Regions if this became appropriate.
Valleys Rugby would not regard itself as a development region. However, it would absolutely embrace the concept of finding, developing and playing the rugby stars of the future.

The Academy

Valleys Rugby will be closely aligned with the playing academies of all existing Regions in any event and its business model is predicated on the ability to give young professional players game time and development time in the professional environment.

Valleys Rugby would propose to operate 2 playing academies, one based in South Wales and one in North Wales. The North Wales academy would ultimately spin-out into the full North Wales Region when this entity is established.

The 2 playing academies would meet at least monthly in a central geographic location to develop skills and coaching together.

Valleys Rugby would look to work closely with the WRU and allow the WRU to run the academy along the lines it thought most productive. Valleys Rugby would also seek to use the National Academy coaches and managers as often as possible.

Coaches

Valleys Rugby would conform to the coaching and support structure as laid out in the Regional Participation Agreement.

Valleys Rugby would appoint its coaches in conjunction with the WRU and in the interim will be assisted by Lynn Howells, currently the coach of the Romanian National team, formerly coach of Wales, Edinburgh in the Rabo Direct, Doncaster in the English Championship, Celtic Warriors and Pontypridd RFC operating in the role of interim Director of Rugby.

As Valleys Rugby develops, its coaching staff can be identified in more detail. Valleys Rugby would be very keen to work with the National Coaches, and provide these with the opportunity to work with and in the Region as often as desirable and agreed with the WRU.

Our Timescale

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the 2013/4 season.

In the 2012/3 season, if financial backing is secured sufficiently, Valleys Rugby would stage some games to attract interest and demonstrate its operation to potential sponsors.

Competitons

Valleys Rugby would look to compete in the Rabo Direct league and in Europe.

In the first 3 years of its existence Valleys Rugby would agree to take on a role within the European Shield tournament rather than the Heineken Cup. This would allow each of the existing Regions to concentrate on the Heineken Cup for a period without having to worry about qualification.

Welsh Rugby would have a committed participant in the Shield tournament and so meet its obligations to this.

It is believed that Valleys Rugby and each of the existing Regions would benefit by this decision.

Name

Valleys Rugby has not proposed a name or nickname.

If a playing name were required then Valleys Rugby CBS would pick this using the majority vote of its members in due course.

Our Stadia

One major advantage of a new Region within Wales would simply be an increase in the number of derby games to the benefit of all of the Regions.

To develop this concept, and to engage in the entire Region, Valleys Rugby proposes hosting its Rabo Direct games in the most geographically advantageous area.

In order to capitalise on strong local support from fans and Rhondda Cynon Taf Local Authority, and predicated upon evidence of core established attendance figures, we have recommended that Sardis Road be the "home" of Valleys Rugby.

However, Valleys Rugby will also host up to 50% of its home matches at clubs throughout its region, in stadia capable of hosting professional Rugby fixtures - either now or in the future.

An illustrative schedule of fixtures to be undertaken by Valleys Rugby might look as follows:-

Fixture Venue
Valleys v. Blues Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Ospreys Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Dragons Eugene Cross Park (Ebbw Vale) / Pontypool Park (Pontypool)
Valleys v. Scarlets Virginia Park (Caerphilly) / Brewery Field (Bridgend)
Valleys v. Leinster Sardis Road (Pontypridd) / The Gnoll (Neath)
Valleys v. Edinburgh Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Ulster Parc Eirias (Colwyn Bay)
Valleys v. Munster Penydarren Park (Merthyr)
Valleys v. Treviso Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Aironi Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Connacht Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
Valleys v. Glasgow Sardis Road (Pontypridd)
European & LV Games Venues as appropriate
Valleys Rugby would hope to commit to a particular venue on a recurring basis (such as Eugene Cross Park for the Dragons) on the basis that this venue would generate home support for the Valleys and also generate a genuine derby atmosphere.

Fixing the fixture to a specific venue would add certainty to the “location” for supporters and hopefully avoid the crowd dilution effect suffered by Regions when moving to different venues previously.

Each of the grounds hosting Valleys Rugby would have to show adequate support from the ground owner and a commitment to ensure the playing surface and facilities are of adequate standard for Regional rugby.

Ultimately, the venues would be decided upon by the make-up of the affiliated clubs and their financial commitment to the Region.

Sardis Road Stadium

The initial principal stadium of Valleys Rugby would be Sardis Road. In this respect:-

RCT Local Authority has in principle agreed to spend £100,000 on the facility over a 3 year period, improving its drainage and playing surface;
RCT Local Authority has also indicated that it will be prepared to vest control of the asset of Sardis Road into the Community Benefit Society, provided it is satisfied with the "asset lock" provisions adopted by Valleys Rugby CBS.
A scheme for the redevelopment of Sardis Road has been investigated by award winning architects Austin-Smith Lord LLP and images of how a redevelopment could look can be seen here.

However, in its early stages, Valleys Rugby would spend predominantly on pitch improvement and general seating. Hospitality could be provided using marquee facilities and also by linking up with local hotels within the Region. Capital expenditure on hospitality would be required in the future but would not be targeted as an immediate priority.

Training Facilities

The training facilities of the University of Glamorgan would be utilised by Valleys Rugby. Valleys Rugby intends to develop close links with the University through player scholarships and similar schemes.

Travel Plan

Valleys Rugby recognises that an intelligent and well resourced travel plan will be required to maximise attendances at peripatetic Valleys Rugby home matches. Edwards Coaches has already indicated its support for Valleys Rugby and has undertaken to work with the new Region to develop and deliver a comprehensive and cost effective travel offering for Valleys Rugby supporters as part of our unique offering.

Pilot Business Plan

Despite the exceptional and welcome success of the Welsh national team, professional rugby in Wales is still subject to enormous challenges.

These challenges impact upon the financial well being of the game, its long term sustainability and its connection with the supporter base within Wales.

It is realistic to say that the existing Regional structure has had limited success to date and there continues to be a need to develop and improve the offering to rugby supporters throughout Wales, in order to further engage supporters of our national sport.

This document and its schedules provide a proposal for a new Region within the WRU structure.

The proposal is also intended to engage with the supporters of rugby in the Valleys who currently appear to be disenfranchised with the existing concept and also to reach out and attempt to assist the WRU with the development of professional rugby in North Wales.

This paper is presented as an outline document but should be considered as a proposal from which to launch a new Region that is both financially viable and closely aligned with, and owned by, its supporter base.

Valleys Rugby will be owned and controlled by the community it serves.

Valleys Rugby CBS will initially issue shares at £100 each. The shares will be “annual shares” and so need to be subscribed for once a year. Each shareholder, upon buying into Valleys Rugby, would be entitled to:-

Ability to vote and attend meetings of Valleys Rugby CBS;
Priority access to tickets and discounts on match tickets;
Ability to vote on the Board of Directors of Valleys Rugby and alter the executive structure of Valleys Rugby as required by its supporters;
Club magazine;
Discount in the club shop;
Ticket lottery;
Card and Share Certificate, certifying membership (which, if this is linked correctly with the regional businesses, could entitle an owner to discount in local shops in the community for example);
We will target a subscription by 10,000 fans at £100 per person – and using this model have an ability to raise £1,000,000 per annum from the owners of Valleys Rugby CBS.

It is important to note that anyone can subscribe for shares in Valleys Rugby CBS and support the establishment of a top-flight rugby team for the Valleys. Membership will be open to supporters from across Wales and the World.

This subscription and ownership will provide Valleys Rugby CBS with the equivalent of a rugby benefactor.

Fundraising - Clubs

As outlined in the Legal Structure section, Valleys Rugby CBS would own at least 60% of Valleys Rugby Limited.

The remaining balance would be owned by a combination of Affiliated Clubs, the WRU, Local Authorities and other interested parties.

A participation and subscription agreement will govern this ownership. The method and make-up of this element is subject to further investigation and discussion with the WRU and affiliated clubs.

It is envisaged that this element of ownership will also attract revenue into Valleys Rugby on an annual basis. However, if there is insufficient interest, the percentage of Valleys Rugby Limited owned by Valleys Rugby CBS would be increased and further shares made available to public ownership.

Early thoughts include a three tiered scale of club membership along the following lines:-

Junior Club Member - £500 pa;
Senior Club Member - £1,000 pa;
Senior Club Hosting Valleys Rugby Matches - £10,000 pa.
Commercial Sponsors

The commercial activities of Valleys Rugby Commercial Limited are also clearly key to the proposal as sponsorship, ticket sales, TV payments etc will make up the remainder of the balance sheet of Valleys Rugby.

Valleys Rugby will seek a minimum of £300,000 sponsorship per annum and believes the business community would be willing to support this as a venture.

Valleys Rugby at present cannot take full commitment from any sponsors as the concept has not been approved by the WRU. Until such approval takes place formal sponsorship and other commitments cannot be advanced.

However, in a show of support, Valleys Rugby has achieved an indication of sponsorship of £250,000 over a 3 year period from Heads of the Valleys Developments. Letters of support have been received from the following businesses:-

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
The ability to progress this element in detail is difficult unless and until the WRU indicates that it would be willing to support Valleys Rugby being developed as a concept. If this backing can be indicated it is believed that significant sponsorship opportunities can be progressed.

WRU Support

Valleys Rugby would require the support of the WRU to develop its Region, infrastructure and players.

The level of support can be discussed and agreed and will vary depending upon which areas the WRU would want Valleys Rugby to focus and develop.

The current business proposal is predicated on annual “match funding” to be provided by the WRU which would require that the WRU provide funding to Valleys Rugby at a level broadly in line with the members funding provided to Valleys Rugby.

On this basis, Valleys Rugby would seek a minimum of £1,200,000 annual funding from the WRU (via television and other rights) but would not request more than £1,500,000 from the WRU in any year, unless specifically agreed otherwise in partnership with the WRU. Any additional funding agreed would relate to player development funding if required.

This match funding structure would provide a unique partnership between the WRU, the supporters of Valleys Rugby and the traditional rugby clubs affiliated with Valleys Rugby.

If the WRU were keen for Valleys Rugby to assist with the development of professional rugby in North Wales, then Valleys Rugby would also seek the assistance of the WRU in raising any sporting or other grants available to it for the development of rugby in North Wales.

Operating Profit & Loss

A draft operating Profit & Loss can be found within the Business Plan document. It is based on assumptions that are believed to be realistic and shows a break even figure after receipt of £1,000,000 per annum from supporter subscription and £700,000 from the Welsh Rugby Union as Valleys Rugby's share of TV rights, etc.

This loss is prior to any publicly raised funds, club funds or WRU funding. Therefore, the funding structure proposed will cover this shortfall and potentially provides an element of contingency funding.

Sponsorship

We would welcome the support of any persons, organisations or companies who wish to invest in a new community-led model for Welsh Rugby.

Valleys Rugby has already secured the support of twenty commercial sponsors including:

Heads of the Valleys Developments;
Acorn Recruitment;
Berry Smith LLP;
COS Group Limited;
Natural Power Wales;
Bluegg Creative;
HJBW Law;
SRB Legal;
Seer Green;
Nathan James Estate Agents;
Yolk Recruitment;
Skogstad UK;
Edwards Coaches.
For example, Heads of the Valleys Developments Ltd has already pledged a sum of £250,000.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:wouldn't i be better just to tidy up the regions we have?

Pieman and Gallagher wouldnt have any of it

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I doubt there'll be a massive restructuring of the regions any time soon, but we'll have to wait and see what this independent review concludes.

Most likely the Blues and Ospreys will be given a heftier cut of the money, and te SCarlets/Dragons will be given a bit less. I say this as the Blues and Ospreys seem to have been hit worst by the player drain into France/Eng/Scotland and the Salary cap, whereas the Scarlets and Dragons have been doing the better job of surviving with less spare cash.

But why should the regions who are worst at balancing the books and living within their means be rewarded for their profligacy?

Luckless - its not what I would do by what I see happening. The money going to those who won't survive without it, as opposed to those who have survived without it.

Steffan - To be honest I can't really see why any Welshman wouldn't want to see the regions being tidied up, with clear boundaries etc.

Can I ask is this about creating a "Valleys Team" or about closing down/bankrupting the existing teams ? Is professional level rugby able to exist in Wales without a team in Cardiff?

Irish Londoner wrote:Is professional level rugby able to exist in Wales without a team in Cardiff?

Welsh rugby would be better off with no Cardiff team. All they did under the old club system was steal players from other teams for more money and since getting Superclub status they have just played a bunch of overated foreigners

No one knows, that's the truth of it. An independent review into the regions is due to be published soon and all we can do is speculate about what the findings will be - or more importantly, how the WRU will choose to interpret them.

http://www.newportgwentdragons.com/newsarticle.aspx?n=21106

thats very pro newport luckless or thats the way i read it, would prefer a business plan for embracing the whole of Gwent

I wouldn't say it's particularly pro-Newport, Gavin.

“Rodney Parade is a key venue, not just for regional rugby but for the business community of Newport and beyond,” said Brown. In our first 9 months, we have hosted some of the biggest companies operating in the area and we will look to further expand this side of our business going forward.”

You'd have to ask Chris Brown what he means by 'in the area'.

yeh perhaps im over analysing things, i wonder when details will be released?

Who knows. I suppose it's a good thing that we've got all the facts and figures to hand if the WRU ask for them.

I want this independent review published now so we can hear what the WRU are going to do and we know where we stand. I hate having this doubt hanging over us.

Steffan wrote:Welsh rugby would be better off with no Cardiff team. All they did under the old club system was steal players from other teams for more money and since getting Superclub status they have just played a bunch of overated foreigners

Forgot about Nugget, Gethin, Warbs, Bradley, Jamie, Cuthbert & Halfpenny have you? All developed by the blues (we'll claim Nugger & Gethin because they came in to their own after being with us for a few years, so chalk that up for the blues and not ponty ).

BTW, are you a pontypridd fan or from another disenfranchised valley team?

Steffan - I thinkit is just interesting to know what team someone follows in order to gauge and understand their opinion. I must be honest I would be interested to know what team you followed too.

Don't you think that is a step over the mark? You will not be honest about who you support, or even if you do actually follow rugby union, however you can throw disrespectful comments out at people for being honest about who the follow, and their opinions clearly and without personal insults.

Players develope at different rates etc. How many people would claim Iestyn Thomas is not a Scarlet and that he is actually a Ebbw Vale boy? Yet thats the same thing.

your gunna get a telling off steffan, although i agree his post was ridiculous

Apologies

martyn williams was well establised as a ponty product as was jenkins, they nabbed halfpenny from the ospreys and bought cuthbert in from the sevens circuit and both had success immediately...

they aint called chequebookcharlies for no reason

its why they are going to struggle for the next couple of seasons they have neglected their academy players for too long

GavinDragon wrote:martyn williams was well establised as a ponty product as was jenkins, they nabbed halfpenny from the ospreys and bought cuthbert in from the sevens circuit and both had success immediately...

they aint called chequebookcharlies for no reason

its why they are going to struggle for the next couple of seasons they have neglected their academy players for too long

Exactly

GavinDragon wrote:martyn williams was well establised as a ponty product as was jenkins, they nabbed halfpenny from the ospreys and bought cuthbert in from the sevens circuit and both had success immediately...

they aint called chequebookcharlies for no reason

its why they are going to struggle for the next couple of seasons they have neglected their academy players for too long

Yet as much as I'm a Cardiff-hating Man of Gwent, in their recent game against Neath Ponty fielded 2 Cardiff players and a further 4 developed to some extent by the Blues/Cardiff RFC.

Only in Wales...

haha who were they?

glamorganalun wrote:The Dragons need to look at themselves to analyse what they have achieved and where they are going. Just some of the points brought up by Carartelli are valid, crowds going down from a low base, no longer in the HC, even in the Amlin they can't compete, their international players are hardly locals, best players are leaving as soon as their contracts are up, the Blues main sponsor is a Newport based company, the pitch is not flat as seen when it rains, no under soil heating resulting in games being postponed or played elsewhere but other than that the Dragons are a great success!

I can't see how this region can succeed with the present management and structure, these franchises should be put out to tender by the WRU to see what proposals come it for the good of regional rugby and Welsh rugby.

What are valid points exactly?

Crowds going down from the 4th best in the UK was his first point - largely because the Dragons only own half their operation (thanks to who again...?)
International players are hardly locals! Lloyd Burns, Toby Faletau and Dan Lydiate are all local products and Clarteris has been here since before regions!
The Dragons main sponsor is a Newport-based company (not that it matters one iota) and have been for many seasons.

The problem here is some people just will not see the wood for the trees. You for example like Casartelli have been banging the same drum for nigh on 10 years without noting anything positive achieved in that time. The Grand Slam, for example, subsidised by the very regional supporters you criticise while the 'disenfranshised' are too busy wailing and gnashing their teeth...

The price we paid for that little trophy in the cabinet is the failure of the regions to compete in Europe.

GavinDragon wrote:martyn williams was well establised as a ponty product as was jenkins

The fact remains that both came to the blues, well nugget 3/4 years before, and developed in to world class players. you cannot deny that. They are a product of the blues region because that is where they developed into world class players. If joe blogs played 2 seasons for pontypool and then goes on to be a world class player who plays for, say, Exeter...is he a pontypool 'product' or a 'product' of exeter as that's where he developed?

GavinDragon wrote:They nabbed halfpenny from the ospreys

He was let go by the Osprey's for 'being too small'. We saw potential and brought him in to our academy, so i hardly call that nabbing. If anything, we should be commended for taking on a player another region let go.

GavinDragon wrote:and bought cuthbert in from the sevens circuit and both had success immediately...

Cuthbert was playing for Cardiff RFC and wales 7's actually.

I would also want to know what Steffan said, getting a bit heated under the collar are we?

yep totally agree

GavinDragon wrote:martyn williams was well establised as a ponty product as was jenkins, they nabbed halfpenny from the ospreys and bought cuthbert in from the sevens circuit and both had success immediately...

they aint called chequebookcharlies for no reason

its why they are going to struggle for the next couple of seasons they have neglected their academy players for too long

To be fair 1/2p was released by the Ospreys and the Blues signed him so can't really say they nabbed him!!

id argue that nugget and williams developed more from being involved in an ever improving and competitive welsh set-up personally,

you can certainly take credit for taking halfpenny on, however the dragons can take credit for taking on brew but hes still not a dragons developed player,

how many games did cuthbert play for cardiff? and he too was nabbed from where? gloucester. you can make the argument that faletau was spotted at filton college but hes still a gwent lad and was brought into the academy at a young age

face it aside from roberts and warburton (notable players dont get me wrong) who was the last cardiff regular to come through your system?

Gavin - Warburton came grom Glamorgan Warriors I believe. To be honest there are a heap of players at all of the regions that started off outside of that region. From my point of view it is the region that first really gives them a chance, and regular first team game time that developed the player. So I would class Martyn Thomas, Hugh Gustafson, and Wayne Evans as Dragons products and not try and argue that the Scarlets developed them. Well unless I was in a joking argumentative mood.

GavinDragon wrote:how many games did cuthbert play for cardiff? and he too was nabbed from where? gloucester.

He went to uni at UWIC and started playing for the cardiff side then...

GavinDragon wrote:face it aside from roberts and warburton (notable players dont get me wrong) who was the last cardiff regular to come through your system?

Bradley Davies
Chris Czekaj (unfortunately)
Tom James
Lloyd Williams
Scott Andrews ( )

And then you have players who have played more this year than they have done before in Navidi, Sam Hobbs, James Down (would have definitely been more had he not been injured against Racing Metro), Cory Hill and even Luke Hamilton on the weekend.

We have not been the best in utilising our academy but then again i feel we're only really starting to see the rewards of our academy with the players coming in. But the case is that PT has the money and he will throw it wherever he wants - which is not really an option anymore. Would i like a welsh fly half from the region given the chance? Of course. Would PT? Maybe not. It's why i have high hopes for Luke Hamilton, we're desparately in need of another number 8 and he's in a similar mould to Rushy. Hopefully he gets more game time next year as well as the others i have mentioned

And i would argue that Brew is a dragon's developed player, because when he was at the O's and the Blues he was horrendous. It was only when he went to the dragons that he actually starting pulling his game together somewhat and i can only say that is because of the Dragons. So i would say he's a dragon's product.

Luke Hamilton? Is Pembroke in the Blues region?

He's in our academy, does it matter where he's from? Again, halfpenny is from Swansea but came through the blues academy...does that matter?

ok fair point(s) but i agree with SS re the team who gives the player first team experience so there is no way you can claim nugget and jenkins have developed more at cardiff as they were already international level at ponty

Luke Hamilton was part of the Scarlets set up and Academy.

He has played for Coleg Sir Gar, Llanelli and Wales.

A Blue through and through then!!!

Going sideways - Do players get paid to be in an academy? Because i wonder why/how you can switch from one academy to another like he has done?

gc - I was yanking your chain boss. I wouldn't really class Hamilton as anything other than Blues. Hamilton is a local lad, and I must be honest I really only heard about him as being at Cardiff and at the Blues.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:gc - I was yanking your chain boss. I wouldn't really class Hamilton as anything other than Blues. Hamilton is a local lad, and I must be honest I really only heard about him as being at Cardiff and at the Blues.

I must say though, I thought Hamilton had a stormer on Sunday and looks a real prospect, although he needs to bulk up a bit, and even though it was an under strength Edinburgh side you can only play what is in front of you.

Hamilton was better the week before that though, under massive pressure at the scrum and still outplayed both back row partners!!

Steffan you need to release the chip, it's weighing you down!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:gc - I was yanking your chain boss. I wouldn't really class Hamilton as anything other than Blues. Hamilton is a local lad, and I must be honest I really only heard about him as being at Cardiff and at the Blues.

He does need to play more next season and phase rushy out as i believe LH is in a similar vein to Xav. He could really grow in to a fine number 8. With Rush, maybe see if we can get him in a coaching/ambassador capacity. He has a child and is settled, i think he would stay with us if we offered him the right deal.

Oh and

Steffan wrote:Apologies

Apology accepted, even though i didn't see what you said

The only way valleys rugby would work is by knocking the blues on the head.

Here's why

Cardiff fans are "disenfranchised" and are boycotting their own team - I think the WRU should call their bluff and knock it on the head. It's just not working.

Invest in Os, Scarlett's and persuade dragons to drop the Newport bit by offering them more money. These become the three main regions.

Enter the BVCs - Blue Valley Commandos (or some other snappy name), a real development region that's duty bound to play in CAP, SArdis and other grounds that can host. Play in the Amin. No NWQ allowed, no passed it has beens to make them competitive. Get a sense of underdog from the off. Build a team of youngsters who want to play for each other. The pay off for them would be a lucrative deal with the full pro region.

The worst thing that could happen is the creation of a Vally team that plays in black and white mainly at Sardis Road. We'd be back to square one!!! Remove th politics, remove the benefactor. Remove the ponty, Cardiff fan debate.

In fact the region should be owned by the WRU with full control. Play in MS, it's "free".

What about moving Ospreys to Neath ?

If my geography is correct it moves them further away from LLanelli and thus gives a better geographical spread.
It centers the team in a non football location
It means games will be played at a real rugby ground not a souless identikit soccer ground

Allied to the ditching of Cardiff and move to Vallleys idea it would mean rugby is not competing against soccer, at least directly.

slartibartfast wrote:Cardiff fans are "disenfranchised" and are boycotting their own team - I think the WRU should call their bluff and knock it on the head.

There is a logic to this, but by creating a Valleys region, wouldn't the WRU be rewarding rugby fans there for boycotting 'their' regional side, the Blues?

What I'm worried we'll see is the Blues getting more money at the Dragons' expense. That might sound like selfish coming from a Dragons fan, but the Blues have dug their own hole and another region - one that's balanced its books - shouldn't pay for lifting them out of it.

geoff998rugby wrote:What about moving Ospreys to Neath ?

If my geography is correct it moves them further away from LLanelli and thus gives a better geographical spread.
It centers the team in a non football location
It means games will be played at a real rugby ground not a souless identikit soccer ground

Allied to the ditching of Cardiff and move to Vallleys idea it would mean rugby is not competing against soccer, at least directly.

You could use that arguement to base the region at Neath and Bridgend the problem being you move the region away from the biggest population base, and would (in Neaths case) almost definately not be endorsed by Cuddy after the arguments between Cuddy and Neath and Neath removing themselves from the Ospreys region.

If it did happen though Maesteg would be firmly in the Ospreys region, and would remove another 2 'rugby hotbed' from the proposed Valleys region (Neath and Maesteg as well as Ebbw)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:Cardiff fans are "disenfranchised" and are boycotting their own team - I think the WRU should call their bluff and knock it on the head.

There is a logic to this, but by creating a Valleys region, wouldn't the WRU be rewarding rugby fans there for boycotting 'their' regional side, the Blues?

What I'm worried we'll see is the Blues getting more money at the Dragons' expense. That might sound like selfish coming from a Dragons fan, but the Blues have dug their own hole and another region - one that's balanced its books - shouldn't pay for lifting them out of it.

If Blues were a region then I'd agree. But they're not , it's a Cardiff super club that they're own supporters aren't happy with. Seems the obvious candidate for reorganising.

I feel the dragons have the capability to become a true region - the only way to show this would be to play a big game Or two "up there".

Create and Valleys team called Ponty (choose a colour), play in Ponty and say to all the Cardiff folk "this is your region come and support it, its got over a 100 years of history".

What am I saying?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:What about moving Ospreys to Neath ?

If my geography is correct it moves them further away from LLanelli and thus gives a better geographical spread.
It centers the team in a non football location
It means games will be played at a real rugby ground not a souless identikit soccer ground

Allied to the ditching of Cardiff and move to Vallleys idea it would mean rugby is not competing against soccer, at least directly.

You could use that arguement to base the region at Neath and Bridgend the problem being you move the region away from the biggest population base, and would (in Neaths case) almost definately not be endorsed by Cuddy after the arguments between Cuddy and Neath and Neath removing themselves from the Ospreys region.

If it did happen though Maesteg would be firmly in the Ospreys region, and would remove another 2 'rugby hotbed' from the proposed Valleys region (Neath and Maesteg as well as Ebbw)

Yes Swansea is the biggest population base but not the biggest 'rugby supporter population base'.

Swansea used to struggle to get 1,000 through the gate while Neath used to get many times that number.

That is, in part my point.

Swansea maybe a bigger population area but that doesn't translated into bigger crowds.

I reckon Neath, as a location, would welcome with open arms one of the regions based there. Swansea has voted with its feet and has decided soccer is its preferred sport - time to give someone else a go.

Don't know who Cuddy is, as Welsh rugby politics isn't my thing, but if he is in the way of the betterment of Welsh rugby - get rid

doctornickolas wrote:Create and Valleys team called Ponty (choose a colour), play in Ponty and say to all the Cardiff folk "this is your region come and support it, its got over a 100 years of history".

What am I saying?

Better still, merge all the regions into one, play in red, use the millennium stadium and name the team Wales

geoff998rugby wrote:Don't know who Cuddy is, as Welsh rugby politics isn't my thing, but if he is in the way of the betterment of Welsh rugby - get rid

He is the bloke who has bankrolled the Ospreys (like the pieman with the Blues), and to be honest IMO he is probably the biggest problem the region have. That said unless they can find another loaded business man who is willing to pile int he pounds I think they are stuck with him.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Don't know who Cuddy is, as Welsh rugby politics isn't my thing, but if he is in the way of the betterment of Welsh rugby - get rid

He is the bloke who has bankrolled the Ospreys (like the pieman with the Blues), and to be honest IMO he is probably the biggest problem the region have. That said unless they can find another loaded business man who is willing to pile int he pounds I think they are stuck with him.

And that I think is the problem - everyone keeps moaning about the way the regions are run, or saying we should get rid of/disband/rebrand/merge this or that region or get them to do this or that but these directors are the people who have put millions of money into the regions and unless another sugar daddy comes along willing to not only pour another few millions in to a region, but also pay off the current directors (be it Peter Thomas, Cuddy or one of the others) then I can't see anyone getting these directors to do anything, certainly you can't force them - they'll change if there a strong business case but that's about it. And they are the ones keeping regional rugby afloat at the minute, along with the WRU

geoff998rugby wrote:Don't know who Cuddy is, as Welsh rugby politics isn't my thing, but if he is in the way of the betterment of Welsh rugby - get rid

Geoff - Cuddy owns the Ospreys, has bankrolled them since the start, gave them the money to build a very strong and very big squad of players. He also had a pretty major falling out with Neath RFC leading to Neath effectively leaving the Ospreys region and Cuddy investing in Bridgend RFC, building them up and improving the ground (and rumours have it looking to invest in a new stadium in Bridgend) and the reason the Ospreys played some LV games in the Brewery.

He's a pretty big reason why I doubt the Ospreys would move to Neath

But is regional rugby staying afloat ?

With the exception of Scarlets, from the outside, it looks like a spiral of decline.

To be honest even Scottish regional rugby looks in better shape than Welsh regional rugby.